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UpInFlames

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#1 UpInFlames
Member since 2004 • 13301 Posts

Check out the entire article here. Some excerpts:

"Thus begins Dragon Age, one of the most enormous and astonishing of games," it says. "Were the difficulty levels not so enormously silly, it would require sheer pickiness to find a major fault with this game."

PC Gamer calls Origins' gigantic environment "the most enormously detailed game world I've experienced, its history stretching back thousands of years, its cultures vivid, beautiful and flawed, the battles enormous, the humour superb.

"I've not only been to huge cities, but I've learned their past, their present, and been involved in shaping their future," it says. "This hasn't felt like passing through a series of checkpoints, but having experienced a world.

"Roleplaying games now have a great deal to live up to," it concludes.

PC Gamer (UK Edition) is one of the very few gaming publications that still have some credibility as far as I'm concerned and this definitely sounds great, surprising even. We'll know for sure in a little while.

Your thoughts?


EDIT: BioWare details social network. Check entire article here.

All three versions of Dragon Age: Origins - PC, PS3 and Xbox 360 - will connect to the BioWare Social Network. Individual heroes will be shared with the world on an avatar screen so others can see how you look, what items you have and what attributes you boast. Statistics like "Greatest damage dealt" and "Most powerful foe slain" will also be tracked.

Ideas for the future include detailed story-tracking, showing which of the myriad paths you chose to walk down. Event tracking isn't implemented yet, but will, like an in-game journal, note your quest progress.

PC owners of Dragon Age: Origins will also be able to post screenshots and share them with friends. Otherwise, all three versions will work with the Social Network in an identical way.

This BioWare Social Network, coupled with two years of planned DLC and a detailed Flash spin-off of Dragon Age, show the considerable effort behind the dark fantasy RPG. From BioWare's perspective, it's another incentive for people to buy a legitimate copy rather than pirating it.

"We wanted to make this very clear this is not a DRM solution. The win was taking a playbook from Valve by adding additional value for players," concluded Melo. "Our benefit is more indirect in terms of feeding the community and getting them engaged with Dragon Age as a franchise."

EDIT #2: GameSpot review.

Few games are this ambitious, and even fewer can mold these ambitions into such a complete and entertaining experience. You might spend 50 or more hours on your first play-though, but there are so many paths to follow, so many details to uncover, and so many ways to customize your party that you'll want to play again as soon as you finish the first time. PC owners even get an extra dash of depth via the downloadable toolset, which lets you create new levels, spells, skills, and even cutscenes. But any way you slice it, here's the fantasy RPG you've been waiting for, the one that will keep you up late at night, bleary-eyed, because you have to see what happens next. Like the best fiction, Dragon Age will sweep you up in its world, so much so that when you're done, you'll want to experience it all over again.

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SteelAttack

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#2 SteelAttack
Member since 2005 • 10520 Posts
Damn you PC gamers! I want that and not the watered down console port. The way the game is described sounds like the perfect RPG experience. Entering a gameworld with a detailed history of its own, that feels as if it has lived, and keeps on living even if you're not playing the game.
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rragnaar

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#3 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts
Damn you PC gamers! I want that and not the watered down console port. The way the game is described sounds like the perfect RPG experience. Entering a gameworld with a detailed history of its own, that feels as if it has lived, and keeps on living even if you're not playing the game. SteelAttack
I'm in the same boat. My best friend is getting it next week, so I'll get to see how well the console version turned out. BioWare has been good at it in the past with KOTOR and Mass Effect, but this seems like such a different game. I've got my doubts on how well it will work out.
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kfjl

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#4 kfjl
Member since 2004 • 2469 Posts
Damn you PC gamers! I want that and not the watered down console port. The way the game is described sounds like the perfect RPG experience. Entering a gameworld with a detailed history of its own, that feels as if it has lived, and keeps on living even if you're not playing the game. SteelAttack
I haven't followed this game too closely; what are the differences between the console version and the PC version that would make it watered down?
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mirgamer

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#5 mirgamer
Member since 2003 • 2489 Posts
It really sounds like its a true Baldur's Gate successor....and I"M SO DAMN HYPED FOR THAT!
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CarnageHeart

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#6 CarnageHeart
Member since 2002 • 18316 Posts

Most reviewers seem to give Bioware a pass, looking past crappy gameplay and sloppy game design in Mass Effect and Jade Empire. Sadly, PC Gamer is among them (they gave the laughably bad Jade Empire an 86).

I'm not saying Dragon Age is a bad game (it certainly has the elements it needs to be a great game) but reviewers have demonstrated time and time again an inability to objectively evaluate Bioware games.

Since it has FF12's gambit system, I'm optimistic that Dragon Age is going to be great, so I'm going to try to rent it from my local Blockbuster in the next few months (since Bioware no longer believes in demos).

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F1Lengend

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#7 F1Lengend
Member since 2005 • 7909 Posts
It might be good but thats some terrible voice acting going on there. And considering there is so much of it, it becomes painful to listen through after the first dozen hours.
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dakan45

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#8 dakan45
Member since 2009 • 18819 Posts
So its gonna be another mass effect or a hardcore DnD neverwinter nights?
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3aNkabot

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#9 3aNkabot
Member since 2008 • 620 Posts
[QUOTE="SteelAttack"]Damn you PC gamers! I want that and not the watered down console port. The way the game is described sounds like the perfect RPG experience. Entering a gameworld with a detailed history of its own, that feels as if it has lived, and keeps on living even if you're not playing the game. kfjl
I haven't followed this game too closely; what are the differences between the console version and the PC version that would make it watered down?

Well they get a modding tool where they can create stages / quests / cinematics / effects, I've seen a video of it. I can't remember where though.
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190586385885857957282413308806

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#10 190586385885857957282413308806
Member since 2002 • 13084 Posts
[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Most reviewers seem to give Bioware a pass, looking past crappy gameplay and sloppy game design in Mass Effect and Jade Empire. Sadly, PC Gamer is among them (they gave the laughably bad Jade Empire an 86).

I'm not saying Dragon Age is a bad game (it certainly has the elements it needs to be a great game) but reviewers have demonstrated time and time again an inability to objectively evaluate Bioware games.

Since it has FF12's gambit system, I'm optimistic that Dragon Age is going to be great, so I'm going to try to rent it from my local Blockbuster in the next few months (since Bioware no longer believes in demos).

Don't know if you noticed this but reviewers look over the bad part of any game if its a blockbuster title. BioWare isn't the only dev to benefit from this and they won't be the last. Anyways the 360 and PC CE versions of this game have been sold out at Gamestop months ago so it forced me to get the PC CE version from Amazon.com Already created my character thanks to the downloadable character creator and I'm looking forward to a game that is supposed to exercise my quad core
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UpInFlames

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#11 UpInFlames
Member since 2004 • 13301 Posts

BioWare details social network. Check entire article here.

All three versions of Dragon Age: Origins - PC, PS3 and Xbox 360 - will connect to the BioWare Social Network. Individual heroes will be shared with the world on an avatar screen so others can see how you look, what items you have and what attributes you boast. Statistics like "Greatest damage dealt" and "Most powerful foe slain" will also be tracked.

Ideas for the future include detailed story-tracking, showing which of the myriad paths you chose to walk down. Event tracking isn't implemented yet, but will, like an in-game journal, note your quest progress.

PC owners of Dragon Age: Origins will also be able to post screenshots and share them with friends. Otherwise, all three versions will work with the Social Network in an identical way.

This BioWare Social Network, coupled with two years of planned DLC and a detailed Flash spin-off of Dragon Age, show the considerable effort behind the dark fantasy RPG. From BioWare's perspective, it's another incentive for people to buy a legitimate copy rather than pirating it.

"We wanted to make this very clear this is not a DRM solution. The win was taking a playbook from Valve by adding additional value for players," concluded Melo. "Our benefit is more indirect in terms of feeding the community and getting them engaged with Dragon Age as a franchise."

Pretty cool stuff.

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Archangel3371

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#12 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46852 Posts

Sweet. I've always been a huge Bioware fan and find their games to be fantastic experiences and from what I've seen and heard about this game looks to be no different. I've watched the various class trailers on XBLM and the writing and voice-acting sound terrific. I'll definitely be picking this game up. Having something like the Blood Dragon armour carry over from this game to Mass Effect 2 is a very cool plus and the Bioware Social Network aspect sounds pretty cool as well. Less then a week away for this game now, can't wait. :D

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AGMing

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#13 AGMing
Member since 2003 • 1694 Posts
[QUOTE="SteelAttack"]Damn you PC gamers! I want that and not the watered down console port. The way the game is described sounds like the perfect RPG experience. Entering a gameworld with a detailed history of its own, that feels as if it has lived, and keeps on living even if you're not playing the game. rragnaar
I'm in the same boat. My best friend is getting it next week, so I'll get to see how well the console version turned out. BioWare has been good at it in the past with KOTOR and Mass Effect, but this seems like such a different game. I've got my doubts on how well it will work out.

ever since it was announced for consoles i had my doubts about the port, i would compare dragon age to the NWN games rather than KOTOR and having sunk 100's of hours into NWN 1 & 2 i just dont see how dragon age will work on consoles. the number of shortcut keys and toolbars that i used to have filled up wouldn't work on a console. iv no doubt Bioware have it optimized each version pretty well but i think the game will be a bit more simplified for the consoles and that wont cut it for me, im due an upgrade or 2 on my PC so thats what ima be picking it up on.
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GodModeEnabled

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#14 GodModeEnabled
Member since 2005 • 15314 Posts
Why is everyone saying less than a week for this game? I thought it came out on the 17th of November or something? Anyways already got my collecters edition fully paid for and preordered, had to opt for the 360 version as my crappy laptop (craptop!) cant handle newer games. This is one of my most anticipated games for the whole year and I can't wait!
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Archangel3371

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#15 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46852 Posts

Why is everyone saying less than a week for this game? I thought it came out on the 17th of November or something? Anyways already got my collecters edition fully paid for and preordered, had to opt for the 360 version as my crappy laptop (craptop!) cant handle newer games. This is one of my most anticipated games for the whole year and I can't wait!GodModeEnabled

Nope, it's coming out Tuesday Nov. 3rd. :)

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GodModeEnabled

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#16 GodModeEnabled
Member since 2005 • 15314 Posts

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"]Why is everyone saying less than a week for this game? I thought it came out on the 17th of November or something? Anyways already got my collecters edition fully paid for and preordered, had to opt for the 360 version as my crappy laptop (craptop!) cant handle newer games. This is one of my most anticipated games for the whole year and I can't wait!Archangel3371

Nope, it's coming out Tuesday Nov. 3rd. :)

Great googley moogley thats THIS Tuesday coming! Im so glad mine is paid for already! I guess me and you are the only ones rocking the 360 version big guy, see you online!
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LoG-Sacrament

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#17 LoG-Sacrament
Member since 2006 • 20397 Posts
sounds good. i actually started my first bioware game today (kotor) and im liking it a lot. i should fix my ps3 soon so i can play dragon age once its out.
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Archangel3371

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#18 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46852 Posts

[QUOTE="Archangel3371"]

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"]Why is everyone saying less than a week for this game? I thought it came out on the 17th of November or something? Anyways already got my collecters edition fully paid for and preordered, had to opt for the 360 version as my crappy laptop (craptop!) cant handle newer games. This is one of my most anticipated games for the whole year and I can't wait!GodModeEnabled

Nope, it's coming out Tuesday Nov. 3rd. :)

Great googley moogley thats THIS Tuesday coming! Im so glad mine is paid for already! I guess me and you are the only ones rocking the 360 version big guy, see you online!

Oh most definitely. I didn't pre-order mine but I'll be grabbing it on Tuesday nonetheless. There's no way I'm passing up on this game.

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UpInFlames

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#19 UpInFlames
Member since 2004 • 13301 Posts

GameSpot's review is in.

Few games are this ambitious, and even fewer can mold these ambitions into such a complete and entertaining experience. You might spend 50 or more hours on your first play-though, but there are so many paths to follow, so many details to uncover, and so many ways to customize your party that you'll want to play again as soon as you finish the first time. PC owners even get an extra dash of depth via the downloadable toolset, which lets you create new levels, spells, skills, and even cutscenes. But any way you slice it, here's the fantasy RPG you've been waiting for, the one that will keep you up late at night, bleary-eyed, because you have to see what happens next. Like the best fiction, Dragon Age will sweep you up in its world, so much so that when you're done, you'll want to experience it all over again.

Surprised? I know I am. I honestly didn't expect such gushing praise at all. It would also seem that the extra polish time reflected favourably on the PC version as the console versions (360 in particular) are noticeably marked down due to graphical issues, bugs, glitches, and lack of control/interface options. However, it would seem that BioWare was largely successful in bringing a wholly PC-styIed RPG to consoles - a feat rarely anyone even attempted, nevermind succeeded.

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Archangel3371

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#20 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46852 Posts

Yeah very good reviews for the game indeed. I can't wait to grab my copy later today.

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190586385885857957282413308806

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#21 190586385885857957282413308806
Member since 2002 • 13084 Posts
I find it funny that a lot of websites that aren't reviewing the game in the 9's are citing reasons such as the difficulty and the fact that this game reminds them of Baldur's Gate 2 so much. those things seem like blessings to me.
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rragnaar

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#22 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts

I wasn't really expecting the console versions to turn out good, so I'd written this off as a game I'd have to wait a while to play. I think I'll pick this up fairly soon. Hopefully the consoles versions get a patch.

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juradai

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#23 juradai
Member since 2003 • 2783 Posts

I'm getting the collector's edition today for the 360! I'm really looking forward to this game. A lot.

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kimkim01

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#24 kimkim01
Member since 2009 • 704 Posts

I find it funny that a lot of websites that aren't reviewing the game in the 9's are citing reasons such as the difficulty and the fact that this game reminds them of Baldur's Gate 2 so much. those things seem like blessings to me.smerlus

Amen! I miss difficult games. XD

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F1Lengend

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#25 F1Lengend
Member since 2005 • 7909 Posts

I wasn't really expecting the console versions to turn out good, so I'd written this off as a game I'd have to wait a while to play. I think I'll pick this up fairly soon. Hopefully the consoles versions get a patch.

rragnaar
I would love to play the PC version but I'll probably grab the PS3 version if I decide to buy it. The combat honestly looks pretty boring to me but as long as they handle the leveling system properly, among other design choices, I will probably grab it. The reason I can never stick with Bethesda games is because I find they make bad design choices which eventually catch up to you, so not having much experience with Bioware games makes me a little nervous about the same possible shortcomings. Anyway, this holiday season is kicking ass, people were pretty skeptical but its turning out amazing. Theres still at least 3 more games that can be 9+ that im looking forward to.
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F1Lengend

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#27 F1Lengend
Member since 2005 • 7909 Posts

I just got Borderlands in the mail, it only took a week to deliver!

Now...I don't even know if I want to open it. I have the urge to go back to the store and exchange it for Dragon Age. Rag, should I keep Borderlands? I was planning on COOPing with you, I dont really know who else has this game so we would have to be best friends for a while to get my moneys worth :P

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rragnaar

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#28 rragnaar
Member since 2005 • 27023 Posts

I just got Borderlands in the mail, it only took a week to deliver!

Now...I don't even know if I want to open it. I have the urge to go back to the store and exchange it for Dragon Age. Rag, should I keep Borderlands? I was planning on COOPing with you, I dont really know who else has this game so we would have to be best friends for a while to get my moneys worth :P

F1Lengend
I don't want to totally derail the thread, but personally, I'm losing a little bit of steam in Borderlands, I don't know if it is a game I'll keep. I bought it to co-op with my best friend, but I don't know that we ever actually will, and I'm starting to sorta want Dragon Age a little more than I want Borderlands. Who knows what I'll do.:P
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F1Lengend

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#29 F1Lengend
Member since 2005 • 7909 Posts
[QUOTE="F1Lengend"]

I just got Borderlands in the mail, it only took a week to deliver!

Now...I don't even know if I want to open it. I have the urge to go back to the store and exchange it for Dragon Age. Rag, should I keep Borderlands? I was planning on COOPing with you, I dont really know who else has this game so we would have to be best friends for a while to get my moneys worth :P

rragnaar
I don't want to totally derail the thread, but personally, I'm losing a little bit of steam in Borderlands, I don't know if it is a game I'll keep. I bought it to co-op with my best friend, but I don't know that we ever actually will, and I'm starting to sorta want Dragon Age a little more than I want Borderlands. Who knows what I'll do.:P

So basically you're a bastard. Lol, im really torn on this. Its probably because DA just came out and got great scores, the hype is hard to fight. They are pretty different games though, DA doesn't really seem like a loot game at all so maybe there is room for both. I'll wait it out before I make a rash decision. Would you be interested in coop though? If not, I guess that makes the decision easier.
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Humorguy_basic

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#30 Humorguy_basic
Member since 2002 • 2342 Posts

As a side note, you have to know 'old skool' rpg's, like Dragon Age, are in danger, when Gamespot, in it's 'games you might like' sidebar listed Risen, a hardcore RPG, Mass Effect 2 and Action-RPG probably more action than RPG, Diablo III, a hack'n'slash, Borderlands, a shooter to all intents and purposes and Neverwinter Nights 2, another 'old skool' RPG!

Can you imagine as a 'games you might like' sidebar for a shooter incluing a hardcore RPG and Action-RPG? Can you imagine any other genre where you now get such a wide range of titles listed when you have an RPG review?!

I think it says a lot about the state of old fashioned hardcore RPG's! After all, when I sayb 'RPG' do you think Ultima VII or Jade Empire? Deus Ex or Borderlands? Are they really all RPG's?

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dakan45

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#31 dakan45
Member since 2009 • 18819 Posts
I find the pc rating kinda cheesy, especially the fact that the reviewer usually rates games lower than most other reviewers in plenty of sites and now its the other way around. Over all i will ignore the the review and wait for user opinions.
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nitsud_19

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#32 nitsud_19
Member since 2004 • 2519 Posts

My god GS rating system is a mess,9.5, 9.0 and an 8.5. I understand PC to console, but PS3 to 360 is that large a difference, all it says for the differences is that it looks slighty better. Eh whatever just weird to see something like that with such a poor reason to give different scores. So is this one of those games that would scare a console gamer like me or if I have played and enjoyed Bioware games before I should be ok. dvader654

I agree that the ratings are a mess but if it was the other way around you know the 360 only gamers would be up in arms boasting that the 360 is champ once again.

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ASK_Story

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#33 ASK_Story
Member since 2006 • 11455 Posts
I never liked BioWare games that much. I always thought they were overrated, like Carnage mentioned and how reviews blindly favor BioWare games even though there are so many technical flops. But I do admit I'm interested in Dragon Age. It looks like something I'd enjoy since I'm more into dark fantasy like this than Mass Effect kind of stuff.
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muller39

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#34 muller39
Member since 2008 • 14953 Posts
My god GS rating system is a mess,9.5, 9.0 and an 8.5. I understand PC to console, but PS3 to 360 is that large a difference, all it says for the differences is that it looks slighty better. Eh whatever just weird to see something like that with such a poor reason to give different scores. So is this one of those games that would scare a console gamer like me or if I have played and enjoyed Bioware games before I should be ok. dvader654
They did that half point deduction the same way in fallout 3 and borderlands.
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joel_c17

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#35 joel_c17
Member since 2005 • 3206 Posts
once i finish uni exams (for ever this time!) on the 14th - i will be all over this game like white on rice :D :D i gotta finish the witcher first tho
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Treflis

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#36 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts
I have to wait until November 5th to get my preorder copy since that's the european release date. And I got a week vacation next week so it's happy times.
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Skylock00

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#37 Skylock00
Member since 2002 • 20069 Posts
I picked up my copy for PS3...won't be able to play it until this weekend, but it'll be a nice distraction from Demon's Souls.
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deactivated-5c8e4e07d5510

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#38 deactivated-5c8e4e07d5510
Member since 2007 • 17401 Posts

I got the game this morning, installed it, and didn't move from my chair for about 6 hours. I love this game! :D

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F1Lengend

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#39 F1Lengend
Member since 2005 • 7909 Posts
Anybody get this game from Canada yet? All the CAD websites say Nov 17 :shock:
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Archangel3371

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#40 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46852 Posts

Anybody get this game from Canada yet? All the CAD websites say Nov 17 :shock:F1Lengend

Yep. I picked mine up at Walmart a little while age. EB and Future Shop also have it.

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#41 CarnageHeart
Member since 2002 • 18316 Posts

Shame Bioware no longer believes in demos but the reviews (especially the video reviews) are persuasive and DA looks like it would appeal to the rpg lovingmicromanager in me (also, ripping off George R.R. Martin's brilliant novels isn't a bad thing).

Unless user impressions indicate horrible flaws the professionals looked past, I'll pick up DA in the next couple months.

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EvilTaru

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#42 EvilTaru
Member since 2002 • 58395 Posts

Most reviewers seem to give Bioware a pass, looking past crappy gameplay and sloppy game design in Mass Effect and Jade Empire. Sadly, PC Gamer is among them (they gave the laughably bad Jade Empire an 86).

I'm not saying Dragon Age is a bad game (it certainly has the elements it needs to be a great game) but reviewers have demonstrated time and time again an inability to objectively evaluate Bioware games.

Since it has FF12's gambit system, I'm optimistic that Dragon Age is going to be great, so I'm going to try to rent it from my local Blockbuster in the next few months (since Bioware no longer believes in demos).

CarnageHeart

I've seen a ton of trailers and gameplay videos but I'm just not seeing what's so good about this game. Somebody needs to explain to me why it's getting all these great reviews.

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F1Lengend

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#43 F1Lengend
Member since 2005 • 7909 Posts

[QUOTE="F1Lengend"]Anybody get this game from Canada yet? All the CAD websites say Nov 17 :shock:Archangel3371

Yep. I picked mine up at Walmart a little while age. EB and Future Shop also have it.

Tank! Ok, I might pick it up tomorrow, hopefully you guys post your impressions so I dont buy a bad game.
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Allicrombie

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#44 Allicrombie
Member since 2005 • 26223 Posts
My 360 CE arrived this morning and I played a bit of an elven mage. With the exception of the graphics not looking so great, I thought it was a lot of fun. The opening mage tower area was pretty big and there was lots of codex hunting (a la mass effect).
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muller39

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#45 muller39
Member since 2008 • 14953 Posts
Anybody get this game from Canada yet? All the CAD websites say Nov 17 :shock:F1Lengend
Ya I picked mine up at my local Eb games in hamilton ontario today. They had many copies of each counsle version.
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190586385885857957282413308806

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#46 190586385885857957282413308806
Member since 2002 • 13084 Posts
[QUOTE="EvilTaru"]

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

Most reviewers seem to give Bioware a pass, looking past crappy gameplay and sloppy game design in Mass Effect and Jade Empire. Sadly, PC Gamer is among them (they gave the laughably bad Jade Empire an 86).

I'm not saying Dragon Age is a bad game (it certainly has the elements it needs to be a great game) but reviewers have demonstrated time and time again an inability to objectively evaluate Bioware games.

Since it has FF12's gambit system, I'm optimistic that Dragon Age is going to be great, so I'm going to try to rent it from my local Blockbuster in the next few months (since Bioware no longer believes in demos).

I've seen a ton of trailers and gameplay videos but I'm just not seeing what's so good about this game. Somebody needs to explain to me why it's getting all these great reviews.

Pc gaming has a game that many people that are into WRPG's think is the greatest RPG ever created and that is Bioware's Baldur's Gate 2. A lot of sites say this is Bioware's return to this kind of story telling/ game play.
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Greyfeld

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#47 Greyfeld
Member since 2008 • 3007 Posts
Thinking about picking this up for the PC, but before I do, I want to make sure my specs can run it. I read the spec list on another website, but I'm not that good with this kinda stuff, so I'll just run down my specs here, and hopefully somebody can tell me how close I am to being able to run this game: Windows Vista 32-bit AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 5600+ 2.8GHz ATI Radeon HD 4670 512MB 3GB RAM
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Archangel3371

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#48 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 46852 Posts

Man am I ever enjoying this game. Typical Bioware storytelling brilliance and the voice-acting is very well done. Graphics won't knock your socks off but they get the job done adequately and the framerate has been quite smooth so far. Combat is good and the controls are nicely implemented. Very solid game so far and I'll likely end up putting hundreds of hours into after all is said and done.

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Prodigy_basic

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#50 Prodigy_basic
Member since 2002 • 3808 Posts

i'm on the fence with dragon age as well...i'm still planning on playing demon's souls and fallout 3 goty before this, so do i really need to buy it right now and pay full price for it? i'm not sure about that...the reviews have been great so far though so maybe i can even score this for christmas...