I know we have two already from Gamepro and PSW, but I'm still waiting on some better sources (GS, IGN, 1up come to mind haha). Does anyone know when we should expect some more reviews flowing in?

GS gave 50 Cent a 7.0, while Halo Wars scored a 6.5 obviously.

By GS's standards, 50 Cent is a better game than Halo Wars.

Discuss.

[QUOTE="Sword-Demon"]

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

verbalfilth

You pointed out the one thing I wrote that I actually had trouble deciding for myself. How does one classify art, and where do you draw the line? I still don't know whether to consider a game like, say, Left 4 Dead as art. Great game, but is it art? I don't know. While I agree that anything someone puts work into could be construed as art, I don't think it necessarily is. For example, any average movie cash-in game. Or a game like Madden 09, which is (while incredibly fun) still almost exactly the same as it has been for six years. It's hard for me to view these as art. If a writer just writes based on a generic, premade template (like a movie cash in in video games) is it art? Or if a writer writes effectively the same story over and over, is it art (Redwall, certain Stephen King novels...)? It could be, like I said, I'm not sure. However, as it is, I'm leaning towards being more critical when judging if something is art or not. Still, you make a great point, one that I can't say I entirely disagree with.

If video games are art, as you say, then why haven't attitudes changed, as you suggest?

It's not for lack of trying. There are some very insightful games that experiment with the medium in interesting ways. Video games even have their own field of academic study ("ludology"). Games have even been used as the basis of art projects, and some works created by artists have been demonstrated in galleries.

For games to become more accepted, they need to become more diverse and approachable to markets that gaming currently doesn't tend to reach, except as toys. If the reach of titles like Bejeweled, Peggle, or Wii Sports is to be counted, then gaming already has very widespread acceptance. If not, titles of greater emotional complexity need to be produced that reach the hearts and minds of women and adults in ways that don't rest on violence and aggression. One could argue that this took place with The Sims, even, or, to reach further back, with Myst.

I'm all for arguing for the sake of arguing, but the 'games as art' debate is one I find very, very tiring, because for it to have any value, it's a definitions argument that rarely progresses beyond that.

sonicmj1

Just because attitudes haven't changed doesn't mean that video games aren't art. Most famous artists weren't famous until they were dead and well into the future, was their work not art until it was discovered? Does something need widespread approval to be considered art? I don't think so.

I also agree with you on about everything else you said. As I mentioned, video games like Wii Sports are trying, and working to some extent. But Wii Sports isn't what I would view as art (although art really is subjective). And yes, I agree that to reach widespread approval you need games that appeal to the masses that aren't already reached (women and adults as you said). However, widespread approval does not necessarily go hand in hand with art. While someone like Shakespeare is known worldwide and approved of for his art, plenty would claim that Tupac isn't an artist. Oftentimes, peoples' perception of him is as some gangbanger who got lucky and cashed in. However, when you read some of his lyrics you see that he really does have deep and meaningful lyrics.

So really I agree with the evidence you use to build your argument, but I have to disagree with your conclusion, that games somehow need to be widespread to become art. My logic in my original post was that if games BECAME art, they would be more likely to become widespread through all demographics.

And since you defied me to do it: Fallout 3 isn't art. While Beth did a great job with the graphics and atmosphere of the game, but as I said in my previous post a game is the sum of its parts, and the gameplay and writing in Fallout 3 simply aren't good enough. The scaling enemies don't work due to the variety of weapons (ie you can go from fighting raiders with hunting rifles to raiders with rocket launchers in a heartbeat), the FPS elements are weak and I found much of the writing to be hackneyed. A good game, but not good enough for me to consider it art.PBSnipes

I would entirely agree that a game is as good as the sum of its parts. However, that philosophy doesn't apply to art in my opinion. The movie No Country For Old Men had awkward pacing and plot structure (for example, SPOILERS!!! The protagonist trying to take down the serial killer gets killed randomly by a group of thugs instead of having the usual climactic battle with the antagonist END SPOILERS!!!). However, these slight faults (at least when being compared to a traditional movie) are irrelevant when you look at what the movie brings, which is (arguably) a masterpiece.

On the same strand of thought, I could find faults in any video game. Braid was very short, Bioshock's combat was a bit clunky and a bit repetitive, etc. No game, movie, or anything is perfect, and therefore I don't believe an item HAS to be perfect to be art. Fallout 3's landscapes and atmosphere were enough to classify it as art in my mind, and minor faults don't detract from that in my opinion.

oh god... who do you think is going to read that wall of text?

Sword-Demon

I'm expecting almost nobody to read this. Honestly, I probably wouldn't want to read that if I was just surfing the web. However, if you don't want to read it then consider it for the few people who will, of which there are guaranteed to be some (of the thousands that read this message board, sometimes even without posting).

I would be remiss if I didn't bring up this topic for discussion for those who do read it, especially since I really do believe video games as art is a more relevant issue than people give credit to.

Additionally, forgot to mention, as stated in the post PLEASE respond. I want to hear other opinions and discussion on this, as it's something I believe is too little discussed.

And also, sorry for the unfortunate "wall of text" effect. Impossible to avoid with that much writing.