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Volition developer blasts used game business

Design director at Saints Row studio warns industry could "fall apart" due to used sales, says an Xbox that blocked used games would be "fantastic."

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The used game business is a contentious issue. For companies like GameStop, sales of used games are big business, but those who actually develop games don't see a dime when people purchase their titles secondhand. One developer recently vocalized his take on the used game market, and it paints a less than lovely image of the business.

Durall is far from pleased with the used game business.
Durall is far from pleased with the used game business.

In a recent entry on game developer blog AltDevBlog titled "I Feel Used," Volition design director Jameson Durall lambasted the used game market and noted that change is needed or the industry will crumble.

"In the end, I fully believe that we have to do something about these issues or our industry is going to fall apart," he said. "People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60. They also don't seem to realize how much they are hurting us when they buy a used game and how pirating a copy is just plain stealing."

Durall, who is currently working on a secret project at Volition, laid out a plan for combating used game sales. He said supporting games with downloadable content will encourage users to hold on to their games longer. However, Durall warned that this tactic only will work if the DLC in question is "compelling and a good enough value" for consumers.

Durall also pledged his support to the online pass schemes being used by publishers like Electronic Arts, THQ, Sony, and others, whereby parts of a game are available only to those with a new copy of a game.

"Some consumers complain about this method because the precedent has always been that it's included in the price and should come with it," he said. "It did for the person who actually bought it first…so was saving that $5 at GameStop worth it for you?"

Looking ahead, Durall said he also embraced Sony's plan to offer digital copies of PlayStation Vita titles--which cannot become used units--at a discounted rate. He said he expects gamers to be enticed to buy digital copies because of their lower price rate and this will in turn lead to fewer used copies in the wild.

Durall also talked about the rumor that the Next Xbox would prevent gamers from playing used titles. Durall said this kind of mechanism would be "a fantastic change for our business," while admitting gamers would not be excited about it at first.

That said, Durall said he believes gamers will "grow to understand why and that it won't kill him."

As for how Microsoft might go about preventing gamers from playing used titles, Durall said the company already has a system in place. He suggests that Microsoft would need to only use a code to tie a copy of a title to an Xbox Live account and make the game playable only on that account.

Durall admits that a system like this would hurt the game rental business and that there are several "faults that would have to be ironed out," but nevertheless, he contends that it is certainly possible.

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allanpaas

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Once you buy a game you own, it is entirely up to you what you do with it. Companies want money from used games being sold. Once they fail at that they might think, "if we can't get money from used games then we will up the prices of new ones, say double them? Or triple?" You might have created it but what is no longer yours is no longer yours. If you don't accept that fact then stop selling new games.

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DarknautXXX

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Couldn't developers research cheaper ways to make games? Making more with less? The reason this probably isn't happening is because the industry is fueled by top- tier technology and all research goes into that. If companies focused more on researching cost effectivness, technology would suffer. Yet maybe that is what the industry needs to do before they alienate the average gamer. Look at Nintendo. They always seem to sacrifice top notch graphical power and memory capacity to keep costs down. Yet they also provide high quality games.

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stu_gamer

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Lol......money hungry ****

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mhaed

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The used game market eliminates waste. Imagine having to keep every single game you buy. Why not give another a chance to get a reduced price on something you've already purchased at full price. Game developers are already getting full price for every new copy sold, they're just complaining because they could make a profit on used sales and they're not.

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allanpaas

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Industry could fall apart due to used sales. Ok. Why hasn't it already? According to that little sentence it should have. They have been sold for so long already... Just a greedy m.....f..... All they do by babbling about selling used games promotes that act, makes even more people want to sell them. Honestly now. What do you do with something you no longer want? You throw it away or give it away, but it would be much better for you if you could sell it.

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Temmex

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@djforlife84 I just don't know if I can buy into the idea that used games are the reason the quality of games is slipping. The logic just doesn't seem to be there. "Well people are just going to buy this game used, so let's just make a piece of crap, that'll keep them from selling it back."

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GamerLegend10

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@collingtonuk Clearly :roll:

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GamerLegend10

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@djforlife84 So where do these used games come from? do they magically form on their own? You see for everyone to buy used games, someone first has to buy the game new...without millions of new copies of a game being purchased there wouldn't be any used games. We are not all passing around one copy of a game to millions of people. In reality many people go out and buy games new, then those of us who cannot afford the ridiculous high price of new games (just because you can afford it, doesn't mean we all can, stop being inconsiderate), buy used copies. Please apply some intelligence to your next post.

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spoonybard-hahs

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From Michael Pacther of Wedbush Morgan Secruities (the same guy the industry listens to about damn near every trend): "The number of games traded annually is striking; we estimate the overall used game market to be $2 billion in the U.S., with an average ticket of around $20 per used game. This means that an estimated 100 million units of used games are traded in each year, representing around 1/3 of all games sold annually. ... we think that used game sales benefit new game sales by providing currency to gamers with less disposable income, thereby enabling the purchase of additional games. The vast majority of used games are not traded in until the original new game purchaser has finished playing, typically well beyond the window for a fullretail priced new game sale. Thus, while there may be some limited substitution of used game purchases when GameStop employees "push" used merchandise upon consumers lined up to buy new games, the vast majority of used game purchases occur more than two months after a new game is released. Other than the potential impact at holiday (when new game lives are extended beyond the typical two month sell-through pattern), used game sales just don't impact new game purchases very much…. To the extent that there is a substitution effect, we estimate that fewer than 5% of new game sales are impacted."

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dsmpunk

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Honestly, if games were more reasonably priced then they wouldn't have such an "issue" with used game sales. These days I am mostly paying 5-10$ on Steam games and I am happier for it. Funny how I end up buying the latest Call of Duty,playing itfor a while, shrug and go back to playing Terraria, PVZ or something lol. Usually, these games are more fun than the blockbuster games. $59.99 and then release a metric ton of DLC? No thanks. If these big publishers don't adjust their business models, they will start to fall like dominoes.

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vicsrealms

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Wow, whats next book authors start screaming about second hand book sales from places like Half Priced Books?!!

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dawnofhero

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Used games are just as important as factory-sealed ones.

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GamerLegend10

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@Satan666HellDie No, you are the one that needs to think things through before posting something like that.

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djforlife84

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Tell me how this is right. New game comes out, person plays it for a few days then completes it, then trades it in. That's the problem, not games that have been around for over a year or more, that's fine to have used. So the developer spends a lot of money producing that game, yet now its on shelves being sold used at absolutely no profit to the developer. Maybe that's why games only have a 4 hour plot. I remember playing games that took 20,30 or 40 hours to complete. Why? the developer wasn't worried about making their money back because of used sales. How many video game companies/developers have you seen lay people off? Its like a company makes a game, then imidiately has to fire everyone in order to make a profit. Why? BECAUSE OF THE USED GAME INDUSTRY. Its not about making more money to a specific person or entity. These developers are just trying to protect the industry, and their jobs. Its pretty bad when gamestop makes a bigger profit off a game then the actual producer and developer, but all you people on this board seem to support it. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH THE GAME INDUSTRY, the actually gamers. START SUPPORTING THE DEVELOPERS or the quality of games will continue to go downhill. I'm just waiting for another collapse of the industry, and its coming.

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SeAzhrei

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Quoteth lazyman06: "Think about this: We're not buying the game directly from Volition Gamestop is. !!!!****So Volition already has their money*****!!!! whatever Gamestop wants to do with the games is their own business..literally" Man hit the nail on the head. Blindfolded no less.

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FLEEBS

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As much as I hate them, what happens when Gamestop refuses to carry Microsoft products as a result of not being able to sell used games? That should cause Microsoft to think twice.

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King-gamer

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Here's one more thing I have to say regarding this issue: Mr. Durall, I still own my NES copy of Super Mario Bros. and I will NEVER sell it. Why? It is a timeless classic, it has a lot of nostalgic value, but most importantly, it is a GOOD GAME. It's a game I can pull out several years from now and say "Hey! I remember this awesome game!" Similarly, I have the Sims, all expansions, still have them to this day, and I'd rather play those than the Sims 3, because they are great games, and they deserve to be in my collection. Perhaps you guys should stop complaining about used games and make a game that people wouldn't want to sell. Then maybe people 20/30 years from now, people will say, "Saints Row The Fourth... what a classic that was... Glad I never sold my copy..."

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djforlife84

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everyone saying its a bad idea has their blinders on. do you honestly think the quality of games will be any good in the future when companies spend multi-millions to produce a game yet the masses go out and buy it used. Ive already started to see a slip in the quality of certain games. I like this idea since I can afford to pay 60 dollars for a game. Furthermore if you guys want good games maybe you should support the developers instead of screwing them over with gamestop. But I forgot these boards are full of selfish kids who know nothing about this laughing stock of an industry.

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neogeta8

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"For only $60" (£40)?! I don't know about you but £40 is a lot of money for me. I wish I could buy all the games I wanted to play but I can't because I can't afford to spend £40 on all the games that interest me. This idea is massively flawed and would really put me off buying a next gen Xbox if they brought something in like this. Plus I enjoy going round a friends house and playing a game on their Xbox with a few beers, how would this sort of thing be incorporated? It is still my game I just want to play it on another console. What about if I wanted/needed to replace my console, would I have to buy all my games again to be able to play them? This guy is thinking about profit alone and not the bigger picture.

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Zackarias-313

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Isn't it hypocritical of Microsoft to promote the use of used movies on it's consoles through services such as NetFlix, but want to block the playback of used videogames? This would mean if you don't like a game you've bought it's nothing but garbage once you've registered it with your account/console and cannot be resold. Digitally downloadable games are essentially "used or copied" versions of a game that are missing all of the parts except for the installed game itself. With that, you're buying an incomplete version of the game for a lesser price. Personally I think this is unconstitutional regardless of all the legal loop holes and licensing bs. You don't see the movie industry trying to get PC's and DVD players to block the playback of used movies. That'd be disastrous for our withering economy. It wasn't until the age of digital downloads that used games even became an issue. Just a thought...

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scatterbrain007

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I'm sorry, but this kind of thinking is going to REALLY hurt the smaller game developers too. Entire genres could go away that a good amount of people like to enjoy. Recently I bought a used copy of a WWII fighter plane simulator on the PS3. I would have bought it new, but it just wasn't available in my area. There are many genres I enjoy. Some I like more than others, and I love flight simulators like the one I bought. They are few and far between when/if they are ever developed (ESPECIALLY for a console). There are other games I would like to play before I get into a flight sim, and by the time I get to it, it's usually out of print or extremely hard to find brand new. If the consoles have this ability to block used games, there will be games that I will never get to play that I would like to. Triple A titles you can usually find new pretty easily for a long time. Not so popular games though, are a different story.

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GamerLegend10

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[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]

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zenverak

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There is some truth to what he says, there really is. However he also neglects to think about people who might, after buying a used game, become a loyal customer from then on out of games in that series or from that company. It can be like cheaper advertising.

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GamerLegend10

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I cant believe some people are foolish enough to listen to this c***, without thinking for themselves what this would really mean.

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steveguttenberg

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You really think your customers are pretty stupid, huh, Volition guy? You don't feel bad taking $60 from someone who stops playing your game shortly after buying it, but you want me to feel sorry for you?

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GamerLegend10

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What a load of BS, please do not listen to this guy, he is not taking into consideration how this would effect us the gamers, he is too concerned with gaining a bit of extra cash. I will just copy my points from another article on this issue. The problems with not being able to play used games: - You will not be able to buy used games - You will not be able to sell your games (they will become worthless as soon as you first use them(why should we not be able to sell something we own???)) - You will not be able to rent games - You will not even be able to borrow a game from a friend - Backwards compatibility would be unlikely - The overall price of games would increase and stay high for longer, as without a used game market they would have far less pressure to bring prices down (his proposal of reducing the price of games which cannot be resold would only be temporary...but as soon as used games are blocked on a large scale they could place the price of games at whatever they want). This would be terrible for EVERYONE, in so many ways, and if you cannot see that then you are completely stupid.

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AndCarlsen

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tmorri603

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One of the reasons that used games are so popular that people do have a lot of money to pay $60 a pop on new games. They love games but the budget says you can't get that because you have to eat and pay bills. Even if used games are ended, do you really think that will change anything? They will just wait until the price comes down to used prices and may get it then.

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zenverak

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Honestly, I also don't mind games where they might force you to buy a code to play online if you didn't buy the game originally. I think that is fair game. But blocking would be horrible.

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Spacerac

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The thing about the Vita is that it's a portable console and it makes sense to go digital to have less to carry around. For home consoles, discs are best if it can be helped. This guy Durall isnt a higher-up, no need to punish Volition for his idiocy. I didn't not continue to buy PS because Tretton said some idiot things last year

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zenverak

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I don't mind paying a decent amount for a game, I really do not. However, I would like to see more put into the game in places that count. I would like more than ohhh, this looks good. Done in five hours. I need something that can really last. Sometimes you don't have to go into stupid crazy detail for that. Having said that, I think the only way to really stop used games sales is to not have a physical copy.

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AndCarlsen

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This is just ridiculous. The Sopa bill was ridiculous but it at least had some good points like preventing piracy and etc (I'm not saying it was good !!!). You can be sure that if the next gen xbox really blocks used games, I won't get close to it. if those romours are true, Microsoft just lost a possible buyer before they even announced the console.

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duron2

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Dumb idea, these fools make a ton more profit off a 60$ game than they want you to know. Blatant liars.

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megakick

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LOL this doesn't encourage theft, if feel you have to play video games you might have an addiction IMO. How would you like to come to work one day and find your pay is a bit smaller or don't have a job? If you don't think loss sales don't have ramifications you don't live in the real world, almost half of Gamestop sales are from used games half! Video game reselling is a issue. Video game Reselling is huge, gamestop is practically a pawnshop.

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KingJduro

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All this will do is increase piracy and decrease their earnings, ridiculous idea!

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zenverak

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More content, less STUPID details and more fun. I seem to remember some games with Crappier graphics being fun. You don't have to go all out.

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Megavideogamer

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Microsoft will try to lock out used games. Sony and Nintendo could easily nulify the third Xbox by just allowing used games on their console. Microsoft will end up in third place in the 8th generation of consoles. Or the Harckers will find a way to defeat MS lockout feature.

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quinnd6

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I hate crappy drm on pc and I hate the idea of not being allowed to buy or sell used games. All this kind of crap does is encourage people to break the law. Nobody likes being told what to do when its completely unfair on legitimate buyers. Personally I don't buy many used games myself at all I usually buy them only if I cant find a new copy of a game but I still totally disagree with this. If Microsoft do that with the next xbox I won't be buying it. Also what happens if in a while someone wants to buy an older game thats no longer available in the shops. What happens then eh? Disallowing used game sales would be tyranny. If any console maufacturers do that with their next console people should boycott it. We can't let them get away with that. People are sick of hearing this kind of crap. This volition guy should keep his mouth shut in future if he has nothing intelligent to say.

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Mark_HD

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Good idea, if they do that I just won't buy any games at all! I bet that will be even more fantastic and better for the industry!

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luizferrarezzi

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this is bull%#$@

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Richardthe3rd

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I've seen lots of people on this site make a very compelling argument which I'm coming to agree with. Developers need to cut their production costs; stop with the over-the-top CGI and VA, stop with all the frilly crap. Unfortunately, players need to drop their standards accordingly. We can't have it both ways, but I'd prefer a system that doesn't but customers in a box rather than have sparkling campaigns that feature the voices of Liza Minnelli and 30 minute CGI cutscenes.

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Raidramon0

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If I said it before I'll say it again; the Xbox 360 didn't become the best-selling console of 2011 by blocking out used games. Money's getting tighter for us. I can't afford to buy new games all the time.

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commando1992

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"only $60" If companies want to keep their games off of Gamestop's used shelf, they should strive to make a game worth keeping and paying 60 bucks for, not whine and moan and use DLC gimmicks to try and keep every cent for themselves.

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Satan666HellDie

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How do you justify that you want games to be cheaper? I dont love this guy, thats for sure. But the fact that games would get cheaper out in the stores is just a fairy tale. Name a product that has a decline in its price tag the latest 10 years! And why do you buy these games if you dont want to pay 60$? Buy a cheaper game, there are plenty around. Some arent as good as these bigger games but thats what you get. This is the same stupid mentality as downloading music, games, movies etc. If we all did it,( and yes sireee bob, I want it all for free) we would not have much music, movies, games etc left would we? I urge you all to just think it thrue. For example: Do you like seeing your favo band on tour? Well if they didnt have a record company backing them up, they would not be able to tour the world would they? So sure get angry and bash this guy, he may deserve it abit for sticking hes ass out like that, but the fact that nothing is free in this world still stands, and will stand til the end of days. You can bash him all you want but this is reality.

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lazyman06

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That's why even a new game will come down in price after a while because Gamestop wants to move that product; It's not making them any money just sitting there.

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bigballedbaxter

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The last time I checked, CarMax did nothing towards crippling the auto industry. I think the REAL problem is, that while industries such as the automotive sector are run by progressive, forward thinking, business-minded folks, the video game industry is sinking because it's being run by the same people who spent their entire lives avoiding people, avoiding class, avoiding the sun, etc. They clearly don't know how to adapt, they're clearly self-entitled, and they clearly have their head up their butt if they cannot figure out that I buy used games because crap like Saints Row 3 is NOT worth $60. It's worth $20...tops. THAT is why I buy used Mr. Durall, because you are nothing more than a shovelware director who continues humping his one-trick pony.

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lazyman06

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Think about this: We're not buying the game directly from Volition Gamestop is. So Volition already has their money whatever Gamestop wants to do with the games is their own business..literally

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thisranks

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@TTDog: The problem with what you said is everybody has their own idea of what a "better game" is. For some it's how they used to be made, and for others if it's not exactly the way they want it.... Look at Square Enix for example. They just can't seem to make some people happy no matter what they do. They make the changes some people were complaining about in FFXIII and they still complain. Why? It's not the (insert previous FF title) clone they demanded. Times have changed. Used to be that people went to the store and bought games they knew they'd like. Nowadays games are dissected down the the pixel to make sure they are happy with it. That's a bigger problem then what people let on. The above has it's part in the used game business. People don't want to pay full price for what they feel they won't like, and they have a ready made way to do it. They are relying on those who do purchase the games new to keep their "stock" of used games coming. That's simply not cool as far as i'm concerned. While i don't necessarily care whether people buy games new or used there is an underlying problem with it whether you like to admit it or not. This is part of what happens when gaming starts getting taken for granted.

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Twilighten

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I think this is stupid! What about gamers who aren't sure about a certain title and want to rent it instead? I suppose renting will also hurt the industry too? Also, not everyone wants to keep certain games either after they've finished with them; DLC or not. Either because they've completed them, they didn't like them, they have no desire to play them again, or just to free up some space... How are they going to get rid of them if they can't sell them or something (used/secondhand)!? Besides, there will always be eBay even if game stores stopped selling them! And new consoles preventing used games is ridiculous too! What about all the people who want to take a game around a friends' house to play!? Greed. It's all greed!

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ValHazzard

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"People often don't understand the cost that goes into creating these huge experiences that we put on the shelves for only $60" Are you f'n kiddin me ? ... huge experiences ? only 60 $ When most games nowadays are 6-10 hours long ... they're worth half that money

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