MrEmpirical: Should prove interesting. I hope to see those relatively soon.
MistryMan
I'll have to check that out later. I've been doing quite a bit of testing so I haven't had the chance to see the vids...sounds like he could be learning from us with his recent changes to his original work..also
theliar
I think he is yeah, another addition to the GoW obsessed LOL. I've actually watched most of the key parts of that run now, it's fantastic. It'll be much easier to rewatch when he gets it up on youtube, the site it's on right now is painfully slow for me.
Agreed. YouTube is preferred. I'm quite certain he has been learning from us as we have from him. I shall soon be finished watching NGW's vids for GoWII so I can watch the Speedrun vids we are discussing every so lightly.
I am certain of it now. Collisions caused by knockbacks or the "Repel" *Ex: Minotaur Grunt, Satyr, Gorgonetc.* Orion's Harpoon type deal half of what other collisions result in. While Rabid Hound grabs, all other OH/alt.OH/grabs, etc. deal the damage we come to expect...that explains why the air grab of an Erebus Minotaur did full collision damage yet its OH (Repel type) did only 1/2. This explains why it took so long even in a GK:TM:NUR to kill the 2 Satyr Champions with just collision damage..the OH (Repel) they had and the knockbacks I used on them were only doing half (50) what I expected (100) so their 210HP took them farther then I could have calculated based on what I knew then.
Makes sense. You'd already told us that Theseus' Erebus Minotaurs have 90HP and so 2 OH collisions are expected to do 100 dmg and finish them off, yet it doesn't.
I takes awhile for me to isolate what needs testing and what is what...RotT is a HUGE example of this..asare collisions and other such special properties.
Let's use the Theseus fight to demonstrate furhter:
-Typical Erebus Minotaurs have 60HP while these have 90HP and grant lots of magic orbs (especially in their mini-game)
-The typical method used to deal collision damage in that fight is to use OH *Repel type*or Valor *knockback* which actually only does 25 damage instead of 50. Thus 3 of them would reduce eithers health to 15 which is when "O" appears exactly.
-In that same fight, If I used a single air grab to cause a collision on one to the other, it would deal 50 damage, leaving one with 40HP remaining
I think now I'll have to try working air grab collisions into a strategy for dealing with the minotaurs. As you already know, I have a near perfect demonstration of using 'OH, OH, RotT 3xSq, RotT 3xSq' - bringing one mino straight to 'O' and the other very close.
I've done a litte tinkering using air grabs there myself and it isn't the easiest things to get on demand..your work with said strategy was excellent..it really did that tactics justice. These grab reversals on Theseus however can be troublesome as they are a bit random..I can use attacks or even grabs to provoke his counter but that doesn't guarantee he will do what I want which bothers me...things can go great or really poorly by chance alone.
This is all good to know as in a GK:TM:NUR:
-collisions are worth twice as much; knockbacks/OH would do 50 (you could only afford to use one on each Minotaur) and air grab collisions would do 100 (auto-killing one) so it was out of the question
NOTE: I did a brief test withGK:TM:NUR Theseus and found that reversing the grab *after seeing how effective it was in MistryMan's Speedrun* does 50-56 damage..it could be the same for all settings but it could be that the damage dealt was linked to collision damage *only halved* just as the spiked ceiling in a certain elevator is...I know this for certain as when done on Titan with Hydra Armor *has 50% attack but the collision damage is typically only worth 25* took two launches into the spikes to net a Cursed Remains as dead.
^More testing is needed
Interesting to know a rough figure for the grab reversal. Shenminiu RAEPED Theseus with this method, I don't even think he had a chance to summon the ice spikes.
EDIT
I've had a bit of fun in the same areas I've been testing for awhile..in the Wraiths of Asphodel fight I've:
-Been using the area where the block falls down *prior to getting it* to safely allow for what we alreadydo in that narrow area before the door...Petrification of the Wraiths has never been easier
-Got 3 of the Wraiths over the side (where the 2 Cursed Archers andLegionnaireCaptain would be had I not killed them)just to see how it would look to have 3of the b*st*rdsstuck in mid-air...only 2 were visible oddly enough
lolz
Indeed
The fight w/ Guardians/Juggernauts pre-Roots (Perseus) has a sweet spot of its own..two actually..one is obvious..the other.. not nearly so.
I've gotten quite good at skipping from the first to the third grapple point..about 1 out of 3 attempts are successful..but I find that this way is either just slightly faster or ties with my original method using cancels along each..I'll record both to compare results
What is your method of skipping the grapple? Also, I don't fully understand the method of using cancels so it would be nice to see your recordings of that.
For skipping 1 to 3: Just hold R1 until just before it begins turning back *highest point*, usea timed double jump while NOT going foward *slightly to the left actually* and wait until the instant you can see *not always* the glowing ring appear around Grapple 3. That is what often works for me..it just doesn't seem as fast is it did before though..
Cancels: As you know, animations *especially buffer types* can be canceled..for quick rolling, bow/head/block canceling, etc. You even know that using a canceled attack out of a roll allows for leaps out of a roll *fast*..in this case I simply cancel to the point that the time spent on each grapple is minimal.
EX:
-leap to 1st
-press/hold R1 then quickly leap *double jump* to the 2nd
-There you immediately press "X" while going for the 3rd with R1
-As soon as you grapple it you jump *cancels the swing* and R1 it again to chance direction
-Another fast double jump will get you across in a hurry
I use swing cancels like others..fairly often
In the Pre-Icarus fights I had an excellent Wave 1 run in which I did two Argo's Returns in a row *with the initial Sirens lined up* where I was able to use the "O" of the second then with just an air grab and a PS I finished her off with another "O". I left the first alone as I worked on the 3rd. After killing her I used an Argo's Return which knocked the Siren into a Spawning Hades Minotaur (would be worth just 50 due to my knew understanding of collisions). I believe I used a PS to knock her into both next *not very wise but it worked* doing another 50 to one and 50 to the other. From there I successfully did an OH hitting both Hades Minotaurs for 100 *killed 1 and left the other at "O" with 10HP*..I used the Siren's "O" first then for the lulz I did the "O" for the final foe.
In Wave 2, I did the usual..Petrifed/Crushed the first Satyr then uppercut to OH (twice) to hold him at the corner where one of the Hades Juggernauts spawn..after that I did PS causing 50 damage collisions (4) to annihilate one before having to retreat away so I could use OH/PS to cause 3 more collisions on the final Juggernaut so "O" appeared..did that then got the Satyr into a corner for PS rape.
To my great delight, I believe I've found a easily repeatable exploit for TM3 that lets me basically skip his first stage. This is what I do:
Easily repeatable exploit for TM3 to skip stage 1... YOU GOT MY ATTENTION
I should hope that would be the case.
-Get to platform and roll towards rock covered wall *used later for Stage 2*
-Use double jumps and the Icarus Wings to fly towards it then back to the platform *causes the beast to think it needs to go to Stage 2 or if done again resets it to the correct Stage; done once*
-It will start to walk away before setting up for its rock throw
-Stay in position and wait for the rock throw
-'Trick' through the rock and wait for him to grab another
-When it does fly as you did before *towards the wall and back to the platform* to reset it to Stage 1 before rolling at him again
-use an attack cancel into PS then a jumping/retreating PS and he should attack back with his pound used to crack the wall and sink the platform
^I am trying to do this with a shorter *easier* method but this is the only one I can repeat. The process of going to Stage 2, throwing a rock, then reverting to Stage 1 while being hit in a certain way *air PS while retreating* could be the trigger but I intend to further experiment with this trick as it allows me to skip having to deal 365 damage.
Very interesting... screwing with the TM's AI.
That it is..though there is a lot to be done with Stage 3...
Using the flight towards the wall also can be used in Stage 3 but only to break up his attacks.
Know that I now use jumps AWAY from the wall *during Stage 2; cancels the rock throws* before using the Icarus Wings to fly back to it..works nicely so I don't need to rely on timing..which is AWESOME to me because I suck at that sort of thing *as I've covered in the past* This also can work when he is walking into position as it stops his progress towards the rock throwing spot. All you need to do is stall for time *until the platform returns*
I did that a few times too... for similar reasons.
I believe that is a good call.
I still have to do a lot more testing on Stage 3 for PS efficiency as I don't want to use a lot of magic *see: none* here..I can't seem to get PS to hit very often..just like the other Titan Minotaurs..which is ****ing pissing me off..for now I'll have to call at quits as I haven't saved *due to needing to record earlier parts* and it froze during a restart so until another day..
^The latest work I've been doing..still no recordings I know..I'll get to it eventaully
the-creeper
I've been taking a break from recording too. I played today and recorded up to the Kraken. Just been trying out a few things on him to speed him up. I think I've worked out the method that I will use later when I capture the battle.
It is good to spend time trying out tricks..for speed's sake if nothing else.
level 2 hammer only takes 2 double-triangle combos on the ground tentacle. I'm thinking of using 2 Titan Storms during stage 2 so I only have to make one leap up to his face. Using RotT in only 3 places - breaking both tentacle 'knobs' and on the ground tentacles at the end. I'll have to see how fast this all actually is in practice and whether I need to re-think RotT or TS usage. I have enough orbs to bring blades to lvl 3, so I could possibly spend them and not have to use RotT as much.
By that point you will have access to lvl3 Hammer power IF and WHEN you use RotT since theupgrade is during the Kraken fight. RotT use for the Blades is probably best *when breaking the knobs*. Weakening the second one with a CR orb or even just an air Triangle hit of the Hammer could be in your best interest..who knows without testing..
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