tachikoma679's forum posts
[QUOTE="tachikoma679"]
well dont forget im new here i have no knowledge of this union quite honestly i wasnt sure what to expect i had ideas and it isnt quite as bad as i had antcipated it could of been. and i agree GS off topic is rotten with modding religious topics.... while i think you two were bouncing back and forth and just and just as guilty as question dodging still pulling the im going to edit posts in the middle of a sensitive topic hurts your claims to being open and if i was android i probably would be ticked if you said it to me too as often as you seemed to say it because if you truely want to understand our religion there are topics that do violate TOS including one i just got modded for off topic concerning a very basic bible story cain and abel so you must allow room for this kind of stuff. again i dont know your history here pal.RationalAtheist
Thanks for the compliment to the union there!
In thinking its not as bad as you thought, aren't you letting on about your pre-suppositions in discussing stuff here?
I'm aware that you're new, since your post count is low and I've posted here for ages without meeting you. None the less - your contributions here are as valid and valuable as anyone elses. You don't have to be a member to post here and don't have to agree with atheism either.
I hate to be accused of question-dodging without reason. Do let me know any questions you think I've dodged and I'll be as direct as I can in answering them. You can't really apply your religion's terms of service to this union - that would be unfair to us. It would mean topics that your religion shies away from would always be disallowed. If we extended that to every religion and all their TOS rules, the atheism union would become a barren and desolate place where nothing could get discussed at all.
Not knowing peoples' histories is all part of engaging in debate with them. Most people get to know others (in some ways) through debating with them and not just by agreeing with them.
well i changed user names so ive been around for a while. that said yes i was expect full blown religion is retarded crap and ive seen some of it but ive seen some that isnt too bad. and keep in mind as far as religions go the LDS church faces probably the most unfair scrunity out there next to the jews. we get blasted for the most retarded things ever and its very common to get defensive fast simply because if we dont we get torn apart by the most ridiculous gang banging points of view ever conceived...honestly ive heard it all. even heard some dude say mormons have horns we can shoot in and out our heads at will seriously? and somehow people think despite our name including CHrist in it we dont beleive in anybody called Christ honestly here....it gets absurd. and i can guarantee you android sense converting has received utter hell from some people hes known for it heck my one friend i got him to join at least briefly received nothing but laughter at work for it....honestly its stupid yet if he had joined say seascoast a local church the bapistist the aithest and the catholic all would of supported him but oh no mormons watch those guys they have devil horns....so please understand our relgion suffers from the most ridiculous mocking invented but ill concede first place the jews who have been hated since time began probably.could be any number of things....my mom is a convert one of her big things the book of mormon's history and explanation of the indians in america. others really see at first and love the families forever thing. others simply get overwhelmed by a testimony from reading the book of mormon. others simply are attracted because logically it makes sense and lacks the inherent plotholes in other religions it really is indivual. and yes im open to other faiths coming to church what kind of person would i be i rejected you based on background? my background aint so hot either and ya know the whole idea is to get to know God yourself since he is your Father in heaven so like your father in real life each of his kids has a different relationship with him. you do have to be open to accepting it though i know it sounds silly and all but its a key you gotta come to church willing to accept it or open to the fact that this could be the truth not assuming ah its just another church it cant do anything for me attitude aka willing to give it a chance. well im not sure voting them out fixes the damage that has been done as instantly as one might hope....and i dont know americans are getting slacker and dumber by the minute it seems some of us are still smart and awake to the problem or perhaps i suppose america must be to brink of falling as ive stated before. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]I guess what I was asking are what are the certain aspects of the faith that people latch on to. What do you mean by "open", as in it depending on how open people are? Does it mean "willing to accept"? If so, isn't that a dangerous prospect? After all, you could be accpting anything. Being open to other faiths too would only serve to confuse.
RationalAtheist
Doesn't that show your modern revelation was set very much in an 1800s North American view of the world. If God created the world, why pick out one country for special treatment? I can understand the punishment post-death of a vengeful God, but there has been so much vengance against innocents all over the world in this life for a belief in any sort of benevolence from a Heavenly Father when I die. If you have corrupt politicians, you can vote them out. In the UK, we sent 4 MPs to trial last week for fiddling their expenses. We also have a new government after 13 years, so the politicians are still relatively uncorrupted in their roles.
and no proves the opposite it proves God is the same today yesterday and forever by means of modern revelation as despite what other Christian faiths may claim that revelation is dead. that very same book the bible says God is the same today yesterday and forever so why if he is the same would be cease to stop giving revelation forever? maybe stop it briefly but all together abandon it? seems to conflict with his word. and how do you know who is innocent or not? take haiti maybe they were a bunch of drunken whores? and i know new orleans wasnt exactly an innocent city. so im not sure how you can prove these folks are innocent....besides i know no scripture that claims life is fair but rather quite the opposite and the task is to navigate through it and bear said afflictions and still praise God none the less. in fact one outright says unless God does these things people are slow to remeber him so he has to or theyll never look towards to heavens to find him and history is full of proof for this. another saids we get weakness so that he might make it a strength but again he wants us to humble towards him and this apparently the only way for 99% of the population again i ask do you suppose he lets evil people roam and kill us all? why cant bad people be punished? i mean if i had to take a look at the world im going to guess and say its not exactly a holy world and is very much anti God. besides almost all other problems are brought on by your choices and what you chose to do...yes illness are unavoidable but if you are making good choices your whole life then you really shouldnt be afraid to die now should you? if youve been seeking and following God your whole life dieing abrudtly shouldnt worry you near as much now should it? i mean i just cant ever buy into this arguement God doesnt love us because life isnt fair the only way life could be 100% fair is to remove free will and that was SAtans plan and the reason he is him and screwed and doomed to hell but free will is so important God allows Satan to still exist. in other words your not going to get one thing forced onto you so by affect something unfair might happen to you. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]Sure I've tried talking, both aloud and in my head. I can have an open mind and be as honest as I can, but have no idea about "from the heart". What you say about praying fits my understanding exactly. Suppose I chose a different religion, but used the same technique. Do you think I'd believe that one? I also worry that frequent repetition shares similarities to brainwashing. Does praying need to be done with eyes closed and hands clasped? Can't it be a thought?
praying can be a thought it can be while lieing down it can be while crying it can be while cutting myself and yelling and screaming at God there is no limit or fixed position you must be in to pray in fact ive done all those. just if you can on your knees and with closed eyes and showing some form of reverance is the preference and shows your being humble and submissive to the one who created you. in affect your showing respect for your Father. dont think of it as brainwashing just simply speak to him think of him as real and expect an answer back hes real he exists speak in that mindset. it can be a thought or outloud however think of him as your Father and your having a conversation perhaps a simple starter question of are you real might be a good place to start and go from there again dont expect to get the idea perfect baby steps buddy baby steps crawl first. if you prayed about another religion your answer would no if it came from God....if again while praying ya know God isnt above letting Satan tempt you so you could in fact receieve an answer that is yes....however for all intents and purposes if your truely seeking the maker of the universe and pray about another religion your answer will be no its not the true religion. but say your hoping that im wrong and your heart is against well even if you got the answer im correct would you accept? so you might that answer that im wrong simply because you were hell bent on me being wrong so Satan was allowed to deleiver the answer which is why i stress open mindness open heart no assumptions dont even assume im right, broken spirit truely seeking God. and the answer wont be glaring loud it will be a simple small but noticeable still small voice in your heard and heart...and reading and confirming said book of mormon true would be a similar experience but youll just sort of feel it youll feel something come over you like a burning inside not literally but youll feel something confirm it i guess as the book puts it a burning in your bosum or something like that. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]I don't think I ever did accuse you of saying that. I can see how blessings and healing are a comfort, but then so are many secular practices that comfort the sick. I'm still a bit lost on the Catholic versus the actual priesthood. Why abandon one establishment to replace it with a largely similar one? Is there any other reason, aside from Smith's revelation, as to why priests are better able to serve and reveal to people than they are able to serve themselves?
well simple those other priests lost the priesthood its gone they dont have it its not there. when Smith had said revelation it was returned to earth to him. ah i see i gotcha. well if you can find stats on it be my guest they may be out there but i doubt the church ever pushed stats because the idea is dont brag about it and dont go flaunting it either. if a person asks or you just get that feeling to offer a blessing and the person accepts the offer go for it but dont brag about it dont write a book on dont use this to get gain i mean imagine for a moment here....if you had divine authority to act in God's name dont you think we could be trillionaries by now unless of course there was a following string attached of dont brag about it cause isnt greed one of those deadly sins? but ya thats how it works i dont brag about and i dont walk into a cancer hall and say todays your lucky day it doesnt work that way. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]Stats don't prove things - they provide evidence. Proof is a concept that people apply subjectively, according to their own standards and criteria. You say there is loads of proof that healing works, which would usually need some sort of medical evidence for popular acceptance. Such evidence would be easy to provide if your claim were true, since peoples' health is recorded statistically. Anocdotal evidence is generally suspicious - if you take that into account, we'd have to consider aliens, monsters, ghosts, astrolgy and chiropracters as justified. I would never try and disprove anything. I am sorry if that's what you thought I was doing. I was offering other possible explanations. I personally believe that disproof is a logical fallacy. This means it is not logically possible to disprove anything. For instance, as Bertrand Russell points out, how would you go about disproving that an invisible teapot is spinning round the sun? The concept of negative proof fails since there are always an infinite amount of alternative possibilites to disprove too. No, the best solution, as used in the scientific method, is to rely on positive proof alone.
that said there may be stats on the issue i have no idea if there are they arent endorsed by the church as far as my understanding goes i mean ive been a member all my life and ive never heard of stats on blessings before because i doubt GOd approves and i doubt a stat on how often Gods power works would be needed since priesthood = Gods Power. and why cant all those things exist? ive used chriopractors they rock they fixed my back. and who says the other things can exist....well ill give you monsters if you mean horror movie style but i'd consider a rapist a monster then again ripleys beleive or not makes me wonder seen some freaky people on there lol. that said you say scientic method it eh? well if you truely desire to understand what im saying and want to learn it....well read the book and pray about it those are the only two steps you gotta do then report and go from there. thats it two steps to know whether im a liar or not. 1.read 2.pray 3.repeat till finished reading ok 3 steps there ya go use the scientific method and find out whether i lie or not. again dont assume im right or wrong go in with an open mind and heart just as a scientists should go in assuming nothing about the outcome.[QUOTE="tachikoma679"] i dont remeber yalls entire debate not sure i read it all word for word but bottom line a mod shouldnt threaten to edit posts of a person he is debating with. that said im not picking sides on what was right and wrong with what yall were argueing about concerning mods though i do agree if an officer says it can be posted here then keep posting. why he didnt is up to him ive had folks tell me to stop posting off topic on message boards for 5 year old games that 1 post a week....seriously? maybe he is just like that.RationalAtheist
You're right - a mod would have probably just gone ahead and deleted it without discussion. I'm not a mod and don't want to suppress debate, but allow it and get involved in discussion. I think PMs are a bit too snidey so why shouldn't it all be out in public, if done politely?
They way it got turned into me suppressing debate from religious people was hard for me to take. Terms like "shut me up", "using your authority", "constantly going to use their mod status" have been bandied around incorrectly. If anything, surely documented evidence here is that we (including myself) encourage and engage in debate with religious types. I have never moderated a single post here.
In fact I'm proud of the AU and its open policy towards posting and membership, plus I'm extremely grateful to Gamespot for providing resources to people investigating religion, so they can read up on all the various views here.
well dont forget im new here i have no knowledge of this union quite honestly i wasnt sure what to expect i had ideas and it isnt quite as bad as i had antcipated it could of been. and i agree GS off topic is rotten with modding religious topics.... while i think you two were bouncing back and forth and just and just as guilty as question dodging still pulling the im going to edit posts in the middle of a sensitive topic hurts your claims to being open and if i was android i probably would be ticked if you said it to me too as often as you seemed to say it because if you truely want to understand our religion there are topics that do violate TOS including one i just got modded for off topic concerning a very basic bible story cain and abel so you must allow room for this kind of stuff. again i dont know your history here pal.i agree 100% if mods in an atheism union are that welcome religious debate are going to constantly use their mod status as a means of winning an arguement then they have no place being a debate period. whats funnier is how you nit pick constantly then get mad about android doing it and then threaten to edit posting....honestly if thats your last resort tactic i myself may leave this union just because i find that to be despicable. ive seen several times youve threatened to edit posts when you both are going at full force that seems rather un fair if you ask me and handicapping as religious talk 99% of the time violates TOS rules to begin with[QUOTE="tachikoma679"][QUOTE="Android339"]Impotence is evident when you start using your authority to try to shut me up. It's even funnier hearing you try to justify it to yourself, because, well, you sure as hell won't be able to justify it to me. ;)RationalAtheist
Hold on! I have made no moderations yet. I wasn't aiming to shut Android up - I was trying to discuss polygomy with him. I was not restrict his free speech. I was contesting his judgement of how this union should be run.
This thread was starting to sound like a stuck record. My opinion on what is not off-topic must over-ride Androids, since I am an officer in this union and must make such decisions. The only way I could be impartial was if I couldn't contribute to the union. And that's not going to happen.
Your accusations of my nit-picking and getting mad are unsubstantiated and un-called for. I'd prefer the TOS rules were not broken in this union and noone had moderations made against them. Hopefully, there's far less damage if I try and prevent it before that happens.
So, if you want Android to repeat endlessly that I'm trying to derail this thread by bringing polygomy up in it, go ahead - you got it. I won't delete his protestations. Instead, I'll celebrate them! I'll just keep on posting justifications as to why discussion of polygomy should be allowed in this thread. I will continue also to provide my own discourse on the history and issues with polygomy in Mormonism.
i dont remeber yalls entire debate not sure i read it all word for word but bottom line a mod shouldnt threaten to edit posts of a person he is debating with. that said im not picking sides on what was right and wrong with what yall were argueing about concerning mods though i do agree if an officer says it can be posted here then keep posting. why he didnt is up to him ive had folks tell me to stop posting off topic on message boards for 5 year old games that 1 post a week....seriously? maybe he is just like that.Personally, I think the bible has too much already! So no, I don't think it lacks anything except a ring of truth. The method of teaching and "debate" within the Mormon faith seems entirely similar to other Chritian faiths. I'm not sure asking someone to read a whole book, then expect them to automatically share your view is expecting too much. Other faiths seem to be able to condense their core beliefs, values and origins into snappy messages that they propagate. I wondered what sort of evangelism would persuade someone over to Mormonism.
well i dont have a snappy little card showing all my beleifs on it. honestly that particular card is probably for missionaries but i havent yet gone on one so i dont have the here these are our core values wrapped up in 3 sentences. i know what i beleive but havent exactly put it into a simple phrase. converting another Christian to the mormon faith is again personal. some latch onto the history of the book mormon others enjoy certain aspects of the faith others are just hit instantly with a testimony and power of The Holy Ghost. it really depends on the indivual and how open they are. in cases like that if i was argueing with someone much like i am now with you i am relying on the fact God shall guide me in my words as the church is very indivual on how it attracts people some people love a certain aspect and thats what hooks them. i am mean we beleive in CHrist atonement and he restored the church in the 1800s thats about the simplest way of putting it. or maybe you like the fact that through obediance you can live with your family forever. depends exactly what strikes you all important but normally each new person has 1 or 2 things that strike there attention. perhaps asks android if you havent ticked him off what his big 1 or 2 things were that converted him? i was born into it so i dont have the same conversion process. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]Why be proud of getting a death order? I still can't see how a religion can be nationalist, or so caught up in its own history. Would international Mormons desire to move to the USA?
im not sure international mormons would desire to move to the USA or not but probably i would imagine would have a higher respect for the USA and probably desire some of the freedom aspects of the USA to be carried to their own home country. we just have a high respect for the USA and the constitution because our modern revelation says out right the Lord established America. nothing aobut you must move here i imagine thats up the indivual. well the bible does clearly state God is a vengeful God as one of his descriptions but he is also a God of love and a God of order etc. so you cant just slap on description on him and call it a day. your wicked he punishes you your good he rewards its really that simple. no reason why GOd has to be only vengeful yet a human can be loving to mom lie to my boss then kill my brother....why can God only have 1 emotion? the problem with said constitution is that our politicians dont abide by it what you see in the USA now is nowhere in line with the founders intended. and i'd be hardpressed to beleive you have honest leaders in the UK at least at any higher percentage than here.If you think God authorises war then God can only be vengeful. I'd personally wonder what the point would be of worshiping a God that could be so amoral. Not all politicians are scum-bags. Perhaps your democratic system is different to mine. We don't have a constitution in the UK and I'm not sure I'd want one, give all the problems I see it cause within the USA, in many cases having the opposite effect than intended (i.e. freedom to bear arms).
RationalAtheist
i see that would in fact pose a problem to my request. praying is quite simple and is perhaps something that is different in our church compared to the world. it is one of our differences. we very much take praying on an indivual relationship with GOd. here would be an example. get on your knees and start talking say something like this....Heavenly Father...*speak what is on your mind here whether that be you cant stand this guy tachikoma679 online that movie you just saw was awesome or about how your struggling in life with whatever it is or anything else or quite simply i want to get to know you better open my eyes and ears really speak from the heart....then at the end in the name of Jesus Christ Amen. most importantly think of it like this he already knows everything he just wants you to be honest and open to him about it he in fact is waiting for you to in a way pray or pick up the phone and call him and start talking. thats praying its simple and sweet. do this and read said book of mormon and while you might not instantly figure it all out youll get your answer once again dont expect everything over night Rome wasnt built in a day. never mind the fact reading a whole book takes more than a day and im basically saying read it pray on it and ponder it in fact im openly encouraging you to question it and truely wonder whether it is true or not. just try clear your mind on the matter and just do it its not hard. and its ok i suppose i should of realized you wouldnt know this but its ok ive seen many newcomers for a while in the beginning are like you perplexed on praying and really have no grasp on it or how to approach it and make it more complccated than it actually is. so if you feel weird or awkward or confused on what your doing its a fairly normal thing but most get it after a little while some get it quickly others dont it depends on the indivual sorry that made sound more complicated than it is it isnt i promise but simply trying to cover the usual new person newness to the that comes with it. [QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]I have a problem in that I have no idea what praying is. I remember "praying" as a child. I was taught to close my eyes and put my hands together and think of God. I've always had no idea of what God was like, since I was also told God was beyond human conception. So I have sat there, eyes closed, hands clasped, honestly wanting to engage with faith, trying to think of a supernatural force that was responsible for me and everything around me. It didn't work repeatedly then and it won't work now. Words like "pray", "open heart" and "revelation" are difficult words to actualise for me since I don't really know what they mean. I'm confident I have the same feelings and senses as you, so the difference is in our perception rather than in anything I'm doing wrong.
RationalAtheist
I wonder how many people of all faiths and none had thought they'd broken a bone, then found out that they hadn't. How many have found some injuries heal far quicker than expected? I have. There is also "regression to a mean" theory that suggests people seek treatment or faith heeling when the illness is at its worst and will improve anyway. I'd have thought the burden would be on you to prove that less illness was recorded among Mormons that for other faiths living in your area. These objecvtive statistics would be available from your hospitals too. But rather than use this impartial data, the obvious preference is for positive but subjective supporting witness testimony. The reason other Christian faiths have cooled down significantly on their own claims for healing in the last 300 years is that objective evidence suggests there's no medical difference in belilevers regarding injuries or illnesses and spiritual healing has no effect over plaebo in clinical trials
you are misunderstanding i never said mormons didnt get sick if we didnt blessings would never be used and i never said they worked 100% of the time a blessing could be a blessing of comfort to perhaps someone who is dieing and there has come so they receive a blessing a comfort. blessings arent quite as black and white as your thinking or so it appears your thinking that. we do fully take the approach of a blessing yes but then go see the doctor too granted God needs no doctor but he very much expects us to do what we can when we ask for his help and he'll do the rest. basically i give you blessing call you by say by what authority i do it and then guided by the Holy Ghost i speak what comes to mind and end it in the name Jesus CHrist amen. so you never really know exactly what your going to say in a blessing. the reason other faiths have cooled down is because as me and android have stated they lack the restored priesthood power so they speak for nothing so a catholic priest giving a blessing has no punch to it instead in that case it is merely praying and have THAT much faith in God that he'll heal you and in those cases he very well may but they sadly dont have the more direct and extra help of the actual priesthood. yes im saying faith is enough but also saying they arent a restored church so these instances probably arent near as common there. if you can find actual stats on this go ahead im not going to look as what will this prove to you? if you dispute my claims and others as coincident why would stats prove a thing to you? ya they probably wouldnt. once again this is why God rarely uses displays of power to convince people but rather a witness through the power of The Holy Ghost to convince people and hence its exclusively the only way to get to hell is by denying The Holy Ghost. hence if you want that witness you should pray and read the book of mormon and youll get that witness. i gave you the challenge as you seem bent on disproving it despite every example i can tell you of how they worked and i still fail to see how youve disproved anything but again the proof i offer you is read and pray about and receive said witness honestly otherwise youll forever only see the tv screen half way with the otherh alf covered. you ask me to prove my words well there you go do that you might see right now how that can prove my words but you will should you do it.Impotence is evident when you start using your authority to try to shut me up. It's even funnier hearing you try to justify it to yourself, because, well, you sure as hell won't be able to justify it to me. ;)Android339i agree 100% if mods in an atheism union are that welcome religious debate are going to constantly use their mod status as a means of winning an arguement then they have no place being a debate period. whats funnier is how you nit pick constantly then get mad about android doing it and then threaten to edit posting....honestly if thats your last resort tactic i myself may leave this union just because i find that to be despicable. ive seen several times youve threatened to edit posts when you both are going at full force that seems rather un fair if you ask me and handicapping as religious talk 99% of the time violates TOS rules to begin with
[QUOTE="Android339"]Simply apply what I had written about societies, to people. Heavenly Father, I'm sure, would rather there be a just and righteous Muslim than one who shuns a moral code altogether. There is also the sense that God has, at times, sent people a strong delusion, according to what they've desired, because it is what they've desired.
GabuEx
So... you're basically saying that God effectively lies to people either because that's what they want or because they're not ready for the truth? :?
ah your no fun you replied to the other dude but not me i was reallly looking forward to answer to my question
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