Years Later Fallout 3, Oblivion, Still Dominate ( Games that make you think )

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Ragingbear505

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#51 Ragingbear505
Member since 2008 • 819 Posts

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]

People hated Morrowind because of its awful combat engine, good thing Oblivion fixed that.

glez13

People hated it for being a RPG, when they wanted a action RPG.

The most common complaint was that character skill determined the ability of the player to successfuly hit someonething, not player skill. They wanted it to be more like a FPS/Action game, where physical contact creates a hit.

This exactly. The first person view created an immersion and then when the combat started you slash away with your sword and nothing happens, the enemy evaded. Okay the game is open ended maybe this is to high level, I go to another place and the same thing out of like 10 slashes like 4 miss. Okay maybe I have to suck it up and level up a bit, I level up while sucking up evasions over evasions then I realize after a while that I have leveled a few levels and that the hit to evade ratio is still ridiculous. I stopped playing there. Tried two more separate times finish the game and I still couldn't handle it. The overused evasions ruined the combat for many. Even the inferior Oblivion is more playable and addictive to many of us because of this.



I'm going to throw in my two cents and say that the combat in Morrowind was far superior to Oblivion. I just don't think many people understood it because it's actually really quite easy to master. The first time I played Morrowind I had no idea what to do, followed my journal, and got my ass kicked and was frustrated when my attacks didn't land. I went into it expecting an action game. So I went into gamer mode, started reading the stats of weapons, and looked for exploits in the system. The reality of Morrowind is combat is made very easy by determining how you're going to fight. You should always be raising strength and agility (speed only factors into character movement, unless it also factors into attack speed and I've got it backwards?) as they increase your damage and the speed at which you attack. There's two options early on. Use a small fast weapon like a short sword that can attack rapidly thus increasingly your chance of hitting, or use a large slow weapon like a claymore and use charge attacks, you won't hit as much but when you do you'll take away a considerable portion of health. Then to get started, pick a guild that matches your archetype. For example as a fighter I have the choice of House Redoran, Imperial Legion, or Fights Guild. I go to the Fighters Guild and I do quests until I find one that is too hard with my skills. I then go to House Redoran and go through them, though usually by that time your weapon skills should be pushing 80 and you'll rarely miss. At that point intermediate weapons become a good option though if you know what you're doing they shouldn't be an issue in the first place. Of course if you still can't be succesful, let the Dark Brotherhood attack you, go to Mournhold, get the Bi-Polar Blade from a very easy quest that requires no combat, one of the best swords in the game, can be sold for I think like 60k at the museum, and own.

The combat in Oblivion was too boring and even more exploitable. The enemy AI was too predictable, you can easily find patterns to make combat simple, it wasn't as all immersive and action packed as it was supposed to be and combined with the other systems of Oblivion was a massive fail.

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Remmib

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#52 Remmib
Member since 2010 • 2250 Posts

[QUOTE="Remmib"]Oblivion? Let down of the century. The game was a joke compared to it's predecessor. Fallout 3? So very meh.Mozelleple112
Oblivion was better than Morrowind in every way :?

False.

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Kickinurass

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#53 Kickinurass
Member since 2005 • 3357 Posts

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]

People hated Morrowind because of its awful combat engine, good thing Oblivion fixed that.

AnnoyedDragon

People hated it for being a RPG, when they wanted a action RPG.

The most common complaint was that character skill determined the ability of the player to successfuly hit someonething, not player skill. They wanted it to be more like a FPS/Action game, where physical contact creates a hit.

I don't think expecting a 2 foot blade, that you're swinging at a person directly in front of you, who is making no attempt at all to dodge your strikes, it's too much to ask.

Morrowind's combat as garbage, even by RPG standards. It has nothing to do with it being skill based, so much as it was pure immersion breaking. I shouldn't miss 5 times with a broad axe if I'm that close to someone.

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Vaasman

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#54 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 15874 Posts

Having sunk many hours into Oblivion, I can safely say that it is not a game that makes you think. Specialization is punished, enemies all use pretty much the same ai, the main story is laughable, all the dungeons are predictable clones of eachother, amoung other things. There is very little actual depth to any of it.

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Remmib

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#55 Remmib
Member since 2010 • 2250 Posts

[QUOTE="AnnoyedDragon"]

[QUOTE="tomarlyn"]

People hated Morrowind because of its awful combat engine, good thing Oblivion fixed that.

Kickinurass

People hated it for being a RPG, when they wanted a action RPG.

The most common complaint was that character skill determined the ability of the player to successfuly hit someonething, not player skill. They wanted it to be more like a FPS/Action game, where physical contact creates a hit.

I don't think expecting a 2 foot blade, that you're swinging at a person directly in front of you, who is making no attempt at all to dodge your strikes, it's too much to ask.

Morrowind's combat as garbage, even by RPG standards. It has nothing to do with it being skill based, so much as it was pure immersion breaking. I shouldn't miss 5 times with a broad axe if I'm that close to someone.

The combat is based on dice rolls. Just like many RPGs before it.

Is this so difficult to understand? :roll:

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timmy00

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#56 timmy00
Member since 2006 • 15360 Posts

Those are some of the best games I've played this gen. :)

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AnnoyedDragon

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#57 AnnoyedDragon
Member since 2006 • 9948 Posts

The combat is based on dice rolls. Just like many RPGs before it.

Is this so difficult to understand? :roll:

Remmib

I don't think today's gamers really appreciate character skill driven game play, everything is a action fest today, even the RPGs.

Games like Fallout 1/2, Torment and Arcanum would probably bore them to death. They'd rage every time they try to attack, but their character misses based on skill and environmental calculations.

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Aku101

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#58 Aku101
Member since 2009 • 2114 Posts

Fallout 3 is terrible compared to New Vegas.

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Kickinurass

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#59 Kickinurass
Member since 2005 • 3357 Posts

The combat is based on dice rolls. Just like many RPGs before it.

Is this so difficult to understand? :roll:

Remmib

I didn't say I didn't understand it. I just said it sucks, at least in the Elder Scrolls. Dice rolls work fine for something like Age of Decadence, or KoToR. Because those guys decided they would put in the time to make it seem fluid and believable. If I attack someone in AoD, they'll flinch if I hit them. If I miss, I see them move out of the way. KotoR is the same way. Everything is one the same page - I see what happens as the game describes it.

Bethesda doesn't want to animate dodge and parry animations. So what happens is you get the image of an axe simply going through your enemy's chest, and then having the game tell you that you missed. It's a disconnect - visually I see myself my contact but internally the game decides I haven't because of some dice roll.

It's annoying and stupid. And as I said before, immersion breaking to say the least. As someone who practices with swords, staffs, and nunchuks, it's jarring to say the least.

Oblivion's combat was far from perfect itself, but that fact that it incorporated realistic hit detection is a step in the right direction.

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Barbariser

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#60 Barbariser
Member since 2009 • 6785 Posts

How ironic. You promote "thinking" and then you go and say that Fallout 3 is better than New Vegas (it's not, for a lot of very obvious reasons) because a bunch of reviewers said so.

Oh, and by the way, neither Oblivion nor Fallout 3 are "thinking games". In fact, I primarily noticed two things when playing them: Bethesda's lazy, and they think I'm stupid. They don't have anywhere near the depth for it, and neither of them can hold a candle to New Vegas on that aspect. The only reason I played either game AT ALL was because of the mod community. Otherwise they're just boring "RPG"s with big explorable game environments and infantile writing.

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Kickinurass

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#61 Kickinurass
Member since 2005 • 3357 Posts

[QUOTE="Remmib"]

The combat is based on dice rolls. Just like many RPGs before it.

Is this so difficult to understand? :roll:

AnnoyedDragon

I don't think today's gamers really appreciate character skill driven game play, everything is a action fest today, even the RPGs.

Games like Fallout 1/2, Torment and Arcanum would probably bore them to death. They'd rage every time they try to attack, but their character misses based on skill and environmental calculations.

Yeah, I actually tried to play Torment, but it bored me to tears. I didn't find the game as captivating as some people described, and I enjoy combat that feels exciting. I've practice martial arts for over a decade now,so I expect alot from a video game when it comes to combat. I can respect many different styles (As I've said before, I adored KoTor, Played Skies of Arcadia to death and eagerly await AoD) but in all honesty I prefer real-time combat. Dice roll and turn based combat are fine, but real-time combat is the closest representation of actual combat.

And honestly, most games have a sucky portrayal of combat. It's either clunky, as in the Witcher's case, oversimplistic as in Fable 3, or just plain horrible, as in Oblivion. Ironically, I think Mirror's Edge (Based on the demo) had an interesting basis for combat, in how it allowed one to combo and continue their momentum, allowing for added flexibility.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#62 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
.. I can't even qualify vanilla Oblivion as a real RPG.. Its more of a bad adventure game with pseduo rpg elements.
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Slimmin360

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#63 Slimmin360
Member since 2010 • 1933 Posts

How ironic. You promote "thinking" and then you go and say that Fallout 3 is better than New Vegas (it's not, for a lot of very obvious reasons) because a bunch of reviewers said so.

Oh, and by the way, neither Oblivion nor Fallout 3 are "thinking games". In fact, I primarily noticed two things when playing them: Bethesda's lazy, and they think I'm stupid. They don't have anywhere near the depth for it, and neither of them can hold a candle to New Vegas on that aspect. The only reason I played either game AT ALL was because of the mod community. Otherwise they're just boring "RPG"s with big explorable game environments and infantile writing.

Barbariser
WRONG... In Oblivion that " Big explorable game environment " is not only one of the best features of the game, but just exploring it on foot is enough to raise your athletics, agility and gain quite alot of loot in the process, while discovering tons of locations, some of which are not even on the map. It also makes you think and pay for various consequences, for example if you choose to be in the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood, very few people will want to even deal with you especially shopkeepers, same response if you choose to be a Vampire. I don't think Bethesda is lazy at all, the direct opposite actually, do you know how much time and detail it takes to make game worlds this big, and then including the musical score, the quest writing, the A.I., the actor casting and recordings ? that is why they are one of the few developers that spend 3 to 5 years on one title, they always tend to get it right the first time. Don't believe me go look at past game reviews, none of there games receive bad scores, because they take the time to perfect and test them under the same scrutiny as we all would. I'm sorry but i just think you either didn't play Oblivion or Fallout 3 or just didn't understand how to...otherwise you would not have made such statements.
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Slimmin360

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#64 Slimmin360
Member since 2010 • 1933 Posts
.. I can't even qualify vanilla Oblivion as a real RPG.. Its more of a bad adventure game with pseduo rpg elements.sSubZerOo
You know NOTHING of RPG's, and therefore i here bye dismiss you and your opinion.
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Fry60

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#66 Fry60
Member since 2011 • 55 Posts
I couldn't get into those two RPGs. For me the two highlight RPGs this gen were the first Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
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incuensuocha

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#67 incuensuocha
Member since 2009 • 1514 Posts

Yeah i know the die hard Fallout fans will praise the older games or Fallout:New Vegas, but reviews speak for themselves, and Fallout 3 is the highest rated Fallout game to date, like it or not.

I'm so sick and tired of game series like Gears, Halo, Killzone, Resistance and Call of Duty, thats all that ever comes out, just mindless run and gun shooters, yeah ok i know they sell, but what does that tell you about the mind set of young people today.

They would rather run around pressing a trigger, than put any thought into games like Fallout 3, Oblivion, Dragon Age and so on, and if thats the kind of message we send dev's then one day thats all we'll get is all FPS multiplayer shooters.

Not me, i refuse to buy them, i've played through Dragon Age for the 5th time, and restarted Oblivion and Fallout 3 recently for like the 25th time and i'll be buying Dragon Age 2 next week and enjoying that along with the other 2011 RPG releases.

Gothic 4, Hunter:The Demons Forge, Dungeon Siege 3, Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim.....ya' know games with quests, strategy, puzzle solving, games that make you think when you play, otherwise we're all just proving our parents right all these years by sitting in front of a game console running around shooting one another.

Been there, done WITH that....

Slimmin360
So it's all a maturity thing? I'm 35 and I think Fallout 3 is one of the most boring games I've ever played.
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millerlight89

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#68 millerlight89
Member since 2007 • 18658 Posts
Bethesda games and thinking do not belong in the same sentence.
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#69 clone01
Member since 2003 • 29843 Posts
[QUOTE="Remmib"]Oblivion? Let down of the century. The game was a joke compared to it's predecessor. Fallout 3? So very meh.Slimmin360
I don't have the time to give you a proper education in gaming, your opinion is therefore dismissed, back to school with you little boy.

How is his opinion any less relevant than yours?
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enterawesome

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#70 enterawesome
Member since 2009 • 9477 Posts
Fallout 3 and Oblivion are excellent, indeed. Din't like NV or DA though.