.:: OrderGate - September 8th 2010 ::.

On lap 49 of the 2010 German GP, Felipe Massa allowed Fernando Alonso to overtake him to win the race and maximise his title bid, with a mass outcry of foul play from around the World.

Ferrari were found to have been in breach of Sporting Regulation 39.1, and to have brought the sport in to disrepute. As a result, they were fined $100,000 and referred to the World Motor Sport Council to face potential further sanctions.

The fallout continues - what is your opinion of what Ferrari did? Should it be allowed? Should there be harsher penalties? Discuss here.

On Monday 2nd August 2010, the FIA announced that the World Motor Sport Council hearing for Ferrari will take place on Wednesday, 8th September 2010.

On 25 July 2010, on the occasion of the Grand Prix of Germany counting towards the 2010 Formula One World Championship, the Stewards of the meeting, after hearing the persons concerned, noted an infringement by the Scuderia Ferrari of:

- Article 39.1 of the 2010 Sporting Regulations ("Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited")
- and Article 151 c) of the International Sporting Code ("Any of the following offences (...) shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules (...) any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally").

In the light of the information in their possession, the Stewards decided to impose a fine of $100,000 on the Scuderia Ferrari and to forward the dossier to the FIA World Motor Sport Council.

On the basis of that decision and of the inquiry report, and following the receipt of a report sent by the Stewards to the FIA, the FIA President has decided, in conformity with the new rules of disciplinary procedure adopted at his initiative on 11 March 2010, to submit the case to the judging body of the World Motor Sport Council.

The disciplinary hearing of the World Council will be chaired by the FIA Deputy President for Sport and will take place in Paris on 8 September 2010.

FIA

FERRARI WON'T APPEAL STEWARDS DECISION

Ferrari has ruled out appealing against the $100,000 fine that it was handed for imposing illegal team orders at the German Grand Prix, and is confident that the FIA will act in the right way when it comes to look at the events of the day.

As well as the fine handed out by the FIA, its World Motor Sport Council has been asked to look into what happened at Hockenheim when Felipe Massa handed Fernando Alonso the lead of the race - shortly after he was told his team-mate was quicker than him.

Although Ferrari could have appealed the decision, it has decided against doing so.

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said: "As for the Stewards' decision, given after the race, in the interests of the sport, we have decided not to go through a procedure of appealing against it, confident that the World Council will know how to evaluate the overall facts correctly."

SOURCE: Autosport

WHITMARSH TO HOLD PRIVATE FERRARI TALKS

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh plans to hold private talks with Ferrari to let them know his views on the team orders controversy that rocked the German Grand Prix.

Ferrari was fined $100,000 and could face further sanctions from the FIA's World Motor Sport Council for illegally using team orders to help Fernando Alonso take victory at Hockenheim on Sunday.

Although Ferrari is adamant that it did nothing wrong, the Maranello team's actions have caused a wave of outrage from fans and the media worldwide.

And although Ferrari's decision to hand Alonso the win in Germany has added a fresh dynamic to the world title fight, Whitmarsh said he did not wish to get drawn into a public slanging match.

"I don't want to get drawn into it," explained Whitmarsh. "I have my own private views on it. They were quicker than us today; they got a 1-2, but perhaps in a different order from that which people may have thought was right.

"I will give my private views to Ferrari, but I don't want to go on record and express those views."

And despite Ferrari showing itself so willing to throw its support behind one driver, Whitmarsh has promised his drivers that they will remain free to race.

"You can go back to the late 90s and all sorts of times when things have happened - but we decide to race. I think having our drivers racing, in the longer term, is a healthy thing to do for this team.

"That is my decision and that is what we want to do. Others do what they want to do, and it is for the FIA and Ferrari to determine what they think is right. We were racing our two guys until the end of the race."

He added: "All I know is the same as you. I heard what I heard, I saw what I saw, but it is for others to comment on.

"Ferrari were quick and we did what we could - and they raced how they raced. That was not a new approach from Ferrari, was it?"

SOURCE: Autosport

FRY: TEAM ORDERS DAMAGING FOR F1

Formula 1 teams should put the good of the sport above their own personal ambitions, and realise how damaging the use of 'team orders' can be to the image of grand prix racing.

That is the view of Mercedes GP CEO Nick Fry, who reckons that F1 faces such big challenges from other sporting and entertainment sectors that it cannot afford accusations that it is not a proper sport.

"I think the first thing is that we all have to obey the rules," Fry told AUTOSPORT. "Whether you like it or not the stewards and the FIA have the final say. Putting that aside, I think the teams have an absolute responsibility for the show.

"The show is what generates the fans; the fans are what generates the sponsors, and the sponsors generate sponsorship which allows us to run the teams. So they are the customers at the end of the day, and we have got to put on a good show.

"Putting aside whether or not it was team orders, I do feel sorry for Felipe [Massa] especially after what happened last year which we were very sad about. He was putting in a great performance. It doesn't seem fair regardless."

Fry acknowledges there are huge commercial pressures on teams to succeed in F1, but believes that they should think more carefully about delivering what fans of the sport want.

"Personally I think the show is the most important thing," he said. "I heard David Coulthard talk about the history and the fact there always were team orders, but I think times have changed.

"This is sport and the fans out there want to see the drivers fighting. While the teams think it is a teams' championship, most of the fans - possibly with the exception of Ferrari - support the drivers who happen to drive for a team.

"I think we have to let them fight it out and only intervene if it is getting out of hand, and they are knocking each other off."

Fry believes that ultimately a team has to decide what its core strategy is - and he says at his current outfit, through its BAR and Brawn GP identities, has been that of driver equality.

"I think you have got to start with basic philosophy, and the basic philosophy since I've been at this team is that we treat both drivers equally," he said.

"When I first arrived with Jacques [Villeneuve] and Olivier [Panis] it was very difficult to do that because we were simply not well enough organised, and sometimes we had to give one driver something and not give it the other. But it was in the full knowledge of both and we tried to distribute fairly.

"That situation for us changed a long time ago and the only rule is don't crash into each other. Apart from that, you have a responsibility to give them equal stuff and we would not countenance a contract that went against that."

SOURCE: Autosport

HORNER LAMENTS "MANIPULATED" RACE

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says it is a "great shame" that Formula 1 fans were offered a "manipulated" race in Germany.

Ferrari's Fernando Alonso won the Hockenheim race but only after his team talked to team-mate Felipe Massa on the radio and suggested he should let him through.

Moments later, Massa slowed down and Alonso took the lead.

Horner says the sport was the big loser and feels Ferrari had no reason to do what it did.

"It's a great shame for Formula 1 that the race was manipulated to give one driver a victory over the other," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

"We came in for a lot of criticism in Istanbul for allowing our drivers to race but I think that it's the fair and sporting thing to do.

"The only losers today are Formula 1. Ferrari are a big enough team that they shouldn't need to do that and Fernando is a good enough driver not to particularly at this point in the season when there are still hundreds of points available."

Horner admitted he felt sorry for the fans who missed the opportunity to see Ferrari's drivers racing each other.

"It's a great shame. Ferrari are a great team," he said. "It's a shame for Formula 1 that they didn't allow Felipe and Fernando to race each other. There are not so many points between them and it was so obvious how they moved the cars around.

"The biggest losers are the fans, the spectators, the viewers as a race win was handed to Fernando. Rightly or wrongly, we've allowed our drivers to race because we believe that's the sporting thing to do and it also is within the regulations.

"The regulation was introduced for a reason, to stop exactly this situation happening. The FIA has all of the facts and it was done in such an obvious way and it would be a great shame if it's left unpunished because it sets a precedent that is wrong for F1," added Horner, speaking before Ferrari was fined $100,000 and referred to the WMSC.

SOURCE: Autosport

SCHUMACHER SUPPORTS FERRARI'S DECISION

Michael Schumacher says he supports Ferrari's decision to hand Fernando Alonso victory at the German Grand Prix.

"I have been criticised in the past for exactly that and I understand 100% and I would have done exactly the same if I were in their situation," Schumacher told the BBC.

"At the end of the day what we're here for is fighting for a championship and there's only one that can win the championship.

"By the end of the year if you think you've lost the championship for exactly that point you will ask yourself, not only yourself, all the fans and the journalists and so on, why didn't you do so?"

Schumacher was involved in a similar row over teams orders back in 2002, when Ferrari asked then team-mate Rubens Barrichello to let the German through during the Austrian Grand Prix.

The move led to the FIA banning team orders.

The seven-time champion, now driving for Mercedes, says there have been clear team orders in previous races this year, with no controversy involved.

"In the last race for example, there were clear team orders, and everyone accepts those," he said. "So whether it's the last race or the second to last race or even earlier, what's the point?

"I can see in the years that we did it, because we were leading so much, people thought it was unnecessary. I can agree on that in a way.

"But in principal I fully cannot. I agree with what's going on, you have to do it in a way that's maybe nice and not too obvious, but there's only one target and that's winning the championship."

Former world champion Niki Lauda was critical of Ferrari's decision, labelling the race a fraud for the fans.

"An obvious and unacceptable episode of team orders. People buy tickets to see the best man win. What has happened is a fraud against the spectators," Lauda was quoted as saying by Gazzetta dello Sport.

"The Ferrari team was providing a superlative performance. Why did they want to ruin this way what would have been a perfect victory? Fernando has talked such nonsense that I've never heard before. He has shown he has no character."

SOURCE: Autosport

I see this two ways:

Spectators basically are getting robbed of a race if the team says to a driver "oi, move over", Alonso if he is as good as made out should be able to pass Massa.

However, from a team perspective, who do you support, the driver in the higher place in the championship out of the two or the one whos been luckier/better in the day. Honestly, if this was for the Championship (say Button was behind Barichello last year and Vettle was going to win the title if Button finished behind Barichello or Button would win it if he was ahead, would you say that Button was to over take or would it be fair and sporting for Barichello to move over?)

At the end of the day it depends where this sport wants to go, short term Alonso should have been made to over take but if there is a possibility that Alonso can get more points and maybe make it a three horse race to the finish, then wont the spectators at the end of the season get even more out of this?

Its one of those, your damed if you do and damed if you dont scenarios, Ferrari get Alonso feeling even more annoyed if was held up by Massa to begin with earlier in the race and with all the problems he has had with the saftey car of late. However do you say to Massa "sorry old bean, your not going to get the win even though you are first".

I would also wander what would happen if the Ferrari's had started to battle each other, would this then be "haha fail Ferrari take each other out" like it was with Red Bull? Who wins here?

Yea, I agree, if you're gonna do team orders, do it subtly, not so the whole world sees it, but If I was massa i would of done two options...

Drive the car: Go hell for leather so Fernando wouldn't catch or do his best to do so to defend the win, keeps pride, public respect and self-driven drive to win

Park the car: simply park on the side of the road and just tell them to stuff it

By doing either thing would create a massive uproar in the team garage, but its their fault, moving over for another driver this early in the title fight is just too much and I really feel for Felipe, he'll go all out in Hungary next week, or... just simply flouder with the sheer confidence knocked out of him

If it were me, i'd try and escape to Renault and join Rob.

Yea, I agree, if you're gonna do team orders, do it subtly, not so the whole world sees it, but If I was massa i would of done two options...

Drive the car: Go hell for leather so Fernando wouldn't catch or do his best to do so to defend the win, keeps pride, public respect and self-driven drive to win

Park the car: simply park on the side of the road and just tell them to stuff it

By doing either thing would create a massive uproar in the team garage, but its their fault, moving over for another driver this early in the title fight is just too much and I really feel for Felipe, he'll go all out in Hungary next week, or... just simply flouder with the sheer confidence knocked out of him

If it were me, i'd try and escape to Renault and join Rob.

kipi19

However you then get a reputation as a driver who is difficult to work with and not a team player by doing the second option. Its a hard situation, you are basically caught between a rock and a very hard place. Massa did the right thing I felt, he didnt talk about the event but made it clear he wasnt happy with it but also not in a way that makes him look bad (i.e. foul mouthed rant at the TV screen, nor walking out when asked awkward questions).

Alonso and Ferrari come of the worst here but as I say, would you really not ask a driver to back off if you thought there was a strong chance of being overtaken or whatever? Alonso is not the best deffending as we have seen in the past with Sato overtaking him in Canada a few years ago in the Super Aguri and I believe this has happened with other cars this season over taking him.

I like the question, is this an individual sport or a team sport? Which way you see that probably dictates whether you think teams telling drivers to swap positions is fair or not.

ALONSO: GERMANY WIN A "GREAT FEELING"

Fernando Alonso remains unmoved by the furore surrounding Ferrari's illegal use of team orders in the German Grand Prix - saying he still has a 'great feeling' from his victory in the event.

Although Ferrari was fined $100,000 and faces the possibility of further sanctions from the FIA for breaking the regulations in telling Felipe Massa to sacrifice the race lead for Alonso, the team remains unrepentant about what happened.

And Alonso said on Tuesday that his emotions after the weekend are only for the great job that Ferrari did in securing its first victory since the season-opening Bahrain Grand Prix.

"All wins are special," wrote Alonso on Ferrari's official website, as he made no reference to the team orders issue.

"Winning is a great feeling and that was the case in Hockenheim, especially when I think of the huge workload undertaken by everyone at Maranello to achieve this fantastic one-two finish.

"No one ever gave up and I know how pleased they were to see two Ferraris cross the line ahead of all our rivals. For over a month now we have been saying that we had to get back to winning at least once before the summer break and finally, we did it.

"We did not have much luck in some races and, because of unusual incidents, we did not pick up the points we deserved. There was a slight feeling of frustration with this lack of results, but at last in Germany, for once we had a normal race on a weekend when he had no problems whatsoever and the result was there for all to see."

Alonso says the result in Hockenheim has left him even more adamant that the team must lift its game in the second half of the campaign.

"The win does not change my approach to the rest of the season," he said. "We knew full before Hockenheim that our car was much more competitive and that was what made me so confident. Now we must continue in this direction, starting this coming weekend in Budapest."

Team-mate Massa is equally bullish about delivering a strong result again at this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix.

"In Germany, we produced a great team result and if people were asking why Ferrari kept saying for several weeks before that the F10 had improved a lot, they got the answer in Hockenheim," he said.

"But that does not mean we are sitting on our hands, because there will be even more updates coming this weekend and the result last weekend is motivation for everyone in the team to keep pushing even harder to keep the momentum going, improving race by race.

"There are other reasons to be optimistic about this weekend, including the fact that Bridgestone is bringing its Super-Soft and Medium tyres that have always suited the F10 very well, so maybe we can have another very competitive race.

"Throughout the year, we have seen that various teams' performance has been very much related to the track characteristics, with the exception of Red Bull, who have been competitive everywhere. So let's wait and see how we go at the Hungaroring.

"Personally, I have never had a good result at this circuit, but that has simply been down to circumstances, as I do enjoying driving here a lot and, in 2008 for example, the last time I actually raced here, I led for sixty laps until my engine failed. So all in all, there are many reasons why I am really looking forward to going back to Budapest in a couple of days time."

Massa also admits that the emotions heading back to Hungary will be special, one year on from the accident that left him with serious injuries.

"Going back to Budapest will be a very special weekend for me, for reasons which you can all appreciate as it was there, just over a year ago, that I was seriously injured when a spring from another car hit me on the head during Q2 on Saturday afternoon," he said.

"My first meeting when I arrive at the Hungaroring circuit will be with all the marshals and medical staff who did such a very good job of carefully getting me out of the cockpit. I want to thank these people, with whom I now feel a special bond.

"I had to stay in hospital for a week after the accident and I got to know the staff, who all treated me so well and one unusual result of the whole unfortunate episode is that I know I now have a lot more fans in Hungary."

SOURCE: Autosport

ED: The man really knows how to twist the knife, doesn't he?

BRAWN: TEAM ORDERS BAN "UNREALISTIC"

Mercedes GP team boss Ross Brawn believes the German Grand Prix furore proves that it is time to rethink the ban on team orders in Formula 1.

Ferrari was fined and referred to the FIA World Motor Sport Council after Felipe Massa moved aside to let his team-mate Fernando Alonso win the race.

The exchange of places provoked censure both from some rival teams and sections of the media and public - especially as Ferrari had to avoid openly admitting that it was a case of team orders.

Brawn acknowledged the public anger, but is adamant that team orders have a place in F1 and should not have to be disguised.

"I understand how F1 fans might be disappointed by what they have seen on Sunday," he told Gazzetta dello Sport.

"The rule that bans team orders is not realistic anymore. The teams and the FIA must find together a transparent solution that maintains the integrity of the competition and safeguards the sport."

Brawn was at Ferrari when its instruction for Rubens Barrichello to hand victory to Michael Schumacher in the 2002 Austrian GP prompted the team orders ban. He added that his current team Mercedes would want to use team orders appropriately in the right circumstances.

"Our drivers are asked to avoid clashing against each other," said Brawn, "and if one has the chance to take the title while the other one doesn't, we want both of them to act in the interest of the team without throwing away that opportunity."

SOURCE: Autosport

I raised the idea of this in my blog regarding the whole situation, and added it to the poll as well, but I think the way to eradicate the problem (not in the case of a "save fuel" team order) is, in addition to Sporting Regulation 39.1 as it is, include the following:

Excluding following an illegal overtaking manouvre, a known problem with a car or an incident, the action of a driver who knowingly or willingly allows another driver to pass is prohibited.Rule Suggestion by Redders

Now obviously this doesn't remove the issue of team orders completely - teams can still swap positions between cars in the pit stop phase - but other than that, a rule to the extent of the way it is written there pretty much leaves just one option - to fight for position.

Illegal overtaking manouvre - It is already in the rule book that should a driver overtake illegally, then the position must be handed back - therefore this can be excluded.

Known problem with the car - A driver with a known problem won't have enough speed to fight for position anyway, and thus should be allowing other drivers past as it is. Again, can be excluded.

Incident - Will have either stopped on track or gone off the circuit, so can be passed anyway under any condition. Again, excludable.

In theory, this closes almost all the loopholes. Drivers could still make a visibled "mistake" that allows a teammate through, for example, or as mentioned earlier can swap in the pit stops but other than that teams would have to sacrifice one car in order to get the other where they want it to be unless they race - therefore preventing them from trying to gain an unfair advantage in the constructors championship which would be their main aim.

I guess if anyone else can see some flaws in this, we could continually re-word it until it makes sense and any new loopholes anyone else finds can be closed too. Regulations are in complex enough English as it already is.

BARRICHELLO FEELS SORRY FOR MASSA

Rubens Barrichello has rallied behind Felipe Massa in the wake of the Ferrari team orders controversy - saying no driver should be forced to experience what his compatriot has gone through in the last week.

With Ferrari's decision to order Massa to give up the lead in Hockenheim still a major talking point in the Formula 1 paddock, Barrichello revealed on Thursday that he has spoken to his fellow Brazilian about the situation.

And, having lived through a similar team orders situation after the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, he reckons the matter goes far beyond what is written in the regulations.

"All I can say is that I am very sorry to him, to see what he had to go through such a bad thing," said Barrichello at the Hungaroring. "Nobody should be able to go through those feelings. Felipe is a friend and I wish he didn't have to go through it."

Speaking about the team orders situation, Massa said: "I just think we should do something to stop this thing, because at the end of the day it could get into a bit of a drama.

"When you are racing you want to beat the other one, but I wouldn't feel nice and feel good [if a team said] if I give you this and then you win. I never did like it. That is why I changed teams and that is why I went on.

"It is in the hand on the top people to change that. You should be allowed to race. If you don't win the championship by one point, so be it.

"And if you win the championship by one point because someone gave it to you, what is the point? If I had to be a bad guy and be world champion. I don't care. I will teach my boys that, and I will be happy with that."

SOURCE: Autosport

MASSA: I'M NOT A NUMBER TWO DRIVER

Felipe Massa has insisted that he has not fallen into a number two driver role by handing German Grand Prix victory to Fernando Alonso, and says that if the same situation arose again, he would expect to win the race.

The Hockenheim stewards fined Ferrari and referred the team to the FIA World Motor Sport Council after ruling that Massa allowing Alonso past to take the win, shortly after the team had radioed the Brazilian to inform him that his team-mate 'was faster', constituted a clear breach of the rules banning team orders.

The German GP incident has attracted widespread criticism from the media and fans. In the pre-race press conference at the Hungaroring today, Massa said he stood by what happened at Hockenheim - but that did not mean he had accepted a subservient role.

"The time I say I am number two driver, I will not race any more," he insisted.

When asked what would happen if he was faced with the same situation this weekend, Massa replied: "I will win."

He said he had received assurances from Ferrari that he was still allowed to fight for victories for himself.

"For sure I have spoken to everybody inside the team," said Massa. "As I said I am not here really to race, I am here to win. That is really my point. As long as I am in the condition to win, we need to go to the end, to fight for the victory.

"I am a professional, I work for the team and everybody has to understand my point."

Massa underlined that he had been supporting the overall interests of Ferrari at Hockenheim - pointing out that he had supported Kimi Raikkonen when required in 2007, and that Raikkonen had returned the favour when Massa was fighting for the title in '08.

"I am working for the team and we know how important it is to work for the team," he said.

"You remember what happened in 2007 and 2008, so I don't think I have to go through all the points. If the team really has the chance to win the championship, I want the best for the team."

He also denied that the events of Hockenheim had damaged his standing within Ferrari. Asked if Germany had changed his relationship with the team he has raced for since 2006, Massa replied: "For sure it makes me even stronger."

SOURCE: Autosport

I have a problem with your rule proposal. In most overtakes, the guy that was in front both knowing and willingly lets the driver by, otherwise risk wrecking both cars.XSamFisherX

And thus, the whole wording issue is proven to be so damn difficult.

Should the rule be scraped?

If two drivers are driving a car made by the team, surely the team has a right to try and get themselves into the most competative postition possible internally? I mean fair enough, trying to get other teams to help would be over the line but should this be a team sport or one of individuals?

I mean take football, should a player who has had 20 shots and no goals be subsituted even if his next touch may score a goal?

HORNER BACKS TEAM ORDERS BAN

Formula 1's ban on team orders should remain in place - because the sport is better off if drivers are allowed to race each other.

That is the view of Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner, who thinks that although F1 teams and the FIA should be willing to talk about the merits of keeping the team order ban, he ultimately believes it is better off staying in the regulations.

"I think the rule was brought in for a reason - to avoid the situation that happened in 2002 [Austria]," said Horner ahead of the Hungarian Grand Prix. "F1 is a team sport, but the rules are as they are. The issue in Hockenheim was very much an issue between the FIA and Ferrari.

"I think moving forward, it is perhaps an area that needs to be looked at. But I think for me, F1 it has been quite healthy in the last couple of years where drivers have raced each other and I think that that should be encouraged rather than negated."

Although Horner acknowledges that team orders have been a part of motor racing for years, he thinks it vital that people remember that they have been outlawed from F1 since the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix controversy.

"Team orders have existed since John Surtees drove a Ferrari, Niki Lauda - Michael Schumacher's time through different generations. The difference now is that there is a regulation that says they are prohibited and that is the issue under discussion regarding Hockenheim - where we go from there needs some debate between the teams and the governing body.

"Rightly or wrongly, we've allowed our guys to race and that is something they have done throughout this year.

"In Turkey we paid the ultimate price for that, where one retired and the other achieved a lesser result than he should have done. If the rules were different then perhaps we would have addressed that race differently, but the philosophy of Red Bull Racing is to allow both drivers to race, as Mr. [Dietrich] Mateschitz has openly said."

SOURCE: Autosport

Something that I said at another thread:

"... being on holiday in Thailand, I was VERY disappointed with not being able to watch the race. Not even on iPlayer as I was out of the UK.
I was able to listen to David Croft on the radio version though.
Because you can't watch anything whilst listening to the radio, Croft's skill over Legard's was incredibly.
I should listen to the radio more...
I'll also be missing Hungary which is a shame really as I was looking forward to Hockenheim and Hungary.
I'll be able to watch Spa though because I'll be back on the 23rd of August.

Anyways, I was reading the live commentary on the BBC whilst the race was going on and read that Massa was leading and was quite pleased for him as he hasn't been so good since 2008. And then read the radio message.
Why didn't Massa just say " No, I don't understand the message" or "Sorry, I can't hear you over, the cheers of the crowd/ the engine/ my awesomeness"???
It's really frustrating when something like this happens.
So and so was faster than him so was going to overtake anyways, if that was true, then why couldn't the "faster" driver overtake of his own accord?
It was like when people, after the Webber/Kovalainen crash of Valencia, said that Webber was faster and Kovalainen should have let him through.
If the "faster" driver is truely faster, then they should be able to easily overtake (well maybe not easily, as Alonson nicely demonstrated in Monaco)."

AND

"Couldn't he just pretend he didn't hear what was said and just ignore it?
Or he could have just said, "Yes, I understand, I will let Alonso through".
Then the FIA will have something to work with and he would get the win back!
But there are other teams that are better than Ferrari out there.
Well, maybe two.
Mclaren aren't going to take Massa but RBR might.
Webber might have to retire and Massa will be in RBR."

There haven't been many people replying on this thread have there?

Horner, of all people. Ha. Heard this discussion: How is removing the good wing from Webber's car and putting it on Vettel's any different than Massa being told to let Alonso through? Both are deliberate attempts to change the outcome of the race. Are they not?XSamFisherX

But then you could say that a driver trying to overtake someone is trying to change the outcome of a race.

[QUOTE="XSamFisherX"]Horner, of all people. Ha. Heard this discussion: How is removing the good wing from Webber's car and putting it on Vettel's any different than Massa being told to let Alonso through? Both are deliberate attempts to change the outcome of the race. Are they not?dabest2500

But then you could say that a driver trying to overtake someone is trying to change the outcome of a race.

[QUOTE="dabest2500"]

[QUOTE="XSamFisherX"]Horner, of all people. Ha. Heard this discussion: How is removing the good wing from Webber's car and putting it on Vettel's any different than Massa being told to let Alonso through? Both are deliberate attempts to change the outcome of the race. Are they not?XSamFisherX

But then you could say that a driver trying to overtake someone is trying to change the outcome of a race.

But you said things that would change the outcome of a race.

But you said things that would change the outcome of a race.

dabest2500

[QUOTE="dabest2500"]

But you said things that would change the outcome of a race.

XSamFisherX

But overtaking is a deliberate attempt, is it not?

I really have no comment other than... An overtake in and of itself is not a deliberate attempt by the team but by the driver on his own accord to benefit his and his team's position, it is racing. The team did not sabotage the overtaken driver. For the record, I voted option three, that you can't prevent team orders. There is a second issue here. Formula One is on a very, very short list of racing series that ban team orders. And there is the issue that winning a grand prix apparently means nothing if a driver is willing to throw a win away on purpose. XSamFisherX

How about the team engineers pulling out a quick pitstop.

That's a deliberate attempt by the team.

Well not really, pit mechanics will give 100% at every single pit stop in a race to get the car out as quick as possible as every second counts. Its pure chance the drive hits the pit stop exactly in the right position, that there are no problems getting the wheels on and off and that the pit lane is completly clear when the driver enters and exits.

I think what is trying to be used by delibrate is a team making a concious decision to affect the order of their drivers. Examples would be telling one to allow another to over take, giving new faster parts to only one driver, changing the car set ups to benefit one driver over anothers.

Overtaking is purely at driver discression, but thats racing and thats the point of the sport for teams to try and get ahead. That is the part I debate, whether this is a team sport or an individual sport. To me if two drivers are using the same car they should be prepared to accept what the team, right or wrong, feels is in its best interests. A team would not detriment one driver over another on purpose such as telling a driver to finish last to block lap cars and allow your team mate through. Well, not allways (as in the case of Renault but this was found out and was a very niave and frankly dangerous thing to do which was widely condoned).

But what XSamFisherX said was that he condoned deliberate attempts to change the outcome of the race. I simply saw this as invalid so listed things that would change the outcome of a race so that he/she would realise his/her's mistake.

Things that affect the outcome of a race for example:

Overtaking

Retiring

Pitting

A team asking two cars to swap positions

etc...

How would retiring be deliberate? Sabotage and mechanical faliure are two very different things.

Piting is also a requirment to have tyre changes but accidents are purely accidents unless one driver purposefully goes into another which is punished by the FIA.

I agree with what you say on overtaking but deliberate is where you decide to do something, a cause, not the effect. A person would have to decide to retire the car or overtake or make a pit stop, a car breaking down is not deliberate as how can you drive a car if there is no power to the wheels or the gear box is stuck in reverse?

I think what Sam Fisher means is decisions made to affect the out come of the race that are not in sporting interest. Examples would be a team telling a driver to allow somebody to pass him to the detriment of that driver or that team. Overtaking however is deliberate but the deffending driver is not usually intentionally allowing a driver to get past them, but sometimes they allow the car behind to pass to focus on their own targets etc (I mean with a Ferrari behind the Virgin cars, they generally let the Ferrari past as they wont be able to hold that position when the pit stops come around as the Ferrari will do a quicker lap when they get free air either by pitting early or going longer than the other cars) and it can be dangerous having a car weaving behind trying to get past as you would concentrate on the mirrors rather than whats ahead.

Sorry, forgot the deliberate part.

Things that delibartely affect the outcome of a race:

Overtaking

Drive Faster

Crash On Purpose

etc...

Those are deliberate things but  half of them are legal.

I understand:

"I think what Sam Fisher means is decisions made to affect the out come of the race that are not in sporting interest. Examples would be a team telling a driver to allow somebody to pass him to the detriment of that driver or that team."

But I responded to the wording in his/her post in a hope that he/she would realise that he/she made a mistake. I know what he/she meant but just wanted to help him/her realise his mistake without telling him/her.

Fair enough.

Where do you stand on this out of interest? Do you think team orders should be allowed or do you think they should continue to be banned?

I think that should continue to be banned, but teams will always find ways around it.

As you said, F1 is a team sport, but the driver is also a part of the team, are they not?

I know that teams hire drivers but the employees need to be treated fairly otherwise both championships could be thrown away via friction in the team.

How about you, where do you stand?

I say the rule should be scraped. It is impossible to stop this occuring as you can do all sorts indirectly. Maybe tell the driver to turn the rev limit down as the car is having some heat issues, "forget" to have a wheel at the pit stop or have the car held up in the pit lane.

I would like to see cars racing of course, but there is a business and team behind a driver. I like the saying "a team needs a star, but a star needs a team". One can not exist without the other, so if Ferrari felt it was best for Alonso to win to get his confidence back as he has had it harsh the last few races then maybe thats the way to go. Massa was backing up Alonso it seemed at the time as Vettle was gaining, if the team felt if he caught up and Vettle would get past Alonso it may cause problems then they had to make a decision. For the spectators it wasnt the best decision now, but who knows at the end of the season. If Ferrari can keep the car at the front then Alonso may become a 5th driver to compete for the title which means more action for spectators to watch then.

If a rule is to be kept then this needs to be ran more efficiently, but realistically would that happen. Would Rob Smedly go the FIA and say "Ferrari told me to get Massa to let Alonso pass", no, as that would cause issues for his job and political issues.

It probably happens more often than we know. Thats not to say it definatly does but perhaps subconciously a team favours one driver over another, wages for instance, I wander if any team gives equal pay to both drivers.

Back to back championship winning drivers like Alonso don't need to be pampered and don't need extra asisstance. If Vettel was catching then Alonso just had to raise is game.

But it is also the drivers decision to sign that contract.

A team like Ferrari have handled this appallingly, instead of saying something near the end of the race like you need to turn your engine down, you are running low on fuel etc. would be less obvious.

If I was Massa, I wouldn't let Alonso overtake me, this shows weakness in a driver, it's 25 whole points, 7 more than 2nd place. Why would you throw something like that away?

Can't you just pretend that you didn't hear the engineer?

Anyways, I'm off to bed now, it's 5:03 AM on Saturday here in Thailand (bloody holiday).

FERRARI NOT WORRIED MASSA WILL LEAVE

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali is not worried that Felipe Massa may turn his back on the outfit in the wake of the team orders controversy.

Although Rubens Barrichello famously ended his Ferrari contract one year early because he was fed up of being treated as a number two, Domenicali said in Hungary that he reckoned Massa would view the situation much differently.

"No, no, I don't think so," he said when asked about the possibility of Massa becoming disillusioned with the situation. "No, I don't think so because Felipe, as I said, we have always been very happy about Felipe.

"We were helping on the personal side, on the professional side, we are proud of him and we don't change our view. I think that the philosophy of his life is really part of our spirit and we respect that and I think that he respects [that] too.

"At this moment, when you are surrounded by a lot of people that are pushing you, friends, real friends, friends that are not real friends, people that are saying to you something and when you turn your back they say the opposite. It's normal that you react with this kind of energy.

"It's important that this energy has to be not negative, but it has to be positive, positive for him, because that's part of the game, very positive for him once again, as I said, but also positive for the team, because that was also on his statement, so honestly I don't think so."

Domenicali also reckoned that Ferrari had been unfairly criticised for its treatment of Massa in Hockenheim - especially considering the faith it had put in the Brazilian during earlier stages of his career.

"No one more than Ferrari has supported Felipe, every time, all the time," he said. "As I said, we go back to short memories. A couple of races ago, a lot of people in this room were pushing us to say what's it all about, what is happening and we always said, no, no, Felipe's a great driver, he's a great man, for sure he wants to win because it's what we want and we want to see him as part of the team because we are feeling for him.

"So no one can say Ferrari has done anything to Felipe. We always support him, we feel a lot for him. I don't want to follow this because I don't think it is correct and I don't want that people have short memories, because that is wrong, in life and in sport."

SOURCE: Autosport

I agree, although the issue with the "not hearing" is that it can then go two ways with the engineers not hearing if you have a problem during testing. Massa did the right thing, Alonso however, I dont agree with his approach of basically forcing his number 1 status on a team. Look at Renault, he did really well to begin with but then when a younger team mate came in it seemed as if Alonso pushed the team into being a one car team and the other was a test car essentially.Garfield360UK

Couldn't he just pretend he didn't hear what was said and just ignore it?
Or he could have just said, "Yes, I understand, I will let Alonso through".
Then the FIA will have something to work with and he would get the win back!

Why didn't Massa just say " No, I don't understand the message" or "Sorry, I can't hear you over, the cheers of the crowd/ the engine/ my awesomeness"?

I never liked Alonso, he was always a bit of a **** head in my opinion.

And what happened to Renault? 2005 and 2006 were championship winning years, what happened to all the other years after that?

What I have to say about this article is that if they really like Massa, why did they take away such an important win?

It was Massa's return to form, and they just stole it from him.

How far can Domenicali keep digging?

Sadly, Massa would be at fault for letting Alonso through as much as the team would be for ordering him to let Alonso through, so even if he had said "OK, I'll let Alonso through", he'll lose his points too. This is why it's always lose-lose for anyone in Massa's position. Either he faces a potential firing from Ferrari for not following orders, or potentially get punished with Ferrari for complying with the team order.

In regards to Renault following 2006, Alonso left. They had a team of Fisichella and Kovalainen, which screams "midfield" at best. Then when Alonso came back, they were too far behind on the game behind McLaren/Ferrari, but they were one of the best for in-season improvements.

Alonso did exactly what Schumacher did, but difference is the Subtltey of how it was done, Schumacher would never have gone screaming and kicking about never getting his own way, he would always be giving the details to his engineers and delievering the results.

Least thats how I saw it anyway =/

Sadly, Massa would be at fault for letting Alonso through as much as the team would be for ordering him to let Alonso through, so even if he had said "OK, I'll let Alonso through", he'll lose his points too. This is why it's always lose-lose for anyone in Massa's position. Either he faces a potential firing from Ferrari for not following orders, or potentially get punished with Ferrari for complying with the team order.

In regards to Renault following 2006, Alonso left. They had a team of Fisichella and Kovalainen, which screams "midfield" at best. Then when Alonso came back, they were too far behind on the game behind McLaren/Ferrari, but they were one of the best for in-season improvements.

Redders1989

Wasn't Fisichella good when Alonso was around?

He was challenging for podiums.

How about Massa pretending that he didn't hear it?

He could always move to McLaren or RBR.

Alonso did exactly what Schumacher did, but difference is the Subtltey of how it was done, Schumacher would never have gone screaming and kicking about never getting his own way, he would always be giving the details to his engineers and delievering the results.

Least thats how I saw it anyway =/

kipi19

Ferrari have been in F1 for ages and cannot expect that sending a message as obvious as that won't be noticed.

He was pretty good but he is more a solid midfield driver, he has a few wins I think but he is more a solid points scorer.

McLaren and Red Bull already have drivers, so it would mean one of them moving, I admit Webber could move on from all what has been going on but surely that just makes Massa number two to Vettel or if he went to Mclaren he would be number two to Hamilton?

I still dont think pretending to not hear would work as they would just send the message a few times then possibly they would not be as helpful to him when he requested something over the radio. You cant just ignore your boss, it doesnt work that way.

He was pretty good but he is more a solid midfield driver, he has a few wins I think but he is more a solid points scorer.

McLaren and Red Bull already have drivers, so it would mean one of them moving, I admit Webber could move on from all what has been going on but surely that just makes Massa number two to Vettel or if he went to Mclaren he would be number two to Hamilton?

I still dont think pretending to not hear would work as they would just send the message a few times then possibly they would not be as helpful to him when he requested something over the radio. You cant just ignore your boss, it doesnt work that way.

Garfield360UK

Mark Webber knows that this could be his last year to win the championship as time is running out. When Webber retires Massa could just easily jump in with Ferrari on his CV. The only time that Red Bull have been biased is during the Webber and Vettel front wing thing and Horner got a bit red in the face. That will teach him. I don't think that he should move to McLaren as Button and Hamilton are already very strong. It has two British drivers and a British test driver.

Massa wouldn't need to request anything over the radio because:

1) Pitstops are out of the way

2) Talking to your team on the radio after you ignored them will falsify any claims of you not being ablre to hear them.

Problemm is, what if he had a problem with the car or he had to make an unexpected pit stop?

Massa would also have to wait for Webber to retire, so not even next season as Webber is under contract to Red Bull for then.