[QUOTE="narlymech"] Nah, im to lazy. I suggest you look it up.Mousetaches

You of all people should not be giving tips on the proper method of arguing, seeing as how this post employs argumentum ad hominem ("I suggest you learn how to argue"). At the very least, stay on topic and be courteous.

It would be nice if everyone agreed to a similar definition of socialism, for it seems as though their is some confusion to the actual meaning of the term. For someone such as myself, who does not wish to partake in the discussion, but only wants to spectate, it's a bit tedious to follow the arguments when their is so much undue anger, circular arguments, and irrelevant points being thrown around.

[QUOTE="HUGE_Flavor"]

thank you Mr. Obama. At this rate we'll no doubt become just like Greece.

the_new_guy_92

The majority of the nations apart of the E.U., which are more socialist than the U.S., boast surprisingly good standards of living while, at the same time, they rely heavily upon corrupt, fascist, international corporations for their wealth. This is to say nothing of the industrialized nation's maltreatment of the third-world, which allows the industrialized nations to have their such high standard of living.

This same kind of pompus attitude and arrogance is the reasoning that has been used in just about every piece of liesure activity that people disagree with... What benchmarks are we posting for video games? Are you aware that video games is alot like reading books? That just saying reading books is too vague on what exactly you are reading.. Many video games outside of being a liesure activity can promote literacy in the fact of long readings, be historical based, or stress a persons problem solving capabilities.. Just who here is deciding what is backward, what is useless etc etc? This is the kind of logic that was used by the United States government in the early 1900s and during the 1800s in passing the most brutal policies towards Native Americans.. Because we had to "civilize" them ecause clearly their way of life and culture were "backward, degenerate and unproductive".

sSubZerOo

I can't believe that you think my attitude towards video-games is anywhere comparable to the attitude responsible for the systematic depopulation and mass murder of the Native Americans. I find it offensive, and you would do better to refrain from making those outrageous, tactless assertions.

On to your argument:

1.) "Video-games are a lot like reading books"

I believe you are referring to "some" video-games, for many video-games do not have any semblance of writing at all. Certainly, most video-games created before the 1990s lacked any writing whatsoever besides some of the deep RPGs created during that decade such as Wizardry, Might and Magic, and Wasteland. The 1990s, due to the lack of technology and disc space, required writing in place of spoken dialog. This is most certainly true for the RPG genre, which hitherto the beginning of the millenium were notorious for long dialog and hundreds of pages of written words. Planescape: Torment and Ultima 7 certainly spring to mind with their seemingly endless pages of writing and dialog. However, in this decade, video-games, especially RPGs, lack the same length of writing found in those RPGs. Furthermore, I have yet to find an RPG or video-game that sports the same quality writing found in most books that I've read. Really, the quality of writing in video-games is shameful to say the least. The writing is typically reminiscent of the writing found in any issue of Reader's Digest, meaning that the writing is just as conducive towards literacy as say any relative pop mag.

If I wanted to bolster literacy in my child, I wouldn't tell him to play Planescape Torment or Fallout. I'd say, "Start out with Homer and Vergil, then make your way to Dante and Milton with some guidance."

2.) "Video-games can stress a person's problem solving skills"

Many things which do not include excessive violence, gore, and which trivialize death can boost a person's problem solving skills while at the same time providing a real-world basis for those skills. Certainly, any book on mathematics can do this, but discourse and debate can do just the same. When a person is frequently accosted with views different from his own, which he needs to address, he is using those dialectic skills borne from logic and reasoning to provide a reasonable argument. Music, especially contrapuntal music, requires a lot of critical thought and problem solving to make certain that all the different melodies create one, harmonious, complex fugue or chaconne or what have you, which also does not include gratuitous violence and gore found in video-games, television, and some of our music.

3.) "Just who here is deciding what is backward and what is useless"

I am merely the opposition to those who are deciding what "isn't" backward and useless. I am no authority, nor do I have any power in deciding what you can and can't do. I'm simply disagreeing with you.

In the time spent playing video-games, one could further his mathematical, dialectic, and rhetoric skills; or be increasing his skill at a particular instrument; or learn to draw, paint, and/or do ceramics; or do rock-climbing, swimming, a sport. He could be furthering his intellect. More importantly, in the time spent playing video-games, a person could be spending his time in the real-world, making himself a better person and helping those around him to do the same.

I used to be one, I'd say I'm more of a centrist now. I like liberals more than conservatives, because they actually feel sympathy for other people, while to me conservatives are a bit more selfish. But then there are other things; a 16 year old shouldn't be allowed to drink, I'm sorry (I can't believe I used to agree with that). And handing out condoms to students? wtf.... But conservatives are equally crazy to me, if not more so. A mix of both is good.Famiking

Well, the thing is this. I don't think the government should be mandating a drinking age, nor do I think students shouldn't be given condoms. That is not to say I think students in High School should be having sex, certainly not as much as statistics are indicating, and I don't think irresponsible people should be given beer and alcohol, but I believe this power of deciding what kids should be doing ultimately resides in the hands of the parents themselves, and not the government.

The word liberal has certainly taken a whole different meaning in todays political world. Before, it meant anyone who believed in individual freedom, the freedom to do as you want and for others to do as they wish. Really, the farthest of the farthest liberals would most aptly be called anarchists, but for some reason they are typically compared to communists which is almost on the other end of the spectrum, unless were talking socialist anarchism.

I consider myself to be strongly liberal. I support the right of gay-marriage*, abortion*(the star indicates that I do not support these things on a moral point, but I don't think the government or myself should be allowed to restrict these rights for those who disagree), equality between all races and sex, and many other things. I find myself all the time disagreeing with the democrats as well as the republicans, and I would like to see a much smaller government as well as more civil participation on behalf of the citizens. We can't have a healthy republic (indeed that is what our country is, not a democracy, unless we're talking indirect democracy) if the people aren't actively participating. That will arguably lead to tyranny.

[QUOTE="TheAbbeFaria"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] They aren't the only ones at fault, but they do hold some degree of responsibility and are in many ways complicit to this oppression, because their choice is making it impossible to distinguish between the free and the oppressed. -Sun_Tzu-

Why is it important to be able to identify those who are oppressed by their husbands and who aren't?

But that's not how things work. We don't have people who actively seek out those who are oppressed by their husbands, so why would we do that for Muslims?

[QUOTE="Hewkii"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Restricting someone's liberty is justified when that liberty is allowing them to harm others. If you don't agree with that line of reasoning then you cannot really believe in laws at all, because all laws, by their very nature, restrict some type of freedom. -Sun_Tzu-

Why is it important to be able to identify those who are oppressed by their husbands and who aren't?

I really don't see how anything he said was "in poor taste" or "horrible." Haiti has been one of the most poverty-stricken countries in the world for quite some time now, and how many times has the news or anyone brought attention to it? President Obama says "You wont be forgotten; you wont be forsaken", yet why didn't he say this long before the earthquake? I think, had not the earthquake been so destructive, this would have been forgotten, and they would have been forsaken as they have always been.

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]If there are some in the Islamic community that are prepared to resort to violence over this, we shouldn't be intimated by that. We shouldn't just tolerate their intolerance just because that might upset some people in the Islamic community. Hewkii

I also believe that this is an act of oppression against the Muslim culture. I don't know that I have much evidence to convince anyone else of my conviction, but it looks like this is the case, not just in France but in all the industrialized nations. Just like the Native Americans and the African-Americans, the Arab world, now in the shattered state it is in, is being taken advantage of and systematically destroyed by the Western powers under the guise of terrorism and freedom.