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BrownNoeser

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#3 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
I know the UK don't have the death penalty, but I'm sure a few people there wished they had kept some kind of provision for extreme cruelty and when the suspect is clearly guilty.majwill24
He's guilty and the crime is severe, he clearly cannot integrate successfully with society at present. However, killing him is absolute ridiculousness, it is barbaric and juvenile. Before you can rightfully kill someone the burden of proof is on you to provide justification as to why he should be killed. "He killed someone therefore he deserves to be killed" is inconsistent as it suggests that the original killing was justified (if in turn the perpetrator is killed) when in fact the original killing was not justified whatsoever.

The killer should spend a fixed amount of time separated from the rest of society and that time should be spent dedicated to his rehabilitation and eventual reintegration back into society.

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#4 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"] First, Capitalism as we have it is NOT the best motivator...just the best available Now For The Points you let Wiki Make: 1. Special, Meaningful, Tasks -only certain people will have these...the trashman will say that he lacks both of those -and now the trash man will be lacking the little motivation given by a capitalistic structure 2. Identifies the IMPORTANCE of individual's specific tasks This was my exact point -the larger you get, the harder it is to identify your importance in the overall picture...the bigger it all becomes, the smaller of a cog you become 3. Choice Communism quote "From each according to his ability" Ability =/= choice...if everyone had their choice, we would all be athletes/movie stars (an exaggeration, but I hope you get the point) -no one would choose to be the trashman So your source actually supported every argument I gave

1. Nope. Again "From each according to his ability". The trashman is not forced to be the trashman, the trashman does his job because it is suited to his abilities. In a Communist society is contribution would be seen as more meaningful simply because people are not valued on the amount of capital they produce but simply as people who contribute. A trashman is as highly valued as a doctor. 2. It's easy to see in our everyday lives how important the trashman is. 3. The more you desire to succeed in something (choice) the more likely you are to succeed in something (ability). Ability is linked with choice. And no, in a Communist society not everyone would choose to be athletes/movie stars because they would be no richer than anybody else. I will go over them again:

1. Collaboration is a way to get everyone involved in the group by assigning each member special, meaningful tasks. (CSCW, 2000) It is a way for the group members to share the knowledge and the tasks to be fulfilled unfailingly. For example, if Sally and Paul were loafing because they were not given specific tasks, then giving Paul the note taker duty and Sally the brainstorming duty will make them feel essential to the group. Sally and Paul will be less likely to want to let the group down, because they have specific obligations to complete.

In a Capitalist society people are not assigned jobs meaningfully they do so out of necessity. In a Communist society everyone would be given specific and meaningful tasks, nobody would simply laze about.

2. Content identifies the importance of the individual's specific tasks within the group. If group members see their role as that involved in completing a worthy task, then they are more likely to fulfill it. For example, Sally may enjoy brainstorming, as she knows that she will bring a lot to the group if she fulfills this obligation. She feels that her obligation will be valued by the group.

In a Communist society everyone has a feeling of gratitude for one and others contributions (go back and read the excerpt of Orwell talking about Catalonia). In a Capitalist society you are seen as a cog in machine, your value and importance is measured by your wealth.

3. Choice gives the group members the opportunity to choose the task they want to fulfill. Assigning roles in a group causes complaints and frustration. Allowing group members the freedom to choose their role makes social loafing less significant, and encourages the members to work together as a team.

People are more likely to choose to work according to their ability because they like to do what they good at. In a Communist society you do what you are good at. In a Capitalist society you do whatever the person hiring you tells you to do. There are incredibly intelligent people in jobs that require little mental work.

Also, from that Wikipedia page:

Work Conditions under which Social Loafing does NOT Occur:

1. when the individual's contributions are CLEARLY identified by the fellow group members -In Capitalism your contribution is seen as little. n Communism your contribution is seen as equally important as everyone else's.

2. when subjects are personally involved 3. when there is high group cooperation. -Cooperation is the rule of Communism, self-interest is the rule of Capitalism.

4. when the task is challenging. -In Capitalism intelligent people are in jobs that require little mental work. In Communism you work according to your ability i.e. your work in areas that challenge you and test your ability.

5. the reward suits the end product -In Capitalism the reward is wages that are not worth the labour you expended. In Communism you expend equal labour (labour according to how much you can expend according to your ability) and receive equal reward (everyone according to their need).

Is this source 'suspect' too?flazzle
Definitely.
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BrownNoeser

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#5 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
[QUOTE="BrownNoeser"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]No...people have always been as lazy as they can get away with...always (through all recorded history, man has been as lazy as is allowed) rawsavon
My father is retired. Yesterday he hired a decorator to come and do work on his house. My dad helped the decorator do his job.

Look...you are not going to accept anything else...that's cool (Note: there will always be individuals outside the norm in both directions [like your dad]...we are talking about man as a whole, not on the individual basis) All I know is that there has NEVER been a successful communist state on the large scale we are talking about And I have mounds of studies that state the validity of cognitive laziness and social loafing (what I got my first degree in)

Wikipedia: The answer to social loafing is motivation. A competitive environment may not necessarily get group members motivated. For Rothwell, it takes "the three C's of motivation" to get a group moving: collaboration, content, and choice.

1. Collaboration is a way to get everyone involved in the group by assigning each member special, meaningful tasks. (CSCW, 2000) It is a way for the group members to share the knowledge and the tasks to be fulfilled unfailingly. For example, if Sally and Paul were loafing because they were not given specific tasks, then giving Paul the note taker duty and Sally the brainstorming duty will make them feel essential to the group. Sally and Paul will be less likely to want to let the group down, because they have specific obligations to complete.

2. Content identifies the importance of the individual's specific tasks within the group. If group members see their role as that involved in completing a worthy task, then they are more likely to fulfill it. For example, Sally may enjoy brainstorming, as she knows that she will bring a lot to the group if she fulfills this obligation. She feels that her obligation will be valued by the group.

3. Choice gives the group members the opportunity to choose the task they want to fulfill. Assigning roles in a group causes complaints and frustration. Allowing group members the freedom to choose their role makes social loafing less significant, and encourages the members to work together as a team.

Communism would provide the three C's just as countless small communes have in the past. The Communist slogan "From each according to his ability" cover Content and Choice while Collaboration results out of organisation (a Communist society would be highly organised, centralised democracy being fundamental). Your studies support Communism more than Capitalism as Communism provides far more of the 3 C's than Capitalism does and as stated above: "A competitive environment may not necessarily get group members motivated."
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#6 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
[QUOTE="flazzle"]I always find the following historical recording of the Pilgrims most interesting. [...]

Your source is very highly suspect. It comes from a company website (right-wing bias) and for some reason the words "Communist Manifesto" are put in there completely Deus ex machina. The source she uses is suspect too as it is was written some years after the event and the testament of a single man is always suspect, especially if that man had a right-wing bias himself. Not only that, but who knows if the book she used as her source was what the pilgrim actually wrote, it may have been altered for the sake of propaganda. Neither of us really knows exactly what happened to the pilgrims but the fact of the matter is people (and animals) have been working for a collective good for millennia.
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#7 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
[QUOTE="rawsavon"]No...people have always been as lazy as they can get away with...always (through all recorded history, man has been as lazy as is allowed)

My father is retired. Yesterday he hired a decorator to come and do work on his house. My dad helped the decorator do his job.
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#8 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
It is a nice idea that will never come about to the inherent flaws of man, "original sin" if you like.solid_mario
I said earlier that I find this argument is annoying and I find it annoying for a number of reasons: 1. It is absolutely unfounded and untrue. 2. It makes a blanket statement on all of mankind which is simply offensive when I consider people who work 12 hours a day. 3. The reason why people want to be lazy is because they want to be like the exploitative upper class who can afford to lazy by living off of other people's labour. People who would rather join the lazy, exploitative upper-class rather than overthrow it are annoying. 4. People have no reason to believe that it is true, it is pure delusion. People can hold in their heads both the idea that people can work 12 hours a day and the idea that people are inherently lazy at the same time. This is an example of the Orwellian "Doublethink", and is saddening that people can actually be that intellectually bankrupt. People are not inherently lazy. "Inherent laziness" implies the gene for laziness and the gene for laziness makes absolute no evolutionary sense. People built houses, they farmed farms, they made tools. They did this of their own accord, nobody was making them do this, they just simply did it. Laziness is the consequence of exploitation, of Capitalism. Communism would overthrow Capitalism and therefore exploitation and therefore the will to laziness.
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#9 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
[QUOTE="BrownNoeser"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] All you can show is that in a capitalist society a citizen would rather loaf than go and do labour which would be exploited. In a Communist society the lazy people would be shamed, it would be socially repugnant to be lazy in the same way peadophillia is socially repugnant today. The reason why laziness is not socially repugnant today is because the upper class can afford to live a lazy lifestyle. Read this: http://marxistphilosophy.org/laziness.pdfrawsavon
The entirety of psychological research on the issues of social loafing, cognitive laziness, and physical laziness say otherwise. Quick analogy: you see a lion do you sit there and determine if the lion is hungry, if it views you as a threat, if it is friendly... NO, you go OH **** -you are cognitively lazy...we all are...is evolutionarily beneficial (our ancestors ran away from the lion) This is also IMO the primary cause of racism You see certain people in an alley at night, dressed a certain way and you think OH **** This same principle applies to physical work

I see now what you mean by cognitive laziness. When you see a lion you do not think, you run i.e. you do physical work. It is evolutionarily beneficial to do work. Do you think we would be here if our ancestors choose not to do work? No everyone worked, nobody even had an idea of what "laziness" was, it only the entered people's minds as an idea when people were able to live off the exploitation of other people. In a Communist Society it would be socially repugnant to be lazy in the same way it is socially repugnant to be a peadophile today. One wants only to be lazy because they desire to live like the modern-day upper class who do live lazily.
Once again...I said none of those quotesrawsavon
I apologise, i'm using "quick-quote" and for some reason it's completely screwing up everything i'm writing when I try and quick-quote more than one person in a single post.
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#10 BrownNoeser
Member since 2009 • 50 Posts
[QUOTE="BrownNoeser"][QUOTE="rawsavon"] So according to you communism=people with no personal goals. Meh...rawsavon
I'm not saying that people wouldn't have goals for their personal well being, I mean that would just be foolish. I'm stating that as far as career goals, or what may have you for success is kind of gone.

No. Communism=/= drones working. Communism is based upon sharing benefits as a if it were a comunal production rather than you are receiving what the owner of the whole apparatus wants. The simplest and clearest example I can give is the little lemonade selling shop that kids make. All share responsibilities and earnings in a fairly "equivalent" form. A little is saved for further expansion and mantainance, but there is no need to stack capital in a single place. Everyone gets benefits and there is a sense of common well. If it can work in a little scale, there is no thing that says it cant work on big scale. Capitalism tends to mass capital in as least hands as possible.

Nicely put.