[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"][QUOTE="GabuEx"] Excuse my rediculous analogy coming up. It is required to get this point across.

Unless of course god, at the point of creation, at the same time of creating everything created a version of himself which would be presented to humans, at which the same point in 'time' he immediately transported to the end of time. Eh, screw it , trying to add logic to a timeless being is just too troublesome.GabuEx

Well, here, here's an analogy that I think is not too ridiculous, but which also gets my point across. Suppose I create a computer program. I am effectively God with respect to the computer program, in that before I even start it, I can effectively flatten time and determine precisely what the path is that this program will take. I then start it, and it obviously follows that path that I knew it would take.

If God does indeed know precisely how the universe will go, just as I know precisely how that computer program will go, then what is the difference: how are humans not effectively part of a grand computer program, simply following their predetermined paths through life that God was aware of from the very beginning?

If you are looking at this from the perspective of a timeless omniscient being (for many believe God is), then there is no such thing as at the end of the day. Also a timeless being could view a person (who is within the limits of time) doing two mutually exclusive things. This is possible due to the person not experienceing the two mutually exclusive things, but rather the timeless being viewing/knowing the person doing two mutually exclusive things.

-man, stupid quote got messed up

italianstud18

Even if God does not exist in time, he surely is nonetheless aware of time, and thus heought to be able toknow what, in our reality, every path that every single human will take, right?

Thinking that there is only one possible or "true" path is thinking in finite terms, surely it is possible that a being with infinite knowledge would not be bound by only one "true" path.

Think of it as the concept of infinite dimensions that branch off at every incremental change due to free will. Then think of an idea of an omniscient timless being viewing/knowing all the infinte dimensions as they happen within the time limits of each dimension, but all at one moment for the timeless being itself.

[QUOTE="italianstud18"]I said that an Omniscient being would know that path that each individual will take, you are limiting it to only knowing the finite one path.GabuEx

But... at the end of the day, every single person will follow one path and only one path, considering that one cannot do two mutually exclusive actions.

No?

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]

If you are looking at this from the perspective of a timeless omniscient being (for many believe God is), then there is no such thing as at the end of the day. Also a timeless being could view a person (who is within the limits of time) doing two mutually exclusive things. This is possible due to the person not experienceing the two mutually exclusive things, but rather the timeless being viewing/knowing the person doing two mutually exclusive things.

-man, stupid quote got messed up

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="Vandalvideo"]Yup, but if you are trying to get at it being pre-determined, that presumes that God has a preception of time, and he really pre----conceived it before it happened.Vandalvideo

In thinking about it, I suppose that is actually a fair argument, but it would be impossible for the Genesis account to be literally true if God did not have a perception of time, considering that God is depicted as interacting with Adam and Eve as an entity existing within time and space - which is one of the biggest problems I have with it being presented as a literal account, in fact.

[QUOTE="italianstud18"]

Basically, I am just argueing that the point that an omniscient being does not allow free will to be possible is wrong. This is due to fact that Omniscient refers to infinite knowledge, so it is within logic to believe that with inifinite knowledge, an Omniscient being can know the infinite paths/outcomes made by choices through free will.

Whether or not you believe in an Omniscient God, is up to you. I am only explaining through logic how my own belief is possible and not contradicting.

All these edits to make sure my point comes across right :)

GabuEx

Wouldn't infinite knowledge also include not only the knowledge of all those paths, but also the knowledge of which path each individual will take?

Basically, I am just argueing that the point that an omniscient being does not allow free will to be possible is wrong. This is due to fact that Omniscient refers to infinite knowledge, so it is within logic to believe that with inifinite knowledge, an Omniscient being can know the infinite paths/outcomes made by choices through free will.

Whether or not you believe in an Omniscient God, is up to you. I am only explaining through logic how my own belief is possible and not contradicting.

All these edits to make sure my point comes across right :)

[QUOTE="THEmissHannah"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] No, predestination obviously implies a lack of choice.

If God knows your fate before you even exists, then it logically follows that you do not have the power to alter your own 'destiny', for if you did have a 'choice', which was not already predetermined, then God should haveno way of knowing the future.

Omniscience is absolutely irreconcilable with the concept of free will.

comp_atkins

[QUOTE="LikeHaterade"]

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"]You cannot alter the choice because you already made the choiceyou can't alter it because this "god" is omniscient and already knows the outcomexaos

I could easily alter a choice. Just because God knows when I may do so does not mean I do not have a choice. God knowing the decisions that I make =\= control.

I also argue, that you are limiting the infinite knowledge if you assume an omniscient being only knows finite outcomes.

[QUOTE="italianstud18"]

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"] but HE STILL KNOWS what you're going to DO, that INCLUDES if you're going to turn his back on him, you still make that choice but the argument is that an OMNISCIENT god already KNOWS the outcome and that you can't alter itlonewolf604

No, your assuming that an omniscient god only knows the outcome, we are arguing that God knows all the paths as well as outcomes, but it is us that chooses which ones.

[QUOTE="THEmissHannah"][QUOTE="MetalGear_Ninty"] No, predestination obviously implies a lack of choice.

If God knows your fate before you even exists, then it logically follows that you do not have the power to alter your own 'destiny', for if you did have a 'choice', which was not already predetermined, then God should haveno way of knowing the future.

Omniscience is absolutely irreconcilable with the concept of free will.

lonewolf604

No, your assuming that an omniscient god only knows the outcome, we are arguing that God knows all the paths as well as outcomes, but it is us that chooses which ones.