[QUOTE="italianstud18"]Since your entire argument hinges on it, if you are saying that that is completely unverifiable, so is everything you are deriving from it :\ How can any argument state anything dealing with infinities and timelessness as fact, due to our human limitations? I was only pointing out a possibility that would show that the belief in an omnicient/timeless God is not contradictinary to free will. Also, that our finite limitations could easily be causing some to see a contradiction between the two.No, a huge assumption would be assuming that my argument was not possible, I never did and no one could ever claim it was fact (besides God due to his different perspective if it was infact fact :))
xaos
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Omniscience refers to infinite knowledge, which as I argue directly relates to God knowing all possible paths/outcomes (infinite possibilities) due to free will and not specific predetermined outcomes.[QUOTE="italianstud18"]
Then, if God does know all of the choices that I will make, then we are back to square one:
[QUOTE="italianstud18"]
[QUOTE="xaos"]Control, no; choice, also no. If the decision is known before you ever consider it, or before you ever existed, you literally have no choice in the matter. If God "knows" I will choose to have an apple after work today, I am absolutely bound to have an apple after work today. I know this is a matter of philosophical difference, but I do not see how people are able to believe in divine omniscience and free will as compatible concepts.GabuEx
I also argue, that you are limiting the infinite knowledge if you assume an omniscient being only knows finite outcomes.
This entire argument spawned from you arguing against the idea that God knows what the choices are that people will make, which you have now seemingly agreed with.
I never claimed that God didnt know what choices people will make, but rather that it did not interfere with the idea of free will, (if you look back, all my posts in this thread have followed from that main idea)Ok, a being of infinite knowledge knows what will happen if a choice if made, but to a timeless being there is no such thing as a particular choice being made for all possibilities of each particular choice is made. So God in essence not only knows everything that will happen but in God's perspective everything happens. It is only in our own specific perspective that one set of events happen. Depending on what choices you choose to make, changes what particular set of events you are following out of the infinite amount of sets of events that God knows and percieves.[QUOTE="italianstud18"]
[QUOTE="GabuEx"]
Knowing what will happen if a choice is made is not the same as knowing whether that choice was made. That I know what will happen if I do something does not mean that I did whatever it was. What I actually do is entirely separate from what will happen if I do X, Y, or Z.
So, again: does or does not God know the choices that I will make?
GabuEx
It's a yes or no question.
If you're saying that there is no difference to God between one choice or another, then the answer is no, because if the answer were yes, then a distinction could be made between the choice I make and the choices that I don't make (that distinction being "chosen" and "not chosen").
So, you're telling me that, no, God does not know which choice I personally will make.
Is that your final answer?
The choices you make and dont make fall into different sets of choices, so there is a distinction between the them (in God's outside perspective). You only are only aware of one set of choices that you are choseing to follow, hence the free will.I have told you multiple times that God does know which choices you make.
So the answer to your question is yes.
No, a huge assumption would be assuming that my argument was not possible, I never did and no one could probably ever claim it was fact (besides God due to his different perspective if it was infact fact :))
[QUOTE="italianstud18"]Weaselly argument is weaselly :( That is the trouble with trying to debate an issue dealing with infinities and timelessness because our own mind/body is both not infinite or timeless in any way. This is why, many people in various religions rely among faith.As soon as you or anyone or thing makes any changes (could be your own choices), that would branch into multiple paths. God would know where all those paths lead. So you would still be making the choice through free will, but God already knows all the various outcomes. So, yes God does know the specific set of choices you will make, but he also knows all the other sets as well. To Him there is no difference between the (in our limited perspective of time and reality) "actual" set you follow and all the others.
I am suggesting that to God, there are infinite "actual" sets.
It is only us that percieves one "actual" set.
xaos
With our finite logic, I am only suggesting that it is reasonable that infinities are explained by infinite terms rather than finite terms (hence the suggestion that infinite knowledge provides knowledge of infinite events and timelessness (infinite time in our perspective) allows for an infinite amount of concurring events)
Ok, a being of infinite knowledge knows what will happen if a choice if made, but to a timeless being there is no such thing as a particular choice being made for all possibilities of each particular choice is made. So God in essence not only knows everything that will happen but in God's perspective everything happens. It is only in our own specific perspective that one set of events happen. Depending on what choices you choose to make, changes what particular set of events you are following out of the infinite amount of sets of events that God knows and percieves.Knowing what will happen if a choice is made is not the same as knowing whether that choice was made. That I know what will happen if I do something does not mean that I did whatever it was. What I actually do is entirely separate from what will happen if I do X, Y, or Z.
So, again: does or does not God know the choices that I will make?
GabuEx
So to more directly anseer your question:
in our perspective, your own personal existence in our precieved reality, God knows what choices you will make. This does not limit your free will because in God's perspective, he knows an infinite number of choices you will make. God is not limited it to once set of choices which means he does not eliminate the free will that he gave through love.
Side Note:
He wants us to accept Him even though we have the free will to not accept Him. Isn't it a more pure form of love if an individual has free will and chooses to love God rather than just being forced to love Him? I think that is the point of the instantution and existence of free will.
[QUOTE="italianstud18"]a being of infinite knowledge would know all the choices an individual will make. It is limiting the knowledge of a being of infinite knowledge saying they only know of one particular set of choices of an individual (that a being with finite knowledge could percieve to be the only one "true" set).GabuEx
We're talking about one single individual with one single path through life. If there are an infinite number of multiverses in which instances of me are making different choices, they are not me as an individual, because I am not they; I am me and only me.
I am asking about me, myself, and I, me as an individual, the specific instance of me existing in what we know as reality - does God know the choices that I personally will be making in my life?
As soon as you or anyone or thing makes any changes (could be your own choices), that would branch into multiple paths. God would know where all those paths lead. So you would still be making the choice through free will, but God already knows all the various outcomes. So, yes God does know the specific set of choices you will make, but he also knows all the other sets as well. To Him there is no difference between the (in our limited perspective of time and reality) "actual" set you follow and all the others.I am suggesting that to God, there are infinite "actual" sets.
It is only us that percieves one "actual" set.
[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]I don't have a BA light cycle for one.GabuEx
Har har. :P
I think you are getting at the idea that a being with infinite knowledge (omniscient being) would know the true path for every person. I submit to you, that for a being with infinite knowledge, all possible paths he knows for an individual are all "true" paths. What makes any particular path true for the individual (not the omniscient being) is the choices they choose to make.italianstud18
Does, or does not, the omniscient being know what choices every individual will make?
a being of infinite knowledge would know all the choices an individual will make. It is limiting the knowledge of a being of infinite knowledge saying they only know of one particular set of choices of an individual (that a being with finite knowledge could percieve to be the only one "true" set).[QUOTE="italianstud18"]I think you are getting at the idea that a being with infinite knowledge (omniscient being) would know the true path for every person. I submit to you, that for a being with infinite knowledge, all possible paths he knows for an individual are all "true" paths. What makes any particular path true for the individual (not the omniscient being) is the choices they choose to make.xaosYou are arguing that a choice that is not made has the same objective validity and ontological substance as one that is made? That is, umm, an interesting argument, I guess... I am just using our limited finite logic to try to guess about a being with infinite knowledge. I do not think it is unreasonable to assume the possibility of a being of infinite knowledge knowing an infinite number of correct answers to a question (or in this case, the particular path a person makes).
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