[QUOTE="Fightingfan"]

[QUOTE="Pirate700"]

While I support the spirit of this thread...what are we supposed to discuss?

TheHighWind

Im pretty sure he wouldn't have been the president if that were true. A lot of people died that day. I've heard all sorts of crap like the explosions came from inside the buildings ect. The fact of the matter is, planes were hijacked and people died. It was a tradgedy.

I'd always side with a religious argument, all things equal, over an atheist argument... just because religious people have something to argue for. Atheism is largely destructive.SolidSnake35

The OP seems confused. Atheists deal with religion religion pushing its way into the free society we live in every day, there's nothing wrong with speaking out against it. I know its difficult to understand we aren't sulking in missery for not having jebus in our lives.

[QUOTE="DigitalExile"]

[QUOTE="Deihjan"] The movie was a rather big mindf***, especially because it deals with so many different aspects of a futuristic world, where the main character is a robot (it's been a while since I last saw it, I can't remember if she's an android or a cyborg) and a cop, and there are several unanswered questions by the end of the film. I still haven't gotten around to watching the other film or the anime series, or reading the manga, but I hope I will some day because it's one of my favourite sci-fi films.Deihjan

I watched the series before the movie (seriously watch the movie). I guess she's a cyborg, but I don't know the definitions. Her brain/mind/soul ("ghost") had been cyberised and her cyberbrain is in a prosthetic body. She's not exactly a robot or android, as the body itself is a medical prosthesis, as far as my understanding goess; it's just really advanced and thus robotic and cybernetic, so it's really the same as a modern day prosthetic limb.

I can't remember the plot of the movie but I think it's answered in the second movie, I haven't seen that though.

This doesn't necessarily mean it was your favorite movie, but I want to know what movies really got you thinking about things, or were extremely in depth. By this I mean a movie that may have made you reflect on human augmentation, parallel universes, ethical dilemas, and other things of that nature. A good example may be Inception. If that didn't screw with your mind at least a little bit, you simply weren't paying attention. Also, as the title suggests, include an anime series/movie if that is the case.

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]

[QUOTE="designer-"] Im international and quite capable of speaking English better then your average. Hell I didnt need to take English for my first year because I got credits from High school. The buddies I knew that did said orientation program were people like me, kids that went to international schools and were well adjusted, not your stereotypical foreign kid that can barely speak English. The only culture shock I had from coming to North America was that the word "sick" could be used in a positive sense. Just to set the record straight on intentional kids, its not like North American society is some grand mystery to anybody..

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But thats not neither here nor there, I simply put that orientation program forward as an example implying that paying to meet friends is a common activity, and specifying that its somehow a bad thing from frats is, I would argue, hypocritical for other things that you do but do not hold in some negative light.

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So a few examples of things that are done in Uni that involve paying for friends/ paying for potential friendships: Orientation programs, meet and greats that you pay for (say a $10 entry fee), pretty much any event that involves socializing with a new group of people that you pay for. The difference may be that you pay for a single event rather then some grand over arching fee for a year but make no mistake this is common practice. But lets take this further, arent you paying for friendship/ potential friendship if you buy someone a beer? The activity is beer drinking but hopefully the point is not alcoholism but rather socializing. Am I paying for sex if I buy a girl a drink and is she a prosi if she accepts it?

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edit for spacing

jonathant5

This didn't address what I've said at all. Regardless of how capable the International student is, they are still just that - an International student. The program you put forward is meant to cater to the needs of International students. That means helping them adapt to everything I previously mentioned. I realize that you're an International student and felt like you were American enough, and you also feel as though others were, but that isn't relevant to the purpose of the program, which is again, to help International students adapt. A frat/sorority however, is not. It's not the same thing, its simply a group of people who are loosely tied to one another under the name of that frat. You are simply paying in order to be a part of that club or circle of people.

The two are not similar in purposes/objectives, I think that's pretty apparent. Keeping this in mind, it isn't at all hypocritical to fault frats for this strange practice but not fault an program for International Students to help them adapt to their new Country and so on (whether you or anyone else needed it, doesn't change the purpose of that program). I also already mentioned that that program has other objectives that are equally important such as helping them with language problems, showing them how to get to the places on campus, around town they need to know, adapting them to the new culture and so on.

As far as your other examples go: I've never heard of a orientation that cost money? We have orientations all the time, and they're completely free. Where in the world are they making you pay for orientation? And aside from that, isn't the objective there fairly obvious? Orientation? So even if you did pay, you're there for the orientation.You also said "pretty much any event that involves socializing with a new group of people" but can you name any for me? You can't really say its a common practice if you haven't provided any specific examples.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make with your beer example. If you buy someone a beer you're making a nice guester towards that person by buying them something that (assumingly) would be refreshing and likeable for them. From this, they may appreciate your geuster and strike up a converstaion with you. But you bought the beer not the person. Would you also consider

Beer:

You-->money-->beer-->endless possibilities (including being ignored, having sex, etc. None of which have a necessary connection to the beer)

Frat:

You-->money-->potential friendship (necessary connection the money was paid specifically, by agreement, for the frienship)

I'd hope you mean if she agreed to consentual sober sex, and not while she's drunk out of her mind and unable to make clear decisions/communicate as that would make you a rapist.

But no, you wouldn't be. Paying for sex, is paying for sex. As paying for friends, is paying for friends in a frat. Paying for someones beer, who then may have sex with you, is not paying for sex. The two things (paying for their beer and then having sex) are in no way even correlated here. How do you know she wouldn't have sex with you regardless of whether or not you got her a beer? There's no necessary connection between the beer and the sex. They're under no obligation to have sex with you or even be your friend. There is no prior agreement between you and that person that the purpose of paying for that beer, is for them to have sex with you. Maybe on your part, but not on hers, if it was on her's as well then that's called prostitution.

Your example is no different than asking if some girl has sex with you because she likes your shoes, which you payed for, is it paying for sex? No, it isn't. Again, paying for sex, is paying for sex.

In a frat however, there is prior agreement that in exchange for your money, you will recieve the friendship (or at least being a part of the group) comradare, access to parties and whatever else. That's what the money is for, nothing else. You have literally payed for friends.

I like how you are not in a frat and are instantly assuming that you pay the money (dues) in order to get in. Thats not correct, we use (at least at my Uni) in order to subsidize the members when it comes to the various events we go to, being it the formals, parties, and the free kegs that we get on a weekly basis during out meetings. The $200 dues are used for that, and maintaining the house when it has to be taken care of. But you clearly hate the frats, for whatever reasons, and although I could imagine some possible reasons (because yeah, most frats have some douche bags in them), most are chill guys who just like to have fun, and are responsible and positive contributors to the campus society at the same time. As for the international thing, have you actually been to any one of these orientations? They dont teach you how to adapt to the new city, or really anything at all (other than what the campus looks like), and really the main reason one would go there is to meet people and make friends. Same thing with Freshmen/1st week orientations, people pay for them in order to have the opportunity to meet new people, have fun, and get laid.

Shouldn't you have stopped yourself from posting this right at the bold? Dues here are about $750-$1200. All of that money is most certainly not used for what you mentioned, some of it (I'm not sure of the exact figures) is simply required to be a part of the club. I'm not sure where you go, but that's pretty cheap (still not anywhere near worth it in my opinion though).

I like how your first line of defense is to specifically call me out as hating frats rather than addressing my argument. But I guess I should expect that from someone in a frat who's clearly a hater of everyone not in a frat, right?

I never said I hate frats necessarily, I just think they're lame and kind of pathetic organizations. The people are hit and miss as far as being douche-bags or not. I know a few cool frat guys, but the large majority are just that - douche-bags. And how in the hell can you make the blanket assertion that the Internation student orientations/programs don't show you around the city or "really anything at all"? I'm going to have to just laugh at that one, on its own merrit as being a unsupported assertion that's just plain wrong, and also because I'm aware that our International Student program does do it.

I'm not aware of these Freshmen orientations that you and the other user are talking about that require money, but here they don't. And even if they did, friends are not the only purpose of them. I don't know how many times I'll have to say this. Regardless of what you want out of it the program itself intentions are oh I don't know, orientation for your school? You can also make friends there sure, and the orientations often try to allow new students to mingle through some kind of activities. But what they don't do is put you and those other people under an agreement that in exchange for the money you paid they will all now be your friends(or potential friends), surround you for most of your college life, associate themselves with you under the same club name, live with you, invite you to exclusive parties, and so on.

Other than the fact that the family has 18 kids..and want more! :o The family also does this cording(sp?) thing. This means not only no sex before marriage, theres also no kissing, or even hand holding before marriage!

There are plenty of people that have values regarding abstinence, which is just fine. But not being able to even hold hands? I wonder how they keep those feelings supressed for all that time. What are your thoughts on this?

(I tried linking the video but errors kept coming up. The video can be found on yahoo.com)

r-teest

[QUOTE="KeitekeTokage"]

[QUOTE="designer-"] I guess its an impass of sorts. In my university we had special orientations for international kids that you pay additional for. It would get you and a few others, show off some of the city and what not and help with the transition of coming from far away. The point though, was to make friends, and you paid for it. Do you hold the same perspective for this program?designer-

No I don't, seeing as their international students who are in need of assistance getting used to reading/writing/speaking/hearing a new language more than likely, as well as adapting to a new culture/food/etc that's often much different than their home country. I also, having said all that, contended that the main purpose was making friends. I'll concede that it's certainly one of the main objectives, but its also on the same scale of importance as the other objectives, which would be helping them adapt to this completely alien world and way of doing things in a variety of ways. I think the differences are pretty clear.

To me, its somewhat like pointing to a able bodied, fit person, using a ramp beside a staircase and calling them lazy for not just using the stairs, and then trying to in the same breath say the guy in a wheel chair who uses it is just as lazy. The two obviously aren't equal even if the guy in the wheel chair isn't entirely paralyzed, and maybe just broke his foot or leg or something. Clearly, the guy in the wheel chair is in much more dire need of the ramp. The able bodied guy can use it sure, but he's still lazy and in nowhere near the same ball park of need of the ramps assistance.

..

But thats not neither here nor there, I simply put that orientation program forward as an example implying that paying to meet friends is a common activity, and specifying that its somehow a bad thing from frats is, I would argue, hypocritical for other things that you do but do not hold in some negative light.

..

So a few examples of things that are done in Uni that involve paying for friends/ paying for potential friendships: Orientation programs, meet and greats that you pay for (say a $10 entry fee), pretty much any event that involves socializing with a new group of people that you pay for. The difference may be that you pay for a single event rather then some grand over arching fee for a year but make no mistake this is common practice. But lets take this further, arent you paying for friendship/ potential friendship if you buy someone a beer? The activity is beer drinking but hopefully the point is not alcoholism but rather socializing. Am I paying for sex if I buy a girl a drink and is she a prosi if she accepts it?

..

edit for spacing

This didn't address what I've said at all. Regardless of how capable the International student is, they are still just that - an International student. The program you put forward is meant to cater to the needs of International students. That means helping them adapt to everything I previously mentioned. I realize that you're an International student and felt like you were American enough, and you also feel as though others were, but that isn't relevant to the purpose of the program, which is again, to help International students adapt. A frat/sorority however, is not. It's not the same thing, its simply a group of people who are loosely tied to one another under the name of that frat. You are simply paying in order to be a part of that club or circle of people.

The two are not similar in purposes/objectives, I think that's pretty apparent. Keeping this in mind, it isn't at all hypocritical to fault frats for this strange practice but not fault an program for International Students to help them adapt to their new Country and so on (whether you or anyone else needed it, doesn't change the purpose of that program). I also already mentioned that that program has other objectives that are equally important such as helping them with language problems, showing them how to get to the places on campus, around town they need to know, adapting them to the new culture and so on.

As far as your other examples go: I've never heard of a orientation that cost money? We have orientations all the time, and they're completely free. Where in the world are they making you pay for orientation? And aside from that, isn't the objective there fairly obvious? Orientation? So even if you did pay, you're there for the orientation.You also said "pretty much any event that involves socializing with a new group of people" but can you name any for me? You can't really say its a common practice if you haven't provided any specific examples.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make with your beer example. If you buy someone a beer you're making a nice guester towards that person by buying them something that (assumingly) would be refreshing and likeable for them. From this, they may appreciate your geuster and strike up a converstaion with you. But you bought the beer not the person. Would you also consider

Beer:

You-->money-->beer-->endless possibilities (including being ignored, having sex, etc. None of which have a necessary connection to the beer)

Frat:

You-->money-->potential friendship (necessary connection the money was paid specifically, by agreement, for the frienship)

I'd hope you mean if she agreed to consentual sober sex, and not while she's drunk out of her mind and unable to make clear decisions/communicate as that would make you a rapist.

But no, you wouldn't be. Paying for sex, is paying for sex. As paying for friends, is paying for friends in a frat. Paying for someones beer, who then may have sex with you, is not paying for sex. The two things (paying for their beer and then having sex) are in no way even correlated here. How do you know she wouldn't have sex with you regardless of whether or not you got her a beer? There's no necessary connection between the beer and the sex. They're under no obligation to have sex with you or even be your friend. There is no prior agreement between you and that person that the purpose of paying for that beer, is for them to have sex with you. Maybe on your part, but not on hers, if it was on her's as well then that's called prostitution.

Your example is no different than asking if some girl has sex with you because she likes your shoes, which you payed for, is it paying for sex? No, it isn't. Again, paying for sex, is paying for sex.

In a frat however, there is prior agreement that in exchange for your money, you will recieve the friendship (or at least being a part of the group) comradare, access to parties and whatever else. That's what the money is for, nothing else. You have literally payed for friends.

I'm in one and it was the greatest decision I ever made

People who think it's paying for friends are uninformed. I have friends outside the frat that I see and brothers inside. They're totally different relationships. I wouldn't expect people not in a fraternity to understand that. In fact no one outside a fraternity can understand just how powerful a fraternity is.

Toriko42