Wrong, Ilos is only known through second hand sources, nevermind the relay to Ilos was "lost". The Protheans having tricks up their sleeves doesn't mean its not DEM. No, the Catalyst is by nature, through his control of the Reapers, the main antagonist. And no, the Reapers think what they are doing is saving the galaxy. Even Sovereign and especially Harbinger talking about salvation through harvesting or destruction, or bringing order to the chaos. No, I did not answer the question. The problem with synthesis is that you are forcing people to become hybrids, which is morally questionable. Thats why its only the antagonist's "ideal solution". the ideal solution for Anderson and TIM is destroy and control respectively. There is no real ideal solution the story defines (the story, not the characters in it), its all about you. And please, you are making crap up at this point. Sorry, but the Catalyst knows of the Crucible's designs before, he even tells you this. What he doesn't know is that it can connect to the Citadel against him (hence "you changed the variables") and that it existed in this cycle. Sorry, but AI's can easily identify power sources, nevermind the FACT that its foreshadowed as one throughout ME3, both through dialogue AND the war assets descriptions. Did you miss the part where the Collectors were blown up? Whoops, no wonder the Reapers inavded and used the Citadel. Ther point is that the Reapers did not anticipate how organics would fight back, which is clear throughout the series. Nevermind that ME3 basically defines them as fallible, prone to errors. No, you smerlus, make criticisms up without even looking at the story or the codex. Its all in the narrative, you choose to ignore obvious things and you really don't know literary terms too well. In fact, Deus Ex Machinas and Diablous Ex Machinas are not always bad, its all about how they are used. And please, Obsidan can have garbage writing as well. The KOTOR 2 influence system is very illogical, Neverwinter Nights 2, the vanilla game, is generic as all hell. Alpha Protocol lacks character developement, multidimensional characters, and plays the same trick way too many times. And Lonesome Road is very underdeveloped and rushed as hell.texasgoldrush

No Catalyst is not the main antagonist. He appears in the last 10 minutes of the game with no mention of him prior to that and is clearly on your side as he walks you through the steps of what to do, how to do it and even gives you the ability to do it.

Destroy destroys a couple races of creatures, Control enslaves them and Synthesis makes everyone live happily ever after despite being stupid...which is the morally incorrect one?

You're right, he knows the designs existed in the past but it was never made and the creators didn't know what it did...how would it?

Did you miss the part where the collectors were using their own ship? So obviously there are more than one way to reap. To use the only thing that can destroy you and keep it in enemy reach is a terrible tactic.

I choose to ignore? You won't even watch a video and comment on it honestly. You did this with TOR going F2p. I gave you the link and you said "EA would never let the game go f2p"...and you were wrong. You said ME2's story is about your team mates and you were wrong. You thought Ubisoft made Obsidian's Onyx engine and you were wrong. And now there's a video with makos exploding around Shepard a few feet away, he runs underneath normandy for a chat and all enemy is fired so they can chat.

why are you bringing obsidian up? why not just watch the video and give me a human adult response instead of the fanboy response?

[QUOTE="smerlus"]

[QUOTE="texasgoldrush"] Please, Vigil comes out of the blue to give a file to prevent Sovereign from taking over the station. However, the main problem is not even having a chance at all. Vigil contrively solves the problem. It is DEM. Shepard wins ME1 due to the fact that Vigil gave him the data file. ONCE AGAIN...a DEM can be used at ANY TIME to solve ANY PROBLEM. Read the damn script, the Catalyst assists Shepard because he "changed the variables", but the Catalyst CAN'T enact them. Sorry, but the plain fact that Shepard is needed to enact synthesis, proves that he is IS THE SOLUTION. Catalyst brought him up because of this. No, I don't...but the Catalyst defines synthesis as his "ideal solution". Its all in the script, pay attention. No, EDI doesn't just speculate, she hacks and investigates, try again. See the Collector Ship mission in ME2 again. EDI is a very powerful AI key to Shepards success. Oh wait, the Crucible effect and that its a power source is also foreshadowed. Nevermind Hackett is treating it as such. They don't know exactly what it does, but they have their hints. Its all in the narrative, you just miss or ignore it. There you go changing the argument again. Since you cannot counter that they weren't forshadowed. Why does Sovereign need the Prothean Beacon? Why does he need the Conduit? Sorry, but this aspect of ME1 is simply illogical. Had Saren's quest been about investigating the truth behind the sabotage or looking for the Ilos station, than it would make sense. All this effort looking for a back door when he doesn't need one is stupid. Face it, Drew K dropped the ball. Once again, they could have trojan horsed a very unsuspecting Citadel. If they were targeting him, why wasn't Shepard directly hit by the first shot? Please, spare me your made up arguments. Simply put, you know very little about ME3 or its themes to even criticize.texasgoldrush

Please...why are we saying please? Catalyst comes out of the blue and lays out a red carpet for sheppard then tells him how to use a device the creators of the device didn't even know how to use.

Read the damn script. Vigil assists shepard because he's an organic but Vigil can't install the virus. Sorry, but the plain fact that Shepard is needed to install the virus proves that he IS THE SOLUTION. Vigil brought him over because of this. See how easy that was to use the same argument? So either they are both DEMs or they're not. Either way I win.

You just said the script believes it's the ideal solution. we're talking about writing here. I mean it is the super secret ending that you need to work the hardest to achieve so not only does Catalyst tell you how to work this unknown thing, gives you the way to access it and offers it's own advice on the best way to handle it...The script actually points it out by making you play the game the most just to get it. Yet shepard is the solution. sorry but shepard can't even touch the machine without Catalyst. how can he solve a problem he can't even help?

EDI does speculate. I dont remember EDI coming in contact with the Collector vessel and after 2 minutes giving me a complete breakdown of what it does.

Why don't the Reapers take the citadel to deep space or hide it? Sorry but this aspect of ME3 is simply illogical. Face it, the stooge that wrote Mass Effect 3 dropped the ball so hard that BioWare had to make a DLC to patch up how crappy the ending was.

Did you watch the video? Apparently you haven't. Spare me your childish retorts like Your Obsidian's Onyx engine rebuttle or the fact you didn't even know what ME 2's plot was.

Simply put you are daft to think that you and the other guy are the only ones that understand Mass Effect 3 doubly daft after BioWare went back and tried to fix the ending which is admittance that it sucks.

2.You clearly don't understand. As I said before , when was it ever stated before what there goals are. And the very concept of them doing what they are programed to do ties to there goal. They don't see what they are doing is wrong.

3.They are machines traped in logic to do a goal and form a different consept on life.

4. The crucible is like an up grade. Destroy and control is no space magic but synthesis is.

5.http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Relay

Mass Relaysare mass transit devices scattered throughout thegalaxy, usually located within starsystems. They form an enormous network allowing interstellar travel. Hailed as one of the greatest achievements of the extinctProtheans, a mass relay can transportstarshipsinstantaneously to another relay within the network, allowing for journeys that would otherwise take years or even decades with onlyFTLdrives.

6.The theeories made by people who hated them and did not understand them over rules the statement of one of the closest squad members on you team who is quarian?

7.It a general feature of the citadel...All parts of the citadel do this. IT'S IN THE CODEX.

dreman999

2. You're the one that doesn't get it. I NEVER said they had clear goals, I'm saying the goals once they became clear not only neutered the threat of the Reapers but also made them piss poor antagonists because they are machines designed to do a job and this advanced alien society designed them to be dumb to the fact but also programmed them to talk smack while doing their job. The only thing I don't get is that you actually think this is good writing.

3.So which one is it? Are they trapped in logic and they can't break their programming or do they want to stop the cycle? You can't have it both ways.

4. Destroy is space magic because it doesn't choose to wreck the Quarians.

5. I pull out an official codex entry and you tell me i'm wrong and you pull out a wikipedia article that anyone can write and you expect me to accept that? :lol:

6. Buuuut you said the codices are written by popular opinion. What's more popular than one of the most unsavory races in the ME universe are cyborgs themselves?

7. So it's a general feature and it's in the codex. where was that general feature in ME1? I mean in the area I traversed in Mass Effect 1 there were service ducts meaning people probably hung out there to repair things. So they wouldn't pump oxygen to the outside of the place where people would be yet they would do it to a place where Catalyst said no organic has ever gone? How is this good writing?

What's funny is that everytime you actually post an official codex entry, it is FACT. Once I do it, it's up for scrutiny because it's from the viewpoint of the characters in game. You and Texas like to argue points that are one sided and it's pretty childish. Either every codex entry is up for scrutiny or none of them are. You can't support your side and automatically declare that only ones that support your arguments are perfect and written by the designers themselves.

Please, Vigil comes out of the blue to give a file to prevent Sovereign from taking over the station. However, the main problem is not even having a chance at all. Vigil contrively solves the problem. It is DEM. Shepard wins ME1 due to the fact that Vigil gave him the data file. ONCE AGAIN...a DEM can be used at ANY TIME to solve ANY PROBLEM. Read the damn script, the Catalyst assists Shepard because he "changed the variables", but the Catalyst CAN'T enact them. Sorry, but the plain fact that Shepard is needed to enact synthesis, proves that he is IS THE SOLUTION. Catalyst brought him up because of this. No, I don't...but the Catalyst defines synthesis as his "ideal solution". Its all in the script, pay attention. No, EDI doesn't just speculate, she hacks and investigates, try again. See the Collector Ship mission in ME2 again. EDI is a very powerful AI key to Shepards success. Oh wait, the Crucible effect and that its a power source is also foreshadowed. Nevermind Hackett is treating it as such. They don't know exactly what it does, but they have their hints. Its all in the narrative, you just miss or ignore it. There you go changing the argument again. Since you cannot counter that they weren't forshadowed. Why does Sovereign need the Prothean Beacon? Why does he need the Conduit? Sorry, but this aspect of ME1 is simply illogical. Had Saren's quest been about investigating the truth behind the sabotage or looking for the Ilos station, than it would make sense. All this effort looking for a back door when he doesn't need one is stupid. Face it, Drew K dropped the ball. Once again, they could have trojan horsed a very unsuspecting Citadel. If they were targeting him, why wasn't Shepard directly hit by the first shot? Please, spare me your made up arguments. Simply put, you know very little about ME3 or its themes to even criticize.texasgoldrush

Please...why are we saying please? Catalyst comes out of the blue and lays out a red carpet for sheppard then tells him how to use a device the creators of the device didn't even know how to use.

Read the damn script. Vigil assists shepard because he's an organic but Vigil can't install the virus. Sorry, but the plain fact that Shepard is needed to install the virus proves that he IS THE SOLUTION. Vigil brought him over because of this. See how easy that was to use the same argument? So either they are both DEMs or they're not. Either way I win.

You just said the script believes it's the ideal solution. we're talking about writing here. I mean it is the super secret ending that you need to work the hardest to achieve so not only does Catalyst tell you how to work this unknown thing, gives you the way to access it and offers it's own advice on the best way to handle it...The script actually points it out by making you play the game the most just to get it. Yet shepard is the solution. sorry but shepard can't even touch the machine without Catalyst. how can he solve a problem he can't even help?

EDI does speculate. I dont remember EDI coming in contact with the Collector vessel and after 2 minutes giving me a complete breakdown of what it does.

Why don't the Reapers take the citadel to deep space or hide it? Sorry but this aspect of ME3 is simply illogical. Face it, the stooge that wrote Mass Effect 3 dropped the ball so hard that BioWare had to make a DLC to patch up how crappy the ending was.

Did you watch the video? Apparently you haven't. Spare me your childish retorts like Your Obsidian's Onyx engine rebuttle or the fact you didn't even know what ME 2's plot was.

Simply put you are daft to think that you and the other guy are the only ones that understand Mass Effect 3 doubly daft after BioWare went back and tried to fix the ending which is admittance that it sucks.

2. You really don't get the reapers concept do you. The reaper don't see themselve being slavesto there program as the problem. It's like indoctriantion. They would not see it as the problem themselves. Some else would. Like how Saren did not thing he was indoctrinated and Shepard had to tell him for him to get it.

3.You need to under stand there goal.They do not want to reap.

4.New info came in. A being of logic only uses the info it has in had. If it gets new info, it's conclution changes. Before the catalyst only though the reaper solution would work. Now that it know the catalyst can do a better job and the old solutionwas not going to work, things change.

5.Your not getting the concept of a teleporter.

6.The cedox is written like the most common person understanding in THE ME universe. The codex also say the citadel was attacked by geth and a giant geth ship. If you talked to Tali in ME1 and ME2, you would knowit's not the case.

7.The farther you go from the core of the citadel, the less air and graity there is. He was going tothe topof citadel tower,which is far from the core of the citadel. In me3 he is at the base of the citadel.

dreman999

You still do not get what DEM is. Vigil file stops Sovereign from taking over the station. Once again, DEM applies to any problem. its not through the heroes actions that prevents Sovereign from taking over the station, its the data file itself, from someone who came out of the blue. And once again, through a plot hole, the fleet is DEM.

Wrong. The file doesn't stop Sovereign from taking over the station. If that was true then the Reapers would have never invaded when the Protheans were alive. It offers a few moments of delay. You do know the Citadel is at the seat of power, why wouldn't there be a fleet there already? Not a DEM.

The Catalyst is once again, closer to Diablous Ex Machina than a Deus Ex Machina. He is not a "god from the machine", but a "devil from the machine" as he is the main antagonist. Not only this, he presents a PROBLEM to Shepard, a dilemma on what sacrifice Shepard must make to stop the cycle. It is Shepard that has to finalize this solution and make the sacrifice, of himself or the galaxy. SHEPARD IS THE SOLUTION. Nevermind that Shepard being basically both organic and synthetic allows for synthesis to work.

Sheppard is not the solution because he can't even access the crucible without Catalyst.

Please.....you just don't get it. Nevermind that the Catalyst also states that synthesis is an ideal solution, so if he thinks that due to Shepards presence, organics are ready, why the hell would he not "change his mind"?

So you even admit that he offers the best solution. So how is he presenting a problem when he also gives you the best way to fix it?

Please, if EDI can analyze an entire ships systems instantaneously, the Catalyst can analyze the Crucible.

EDI as an AI is equipped to ID known technology anytime it runs into things that aren't known EDI only speculates what's going on. The Crucible is garbage writing because the people that created it didn't know what it did, the plans have changed over and over again...but Catalyst is able to scan it and tell exactly what it does.

No, the Catalyst was foreshaodwed by Vendetta when he states that Reapers are only servants of the pattern, but cannot identify its MASTER, on Thessia. The motives, the need to control chaos by harvesting organics, was STRONGLY hinted by the Rannoch Reaper, who uses the Quarian/Geth conflict was a reason to do what they do.

So Reapers are nothing more than giant machines programmed to do a job and talk sh%t while doing it which is absurd and crappy writing.

And when did I say that they were going to be nice on Eden Prime? I said THEY DID NOT NEED TO GO THERE AT ALL.

Why wouldn't they? Sovereign wanted to know what the Prothean Beacon said and needed an Organic to do so.

oh and to answer your final stupid question.....the ship does, Shepard doesn't, however, he was targeted a lot by Reapers the entire game. However, they don't specifically go for him.

Okay next couple of questions about the video. Did you watch it? Why are vehicles exploding around Sheppard it they are not targeting him?

texasgoldrush

Oi, stop using logic, we're in a thread discussing Mass Effect 3s ending. :P

Also, here's some quotes from Harby:

"Your worlds will become our laboratories."

"Take what is useful, destroy the rest."

It seems to me that they were not interested in "preserving organic life", but were using us for their own gain.

Peredith

Uh, don't you think some of you guys are over-analyzing this? It's just a god damn video game.

megadeth1117