Game Developers and Publishers need to be held accountable.

I do not know if it is just me or not but I do think a couple of things need to be adressed in the industry before it gets larger, as it surely will.

First, the whole legal jargon that comes with the use of a game. You should not need a lawyer to make sure you are playing the game correctly as the developer and pulisher designed. A short paragraph is all that is needed. Seems to work for credit card reform and credit cards are a heck of a lot more complex than video games.

Second, bad games. I am not talking about games that are rated 5 out of 10, but, the 1,2,3,4 out of 10. How does a developer NOT KNOW it is a bad game. If something doesnt work or not to my expectations I should get a refund, especially if the quality does not fit the cost. That is the reason I will always shop at Wal-Mart, Target and other stores that guarentee satisfaction. Some people might argure, "Well, this might put some developers out of business", GOOD! That is capitalism! Let the weak fall and the strong thrive, let the developers who actually strive for quality win and the losers, well, lose. This is a specially important issue for children. Children do not know how to do their research and parents buy their kids the game they want. By the time lil Susie opens up My Little Pony Sasha Revenge (fake) to find out the game is virtually unplayable it is too late to get her moms money back and support a developer who actually makes quality games.

Third, it seems that developers and publishershave more rights than the consumer, to me that is wrong. If my little brother sends a bad message to someone from my account then I get perma-banned AND all the content that I bought is gone. Can my telephone company take away my phone for sending a prank call? No, they can shut my service off it they want to but they still cannot take my phone. This also comes to the fact that a few times Xbox LIVE had been down for a considerable amount of time and even though I pay for it and cannot access it because of M$ problems I am still not considered for a partial refund or any form of apology (that one time I actually got a game, that ONE TIME).

Please critique my reasoning and supply any more changes you think need to be changed. I am not saying they need to be responcible in the type of games they make (GTA, Manhunt, ect.) but the quality of games and the rights of the consumer.

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

That is capitalism! Let the weak fall and the strong thrive, let the developers who actually strive for quality win and the losers, well, lose.

DvnDrgnXD

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

ImproveMind

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

[QUOTE="ImproveMind"]

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

Darth_Revan_666

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

Third, it seems that developers and publishershave more rights than the consumer, to me that is wrong. If my little brother sends a bad message to someone from my account then I get perma-banned AND all the content that I bought is gone. Can my telephone company take away my phone for sending a prank call? No, they can shut my service off it they want to but they still cannot take my phone. This also comes to the fact that a few times Xbox LIVE had been down for a considerable amount of time and even though I pay for it and cannot access it because of M$ problems I am still not considered for a partial refund or any form of apology (that one time I actually got a game, that ONE TIME).

DvnDrgnXD

Your analogy is completely wrong

1. It's your account, you're in charge of it. If you fail to do so you face whatever punishment is offered. If you have a bank account and someone gets access to it and spends all your money would you go to the bank and ask for all your money back because "I didn't do it?"

2. The phone company line is wrong. If you screw around with the phone they'll not only disconnect you but they'll also delete all your messages on their service, they just wont take your phone. If you screw around on Live they'll disconnect you and not let you access the service but you still keep the console.

3. Every single time Live has been down for "extended" period of time they've offered back something worth the time that was missed

So no, you're completely off base on the whole thing but since this is the 360 forum I thought I'd just focus on that

[QUOTE="ImproveMind"]

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

Darth_Revan_666

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

No, it's completely right

There is no excuse at all for someone failing to do research in this day and age

It's like walking onto a car dealership and getting a crappy car that doesn't do well in crash tests. If someone researched it they'd get a better car

Same exact thing with games

[QUOTE="Darth_Revan_666"]

[QUOTE="ImproveMind"]

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

Jaysonguy

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

No, it's completely right

There is no excuse at all for someone failing to do research in this day and age

It's like walking onto a car dealership and getting a crappy car that doesn't do well in crash tests. If someone researched it they'd get a better car

Same exact thing with games

People get screwed on Pre-order's though.

People get screwed on Pre-order's though.

Darth_Revan_666

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="Darth_Revan_666"]

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

Darth_Revan_666

No, it's completely right

There is no excuse at all for someone failing to do research in this day and age

It's like walking onto a car dealership and getting a crappy car that doesn't do well in crash tests. If someone researched it they'd get a better car

Same exact thing with games

People get screwed on Pre-order's though.

That's the risk they take though

Anything "pre" is a gamble

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

ImproveMind

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]

Third, it seems that developers and publishershave more rights than the consumer, to me that is wrong. If my little brother sends a bad message to someone from my account then I get perma-banned AND all the content that I bought is gone. Can my telephone company take away my phone for sending a prank call? No, they can shut my service off it they want to but they still cannot take my phone. This also comes to the fact that a few times Xbox LIVE had been down for a considerable amount of time and even though I pay for it and cannot access it because of M$ problems I am still not considered for a partial refund or any form of apology (that one time I actually got a game, that ONE TIME).

Your analogy is completely wrong

1. It's your account, you're in charge of it. If you fail to do so you face whatever punishment is offered. If you have a bank account and someone gets access to it and spends all your money would you go to the bank and ask for all your money back because "I didn't do it?"

2. The phone company line is wrong. If you screw around with the phone they'll not only disconnect you but they'll also delete all your messages on their service, they just wont take your phone. If you screw around on Live they'll disconnect you and not let you access the service but you still keep the console.

3. Every single time Live has been down for "extended" period of time they've offered back something worth the time that was missed

So no, you're completely off base on the whole thing but since this is the 360 forum I thought I'd just focus on that

[QUOTE="Darth_Revan_666"]

[QUOTE="ImproveMind"]

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

No, it's completely right

There is no excuse at all for someone failing to do research in this day and age

It's like walking onto a car dealership and getting a crappy car that doesn't do well in crash tests. If someone researched it they'd get a better car

Same exact thing with games

Except that automakers are held accountable..., all I am saying is that every other industry is held accountable, it seems the gaming industry is immune to accountability.DvnDrgnXD

No they're not, not all cars have the same crash test ratings or gas mileage or durability etc

No one forces all car companies to meet the same criteria

[QUOTE="ImproveMind"]

Buyer beware. You bought a bad game because you made the conscious decision to. Nobody forces a person to buy a bad game, and it is the buyer's fault if they do purchase it.

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]Except that automakers are held accountable..., all I am saying is that every other industry is held accountable, it seems the gaming industry is immune to accountability.Jaysonguy

No they're not, not all cars have the same crash test ratings or gas mileage or durability etc

No one forces all car companies to meet the same criteria

[QUOTE="ImproveMind"][QUOTE="Darth_Revan_666"]

Thats COMPLETELY non sensical. Nobody ever buy's a game thinking ''Im going to hate this game, but Im going to burn 60 $ on this anyway''. People get screwed, period.

DvnDrgnXD

When was the last time you saw a game that found to be unplayable and still called "hottest" game by a reviewer and then placed on a box?

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]Except that automakers are held accountable..., all I am saying is that every other industry is held accountable, it seems the gaming industry is immune to accountability.DvnDrgnXD

No they're not, not all cars have the same crash test ratings or gas mileage or durability etc

No one forces all car companies to meet the same criteria

Now you're talking apples and oranges

Car makers need to meet certain guidlines when making a car line, that's true

Game makers also need to meet certain guidelines when making a game

The guidelines for both are basic health and safety, nothing more.

Except that automakers are held accountable..., all I am saying is that every other industry is held accountable, it seems the gaming industry is immune to accountability.DvnDrgnXD

No they're not, not all cars have the same crash test ratings or gas mileage or durability etc

No one forces all car companies to meet the same criteria

And so based upon what everyone is saying, gamers should have no protection? One of the biggest industries of all time, unchecked? Unreasonable rules that you find out AFTER you open the game? Like the credit card companies...DvnDrgnXD

What rules do you find out after you open it?

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

No they're not, not all cars have the same crash test ratings or gas mileage or durability etc

No one forces all car companies to meet the same criteria

Now you're talking apples and oranges

Car makers need to meet certain guidlines when making a car line, that's true

Game makers also need to meet certain guidelines when making a game

The guidelines for both are basic health and safety, nothing more.

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]And so based upon what everyone is saying, gamers should have no protection? One of the biggest industries of all time, unchecked? Unreasonable rules that you find out AFTER you open the game? Like the credit card companies...Jaysonguy

What rules do you find out after you open it?

The Terms of Use that are located in the instruction manuel. They dictate what you are allowed to do and not allowed to do and if you dont agree with them you cant return the game but just count the money you spent as a loss. And every Terms of Use are different. And sometimes you may need a lawyer to decode it, lol.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"] Actually, the Federal Government does force automakers to meet the same criteria. Its up to the car company itself if it wants to exceed the minimum. And on top, almost all dealers will allow you to return a new car within 21 days (or sooner). Restricitions do apply (dont bring it back busted, lol).DvnDrgnXD

Now you're talking apples and oranges

Car makers need to meet certain guidlines when making a car line, that's true

Game makers also need to meet certain guidelines when making a game

The guidelines for both are basic health and safety, nothing more.

1. Any sort of mileage per gallon cannot be universal per vehicle, things like that are by fleets.

2. The fleet rules for now are 27 for passenger cars and 21 for light trucks, there will not be a jump to 35 in the next 3 years

3. There is no legislation whatsoever to control rent for normal healthy individuals. The only thing the government can interfere with is if a tenant is grandfathered in or if they try to raise someone's rent too high.

4. You still haven't explained any of your stances on games. Show me a game that has a positive review rating on it that's unplayable or explain to me how you don't know the rules until after you open the software

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]And so based upon what everyone is saying, gamers should have no protection? One of the biggest industries of all time, unchecked? Unreasonable rules that you find out AFTER you open the game? Like the credit card companies...DvnDrgnXD

What rules do you find out after you open it?

The Terms of Use that are located in the instruction manuel. They dictate what you are allowed to do and not allowed to do and if you dont agree with them you cant return the game but just count the money you spent as a loss. And every Terms of Use are different. And sometimes you may need a lawyer to decode it, lol.

Every single game publisher has a way to contact them to ask them their rules and regulations for software

If people choose not to go that route they're to blame

One unreasonable rule is that the license cannot be transferred, meaning you cant let your friend borrow the game, if you do and the publisher finds out you cvan be sued.DvnDrgnXD

Are we talking about a disc?

If you're talking about digital content then you can easily see the rules and regulations for the content you're interested in buying. If you don't agree to the terms you don't have to buy it.

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

Now you're talking apples and oranges

Car makers need to meet certain guidlines when making a car line, that's true

Game makers also need to meet certain guidelines when making a game

The guidelines for both are basic health and safety, nothing more.

Jaysonguy

1. Any sort of mileage per gallon cannot be universal per vehicle, things like that are by fleets.

2. The fleet rules for now are 27 for passenger cars and 21 for light trucks, there will not be a jump to 35 in the next 3 years

3. There is no legislation whatsoever to control rent for normal healthy individuals. The only thing the government can interfere with is if a tenant is grandfathered in or if they try to raise someone's rent too high.

4. You still haven't explained any of your stances on games. Show me a game that has a positive review rating on it that's unplayable or explain to me how you don't know the rules until after you open the software

I guess GS censors links?

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]One unreasonable rule is that the license cannot be transferred, meaning you cant let your friend borrow the game, if you do and the publisher finds out you cvan be sued.Jaysonguy

Are we talking about a disc?

If you're talking about digital content then you can easily see the rules and regulations for the content you're interested in buying. If you don't agree to the terms you don't have to buy it.

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

What rules do you find out after you open it?

Jaysonguy

The Terms of Use that are located in the instruction manuel. They dictate what you are allowed to do and not allowed to do and if you dont agree with them you cant return the game but just count the money you spent as a loss. And every Terms of Use are different. And sometimes you may need a lawyer to decode it, lol.

Every single game publisher has a way to contact them to ask them their rules and regulations for software

If people choose not to go that route they're to blame

woah this is a confusing threadstealthedhawk

TC, analogies really aren't your strong suit. They have all been horrible. Just stop

the only thing i can really agree on in that is the whole "how does a developer not know their game is bad?" part, aside from that i cant really agree on much of what you said, i mean sure a little kid cant research their games but if i ever have a child im not just gonna waste my money on games that i dont know about, i will always research 'My Little Pony: princess party'(fake) before buyig it

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"]Except that automakers are held accountable..., all I am saying is that every other industry is held accountable, it seems the gaming industry is immune to accountability.DvnDrgnXD

No they're not, not all cars have the same crash test ratings or gas mileage or durability etc

No one forces all car companies to meet the same criteria

1) Not even sure what the hell you are talking about with that first thing... seriously

2) Read reviews/do research before buying games, don't buy games recklessly, that's your own fault

3) Don't let your little brother use your account if he might send bad messages. They aren't going to let users abuse other users, because that opens them up for lawsuits. You are responsible for your account, it's a previledge, not a right, get over it.

First, the whole legal jargon that comes with the use of a game. You should not need a lawyer to make sure you are playing the game correctly as the developer and pulisher designed. A short paragraph is all that is needed. Seems to work for credit card reform and credit cards are a heck of a lot more complex than video gamesDvnDrgnXD

What the hell are you talking about?

Second, bad games. I am not talking about games that are rated 5 out of 10, but, the 1,2,3,4 out of 10. How does a developer NOT KNOW it is a bad game. If something doesnt work or not to my expectations I should get a refund, especially if the quality does not fit the cost. That is the reason I will always shop at Wal-Mart, Target and other stores that guarentee satisfaction. Some people might argure, "Well, this might put some developers out of business", GOOD! That is capitalism! Let the weak fall and the strong thrive, let the developers who actually strive for quality win and the losers, well, lose. This is a specially important issue for children. Children do not know how to do their research and parents buy their kids the game they want. By the time lil Susie opens up My Little Pony Sasha Revenge (fake) to find out the game is virtually unplayable it is too late to get her moms money back and support a developer who actually makes quality gamesDvnDrgnXD

The have always been bad games and always will be. In most cases bad games are due to insuffeciant development times from dead lines and deadlines are a neccesary evil to prevent things like Duke Nukem Forever from happening. Just because product isn't good is not an excuse to scrap the work and throw those millions of dollars and years of work out the window. If you don't want to buy bad games then do your research, play demos, rent and barrow instead of just hastily buying every game at launch. The kids will learn to.

Third, it seems that developers and publishershave more rights than the consumer, to me that is wrong. If my little brother sends a bad message to someone from my account then I get perma-banned AND all the content that I bought is gone. Can my telephone company take away my phone for sending a prank call? No, they can shut my service off it they want to but they still cannot take my phone. This also comes to the fact that a few times Xbox LIVE had been down for a considerable amount of time and even though I pay for it and cannot access it because of M$ problems I am still not considered for a partial refund or any form of apology (that one time I actually got a game, that ONE TIME).DvnDrgnXD

You shoud have been more responsible with your console then. Microsoft has to try and ensure everyone is enjoying their game and if your console is ruining eveyone's fun because your brother is a douche Microsoft will do the right thing. And your "Consideralbe amount of time Is like half a week at best. If you don't like how microsoft handles their business get a Wii or a PS3.

I can honestly say I don't understand your beef. I mean since Odyssy companies have make money off of terrible games. It's pretty ridiculous but it's going to keep happening. Some companies like LJN have only really ever produced garbage and they made millions of dollars off of it. If you put out the worst possible game you could have imagined but throw some cartoons on the front and balloon lettering then there is that certain niche of people who are going to buy it for their 4 year old's birthday. Sure, it's shameful but it will always happen. The same way GI JOE toys are next to Army Man Bob in the toy isle. Some grandma is accidentally going to pick the crappy one and that's that. I have had my phone, internet, and power go out for a couple of days before, and none of those companies would offer ten cents worth of refund either. Sucks I guess. World of Warcraft goes down every Monday night, and people still complain about it, but it's just the way it goes. All you can really do is research what you are considering buying before you shell out the cash. I guess some people like the little kids you mentioned get screwed. I bought Friday the 13th brand new when I was a kid thinking it would be awesome. Well it sucked hard. I learned my lesson though and stopped buying games that I knew nothing about from what was printed on the box. billyd5301

There is *no* reason to legitimately complain about purchasing a bad game nowadays. You can complain to the developer if you are disappointed, complain to friends, but you do not deserve any legal recourse whatsoever.

No time is more gamer-friendly than now. You can visit half a dozen review sites in several minutes, and you can even check the reviews from virtually every major source at Metacritic. There is *no* excuse for not knowing what a game is.

Back when I was just starting in gaming, all you had was the box and the screenshots on the back. Maybe you'd have a chance to see it in Nintendo Power, but still, Nintendo Power trumped up every game and never gave honest reviews back then. We had nothing but friends to rely on to determine if a game was good or not.

There is *no* reason to legitimately complain about purchasing a bad game nowadays. You can complain to the developer if you are disappointed, complain to friends, but you do not deserve any legal recourse whatsoever.

No time is more gamer-friendly than now. You can visit half a dozen review sites in several minutes, and you can even check the reviews from virtually every major source at Metacritic. There is *no* excuse for not knowing what a game is.

Back when I was just starting in gaming, all you had was the box and the screenshots on the back. Maybe you'd have a chance to see it in Nintendo Power, but still, Nintendo Power trumped up every game and never gave honest reviews back then. We had nothing but friends to rely on to determine if a game was good or not.

[QUOTE="MithrilFox"]

There is *no* reason to legitimately complain about purchasing a bad game nowadays. You can complain to the developer if you are disappointed, complain to friends, but you do not deserve any legal recourse whatsoever.

No time is more gamer-friendly than now. You can visit half a dozen review sites in several minutes, and you can even check the reviews from virtually every major source at Metacritic. There is *no* excuse for not knowing what a game is.

Back when I was just starting in gaming, all you had was the box and the screenshots on the back. Maybe you'd have a chance to see it in Nintendo Power, but still, Nintendo Power trumped up every game and never gave honest reviews back then. We had nothing but friends to rely on to determine if a game was good or not.

DvnDrgnXD

Why is it that you're willing to throw in every single analogy that doesn't fit to simply rid it of personal responsibility?

That's what this entire subject is about. If you have personal responsibility there is no problem at all

It's up to each user to educate themselves about games, if they fail to do so it's 100% on them

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"][QUOTE="MithrilFox"]

There is *no* reason to legitimately complain about purchasing a bad game nowadays. You can complain to the developer if you are disappointed, complain to friends, but you do not deserve any legal recourse whatsoever.

No time is more gamer-friendly than now. You can visit half a dozen review sites in several minutes, and you can even check the reviews from virtually every major source at Metacritic. There is *no* excuse for not knowing what a game is.

Back when I was just starting in gaming, all you had was the box and the screenshots on the back. Maybe you'd have a chance to see it in Nintendo Power, but still, Nintendo Power trumped up every game and never gave honest reviews back then. We had nothing but friends to rely on to determine if a game was good or not.

Why is it that you're willing to throw in every single analogy that doesn't fit to simply rid it of personal responsibility?

That's what this entire subject is about. If you have personal responsibility there is no problem at all

It's up to each user to educate themselves about games, if they fail to do so it's 100% on them

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"] Okay, lets make this even more dumb. Lets talk cars, things a heck of a lot more expensive then games. Why can I go to a dealership, buy a new car, full price, and still return it within 30 days if I dont like it? And, yes, it is impatience, but, it seems that most reviewers dont review a game until after it comes out. My GameInformer comes in once a month, GameSpot updates their reviews whenever they really feel like it (2 months after a game has been out and no review? Please.) and I generally dont trust them more then the used car salesman who tries to sell junk cars. I understand that there are opinions which are shown with GameInformer, IGN, and GameSpots dramatic different view on certain games. However, when the general consensus says "this is no better than what Madoff is doing" (in principle, not scope :D) then there should be some recourse. And my mom would not visit game sites to decide which game, to get, instead decide on which game sell themselves best (back on game box, ect.), I think as now gaming has an influence on upcoming generation it still does not change the fact that we are still with people from the past half decade. You cant say the investors of Madoff got what they coming because they had no knowledge in investment. They were mislead. And in some cases in games, so are we. DvnDrgnXD

Why is it that you're willing to throw in every single analogy that doesn't fit to simply rid it of personal responsibility?

That's what this entire subject is about. If you have personal responsibility there is no problem at all

It's up to each user to educate themselves about games, if they fail to do so it's 100% on them

Again, stop using analogies that don't fit

People did not have the ability to see everything that Madoff did. They are nothing alike, so far every single analogy you've used has demonstrated that your understanding of the subject and what the subject really is isn't the same.

Please tell me why you're so set of not having personal responsibility, that's all your doing here

[QUOTE="DvnDrgnXD"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

Why is it that you're willing to throw in every single analogy that doesn't fit to simply rid it of personal responsibility?

That's what this entire subject is about. If you have personal responsibility there is no problem at all

It's up to each user to educate themselves about games, if they fail to do so it's 100% on them

Again, stop using analogies that don't fit

People did not have the ability to see everything that Madoff did. They are nothing alike, so far every single analogy you've used has demonstrated that your understanding of the subject and what the subject really is isn't the same.

Please tell me why you're so set of not having personal responsibility, that's all your doing here

That's the great thing about the free market. Video game companies that make garbage games don't last very long. So you bought a bad game. Get over it.