[QUOTE="SonKev"]

The "option" to disobey and to actually "sin" are two different subjects/things...

Your basis is going off the "fact" that they are. I believe sin to be a "rebellion" against God in which you for example like following laws now a days where sometimes its easier to fall short and break a law. Why we need peace officers in the first place to enforce them, just like breaking one of God's laws their are penalties

GabuEx

But God created Adam and Eve. That means everything within Adam and Eve was there because God created it. Adam and Eve sinned against God. They would only have done so if they had the desire to sin against God. Therefore, the desire to sin against God was present in Adam and Eve. Therefore, God created the desire to sin.

If we accept that God created absolutely everything, the existence of sin is always, ultimately, traced back to God. There is no escaping that basic fact. Whatever path led to the existence of sin, God must have ultimately created it if he created everything.

Among from me being able to argue the point even further and to the point i like this quote, "A world fallen and redeemed is better than a world that never fell at all." implying freewill > over ... you know

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="beatifuleyes"]

Hello Chimera. I mentioned in my response to Tamale that we don't need words to describe the absence of belief in God. All Atheism says is there's no evidence for such a being. There is no system.

beatifuleyes

Hello!

I think Genetic_Code said it well. I'm arguing for weak atheism but i'm not sure i would like to seperate the words like that. I think there is a middle ground where words like this aren't needed because everybody in this world has to be honost with themselves as you said. You can be a militant atheist or a fundamental christian but you have to have a concern that you can be wrong. All agnosticism says is the uncertainty of all claims to ultimate knowledge or the first principles are unattainable. The fact that we don't know there is a unseen world or a God are because of the necessary limts of the human mind or because of the insufficieny of evidence.

The truth is agnostics and atheists aren't different. This is precisely why i keep saying that such words are not necessary. An atheist may not believe in God and an agnostic may not be sure, butthey most certainly, in every and any occasion, will not claim that he or she has the knowledge of knowing.

Never does the atheist say he knows there is no God.

I really like the way you put it, especially the last sentence...

[QUOTE="SonKev"]

The "option" to disobey and to actually "sin" are two different subjects/things...

Your basis is going off the "fact" that they are. I believe sin to be a "rebellion" against God in which you for example like following laws now a days where sometimes its easier to fall short and break a law. Why we need peace officers in the first place to enforce them, just like breaking one of God's laws their are penalties

GabuEx

But God created Adam and Eve. That means everything within Adam and Eve was there because God created it. Adam and Eve sinned against God. They would only have done so if they had the desire to sin against God. Therefore, the desire to sin against God was present in Adam and Eve. Therefore, God created the desire to sin.

If we accept that God created absolutely everything, the existence of sin is always, ultimately, traced back to God. There is no escaping that basic fact. Whatever path led to the existence of sin, God must have ultimately created it if he created everything.

no no no. lol

He created "desire" not desire TO sin, but you can also say he created the capability to resist. Which is very easy to see and provable in todays world.

and also, the snake tempted Eve... (i wouldnt say she only went off desire....)

[QUOTE="SonKev"]

[QUOTE="scorch-62"]Using that logic, God indirectly created sin.

GabuEx

He created the option to disobey him, true love requires freewill. Or else we would just be robots...

But here's the problem I always have with that: having the option to do something is not the same as having the desire to do it. At any moment, any given human has the option to murder any other human with whom they're in contact. They don't do so, however, because they don't want to.

If the story in Genesis is literally true, then not only did God create the option to sin, he also created the desire to sin, because otherwise Adam and Eve obviously would not have bothered if they didn't want to sin in the first place. Humanity would still have perfectly good free will if they had the option to sin but no desire to do so - they would be forever choosing out of their own volition not to sin.

In law enforcement, creating the desire to do something where there previously existed no such desire, and then arresting someone when they act on that desire, is known as entrapment. :P

The "option" to disobey and to actually "sin" are two different subjects/things...

Your basis is going off the "fact" that they are. I believe sin to be a "rebellion" against God in which you for example like following laws now a days where sometimes its easier to fall short and break a law. Why we need peace officers in the first place to enforce them, just like breaking one of God's laws their are penalties

[QUOTE="SonKev"]

[QUOTE="xaos"] I appreciate that, but I am perfectly content with my life. And I should add my above gripes are with God, not with those who believe in Him, so I am not at all trying to put down those who follow Him.xaos

Yeah i'm sorry i shouldnt have added that 2nd part, my feelings got the better of me...

Haha ya np bro, talking in real life is way more understanding lol

[QUOTE="SonKev"]

I'm sorry he wont make some la la land for you to go frolick in...

xaos

By the way I meant in my statement "de afterlife" :P

[QUOTE="SonKev"]

I'm sorry he wont make some la la land for you to go frolick in...

xaos

Yeah i'm sorry i shouldnt have added that 2nd part, my feelings got the better of me...

[QUOTE="Staszy"]god didn't want robots, he wanted people to make there own choicesxaos

Having the "image" or "likeness" of God means, in the simplest terms, that we were made to resemble God.

[QUOTE="Staszy"]god didn't want robots, he wanted people to make there own choicesxaos

God cannot be with sin, hell is just the absence of being with Him...

I'm sorry he wont make some la la land for you to go frolick in...

[QUOTE="Staszy"][QUOTE="X4D"]If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth? Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?scorch-62

He created the option to disobey him, true love requires freewill. Or else we would just be robots...