Analyst: Wii is 'fool's gold' for developers

From gamasutra.com:

In Gamasutra's new analyst column 'Analyze This', Cowen & Company's Doug Creutz says that despite Wii's massive installed base, its market may be just "fool's gold" to game company investors, who still find the PS3/Xbox 360 dev combination compelling.

At a glance, developing Wii games may look like the best investment thanks to its dominant market share. But when asked how he'd rate investing in development for current platforms, game market financial analyst Creutz explains:

"The choice here is really between investing for the Xbox 360 and PS3 -- since their capabilities are fairly similar -- or the Wii. I would caution investors and developers that the larger installed base of the Wii is really a bit of a red herring.

In the U.S., there is a 19-million unit installed base for the Wii versus 22-million units combined for the 360 and PS3. Assuming some overlap in the 360/PS3 installed bases, they're roughly equivalent.

In addition, Nintendo is the dominant publisher on the Wii with over one-third of software market share on its platform. Guitar Hero and Rock Band account for one-sixth of sales.

So the addressable market for third-party Wii titles is only about half of what the installed base would imply. The situation on the 360/PS3 is less daunting, with less than a quarter of software dollar share going to first-party publishers and Guitar Hero/Rock Band.

The other issue is that the Xbox 360 and PS3 are AAA-oriented platforms, while the Wii is casual-oriented. There is a very clear correlation between game quality and unit sales on the 360/PS3, while there is very little correlation on the Wii, at least for third-party games.

Thus, in some sense you have more control over your fate on the 360/PS3 if you can come up with a high-quality game. Whereas on the Wii, it's a bit of a crapshoot for what works and what doesn't.

I think the Wii installed base represents, to a certain extent, fool's gold for someone looking to invest in video game development.

You're rolling the dice on succeeding in a market which has proved very resistant to generating meaningful hits away from Nintendo titles and the music genre."

Discuss.

I think some people are still in denial about the success of the Wii. I also think that the people that refuse to accept that the Wii has some great games are blindly caught up in brand loyalty. This thread would probably be better suited for System Wars.

I think some people are still in denial about the success of the Wii. I also think that the people that refuse to accept that the Wii has some great games are blindly caught up in brand loyalty. This thread would probably be better suited for System Wars.

Bigboi500

This theory has been around since launch. The "Wii is just a fad" theory and that it will eventually become a money hole. As far as the facts are concerned, Nintendo is still too busy counting money to care.FishSquared

Well if that's how Nintendo feels, then I honestly doubt that sort of attitude is going to do any favors for this industry other than to widen the rift between Nintendo and 3rd parties. This is not about what's best for Nintendo, this is about what's best for the entire industry.

[QUOTE="FishSquared"]This theory has been around since launch. The "Wii is just a fad" theory and that it will eventually become a money hole. As far as the facts are concerned, Nintendo is still too busy counting money to care.BladesOfAthena

Well if that's how Nintendo feels, then I honestly doubt that sort of attitude is going to do any favors for this industry other than to widen the rift between Nintendo and 3rd parties. This is not about what's best for Nintendo, this is about what's best for the entire industry.

[QUOTE="FishSquared"]This theory has been around since launch. The "Wii is just a fad" theory and that it will eventually become a money hole. As far as the facts are concerned, Nintendo is still too busy counting money to care.BladesOfAthena

Well if that's how Nintendo feels, then I honestly doubt that sort of attitude is going to do any favors for this industry other than to widen the rift between Nintendo and 3rd parties. This is not about what's best for Nintendo, this is about what's best for the entire industry.

Ive never understood the "nintendo makes all the top selling games so why try" attitude. Seems kind of defeatist and downright lazy to me. Did it ever occur to them to..oh i dont know.. TRY HARDER. I think some developers thought of the Wii as a system that they could just dump their half-arsed efforts on and rake in cash because of the userbase. I think they underestimated the tastes of casual gamers. While it seems as if they will just "buy anything" thats actually not the case. And because it will actually take some creativity,innovation and time to produce something viable, its easier to go with what you know. Slap some blood and gore on a FPS engine and sell the package rather than the gameplay. I think you have to stand out more with casual gamers(not necessarily with quality, just get some spotlight on you), and because some developers feel that its not easy as they think it should be to do that, you get the "its not really worth it" attitude.

and just to get this out of the way- I dont own a Wii, i have a 360 and a PS3.

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

[QUOTE="FishSquared"]This theory has been around since launch. The "Wii is just a fad" theory and that it will eventually become a money hole. As far as the facts are concerned, Nintendo is still too busy counting money to care.FishSquared

Well if that's how Nintendo feels, then I honestly doubt that sort of attitude is going to do any favors for this industry other than to widen the rift between Nintendo and 3rd parties. This is not about what's best for Nintendo, this is about what's best for the entire industry.

NoA, though....Skylock00

No kidding. I was reading that thread on GAF about how NOA won't publish Fatal Frame 4 in the states, even though NOJ and NOE are publishing it in their respective territories.

It took analysts years to figure out something that developers knew on day one. If you really look at it, it's quite clear that developers are ignoring the Wii and the reasons why they are doing so are quite clear as well. Both from a creative and business standpoint, the Wii simply isn't a viable platform for most developers.

[QUOTE="Skylock00"]NoA, though....rragnaar

No kidding. I was reading that thread on GAF about how NOA won't publish Fatal Frame 4 in the states, even though NOJ and NOE are publishing it in their respective territories.

NOE and NOA switched places. NOE > NOA the world has gone mad!

i think part of the problem is brand recognition. yeah, nintendo's quality titles are selling well but look at the covers. sticking the marioor zelda name on there is going to sell copies. 3rd party publishers are bringing some great games like okami, no more heroes, and madworld. those are not established franchises like mario or zelda. i think that the great new games brought to wii by 3rd parties can sell, but they need to be expanded into franchises first. for instance, i expect NMH2 to do well.

Ive never understood the "nintendo makes all the top selling games so why try" attitude. Seems kind of defeatist and downright lazy to me. Did it ever occur to them to..oh i dont know.. TRY HARDER. I think some developers thought of the Wii as a system that they could just dump their half-arsed efforts on and rake in cash because of the userbase. I think they underestimated the tastes of casual gamers. While it seems as if they will just "buy anything" thats actually not the case. And because it will actually take some creativity,innovation and time to produce something viable, its easier to go with what you know. Slap some blood and gore on a FPS engine and sell the package rather than the gameplay. I think you have to stand out more with casual gamers(not necessarily with quality, just get some spotlight on you), and because some developers feel that its not easy as they think it should be to do that, you get the "its not really worth it" attitude.

and just to get this out of the way- I dont own a Wii, i have a 360 and a PS3.

WittyGBanter

Good post. I agree.

However, IMO while the developers are somewhat at fault here, I do see what they are upset about. The industry at the end of last generation was moving in a certain direction, the devs knew where it was headed and made their plans accordingly. Then Nintendo came out of nowhere and introduced the motion controls. Now you had developers wanting to seemlesly integrate storytelling with gameplay (MGS4, Heavy Rain etc. ) or wanting to expand upon online play (RE5, COD4, Halo 3 etc. ), finding themselves toying around with a much older hardware. (A hardware that didn't even work like the devs thought it would, and 2 and a half years later, Wii Motion Plus still doesn't have a released date.) IMO, Nintendo could've still introduced the motion controls and still released a more up to date hardware that would've allowed the developers to pursue not only their ideas, but also the creativity and innovation the casuals (or even the Hardcore) gamers look for in a game. I'm sorry, but I just can't blame the developers entirely for not pursuing innovation on Nintendo's console.

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers. They chose to not take any risks and released a console that was most probably profitable on Day 1. They only cared about themselves and their stock holders and yeah, that's very smart of them. They didn't need to put a Bluray drive or a Cell processor to make their console compete with next gen (current gen) consoles. The 360 is a great example of that. But they didn't even try. THey chose the profitable route and screwed over the devs in the process.

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers.

S0lidSnake

EDIT: I do have some theories and thoughts as to why the Wii hasn't really been striking a strong chord with developers, namely western ones, that has to with reasons outside of Nintendo's own games, or even the hardware restriction, that I've figured through my contacts in the professional game audio departments of the industry.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers.

Skylock00

Just curious. What's MS and Sony done that's got you so Up In Flames? :P (I know you are Skylock and not UpInFlames, but just wanted to use his username anyway......)

The only thing I can think of is MS completely ignoring the RROD problem, but they also had to take a multi-billion dollar loss for it. And Sony for pricing their console so ridiculously high. Sony also has taken billions of dollars in losses. One of my friends took a marketing course a year ago and his professor (I think) mentioned how PS3s losses wiped off all the profit Sony had accumulated from PS1 and PS2 sales. Actually, I believe they are still taking a loss on each console sold. EVERYONE gave MS a hard time during the height of the RROD era, and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers.

Skylock00

Hey, I'm just telling it like it is, no need to be ultra defensive. I see lots of opinions that rub me off the wrong way too, but you don't see me getting up all in arms about it. Regardless of where you go on the internet, there will always be something that may offend, so the only way is to just simply deal with it. And yes, all 3 companies have pulled crap in one way or another, but this is Nintendo we're talking about.

and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.

S0lidSnake

Yeah, I remember that very well. If Sony fans can take it, then Nintendo fans should very well do the same as well. :P

[

Just curious. What's MS and Sony done that's got you so Up In Flames? :P (I know you are Skylock and not UpInFlames, but just wanted to use his username anyway......)

The only thing I can think of is MS completely ignoring the RROD problem, but they also had to take a multi-billion dollar loss for it. And Sony for pricing their console so ridiculously high. Sony also has taken billions of dollars in losses. One of my friends took a marketing course a year ago and his professor (I think) mentioned how PS3s losses wiped off all the profit Sony had accumulated from PS1 and PS2 sales. Actually, I believe they are still taking a loss on each console sold. EVERYONE gave MS a hard time during the height of the RROD era, and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.

S0lidSnake

[QUOTE="Skylock00"][QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers.

BladesOfAthena

Hey, I'm just telling it like it is, no need to be ultra defensive. I see lots of opinions that rub me off the wrong way too, but you don't see me getting up all in arms about it. Regardless of where you go on the internet, there will always be something that may offend, so the only way is to just simply deal with it. And yes, all 3 companies have pulled crap in one way or another, but this is Nintendo we're talking about.

You call that ultra defensive?! I really did not see his reply that way, seemed to more an observation, really!

[QUOTE="WittyGBanter"]

Ive never understood the "nintendo makes all the top selling games so why try" attitude. Seems kind of defeatist and downright lazy to me. Did it ever occur to them to..oh i dont know.. TRY HARDER. I think some developers thought of the Wii as a system that they could just dump their half-arsed efforts on and rake in cash because of the userbase. I think they underestimated the tastes of casual gamers. While it seems as if they will just "buy anything" thats actually not the case. And because it will actually take some creativity,innovation and time to produce something viable, its easier to go with what you know. Slap some blood and gore on a FPS engine and sell the package rather than the gameplay. I think you have to stand out more with casual gamers(not necessarily with quality, just get some spotlight on you), and because some developers feel that its not easy as they think it should be to do that, you get the "its not really worth it" attitude.

and just to get this out of the way- I dont own a Wii, i have a 360 and a PS3.

S0lidSnake

Good post. I agree.

However, IMO while the developers are somewhat at fault here, I do see what they are upset about. The industry at the end of last generation was moving in a certain direction, the devs knew where it was headed and made their plans accordingly. Then Nintendo came out of nowhere and introduced the motion controls. Now you had developers wanting to seemlesly integrate storytelling with gameplay (MGS4, Heavy Rain etc. ) or wanting to expand upon online play (RE5, COD4, Halo 3 etc. ), finding themselves toying around with a much older hardware. (A hardware that didn't even work like the devs thought it would, and 2 and a half years later, Wii Motion Plus still doesn't have a released date.) IMO, Nintendo could've still introduced the motion controls and still released a more up to date hardware that would've allowed the developers to pursue not only their ideas, but also the creativity and innovation the casuals (or even the Hardcore) gamers look for in a game. I'm sorry, but I just can't blame the developers entirely for not pursuing innovation on Nintendo's console.

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers. They chose to not take any risks and released a console that was most probably profitable on Day 1. They only cared about themselves and their stock holders and yeah, that's very smart of them. They didn't need to put a Bluray drive or a Cell processor to make their console compete with next gen (current gen) consoles. The 360 is a great example of that. But they didn't even try. THey chose the profitable route and screwed over the devs in the process.

I absolutely agree with you. Nintendo's decision to not compete at all on the hardware front essentially put them in a similar relationship with the 3rd parties as the GC days but for different reasons. I cant say i disagree with much of anything you said.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.

BladesOfAthena

Yeah, I remember that very well. If Sony fans can take it, then Nintendo fans should very well do the same as well. :P

Oh we took it alright! We have been used and abused so much in these forums ever since that fateful E3 2006 press conference that we are somewhat okay with it. I deal with Sony screw ups by calling out Sony before anyone else does. :P

Hey, I'm just telling it like it is, no need to be ultra defensive. I see lots of opinions that rub me off the wrong way too, but you don't see me getting up all in arms about it. Regardless of where you go on the internet, there will always be something that may offend, so the only way is to just simply deal with it. And yes, all 3 companies have pulled crap in one way or another, but this is Nintendo we're talking about.

BladesOfAthena

You really aren't telling it as it is, though, in my book, when you merely post up an article and follow it up with "discuss." That's just a copy/paste job, to me.

[QUOTE="Skylock00"][QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

P.S Nintendo deserves all the crap it gets from the industry, the developers and us gamers.

BladesOfAthena

Hey, I'm just telling it like it is, no need to be ultra defensive. I see lots of opinions that rub me off the wrong way too, but you don't see me getting up all in arms about it. Regardless of where you go on the internet, there will always be something that may offend, so the only way is to just simply deal with it. And yes, all 3 companies have pulled crap in one way or another, but this is Nintendo we're talking about.

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

Hey, I'm just telling it like it is, no need to be ultra defensive. I see lots of opinions that rub me off the wrong way too, but you don't see me getting up all in arms about it. Regardless of where you go on the internet, there will always be something that may offend, so the only way is to just simply deal with it. And yes, all 3 companies have pulled crap in one way or another, but this is Nintendo we're talking about.

Skylock00

You really aren't telling it as it is, though, in my book, when you merely post up an article and follow it up with "discuss." That's just a copy/paste job, to me.

I'm not giving you a lecture, I'm giving you a heads up. From the tone of your post, you sounded pretty upset and I just thought you needed to chillax a bit. If my post sounded abrasive, then I'm sorry but I just don't appreciate when people try to derail the topic by talking about other companies that bear no relevance to this thread.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.BladesOfAthena

Heh well I don't remember Sony fans taking it very well in particular, but what that has to do with the price of tea in China, I have no idea. That's basically boiling down the concerns over arguments like these to fanboy arguments intead of the points that are being made.

NOA has really peeved me off lately. No denying that. I think they should be called out for some of the nonsense decisions they've been making. But that's not the same as saying that the Wii isn't a viable platform, or that it's "bad for the industry" as you implied in your recent post.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

[

Just curious. What's MS and Sony done that's got you so Up In Flames? :P (I know you are Skylock and not UpInFlames, but just wanted to use his username anyway......)

The only thing I can think of is MS completely ignoring the RROD problem, but they also had to take a multi-billion dollar loss for it. And Sony for pricing their console so ridiculously high. Sony also has taken billions of dollars in losses. One of my friends took a marketing course a year ago and his professor (I think) mentioned how PS3s losses wiped off all the profit Sony had accumulated from PS1 and PS2 sales. Actually, I believe they are still taking a loss on each console sold. EVERYONE gave MS a hard time during the height of the RROD era, and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.

Skylock00

What I meant by listing their losses was that Sony and MS have paid for their mistakes, so I guess people think it's punishment enough. Now when we (or at least me), when I look at Nintendo and see them laughing all the way to the bank, I want THEM to pay for it too. I'm sure once Wii starts to lose sales and developers completely ditch them, people will leave them alone just like they did with Sony and MS. Of course, Wii is not going anywhere and the developers will never completely ditch them so that means you are going to have to deal with us haters till at least next generation. :P

This theory has been around since launch. The "Wii is just a fad" theory and that it will eventually become a money hole. As far as the facts are concerned, Nintendo is still too busy counting money to care.FishSquared

I'm not giving you a lecture, I'm giving you a heads up. From the tone of your post, you sounded pretty upset and I just thought you needed to chillax a bit. If my post sounded abrasive, then I'm sorry but I just don't appreciate when people try to derail the topic by talking about other companies that bear no relevance to this thread.

BladesOfAthena

What I meant by listing their losses was that Sony and MS have paid for their mistakes, so I guess people think it's punishment enough. Now when we (or at least me), when I look at Nintendo and see them laughing all the way to the bank, I want THEM to pay for it too. I'm sure once Wii starts to lose sales and developers completely ditch them, people will leave them alone just like they did with Sony and MS. Of course, Wii is not going anywhere and the developers will never completely ditch them so that means you are going to have to deal with us haters till at least next generation. :P

S0lidSnake

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

[QUOTE="Skylock00"] As should Microsoft and Sony for all the crap they've pulled. All three of the hardware manufacturers have done some highly questionable and ridiculous tactics this generation. I just find it funny how people seem to continue to make threads to try and knock on Nintendo, or, in this case, make threads where we suddenly seem to care about the same analysts that we normally shun because how off base they are usually about things.

That's just the way I see it, at least.MAILER_DAEMON

Hey, I'm just telling it like it is, no need to be ultra defensive. I see lots of opinions that rub me off the wrong way too, but you don't see me getting up all in arms about it. Regardless of where you go on the internet, there will always be something that may offend, so the only way is to just simply deal with it. And yes, all 3 companies have pulled crap in one way or another, but this is Nintendo we're talking about.

In Blades defense, I also got the impression Skylock was slightly upset as well. Not that I mind of course. If it wasn't for Skylock, these anti-Nintendo threads wouldn't be half as much fun. :P

In Blades defense, I also got the impression Skylock was slightly upset as well. Not that I mind of course. If it wasn't for Skylock, these anti-Nintendo threads wouldn't be half as much fun. :P

S0lidSnake

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"][QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]and Sony was the laughing stock of the industry until recently, so yes, we gave them all a hard time.m0zart

Heh well I don't remember Sony fans taking it very well in particular, but what that has to do with the price of tea in China, I have no idea. That's basically boiling down the concerns over arguments like these to fanboy arguments intead of the points that are being made.

NOA has really peeved me off lately. No denying that. I think they should be called out for some of the nonsense decisions they've been making. But that's not the same as saying that the Wii isn't a viable platform, or that it's "bad for the industry" as you implied in your recent post.

I think this thread is proof that judging from the tonality of the comments being made, some of the fans are seeing this as though it was meant to provoke, even though this wasn't my intention. The way I think it should be handled is to just simply discuss the issue point blank, instead of saying stuff like, "this should go to System Wars," or whining about the lack of fairness.

I don't care that much about calling out companies when they do stupid things...but whether or not a company is actually selling well as a result of the choice is one that I don't really take as much into account usually when I call something out.Skylock00

You don't, but others do and I completely understand why the would. If sales are anything to go by then Nintendo is the leader this gen, no? People look up to leaders for innovation, for quality and other things that might inspire them, in order to replicate that success. With Nintendo, it's obviously not happening. Gamers were never really that thrilled with Nintendo from the first time Revolution was revealed. (I'm sure you remember the reaction to the "Remote Control".) Then you started hearing developers **** and moan about how they can't port over their PS3/360/PC titles. And now you have industry analysts catching on to it. People obviously have problems with and it's not just the gamers. It seems the only ones happy are Nintendo's stock holders.

When you have this many people upset, especially at the market leader (Windows anyone?) then you will see people talk about it. Of couse, they will use sales data or whatever they can to support their viewpoint, but isn't that what everyone does? I know it's tiring to hear and read the samething over and over again, but that's forums for you.

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

I'm not giving you a lecture, I'm giving you a heads up. From the tone of your post, you sounded pretty upset and I just thought you needed to chillax a bit. If my post sounded abrasive, then I'm sorry but I just don't appreciate when people try to derail the topic by talking about other companies that bear no relevance to this thread.

Skylock00

It may be a reiteration to you but hey, that same argument can be made about myriads of other topics too (too many shooters, graphics over gameplay, Wii is beating PS3/X360, blah blah blah). I see these being used as talking points over and over and it makes me sick to my stomach, to the point where it becomes meaningless.

And why should my motives be of any concern to you? All I wanted was merely to create a discussion that I felt was worth discussing, nothing more, nothing less. If people want to see that as having some sort of bias, that's fine with me. I mean, who doesn't?

[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]Yeah, I remember that very well. If Sony fans can take it, then Nintendo fans should very well do the same as well. :PBladesOfAthena

Heh well I don't remember Sony fans taking it very well in particular, but what that has to do with the price of tea in China, I have no idea. That's basically boiling down the concerns over arguments like these to fanboy arguments intead of the points that are being made.

NOA has really peeved me off lately. No denying that. I think they should be called out for some of the nonsense decisions they've been making. But that's not the same as saying that the Wii isn't a viable platform, or that it's "bad for the industry" as you implied in your recent post.

I think this thread is proof that judging from the tonality of the comments being made, some of the fans are seeing this as though it was meant to provoke, even though this wasn't my intention. The way I think it should be handled is to just simply discuss the issue point blank, instead of saying stuff like, "this should go to System Wars," or whining about the lack of fairness.

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

I'm not giving you a lecture, I'm giving you a heads up. From the tone of your post, you sounded pretty upset and I just thought you needed to chillax a bit. If my post sounded abrasive, then I'm sorry but I just don't appreciate when people try to derail the topic by talking about other companies that bear no relevance to this thread.

Skylock00

Well then, let's hear it!

Unless you already mentioned it somewhere else.... I don't usually troll Nintendo threads, just made an exception today. :P

You don't, but others do and I completely understand why the would.

S0lidSnake

[QUOTE="Skylock00"][QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

I'm not giving you a lecture, I'm giving you a heads up. From the tone of your post, you sounded pretty upset and I just thought you needed to chillax a bit. If my post sounded abrasive, then I'm sorry but I just don't appreciate when people try to derail the topic by talking about other companies that bear no relevance to this thread.

BladesOfAthena

It may be a reiteration to you but hey, that same argument can be made about myriads of other topics too (too many shooters, graphics over gameplay, Wii is beating PS3/X360, blah blah blah). I see these being used as talking points over and over and it makes me sick to my stomach, to the point where it becomes meaningless.

And why should my motives be of any concern to you? All I wanted was merely to create a discussion that I felt was worth discussing, nothing more, nothing less. If people want to see that as having some sort of bias, that's fine with me. I mean, who doesn't?

I see nothing wrong with this thread, but still think you should've posted some of your own text in the OP. Instead of, you know, just "Discuss". :P

You did reply to one of the first couple of comments and clarified your stance on the matter so I didn't mind it that much.

oh and on a related note [spoiler] What's you favorite game of all-time??!?!??!? :P [/spoiler]

And again, it's not so much tiring because it's the same thing over and over...it's tiring because it's not only a rehashed argument, it's rehashed with essentially nothing new being added either for insight, thought provocation, or what not. It's a completely hollow point to make, IMHO, because it has already been made, repeatedly.

Skylock00

If anything, I think the 'Wii is slaughtering the PS3/X360 in sales' memo is far more redundant than this issue. Yes we know, WE GET IT. So what?

I see nothing wrong with this thread, but still think you should've posted some of your own text in the OP. Instead of, you know, just "Discuss".S0lidSnake

LOL! Well actually I was in a hurry to do an errand and that I wanted to post this in the boards before I forget. But like you said, I did add some of my own input afterwards so its no biggie. :P

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

You don't, but others do and I completely understand why the would.

Skylock00

That's why I thought Witty's post in the thread stood above other comments. His post wasn't just another anti-Nintendo tirade. He clearly pointed out that the third party developers are also at fault. We have seen Nintendo make numerous innovative and creative titles on the Wii, but the third party devs have had nothing remotely close to Nintendo's quality titles till recently. (Again, I haven't played most of the Wii games, but Mad World and House of the Dead Overkill seem to be pretty decent games. ) Witty's post didn't come off as a rehash or hollow comment to me, and I definitely enjoyed coming up with a response to it. So you can also say it was thought provoking. :P

All I'm saying is that people can find something new or thought provoking from these threads. Maybe not you since you've seen it all over the years, but there are people still genuinely interested in this topic and not just because they want to devalue whatever Nintendo does. The strong 40 posts response to this thread is evidence enough. Sure there are fanboys who can't stand the success of their rival companies, but I doubt all 20 some posters in this thread are those fanboys.

[QUOTE="Skylock00"]

And again, it's not so much tiring because it's the same thing over and over...it's tiring because it's not only a rehashed argument, it's rehashed with essentially nothing new being added either for insight, thought provocation, or what not. It's a completely hollow point to make, IMHO, because it has already been made, repeatedly.

BladesOfAthena

If anything, I think the 'Wii is slaughtering the PS3/X360 in sales' memo is far more redundant than this issue. Yes we know, WE GET IT. So what?

Hey! :evil: Those Wii sales hate comments are what get me through NPD day. Most depressing day of the month for me!

Though curiously enough, the day before NPD day is my favorite. Everything seems possible. I start thinking PS3 just might post 600K units this month or that Uncharted and LBP might sneak back up on the top ten list. Of course, NPD day comes and I realize it was just another wet dream. :(

Well then, let's hear it!

S0lidSnake

If anything, I think the 'Wii is slaughtering the PS3/X360 in sales' memo is far more redundant than this issue. Yes we know, WE GET IT. So what?

BladesOfAthena

[QUOTE="BladesOfAthena"]

If anything, I think the 'Wii is slaughtering the PS3/X360 in sales' memo is far more redundant than this issue. Yes we know, WE GET IT. So what?

Skylock00

Why yes Skylock, because it hurts my feelings just as it hurts your feelings whenever people take potshots against Ninty. :P

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

Well then, let's hear it!

Skylock00

Hmm... Good points. I really didn't know NoA had this little impact on developing Nintendo games.

Not having a decent set of middleware could very well be a big issue preventing developers from coming up with Nintendo quality games. I remember even back in E3 2006, Sony showed off Epic's Unreal Engine 3 for every third party to use. (Or was it E3 2005?) Sure, I would rather play games that are built from scratch on the Cell PRocessor, but a lot of multiplatform titles came out looking decent because of UE3. I remember devs up in arms about how tough and different the PS3's architecture was. Now imagine if UE3 wasn't available to them. I'm sure we would still be getting PS3 multiplatform tites that look like Wii games. :P

So yeah, I'm definitely glad you talked about lack of middleware toolsets provided by Nintendo. However, it reaffirms my belief that Nintendo just hasn't done enough this gen when it comes to supporting these developers. However, I would give NoA all the credit for handling the marketing for Wii making it the biggest, most sought after product since the VCR. It was truly a brilliant business move.

So yeah, I'm definitely glad you talked about lack of middleware toolsets provided by Nintendo. However, it reaffirms my belief that Nintendo just hasn't done enough this gen when it comes to supporting these developers. However, I would give NoA all the credit for handling the marketing for Wii making it the biggest, most sought after product since the VCR. It was truly a brilliant business move.

S0lidSnake