No opposition to video game piracy?

It seems no-one minds the problem of video game piracy. Except for the major video game companies who are probably fusterated by no appearent solution. If you look at Modern Warefare 2, they were the most pirated game of 2009. Activision lost four million sales loosing more than a hundred million dollars. You could imagine someone sitting at an Activision desk with a very red face. The evil empire of Electronic Arts lost over three million copies. All these companies are pretty much powerless over these lost sales.

Direct Rights managment is a rather awful solution. It punishes the people who legitimately purchase it and cause frustration. Once a few cracked versions of the game appear online, the companies should take away or limit the DRM. Direct Rights managment just doesnt seem fix the companies problems. Another solutions is a bit more aggresive. Many of those torrent sites operate under legal immunity. Pirate Bay cannot really be touched thanks to Swedish law. Whenever Sweden did interfere with Pirate Bay, Pirate Bay acted pretty submissively.

Pirate Bay fans & pro-piracy support groups though, began to protest. Except for the corperations & companies that have sent multiple legal threats to Pirate Bay, no one seems to care.... at all. Pirate Bay, to all these legal threats, just gives some nice & pretty entertaining replies. It just shows how unthreatened they feel.

So, how do you feel about all of this? Do you think it should be stopped?

For me, video game piracy will remain forever. Companies & people who pirate video games need to at least strike some kind of mutual understanding. If they leech off the companies to much, they could seriously hurt the industry. They could slow down the development of new games or cause companies to go insane with the DRM. The companies might possibly ask for more federal assistance like the US pressuring Sweden to take down Pirate Bay. Pirate Bay shouldnt go overboard. They are ,and probably already, monitoring game company & other media sales. If they are causing too much damage, they might themselves try to take action against their own users. They know they can't create too much noise.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/36988/MW2-most-pirated-game-of-09

video game piracy will remain forever. mazman3434

Most North American Pirated games usually state in their NFO's and Read Me's, to go and actually buy the game if you enjoy it.

I find there is a difference between N.A. Pirates and The Pirate Business overseas. Here they don't make money, rest of the world they do.

Actually only piracy happens on crappy PC games. Soon companys shalt learnest thust consolest gameth arst thouth bestest.King_Dweedle

Meh, I can't really bring myself to start sobbing over corporations not earning even more than they already do (which is itself questionable since there is no way of knowing how many people would actually buy the game if piracy didn't exist). Especially the likes of Activision.

From where I stand, the game industry has far bigger problems than piracy. Corporations are trying hard to keep the limelight on piracy to keep people from asking why is the true talent behind the work underappreciated and underpayed. Why is the distribution of profit 90-10 in favor of the publisher (and that's an optimistic estimate)? Why is the investment money controlled exclusively by the publishers who then use the situation to strongarm developers in need of funding? Why do standard publishing deals almost always involve the developer having to give up the rights on the IP? Is piracy being used as a convenient excuse to shoehorn DRM onto legitimate users in order to establish complete control? Why are we paying serious money for licenses, not actually the games?

That's the stuff I'm concerned about. Bobby Kotick perhaps not having enough for a second Dubai World island...big ****ing deal.

I am Morally opposed to Piracy... It's stealing, and Stealing is wrong. Didn't anyones mom ever teach them that?

Its the basis that stealing is morally wrong. Its universal.

One of the common excuses I see video game pirates say is how the corperations are abusing their developers like up in flames has listed. While these may be true, and I havent looked at those points, but how does pirated games from these big bad companies help developers? Its not like I hear the developers saying "help me!" on the gamespot QA's (unless they are required to stay silent under contract). If it is possible that these developers are being oppressed than perhaps their fans could support in a way rather than stealing their games.

They could all ask EA and other companiesto give the developers better working conditions. Though, I have never heard of that being done in history.

This raises another question that I would like to know, is there a video game developer's union? Since the video game industry is relatively new, most of these companies can resist unions (Like general motors in its first few decades).

Also, do you think Pirate Bay should be shutdown?

Mentioned before, this website allows many people each day to download games for free. The common point against shutting down Pirate Bay is that Pirate Bay itself doesnt crack open games and upload them themselves. They allow other users to do so. Does that protect them from liability?

Its the basis that stealing is morally wrong. Its universal.

One of the common excuses I see video game pirates say is how the corperations are abusing their developers like up in flames has listed. While these may be true, and I havent looked at those points, but how does pirated games from these big bad companies help developers? Its not like I hear the developers saying "help me!" on the gamespot QA's (unless they are required to stay silent under contract). If it is possible that these developers are being oppressed than perhaps their fans could support in a way rather than stealing their games.

They could all ask EA and other companiesto give the developers better working conditions. Though, I have never heard of that being done in history.

This raises another question that I would like to know, is there a video game developer's union? Since the video game industry is relatively new, most of these companies can resist unions (Like general motors in its first few decades).

Also, do you think Pirate Bay should be shutdown?

Mentioned before, this website allows many people each day to download games for free. The common point against shutting down Pirate Bay is that Pirate Bay itself doesnt crack open games and upload them themselves. They allow other users to do so. Does that protect them from liability?

mazman3434

Activision lost four million sales loosing more than a hundred million dollars

Proof?

Meh, I can't really bring myself to start sobbing over corporations not earning even more than they already do (which is itself questionable since there is no way of knowing how many people would actually buy the game if piracy didn't exist). Especially the likes of Activision.

From where I stand, the game industry has far bigger problems than piracy. Corporations are trying hard to keep the limelight on piracy to keep people from asking why is the true talent behind the work underappreciated and underpayed. Why is the distribution of profit 90-10 in favor of the publisher (and that's an optimistic estimate)? Why is the investment money controlled exclusively by the publishers who then use the situation to strongarm developers in need of funding? Why do standard publishing deals almost always involve the developer having to give up the rights on the IP? Is piracy being used as a convenient excuse to shoehorn DRM onto legitimate users in order to establish complete control? Why are we paying serious money for licenses, not actually the games?

That's the stuff I'm concerned about. Bobby Kotick perhaps not having enough for a second Dubai World island...big ****ing deal.

UpInFlames

**** that.

It's not as if the evil publishers walk up to developers in a dark anddirty alley, pull out a gun, and say "let my company publisher your company's game, or I'll murder you!"

No, developers make contracts with publishers because it's in their best interests. No one put a gun up to their heads, the ARTISTS make those kinds of deals in order to gain wider coverage. If any artist has a problem with a publisher taking most of the money, then there's no one stopping that artist freom publishing their art on their own.

Meanwhile, even if the person who made the "art" only gets 5% of the money from sales, that's still 5%. Whereas, they get ZERO PERCENT if the fans interested in the "art" choose to pirate it, based solely on the fact that they want to stick it to the big greedy publisher. Even if the "artist" was only making 1% of sales, they get screwed out of even THAT when people take the "art" for free.

Yes, piracy is wrong. And I can't imagine anyone who gives a **** about art to support it.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"]

Meh, I can't really bring myself to start sobbing over corporations not earning even more than they already do (which is itself questionable since there is no way of knowing how many people would actually buy the game if piracy didn't exist). Especially the likes of Activision.

From where I stand, the game industry has far bigger problems than piracy. Corporations are trying hard to keep the limelight on piracy to keep people from asking why is the true talent behind the work underappreciated and underpayed. Why is the distribution of profit 90-10 in favor of the publisher (and that's an optimistic estimate)? Why is the investment money controlled exclusively by the publishers who then use the situation to strongarm developers in need of funding? Why do standard publishing deals almost always involve the developer having to give up the rights on the IP? Is piracy being used as a convenient excuse to shoehorn DRM onto legitimate users in order to establish complete control? Why are we paying serious money for licenses, not actually the games?

That's the stuff I'm concerned about. Bobby Kotick perhaps not having enough for a second Dubai World island...big ****ing deal.

MrGeezer

**** that.

It's not as if the evil publishers walk up to developers in a dark anddirty alley, pull out a gun, and say "let my company publisher your company's game, or I'll murder you!"

No, developers make contracts with publishers because it's in their best interests. No one put a gun up to their heads, the ARTISTS make those kinds of deals in order to gain wider coverage. If any artist has a problem with a publisher taking most of the money, then there's no one stopping that artist freom publishing their art on their own.

Meanwhile, even if the person who made the "art" only gets 5% of the money from sales, that's still 5%. Whereas, they get ZERO PERCENT if the fans interested in the "art" choose to pirate it, based solely on the fact that they want to stick it to the big greedy publisher. Even if the "artist" was only making 1% of sales, they get screwed out of even THAT when people take the "art" for free.

Yes, piracy is wrong. And I can't imagine anyone who gives a **** about art to support it.

Meh, I can't really bring myself to start sobbing over corporations not earning even more than they already do (which is itself questionable since there is no way of knowing how many people would actually buy the game if piracy didn't exist). Especially the likes of Activision.

UpInFlames

Why is the distribution of profit 90-10 in favor of the publisher (and that's an optimistic estimate)?

UpInFlames

If you are going to go on about piracy, I suggest you read this: http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html that somebody on the forums here introduced just a few hours ago (it took me around 2-3hrs to read it, but it was well worth it).

[QUOTE="mazman3434"]

Its the basis that stealing is morally wrong. Its universal.

One of the common excuses I see video game pirates say is how the corperations are abusing their developers like up in flames has listed. While these may be true, and I havent looked at those points, but how does pirated games from these big bad companies help developers? Its not like I hear the developers saying "help me!" on the gamespot QA's (unless they are required to stay silent under contract). If it is possible that these developers are being oppressed than perhaps their fans could support in a way rather than stealing their games.

They could all ask EA and other companiesto give the developers better working conditions. Though, I have never heard of that being done in history.

This raises another question that I would like to know, is there a video game developer's union? Since the video game industry is relatively new, most of these companies can resist unions (Like general motors in its first few decades).

Also, do you think Pirate Bay should be shutdown?

Mentioned before, this website allows many people each day to download games for free. The common point against shutting down Pirate Bay is that Pirate Bay itself doesnt crack open games and upload them themselves. They allow other users to do so. Does that protect them from liability?

tester962

Today, if its digital you can download it and crack it. Its a shame because some developers actually work years to make these games and people don't even care.-ICON-

It's the entitlement generation. I was talking to a friend's kids the other day, and mentioned that I really liked AC/DC when the subject of rock came up. When I said I owned all of their CDs, the kids said, "You BUY your music?" like it was the most outlandish thing they'd ever heard. And I replied, "Yeah, I DO, because I'm not a ****ing thief or a spoiled brat who thinks the world owes them a goddamn thing."

I've seen the same attitude relating to game piracy, and it's sickening. It's a generational thing I honestly believe. I think kids are just ****ed in the head these days.

The only pirate i like is Guybrush Threepwood. Software pirates and piracy in general, i don´t like so much. It effects us all in a negative way.

It's the entitlement generation. I was talking to a friend's kids the other day, and mentioned that I really liked AC/DC when the subject of rock came up. When I said I owned all of their CDs, the kids said, "You BUY your music?" like it was the most outlandish thing they'd ever heard. And I replied, "Yeah, I DO, because I'm not a ****ing thief or a spoiled brat who thinks the world owes them a goddamn thing."

I've seen the same attitude relating to game piracy, and it's sickening. It's a generational thing I honestly believe. I think kids are just ****ed in the head these days.

Shame-usBlackley

Amen to that one...funny that you mention that. Cus it´s not so long ago since i got the very same reaction after buying some DVD movies i liked (a bunch off zombie horror movies) from a local store. And one kid looked at me like i was Jesus Christ or something like that. He diden´t say anything, but im pretty sure he thinked the samething "Why the hell do you buy those movies dude...you can get them for free from the netz".

Im no god damn thief, i pay for my stuff. And yes, AC/DC rules man (yepp, i got ALL their cds in orginal).

Amen to that one...funny that you mention that. Cus it´s not so long ago since i got the very same reaction after buying some DVD movies i liked (a bunch off zombie horror movies) from a local store. And one kid looked at me like i was Jesus Christ or something like that. He diden´t say anything, but im pretty sure he thinked the samething "Why the hell do you buy those movies dude...you can get them for free from the netz".

Im no god damn thief, i pay for my stuff. And yes, AC/DC rules man (yepp, i got ALL their cds in orginal).

V-Act

Right on. Maybe there is hope after all.

It's not as if the evil publishers walk up to developers in a dark anddirty alley, pull out a gun, and say "let my company publisher your company's game, or I'll murder you!"

No, developers make contracts with publishers because it's in their best interests. No one put a gun up to their heads, the ARTISTS make those kinds of deals in order to gain wider coverage. If any artist has a problem with a publisher taking most of the money, then there's no one stopping that artist freom publishing their art on their own.MrGeezer

The point is that there's no alternative. If you want to see your game on the market, you have to turn to a publisher. Publishers don't need to threaten developers, developers come to the publisher all by themselves because that's the only solution. That's pretty much the only place to get the investment money. The model is just screwed up. It enables the select few big companies to control the entire industry and creativity.

Activision pays big bucks to get video games to market, just like any other publisher. Does their success somehow mean they should be okay with people downloading their games for free, after spending tens of millions of dollars to produce them?Teufelhuhn

I'm not saying they should be ok, I'm saying that I don't give a ****.

Publishers typically put up all of the money required to develop a game. Developers provide the talent, publishers provide the money. Developers that provide their own funding (like Valve) have the leverage to negotiate much more favorable terms.Teufelhuhn

Exactly, publishers provide the money, developers the talent. There is no one without the other. As I see it, that's a 50-50 deal. Naturally, that's me being idealistic, I fully realize we are ruled by capitalism, but 90-10 is just ridiculous. By the way, what about indie titles that are fully funded by the developer? From what I understand, Microsoft and Nintendo take the lion share of the profits even though the only thing they provide is the distribution.

The only reason why Valve owns Half-Life is because Gabe Newell made millions while working at Microsoft and he basically self-funded the entirety of the Half-Life development. That's not really a solution to anyone else (make millions, then become a game developer).

There's always a choice. Developers can publish their own. As long as they're using the services from others, services that are somewhat limited, they have to expect to pay through the nose.muthsera666

Besides Valve (who are loaded), I don't see any developer that is self-publishing their games (and even Valve needs EA's retail distribution channels). There is no choice because the money is coming from one source alone (the publisher). BioWare and Pandemic tried to change the model by being financed by a private invenstment group, but the game industry is apparantly destroying any and all means of outside funding. All you need to do is look at the state of the industry. There are barely any indie developers left. Self-financing is next to impossible. This model is heavily beneficial to big publishers because it ensures complete control over the entire industry and all of its resources (money and the creative talent).

I'm sorry but I prefer free things. It isnt a generational thing. I know people all the way up to the age of 55 who also like free things. Personally I am 27 and especially now-a-days with my income shrinking due to having trouble finding a good job I absolutely love free things. Thats the best way I am going to put it because otherwise I will be modded =)tester962

I suggest you try Steam. Extremely convenient, user-friendly, hassle-free and affordable. Great games deserve your money. I suggested it to a friend and he never went back.

[QUOTE="tester962"]I'm sorry but I prefer free things. It isnt a generational thing. I know people all the way up to the age of 55 who also like free things. Personally I am 27 and especially now-a-days with my income shrinking due to having trouble finding a good job I absolutely love free things. Thats the best way I am going to put it because otherwise I will be modded =)UpInFlames

I suggest you try Steam. Extremely convenient, user-friendly, hassle-free and affordable. Great games deserve your money. I suggested it to a friend and he never went back.

they need to send swat teams to arrest pirates

[QUOTE="muthsera666"]There's always a choice. Developers can publish their own. As long as they're using the services from others, services that are somewhat limited, they have to expect to pay through the nose.UpInFlames

Besides Valve (who are loaded), I don't see any developer that is self-publishing their games (and even Valve needs EA's retail distribution channels). There is no choice because the money is coming from one source alone (the publisher). BioWare and Pandemic tried to change the model by being financed by a private invenstment group, but the game industry is apparantly destroying any and all means of outside funding. All you need to do is look at the state of the industry. There are barely any indie developers left. Self-financing is next to impossible. This model is heavily beneficial to big publishers because it ensures complete control over the entire industry and all of its resources (money and the creative talent).

Boo hoo. If the developers have a problem with that, then they should find other sources of money to fund their games. Again, no one puts a gun to their heads and forces them to go to a big publisher who's going to fleece them.

Secondly, if developers do not have the money to fund their games, then that tells us that those games would not have been made at all if it wasn't for the big evil publisher. The publisher absolutely provides a critical role in making the games that we enjoy, and therefore they should be compensated.

And as I said before, it's a joke of an excuse to try to justify piracy by saying something like "I pirate because I want to stick it to the publisher who's taking money from the artists." Even if it is 90-10, with only 10% of the money going to the developer, what do you think happens when you take the game for free? Now the developer doesn't get ANY percent. Trying to excuse piracy on the claim that someone cares about the "real artists" is just silly. Because those people are screwing the artists by not paying for the game.

Boo hoo. If the developers have a problem with that, then they should find other sources of money to fund their games. Again, no one puts a gun to their heads and forces them to go to a big publisher who's going to fleece them.MrGeezer

You just don't get it, do you? Oh well. Attitudes like your's are hurting this industry more than piracy is and the irony is that you don't even realize it.

Secondly, if developers do not have the money to fund their games, then that tells us that those games would not have been made at all if it wasn't for the big evil publisher. The publisher absolutely provides a critical role in making the games that we enjoy, and therefore they should be compensated.MrGeezer

And vice versa. You're acting as if I'm saying that NONE of the profit should go to the publisher.

And as I said before, it's a joke of an excuse to try to justify piracy by saying something like "I pirate because I want to stick it to the publisher who's taking money from the artists." Even if it is 90-10, with only 10% of the money going to the developer, what do you think happens when you take the game for free? Now the developer doesn't get ANY percent. Trying to excuse piracy on the claim that someone cares about the "real artists" is just silly. Because those people are screwing the artists by not paying for the game.MrGeezer

So because I think the game industry has bigger problems than piracy that means I'm justifying piracy? That's some grade A logic right there. I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth.

I trust drug & healthcare companies more than I would trust a gaming publisher.dchase2k8

:lol:

Good one.

I'm not saying they should be ok, I'm saying that I don't give a ****.

UpInFlames

Fair enough, sir. :P

Exactly, publishers provide the money, developers the talent. There is no one without the other. As I see it, that's a 50-50 deal. Naturally, that's me being idealistic, I fully realize we are ruled by capitalism, but 90-10 is just ridiculous.

UpInFlames

By the way, what about indie titles that are fully funded by the developer? From what I understand, Microsoft and Nintendo take the lion share of the profits even though the only thing they provide is the distribution.

UpInFlames

UpInFlames...

Some people are naive enough to believe everything they see on advertisements. They think big company's have their back and are looking out for them. They think it's good that only one or two publishers control the entire industry. They think company's are giving them what they want when they tweak some rehashed code and release it for $60.00...and hold abunch of features/content they release later on as DLC.

The entire industry is a cluster F***. Innovation, art, soul, passion is virtually gone. I trust drug & healthcare companies more than I would trust a gaming publisher. It's about cut throat profits at all cost. And it's turned the industry to complete crap. And naive people (pre-teens, parents, and loyalists like MrGeezer are the ones responsible for supporting the trashy business model).

dchase2k8

Its hilarious to me that you are trying to use the publisher/developer split to justify piracy. I've read everyone from big publishers to small indies complain about piracy, so the claim that pirates are stealing to redress some sort of balance (as opposed to stealing because they can and because they lack morality) is patently false.

If you believe something isn't worth the asking price don't buy it but don't steal it either.

I don't believe I made a single comment about piracy.

I don't believe I made a single comment about piracy.

dchase2k8

:lol: Sure you didn't.

[QUOTE="dchase2k8"]I trust drug & healthcare companies more than I would trust a gaming publisher.UpInFlames

:lol:

Good one.

Well, that didn't take long. My message was deleted for "trolling".

Believe me I wish it were 50-50 (and so do the owners of my company), but unfortunately there's a lot more talent out there right now then there is money. Development money is a scarce enough resource that publishers can reject an awful lot of pitches, and when they do pick one up they can do it with lopsided terms with regards to profits.

This is one of reasons why I've always hoped that downloadable and Indie games could start to take off, so that developers have legitmate path to take other than the "publisher funds an owns everything" approach. I think if these kinds of games became successful enough, it would bring some equality to the situation. Unfortunately MS and Sony still require a publisher if you want to get your game on XBLA or PSN (although they do occassionally publish games themselves). I'm not sure if Nintendo requires having a publisher, but it's pretty common industry practice to not even give out develpment kits unless you have a publisher.Teufelhuhn

Yeah, this is why I believe that the current industry model is fundamentally broken. You can't really do crap without a publisher which is just depressing. I didn't even know about the dev kits and publisher involvement on Live Arcade and PSN. The level of control publishers have over this industry is scary. This is the kind of stuff people should be aware of instead of constantly regurgitating the worn-out piracy thing. This is the cancer that makes piracy seem like an annoying cough, in my opinion.

From what I understand typical royalty rates for the console makers are around 30% or so, which isn't so bad. But like I said above for XBLA and PSN a publisher is still usually involved, so who knows what happens there. If you want to put a game on XBLIG you don't need a publisher at all so the 70% is all yours, but it's pretty hard to make your game stand out on that service since there's so much crap.Teufelhuhn

Do you know anything about PC digital retailers such as Steam, Direct2Drive or Impulse? What's the deal there? I assume the situation is better, but I don't have any real information.

I have heard that Garry Newman (of Garry's Mod fame) defended Valve after Gearbox claimed that Steam was exploiting indie devs. He also said that he knows that Introversion would've gone under if it weren't for Steam. I also can't imagine that Stardock would strongarm indie devs.

[QUOTE="UpInFlames"]

[QUOTE="dchase2k8"]I trust drug & healthcare companies more than I would trust a gaming publisher.dchase2k8

:lol:

Good one.

Well, that didn't take long. My message was deleted for "trolling".

Yeah, this is why I believe that the current industry model is fundamentally broken. You can't really do crap without a publisher which is just depressing. I didn't even know about the dev kits and publisher involvement on Live Arcade and PSN. The level of control publishers have over this industry is scary. This is the kind of stuff people should be aware of instead of constantly regurgitating the worn-out piracy thing. This is the cancer that makes piracy seem like an annoying cough, in my opinion.

UpInFlames

Do you know anything about PC digital retailers such as Steam, Direct2Drive or Impulse? What's the deal there? I assume the situation is better, but I don't have any real information.

I have heard that Garry Newman (of Garry's Mod fame) defended Valve after Gearbox claimed that Steam was exploiting indie devs. He also said that he knows that Introversion would've gone under if it weren't for Steam. I also can't imagine that Stardock would strongarm indie devs.

UpInFlames

[QUOTE="Teufelhuhn"]From what I understand typical royalty rates for the console makers are around 30% or so, which isn't so bad. But like I said above for XBLA and PSN a publisher is still usually involved, so who knows what happens there. If you want to put a game on XBLIG you don't need a publisher at all so the 70% is all yours, but it's pretty hard to make your game stand out on that service since there's so much crap.UpInFlames

Do you know anything about PC digital retailers such as Steam, Direct2Drive or Impulse? What's the deal there? I assume the situation is better, but I don't have any real information.

I have heard that Garry Newman (of Garry's Mod fame) defended Valve after Gearbox claimed that Steam was exploiting indie devs. He also said that he knows that Introversion would've gone under if it weren't for Steam. I also can't imagine that Stardock would strongarm indie devs.

Read this.

Activision lost four million sales

mazman3434

Read this.

Timmeus

Thanks, but I don't think that applies to Steam. Steam includes the developer's website link and developers are the ones controlling the price - Valve has said that they asked all publishers and developers if they want to lower the price for the holiday sale and by how much. I also remember that the guy who created Braid changed the Steam price due to fan outcry (from $20 to $15, I believe).

[QUOTE="mazman3434"]

Activision lost four million sales

yodariquo

That's true. Some of the thieves wouldn't have bought MW2 even if they couldn't steal it.