Do You Agree With Capital Punishment?

I am totally against it.

Not because of the cost of it (like I have seen some people say in the forums when they are against it).

Let me dig out a post I had made where I listed the reasons why.

No, completely 100% against it. It is pointless, expensive and does not act as a deterrent to crimes, not to mention morally reprehensible.

Its expensive, doesn't work as a deterrent, and there's always the chance that an innocent person is killed.Bourbons3

I totally disagree with the death penalty, mainly because I don't think it's right for us to decide who lives and who dies (war and necessary conscription provide an interesting challenge to my philosophy, but that's another issue). I just don't believe that someone can deserve to die. However, if I were to lose a loved one to murder, I'm not sure how well I'd stick to that philosophy. Regardless, a distressed victim's personal feelings of distress and desire for revenge do not constitute valid arguments for the death penalty.

Aside from that, there are the usual practical reasons that have been mentioned above. It costs a metric buttload, it's not an effective deterrent, and an innnocent person might end up receiving the injection.

As a side note, I was totally thinking about making this same topic!

Oh, and many countries in Latin and South America and even Africa have illegalized the death penality. Why is the United States behind them?

No, I don't agree with it. Its expensive, doesn't work as a deterrent, and there's always the chance that an innocent person is killed.Bourbons3

Pretty much covers what I was going to say. If for no other reason, I oppose it because one single innocent person executed is one too many.

Btw...

....inb4 comment: "Its ypocritical how some people who are against the capital Punishement are also for-abortion :roll: "

I'm against capital punishment, as I just think that killing as a punishment and deterrent is pretty barbaric and primitive.

I'm all for harsh sentencing though. Personally I think murderers (only premeditated) should get life imprisonment, and I mean life. I hate it when I see it in the news that murderers and peadophiles get released after a measly sentence in jail hardly lasting a few decades. That truly makes me sick!

What's your stance? Lansdowne5

Btw...

....inb4 comment: "Its ypocritical how some people who are against the capital Punishement are also for-abortion :roll: "

Teenaged

If you believe all life should be preserved, then it starts with those that are the least innocent.

I'm all for capital punishment. Someone who takes a life should have his life taken away. It's justice.

I'm all for capital punishment. Someone who takes a life should have his life taken away. It's justice.

Genetic_Code

Doesn't that kinda go against killing being absolutely wrong?

Doesn't that kinda go against killing being absolutely wrong?

bean-with-bacon

Of course, but no logical man would not kill someone who was trying to kill him if it was the only way to stop the attacker. The better question is: is it murder? A murder is an unjustifiable killing. Killing someone as a means of preventing a murder or as a means of punishment is justified. 

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

Doesn't that kinda go against killing being absolutely wrong?

Genetic_Code

Of course, but no logical man would not kill someone who was trying to kill him if it was the only way to stop the attacker. The better question is: is it murder? A murder is an unjustifiable killing. Killing someone as a means of preventing a murder or as a means of punishment is justified. 

So you believe murder is absolutely wrong but not killing in general? What happens if you end up killing an innocent man? Should the executioner then be killed?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]What's your stance? THUMPTABLE

I'm in that "other" bracket. 

So you believe murder is absolutely wrong but not killing in general? What happens if you end up killing an innocent man? Should the executioner then be killed?

bean-with-bacon

Murder by definition is wrong. You first have to look at the intent of the executioner. Did he intend to kill an innocent man? If no, then he should not be killed. Should there be some punishment for making a mistake? I wouldn't know. I haven't deeply thought about that subject to have an informed opinion.

A murder is an unjustifiable killing.

Genetic_Code

That's quite right, actually. Simply killing another human being doesn't necessarily equate to it being murder -- something the OT makes very clear.

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

So you believe murder is absolutely wrong but not killing in general? What happens if you end up killing an innocent man? Should the executioner then be killed?

Genetic_Code

Murder by definition is wrong. You first have to look at the intent of the executioner. Did he intend to kill an innocent man? If no, then he should not be killed. Should there be some punishment for making a mistake? I wouldn't know. I haven't deeply thought about that subject to have an informed opinion.

So it's all about the mindset? I don't know, that doesn't sound very absolute to me, I mean what if the guy is insane and views the people he's killing as demons or something, it isn't his intention to murder an innocent and yet he has, is he a 'murderer' or a 'killer'?

So it's all about the mindset? I don't know, that doesn't sound very absolute to me, I mean what if the guy is insane and views the people he's killing as demons or something, it isn't his intention to murder an innocent and yet he has, is he a 'murderer' or a 'killer'?

bean-with-bacon

If a man wanted to murder another man, then he must be absolutely certain of that desire. Not halfway, as that represents only an attempt to desire, not necessarily a commitment.  

Again, I don't have an informed opinion, so I wouldn't want to make a wrong judgement based on a lack of cognition. 

[QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

So you believe murder is absolutely wrong but not killing in general? What happens if you end up killing an innocent man? Should the executioner then be killed?

Genetic_Code

Murder by definition is wrong. You first have to look at the intent of the executioner. Did he intend to kill an innocent man? If no, then he should not be killed. Should there be some punishment for making a mistake? I wouldn't know. I haven't deeply thought about that subject to have an informed opinion.

That you take the time to consider all of these factors and conditions when it comes to murder (in order to separate it from capital punishement and "prove" your point) and yet, you wont take into consideration factors and conditions which separate capital punishment from abortion.

It is, isnt it?

I'm all for capital punishment. Someone who takes a life should have his life taken away. It's justice.

Genetic_Code

That is, of course, assuming that of all the people who have ever been sent to death row, none were actually innocent of the crime for which they were charged.

(Hint: 135 people previously on death row have thus far been exonerated.)

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"][QUOTE="bean-with-bacon"]

So you believe murder is absolutely wrong but not killing in general? What happens if you end up killing an innocent man? Should the executioner then be killed?

Teenaged

Murder by definition is wrong. You first have to look at the intent of the executioner. Did he intend to kill an innocent man? If no, then he should not be killed. Should there be some punishment for making a mistake? I wouldn't know. I haven't deeply thought about that subject to have an informed opinion.

That you take the time to consider all of these factors and conditions when it comes to murder (in order to separate it from capital punishement and "prove" your point) and yet, you wont take into consideration factors and conditions which separate capital punishment from abortion.

It is, isnt it?

Yes, especially if your getting into the murky waters of 'intent', if murder is the intent to 'unjustifiably' kill a human then clearly abortion isn't murder if a person does not view a foetus as being human, thus the intent was not to murder and they are not a murderer.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

I'm all for capital punishment. Someone who takes a life should have his life taken away. It's justice.

GabuEx

That is, of course, assuming that of all the people who have ever been sent to death row, none were actually innocent of the crime for which they were charged.

(Hint: 135 people previously on death row have thus far been exonerated.)

Yes, that alone should be enough to abolish it once and for all, getting revenge (although some would rather call it 'justice') on all the murderers in the world is not worth the possible loss of even one innocent life.

How am I supposed to agree with capital punishment when I dont even recognize the legitimacy of the institution of the state :P

im a theist and I disagree with capital punishment.  

I am not totally against the death sentence, and I personally would prefer it to life in jail.

If it is completely certain that the person mass murdered people, I would most certainly give them the death sentence.

Well maybe I shouldn't say that, since I would never kill them myself, I shouldn't ask others to.

I don't have an opposition to the death penalty though, it is so rarely used here.

[QUOTE="Genetic_Code"]

I'm all for capital punishment. Someone who takes a life should have his life taken away. It's justice.

GabuEx

That is, of course, assuming that of all the people who have ever been sent to death row, none were actually innocent of the crime for which they were charged.

(Hint: 135 people previously on death row have thus far been exonerated.)

Not completely off-topic: Have you ever seen the movie The life of David Gale?ChiliDragon

Can't say I have.

[QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]Not completely off-topic: Have you ever seen the movie The life of David Gale?GabuEx

[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="ChiliDragon"]Not completely off-topic: Have you ever seen the movie The life of David Gale?ChiliDragon

Is that the one that parallels Socrates' trial and execution?

Is that the one that parallels Socrates' trial and execution?

domatron23

I'm against capital punishment. For the reasons that an innocent man could be killed and I find life in jail to be a better punishment. I'd imagine wasting your whole life being in jail possibly thinking about what you did to be rather horrible.

I'm against capital punishment. For the reasons that an innocent man could be killed and I find life in jail to be a better punishment. I'd imagine wasting your whole life being in jail possibly thinking about what you did to be rather horrible.

Dr_AlanGrant

Well, that line is one I've never really been very sure of.  I don't think a day has ever gone by on which Charles Manson actually felt any remorse for what he did.

Do you know whats another hypocritical thing?

That you take the time to consider all of these factors and conditions when it comes to murder (in order to separate it from capital punishement and "prove" your point) and yet, you wont take into consideration factors and conditions which separate capital punishment from abortion.

It is, isnt it?

Teenaged

I don't understand your point. There are plenty of accidents which result in a baby's death; they are miscarriages, but they are by no means an abortion. You and b-w-b are simply trying to find a loophole that could somehow blow the whole argument to pieces. Note to self: loophole doesn't exist.

That is, of course, assuming that of all the people who have ever been sent to death row, none were actually innocent of the crime for which they were charged.

(Hint: 135 people previously on death row have thus far been exonerated.)

GabuEx

Of course. One has to be absolutely certain that an individual is guilty of murder. I'm all for capital punishment if the responsible party is punished.

Even one death should be enough to make more careful considerations when condemning a man.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Do you know whats another hypocritical thing?

That you take the time to consider all of these factors and conditions when it comes to murder (in order to separate it from capital punishement and "prove" your point) and yet, you wont take into consideration factors and conditions which separate capital punishment from abortion.

It is, isnt it?

Genetic_Code

I don't understand your point. There are plenty of accidents which result in a baby's death; they are miscarriages, but they are by no means an abortion. You and b-w-b are simply trying to find a loophole that could somehow blow the whole argument to pieces. Note to self: loophole doesn't exist.

Capital Punishment is often considered as murder: you took the time to deploy your views on how it clearly (to you) isnt murder, based on arguments such as intention and whatnot; ie special factors and conditions in play that separate capital punishment from murder in order for capital punishment to be rid of its bad "image" and prove your point: that capital punishment is not inhuman.

Abortion is also often considered as murder: AND YET, no word about the special factors and conditions that are in play in the case of abortion: rape, financial difficulties to the point where it would be harmful even for the upbringing and welfare of the baby, immaturity of the mother, difficult proceedures of giving up ones baby for adoption and consequently very limited alternative choices (if there are any), abandoned by the father mothers without support (emotional or financial).

And the most important: no mother wishes to kill her baby. They are not doing it out of cruelty, nor out of non-forced choice.

While in capital punishment it is about revenge. Care to compare the feelings between the two? Because I saw you were debating intentions aka feelings while doing each.

And in case you want to debate my statement that Capital punishment is for revenge or emotional satisfaction: it doesnt affect crime rates, not even close to what the extremeness of the measure should promise, and of course there is danger of sentencing an innocent person. And no, having DNA in our times does not make it much safer than it used to be, unless you would like to claim that the judicial/penalty system ofany country works perfectly and always catches the bad guys.

If the responisble party is the one being punished by death (in extreme crimes, of course), I'm certainly fine with the death penalty.

I would much rather have the person die than give them the possibility of escaping jail to murder others.

There is, of course, the barrier between which crimes should recieve capital punishment, and which should not.

One murder? Car or gun murder? Indirect murder? Mass-murder? Treason? Predetermined (insanity or no)? Financial Crimes (scams and other such businesses), and how severe was the scam? What did it cost from whom? What is reasonable to be punished with murder in return?

It depends, of course, on the exact situation.

On the other hand I can see a reason behind the "bias" of viewing abortion as something crueler than capital punishment.

Perhaps it has to do with the feelings the thought of a dead baby brings in contrast to a dead adult.

The baby is thought of (and is) innocent and unaware, thus feeling more compassion and sensitivity in the matter.

And no matter how stupid such phrases sound to some, they are the future of humanity and whatever wrong adults have done we always seek to mend it (or hope it will be healed) by the new generations; babies. I believe those thoughts do influence greatly ones feelings.

An adult though, is (representatively of adults in general) someone who we dont trust, or hope for him/her to change his/her feelings, probably because we pour all our emotions we have for other humans (in this case those would be the negative repressed feelings) into the person that is the scapegoat for that time: the prisoner who is sentenced to death. To him we can express all the hatred we have, all the sorrow and disappointment.

But in my opinion we should not forget that a person is not born one way or another.

We were all once babies. Either one believes in genes or environmental factors, the result is the same. What we become is highly influenced and regulated. And thats natural. And although to some that sounds ridiculous because it is against the notion of free will, well that depends on what one wants to call free will.

Bottomline is that, every single criminal in the world was once a baby that had all the innocent feelings a baby has, and what they became was not of their choosing. We cant let them out of prison because unfortunately they are now bearers of harmful behavior, but we dont have to treat them as if they were born like this or treat them like they are wasted humans beyond doubt.

Anyway, that was my own psychological analysis of the issue and I hope you wont bash me for it. :)

But in my opinion we should not forget that a person is not born one way or another.

We were all once babies. Either one believes in genes or environmental factors, the result is the same. What we become is highly influenced and regulated. And thats natural. And although to some that sounds ridiculous because it is against the notion of free will, well that depends on what one wants to call free will.

Bottomline is that, every single criminal in the world was once a baby that had all the innocent feelings a baby has, and what they became was not of their choosing. We cant let them out of prison because unfortunately they are now bearers of harmful behavior, but we dont have to treat them as if they were born like this or treat them like they are wasted humans beyond doubt.

Anyway, that was my own psychological analysis of the issue and I hope you wont bash me for it. :)

Teenaged

I agree, no one is born evil, or born good (to use those generalizations).

We are influenced by our experiences, and the experiences of those around us, whose experiences are influenced by those around THEM, an so on.

I am just saying that it is safer to give the death penalty than give a life prison sentence. And many who are sentenced for life never feel remorse anyways.

It aught to be cheaper to hold a simple execution, too.

im for capital punishment, but they need to sort it out...there's no need for it to cost so much, it'd be easy to kill those who don't deserve to live extremely cheaply...besides prison costs so much, if the governments off the world pulled there finger out and made the easy decision to get a cheap capital punishment system in we would be saving a hell of a lot of money and clearing out the prisons so there not so overcrowded for the less serious crime inmates.

on a slightly related subject we really need to take away some of the inmates privileges, my mums a prison officer, and the amount of things she sees the inmates with...aren't they in there to be punished? they may be less likely to become a repeat offender if prisons were actually what they should be.

im for capital punishment, but they need to sort it out...there's no need for it to cost so much, it'd be easy to kill those who don't deserve to live extremely cheaply...besides prison costs so much, if the governments off the world pulled there finger out and made the easy decision to get a cheap capital punishment system in we would be saving a hell of a lot of money and clearing out the prisons so there not so overcrowded for the less serious crime inmates.

Dr_Manfattan

Here's a question that must be asked, though: which is more important, executing one who is guilty, or ensuring that one who is innocent is not executed?

As I have already shown, 135 people thus far who were sentenced to death have been since found to have been wrongly convicted.  That's 135 innocent people who would now have been murdered by the government if the system of capital punishment had been streamlined.  I for one maintain that the possible execution of even one innocent person is an indefensible stain on capital punishment that renders it a completely untenable position in my view.

I agree, no one is born evil, or born good (to use those generalizations).

We are influenced by our experiences, and the experiences of those around us, whose experiences are influenced by those around THEM, an so on.

I am just saying that it is safer to give the death penalty than give a life prison sentence. And many who are sentenced for life never feel remorse anyways.

It aught to be cheaper to hold a simple execution, too.

itsTolkien_time

[QUOTE="Dr_AlanGrant"]

I'm against capital punishment. For the reasons that an innocent man could be killed and I find life in jail to be a better punishment. I'd imagine wasting your whole life being in jail possibly thinking about what you did to be rather horrible.

GabuEx

Well, that line is one I've never really been very sure of.  I don't think a day has ever gone by on which Charles Manson actually felt any remorse for what he did.

I do agree that most criminals probably doesn't regret their crimes but I'd think that some actually do. Even if they never regretted the crime, I'd still think it would be a better and somewhat worse punishment.  

[QUOTE="Dr_Manfattan"]

im for capital punishment, but they need to sort it out...there's no need for it to cost so much, it'd be easy to kill those who don't deserve to live extremely cheaply...besides prison costs so much, if the governments off the world pulled there finger out and made the easy decision to get a cheap capital punishment system in we would be saving a hell of a lot of money and clearing out the prisons so there not so overcrowded for the less serious crime inmates.

GabuEx

Here's a question that must be asked, though: which is more important, executing one who is guilty, or ensuring that one who is innocent is not executed?

As I have already shown, 135 people thus far who were sentenced to death have been since found to have been wrongly convicted.  That's 135 innocent people who would now have been murdered by the government if the system of capital punishment had been streamlined.  I for one maintain that the possible execution of even one innocent person is an indefensible stain on capital punishment that renders it a completely untenable position in my view.

well obviously you'd have to make sure 100% that the person in question was guilty, and if there was any doubt they would have to remain in prison. 

i stand by my argument against the whole "it's too expensive" seeing as it has no reason to be that expensive, i also still say that inmates have too much comfort in prisons.

well obviously you'd have to make sure 100% that the person in question was guilty, and if there was any doubt they would have to remain in prison.Dr_Manfattan

That would effectively abolish capital punishment. as 100% certainty is basically impossible.

[QUOTE="Dr_Manfattan"]well obviously you'd have to make sure 100% that the person in question was guilty, and if there was any doubt they would have to remain in prison.GabuEx

That would effectively abolish capital punishment. as 100% certainty is basically impossible.

well if you managed to get a confession...also if you got enough irrefutable evidence it could be seen as 100%.

im not saying " oh as long as there in prison just kill em" im saying that if a prisoner is seen to be 100% guilty then the death sentence should be put in place, and obviously you have to make sure that there not innocent.

and if we can't agree on this i think we're just going to have to accept that not everyone can see a situation in the same light.

 my preferred punishment for people guilty  of the big crimes, like multiple murders and rapes...you know the sort of thing...is to put them in a small room, with extremely limited resources, actually make them suffer for there crimes...yet some people would say that it's immoral to do such a thing...

well if you managed to get a confession...also if you got enough irrefutable evidence it could be seen as 100%.Dr_Manfattan

False confessions both can and have been extracted by overzealous police officers all through history. People can be and have been exonerated once it came to light that their "confession" came about through intimidation.

And there is no such thing as truly irrefutable evidence - only evidence that convinces someone of the accused's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

No I don't agree with it, as I value life on general principle. Those that place value on one life yet change that value for another depending on actions taken makes me question whether they value life at all. The actions of someone does not alter the value of that life. If you truly hold any reverence for life, it transcends all actions. Executing someone makes me physically ill, not because the criminal is being killed (they can rot in hell for all I care) but for the blatant display of complete disregard for life.

You either value life or you don't, it's that simple. I also don't support it because of innocents executed, yada yada......

*sigh*

This is why I'm against the death penalty

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/25/772133/-MAJOR-Death-Penalty-News-out-of-Texas

That is an innocent man who was sentenced to death.