Looks its not my fault you subscribe to the coffee table RTS with three civs or less LMAO! None of the Relic or Blizzard RTS games you mentioned are known at their peak for substance. Make the distinction.

Starcraft had a small cult following. AOETC had a larger than Warcraft and Starcraft combined at their respective peaks, and AOETC peaked for a HECK OF A LOT LONGER. There were also over fifteen civilizations, which means more units, and maps, and architecture, AND a professional ladder that included a lot of war gamers that were older people. Medieval Total War is known for its epic quality. The new Total war will have more unit variations, skins, architecture ad stuff than three of these other coffee table RTS games combined. The other games you mentioned at their peak don't hold a candle. They have much less content, they aren't known for being epic, or known for their substance.

I grew up on Axis and Allies and Russian Front board games. Just thought I would say that my strategy gaming isn't only from the video game world. AOETC lasted longer, had a much larger player base, and actually attracted more professional-like gamers, but most of all its fun level at its long lasting peak melts those Relic and Blizzard games faces off. And for the sake of The Total War series, please do not compare coffee table RTS games to it. Its a different animal. Though its still an RTS with a lot of other features. Its magnitude surpasses any Relic or Blizzard RTS by a mile.

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My opinion is that Age of Empires:The Conquerors, and Medieval Total War are more respective to the genre than anything Relic or Blizzard has made.

DOW and COH are both linear. One is graphics based. Both have VERY few factions to choose from. Concerning Blizzards Starcraft, I really don't think it even registers at all with the better games that have been made. Though I never played it, it never appealed to me. Warcraft was okay, but kind of cheesy and very repetitive.

Total War series and Age of Empires(though III was a huge let down), The Conquerors in particular have a much larger fan-base I would gather. AOETC at one point probably had an on-line players base equal to most of these games put together. Even though AOETC was made by Microsoft games(LOL!), it was probably at its peak, pound for pound, better than any other RTS made to date.

Now I give the nod to Creative Assembly for being the best in the RTS genre. Though their game is a bit different from the faster paced builder, resource gather type. It has a simulation element to it. AOEIII was a flop to many fans, but AOETC and the zone still reign as champ.

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I'd rather have 3 completely different factions than 30 nearly identical ones, which pretty much make up pretty much all the factions in the first two Age of Empires games.

Cutting off your head, removing an eye and naming it "football" doesn't change the fact that it's your head.

Yea we have heard this a million times from everyone and their mom. Fact is, that those strategy games of the three-civ-or-less mantra sell very poorly. They have very short lived lifespans too. They keep holding on to that addage, and realistically everyone knows its just a play on words. Those games get beat by games with more factions by a light year in sales, and in player base. They are coffee table RTS games. Not to be confused with RTS games that deliver and have staying power that goes beyond a few months, or even a year. AOEIII lasted over five years strong. Medieval games last at least two years, and they are driven by a large modding community. Rise and Fall gets the nod because they tried to do something tht requires a ton of effort. No other RTS developer is willing to go to that extent to blend FPS and the traditoonal RTS because its a daunting task to make it exceptional.

My opinion is that Age of Empires:The Conquerors, and Medieval Total War are more respective to the genre than anything Relic or Blizzard has made.

DOW and COH are both linear. One is graphics based. Both have VERY few factions to choose from. Concerning Blizzards Starcraft, I really don't think it even registers at all with the better games that have been made. Though I never played it, it never appealed to me. Warcraft was okay, but kind of cheesy and very repetitive.

Total War series and Age of Empires(though III was a huge let down), The Conquerors in particular have a much larger fan-base I would gather. AOETC at one point probably had an on-line players base equal to most of these games put together. Even though AOETC was made by Microsoft games(LOL!), it was probably at its peak, pound for pound, better than any other RTS made to date.

Now I give the nod to Creative Assembly for being the best in the RTS genre. Though their game is a bit different from the faster paced builder, resource gather type. It has a simulation element to it. AOEIII was a flop to many fans, but AOETC and the zone still reign as champ.

These Relic and Blizzard RTS games are coffee table RTS games. They are not even close to the best in the genre. They subscribe to the three-faction-or-less idiom and linear maps drivel. Or they are based on graphics. I would consider both of them to have dumbed down the genre more than anything.

As a third choice after AOETC, and M2TW I will add Stainless Steel Studios, Rise and Fall:Civillizations at War. I consider those the three pioneers of the genre, past and present.

Okay fine, then I wont. I will TRY to "like" Blizzard more I suppose on the basis of Diablo III. But I dont expect to. Some people just tend to like certain developers and stuff more than others.

I checked out Mythos and it looks like its hanging in the balance. Sacred 2' armors and gear doesnt look very cool to me. Neither does Legend Hand of Gods. I guess i'll just stick to RTS and FPS and forget about it. Though im going to make a go at Titan Quest again and hope I can find some co-op. Ireinstalled it and briefly checked outthe co-op. I seen about fifty servers and most were in a different language.

Anyone interested in co-op for Titan Quest? I would be willing to start a new character with you if you want to play a lot. I love co-op RPG fantasy exploratiion, dungeon crawling, boss killing and treasure finding.

Thanks for your suggestions guys, even if they come with a lot of bashing. I still have no desire to play any Blizzard made game. The developer just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I could care less if Diablo made the genre. I dont think that is possible anyway since I know there are similar isometric RPG's long before Diablo came out. I just dont like Blizzard as a game developer and im entitled to my opinion.

Also I said Baldurs Gate, Icewidn Dale, and Vampire The masquerade were too old for me. Once a game has been out for so long finding patches and stuff becomes a pain. Another reason is that considering they are older games, is one of the reason im upset. The premise of the post is that the current market for the single player/co-op RPG is flat. With out bashing the newer games, they just dont loo epic or special to me. They look like they could be expansion packs. Or the armors and stuff in them doesnt appeal to me.

I have been a gamer for a long time. When you look back and see thousands of games that were made with fun in mind, that was their selling point. Blizzard showed me through my extensive WoW playing time that they were about creating restrictions at every corner to keep gamers, and build a game around causing headaches and frustration. I dont think that belongs in the game market, and I think its one of the reasons so many developers follow up their ideals. MMO's can directly ffect every other genre and ruin a market for years. Anyway I also thought Blizzard was always condescending and sarcastic(who would have thought it?) to each other and everyone else in their community. They have good points, but id rather not support a developer that doesnt emphasize creativity and fun over monthly fees and banging the player in to submission to pay them each month. I'd rather play General Chaos from the old days.

I didnt actually feel like I needed to explain that to anyone, or that it was anyone elses business. Especially since fanboys come in packs. I will not be buying any future Blizzard titles because of WoW's game design. It shows a disdain for what made the industry and why people play games. If you're going to make an MMO, the restriuctions should be based on the story, not milking monthly fees. If it cant stand on its own feet when free of Blizzard-esque restrictions, then it should melt away. The community over there is also a rank fest, and always has been. The game istelf pits everyone against each other and you get this constant downtrodden epxerience even in the hig points of the game. AND the challenge Blizzard created in the game comes from select guilds that help create these dungeons and boss fights, and thats about the extent of it. It isnbt challenging for the average payer, just a grind. Players dont have to think, just grind. The only challenge is based around boss fights and dungeons in which there are many restrictions. Ive focused too much on my dislike of WoW and my lack of respect for Blizzard.

Anyway I reinstalled TQIT, and that willbe good enough. There just isnt anything current or coming soon that looks very appealing in this genre. Sorry to have made the post because ther wasnt anything I had not already looked at.

The ones coming out all look very cheesy like the developers are just trying to make a quick buck. I know you're going to bring up the new Diablo, but I dont play Blizzard games. I'm done with that company after realizing WoW wasnt meant for enjoyment as much as it was meant to get people hooke don forking out money.

I would still be playing Titan Quest if all of the armors werent Roman-esque, and the online play was actually thought out. I didnt get to play Dungeon Siege 2 and its expansion. I just remember I liked the firts one and I had fun in the online co-op.

I've scoured free RPG's all over the net, and browsed forums endlessly looking for a solid RPG. One thats newer. I would have liekd to try Vampire The Masquerade but its too old for me now. Same with Baldurs Gate and Icewind Dale.

I tried the Never Winter Nights Gold Edition and I played it for a few hours before shelfing it permanently a long time ago. It was linear and nothing like what I expected.

With all of these MMO's the single player/co-op RPG genre is terrible lately in my opinion. I already have my RTS(M2TW and Kingdoms, and my FPS fix(COD4 and Combat Arms), but I cant find a good RPG with a lot of customization, cool armors, and overall just badass. I have Titan Quest and the expansion sitting here but the online part sucks.

Is there a game somewhere I overlooked, or something im missing? I'm really sad for lack of better words. I have been wanting that awesome epic 3D RPG for a long time now.