Swearing in games is a modern evil

To the self-professed cleric: Perhaps I should have used the word "one" when I typed - In the end it shows your (ones) ignorance lacking communication levels to better express yourself rather than just saying oh "F### it". - unquote. It certainly is easier to swear rather than use reason or making cognisant rational argument. But for one condemning my perceived insult (which it wasn't) you sure throw a bunch back! I did not know you cared so much about keeping this new medium of vulgar communication that you would not even contemplate the allowance of a profanity filter, such as in online games like World of Warcraft. Oh, did you forget that WoW has the BIGGEST volume of users than any other video game today? Maybe WoW is not realistic enough for you; you must have your swearing "fix". As for my view, which I've stated many times that is all it is, it is not greater than anyone else's, especially a Grand Poobah such as yourself. The fact I believe there is a deliberate reason why the game makers refuse to allow that which is included in World of Warcraft, a profanity filter or 'bleeper', shows to me ill intent or evil. Swearing as I said in my first preface is easy to copy and carry from games than mutilation or violent imagery. To copy the latter acts one who have to commit a major crime, a threshold most normal folk choose not to cross. But they can resort to using more foul language because of the casual influence of games, something I REPEAT was barely around a couple of years ago. Something that is easier to imitate is more of a threat particularly when a vast majority deems the source offensive. And as much as you like to pontificate, words do harm - that is one of the basic ways which we communicate: you even managed to be offended by my use of the word ignorance in a global term, and ignorance is not the same as stupidity. The youth has always rebelled in one form or another, but in the 60 and 70s they formed the Hippie movement and opposed the Vietnam War. Today that lot are referred to demeaningly as "Tree Huggers". And how do you know today's intolerance and bad behaviour is not partly or greatly to blame on excessive bad language? You claim they are merely reflective on society, yet similar views to mine were expressed by many black community leaders regarding the influence of 'gangsta rap' which people like you claimed was simply reflecting "the streets". You don't have to agree with my opinion, and I equally yours. The point is where were you about two years ago when there was hardly any swearing in video games? When did you first come to this view that swearing in games is 'cool' and those who don't like it must have no choice, no profanity filter but just suffer ignominious and unconditional acceptance?sorello

Firstly, I haven't levied any personal assaults against you. I've attacked your arguments because they are weak and mostly unsubstantiated.

But let's entertain the notion that profanity actually is an evil and damaging component harmful to impressionable youth. (Despite the lack of a single shred of empirical evidence to back that claim up)

Even if I agree that the monkey-see-monkey-do argument is viable (which it is not), why would game manufacturers be culpable in the warping of young minds?

Videogames are rated and their content clearly denoted by a more than adequate rating system. So if a parent is irresponsible enough to let their young, impressionable child play said game, isn't that the failure of the parent to perform their duty? Why do you foist the blame onto the shoulders of developers for making a product not intended for young children?

By your flawed logic, when a kid acquires alcohol illegally it is the fault of the beer company instead of the storekeeper who failed or the parent who didn't bother to notice their child was inebriated. Your entire position is that the inclusion of profanity by default makes these game developers culpable in the degradation of society's morality even though they legally made and distributed a game intended for adults.

By the way, even if a game had a profanity filter, do you really think most kids would turn it off?

Answer: They wouldn't.

As to your history lesson, the hippy phenomenon was a counterculture movement in response to the perceived ideals and norms of the 1950's, which many of the youths in this nation saw as glaringly hypocritical and inequitable. The Vietnam War was merely one facet of their revolution.

As to Gangsta Rap, it was a direct reflection of what was going on in the inner cities and streets of America and it was delivered in a vernacular that reflected the raw and uncensored mentalities of an ethnic group that had been marginalized by society and the government. While I've never been a fan of rap personally, I've edified myself on the art form enough to understand that it was born of a downtrodden group of people criminally neglected and rightfully angry at a corrupt system.

What black leaders have cited in relation to this music had nothing to do with the use of profanity but rather the use of harsh racial slurs and the marginalization and derision of minority women.

Before you presume to teach me or anyone else history, you need to first learn and understand it yourself.

Finally, the issue isn't merely that I don't agree with your opinion; I'm flatly deconstructing your opinion and revealing it to be predicated on weak logic and unsubstantiated claims. Your arguments are rife with logic holes and you've purposely avoided many of the counterpoints aimed directly at these shoddy postulations. You actually asked me "And how do you know today's intolerance and bad behavior is not partly or greatly to blame on excessive bad language?"

How do you know that all of our technology isn't based on aliens? Just because you can't prove something (or disprove it) doesn't make it real. What you fail to grasp is that I don't have to prove anything; this is your argument and you have yet to offer any real evidence to support the bulk of your claims.

You keep making this entirely erroneous claim that profanity barely existed in games until two years ago. Where precisely does this wholly incorrect assertion come from? You really need to provide some manner of evidence to support this because I know for an irrefutable fact that games have contained plenty of profanity going much further back than two years.

As to the profanity filter issue, I've already addressed this but it bears repeating that you are not owed such a filter on any game, film or any other media you purchase. There is something called artistic integrity and some people simply don't feel the need to censor themselves for the sake of placating certain individuals who might find their work offensive. While you may not consider the bleeping of profanity in a TV show, film or game acceptable the ultimate decision to implement such measures falls to the creators. To expect these modifications is unrealistic, as some creative types simply don't care if they offend your personal threshold for profanity. That however does not mean such an omission is part of some grander scheme to corrupt the morality of impressionable children.

Such an assertion is not so much a leap of logic but rather the absence of it entirely.

And that brings me to my final point: there is no "they." Your incessant insistence that there is some concerted, conspiracy at work trying to propagate the usage of profanity in children is puerile and silly. It's the type of baseless, paranoid fantasy that evangelicals predicate their puritanical agendas upon and it's utter nonsense.

Grammaton-Cleric

To the Lord High Grand Poobah of Swearing is Cool; Dead Space a game I played, came out on the XBox near the end of 2008, a little over 2 years but in that region. That game had probably the most gratutitous gore and bloodlust than any other but not a single, iddy, biddy swear word. Dead Space 2 came out January this year and had tons of absolutely pathetic swearing which distracted from the horror itself.

You state that I was making my point as though it were a fact while on your soap-box above you preach that everything YOU say is the truth, there is no conspiracy, no "them" and anyone who argues against is... silly.

As for your contention that its their "art" to put swear words in (when their "art" had none in 2008), these "artists" just want to make as much money as they can and they don't care who they offend or whose youth they mentally corrupt; the fact they are all using the same format (no profanity filter) proves uniform collaboration and those goals together are I believe evil.

Next you would probably proclaim a crap in a bowl is "art", although I seem to remember Andy Warhol did a painting of one and it sold for $10,000,000 so who am I to know?!

To the Lord High Grand Poobah of Swearing is Cool...

Next you would probably proclaim a crap in a bowl is "art", although I seem to remember Andy Warhol did a painting of one and it sold for $10,000,000 so who am I to know?!

sorello

Firstly, I haven't levied any personal assaults against you. I've attacked your arguments because they are weak and mostly unsubstantiated.

...When a kid acquires alcohol illegally it is the fault of the beer company instead of the storekeeper who failed or the parent who didn't bother to notice their child was inebriated. Your entire position is that the inclusion of profanity by default makes these game developers culpable in the degradation of society's morality even though they legally made and distributed a game intended for adults.

By the way, even if a game had a profanity filter, do you really think most kids would turn it off?

Answer: They wouldn't.

As to your history lesson, the hippy phenomenon was a counterculture movement in response to the perceived ideals and norms of the 1950's, which many of the youths in this nation saw as glaringly hypocritical and inequitable. The Vietnam War was merely one facet of their revolution.

As to Gangsta Rap, it was a direct reflection of what was going on in the inner cities and streets of America and it was delivered in a vernacular that reflected the raw and uncensored mentalities of an ethnic group that had been marginalized by society and the government. While I've never been a fan of rap personally, I've edified myself on the art form enough to understand that it was born of a downtrodden group of people criminally neglected and rightfully angry at a corrupt system.

What black leaders have cited in relation to this music had nothing to do with the use of profanity but rather the use of harsh racial slurs and the marginalization and derision of minority women.

Before you presume to teach me or anyone else history, you need to first learn and understand it yourself.

Finally, the issue isn't merely that I don't agree with your opinion; I'm flatly deconstructing your opinion and revealing it to be predicated on weak logic and unsubstantiated claims. Your arguments are rife with logic holes and you've purposely avoided many of the counterpoints aimed directly at these shoddy postulations. You actually asked me "And how do you know today's intolerance and bad behavior is not partly or greatly to blame on excessive bad language?"

How do you know that all of our technology isn't based on aliens? Just because you can't prove something (or disprove it) doesn't make it real. What you fail to grasp is that I don't have to prove anything; this is your argument and you have yet to offer any real evidence to support the bulk of your claims.

Grammaton-Cleric

Apart from the numerous snide remarks and derogatory condescending references to my pertinent argument, something that was debated on Gamespot a couple of years ago and voted on with a 50/50 split whether swearing was bad for gamesm no other than that you've been a pillar of geniality.

The youth in the 60s and 70s were against the Vietnam War because they had the "Draft" in America where any college kid could get sent to the front line with little training and wind up dead at the age of 19...

The black leaders I referred to claimed that "gangsta rap" was creating more violence and making the disaffected many worse off, the rappers claimed they were merely reflecting what was making them angry and disaffected. So how many people have been killed now because of this rap culture?

Nothing to do with your history lession which was a billion miles off the point, so don't pontificate when you don't know what you are talking about.

Lastly, while you ignore every point I make and delude yourself that you are logically dismantling my "weak, puerile and silly" utterances with the venerated wisdom of King Tut and the God Vishnu himself, you are incorrect again that I have to prove anything even though there is plenty of evidence which I've already submitted.

The reason why the game makers wish to denograte or diminish the modern youths moral standards is another whole new topic not entirely suitable for a gaming forum. But as said its now in music when it wasn't before and its getting worse every year; where will it end?

As someone going for a double major in linguistics and history, the notion that bad language only became prevalent in the last few years, or that it is something that can be easily blamed on hip hop is just really far removed from reality and borderline offensive. Here is an article that should be easy enough to digest without delving too deep into linguistics. Basically, this s*** has been with us a long time. It makes sense then for it to be in our games. A lot of us have grown up with this media. There is a market for games that tackle mature subject matter or at the very least games that have characters that swear. It is a natural part of language, not some abomination hellbent on destroying our youth.

To the Lord High Grand Poobah of Swearing is Cool; Dead Space a game I played, came out on the XBox near the end of 2008, a little over 2 years but in that region. That game had probably the most gratutitous gore and bloodlust than any other but not a single, iddy, biddy swear word. Dead Space 2 came out January this year and had tons of absolutely pathetic swearing which distracted from the horror itself.

You state that I was making my point as though it were a fact while on your soap-box above you preach that everything YOU say is the truth, there is no conspiracy, no "them" and anyone who argues against is... silly.

As for your contention that its their "art" to put swear words in (when their "art" had none in 2008), these "artists" just want to make as much money as they can and they don't care who they offend or whose youth they mentally corrupt; the fact they are all using the same format (no profanity filter) proves uniform collaboration and those goals together are I believe evil.

Next you would probably proclaim a crap in a bowl is "art", although I seem to remember Andy Warhol did a painting of one and it sold for $10,000,000 so who am I to know?!

sorello

So the entire foundation of your argument is based on the two Dead Space games?

And that's it?

The first had little to no swearing and the second had copious amounts of profanity and that is the proof that this industry is looking to warp the youths of this world?

That's your evidence?

Sorry, but that simply isn't enough proof to substantiate your position.

Also, you keep placing words into my mouth. I never said my position was the absolute truth but what I have insisted upon is that you have a responsibility to support, defend and clarify your position, which you haven't done.

And yes, your claims of a "them" is silly. If you really believe there is a vast and concerted effort to corrupt the youth of our society via profanity in gaming then why would you support the medium at all? Surely something so sinister and malignant should be boycotted entirely, yet you seem morally content in supporting these minions of depravity as long as they offer you the option to turn the profanity off.

I've already exhausted the artistic integrity argument so instead let's focus on these rather outlandish claims:

"As for your contention that its their "art" to put swear words in (when their "art" had none in 2008), these "artists" just want to make as much money as they can and they don't care who they offend or whose youth they mentally corrupt; As for your contention that its their "art" to put swear words in (when their "art" had none in 2008), these "artists" just want to make as much money as they can and they don't care who they offend or whose youth they mentally corrupt;"

Such generalizations are merely a form of lazy thinking and poor logic. I've read countless interviews with developers, many of whom have children of their own, and quite a few of them seem very cognizant of the fact that they make a product children want to play. However, they also make it clear these rating systems are in place for a reason and implore parents to do their jobs and make certain not to buy these games for underage youths. Your attempt to paint these creative people as heartless profiteers is crassly disingenuous.

Then you again claim there is a vast conspiracy at work:

"the fact they are all using the same format (no profanity filter) proves uniform collaboration and those goals together are I believe evil."

The lack of a profanity filter is not a format, it's a choice by the developers not to censor their work or allow others to censor it.

And in no way does that constitute anything even remotely resembling evidence of "uniform collaboration."

Incidentally, if your thesis was actually correct, that would mean that EA and Activision, who are currently at war over the FPS market, would set aside their competitive differences to meet and conspire to corrupt the nation's children, then get back to trying to defeat each other in the marketplace.

Does that make sense to you?

Lastly, art is relative, abstract and in many ways indefinable. I don't presume to lecture people on what art actually is and instead I respect the creative process and the choices made within that genesis. If a developer doesn't want to include a profanity filter then that is their creative right.

...the notion that bad language only became prevalent in the last few years...

rragnaar

Bad language has only become prevalent in the last few years in VIDEO GAMES as I said. There was barely any in games from 2008 and before.

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]

...the notion that bad language only became prevalent in the last few years...

sorello

Bad language has only become prevalent in the last few years in VIDEO GAMES as I said. There was barely any in games from 2008 and before.

Apart from the numerous snide remarks and derogatory condescending references to my pertinent argument, something that was debated on Gamespot a couple of years ago and voted on with a 50/50 split whether swearing was bad for gamesm no other than that you've been a pillar of geniality.

The youth in the 60s and 70s were against the Vietnam War because they had the "Draft" in America where any college kid could get sent to the front line with little training and wind up dead at the age of 19...

The black leaders I referred to claimed that "gangsta rap" was creating more violence and making the disaffected many worse off, the rappers claimed they were merely reflecting what was making them angry and disaffected. So how many people have been killed now because of this rap culture?

Nothing to do with your history lession which was a billion miles off the point, so don't pontificate when you don't know what you are talking about.

Lastly, while you ignore every point I make and delude yourself that you are logically dismantling my "weak, puerile and silly" utterances with the venerated wisdom of King Tut and the God Vishnu himself, you are incorrect again that I have to prove anything even though there is plenty of evidence which I've already submitted.

The reason why the game makers wish to denograte or diminish the modern youths moral standards is another whole new topic not entirely suitable for a gaming forum. But as said its now in music when it wasn't before and its getting worse every year; where will it end?

sorello

Attacking your argument is what debate is all about. The fact that you take this so personally demonstrates you are not versed in the parameters of logical argumentation.

Again, I'm attacking your arguments, not you.

No college kids were sent to the frontlines during the Vietnam War unless they dropped out of school. Being enrolled in college kept kids out of the war which is why Vietnam also became such a focal point for the inequities of a government that protected rich white kids (the majority of college students at this time in history) while sending poor kids and minorities to die.

As to Gansta Rap, I'd love for you to cite an article, speech or interview where any credible black leader claims that rap was actually causing violence. I've researched this topic extensively and watched several lengthy and informative documentaries on the subject and most of the complaints levied against rap were that it reinforced negative stereotypes while deriding women. Your insinuation that rap culture has actually caused violence is also weak, as the violent culture that spawned the art form already existed.

And yes, the onus remains firmly on you to prove YOUR arguments. A cryptic statement on how such discussions are not appropriate for a game message board is back peddling nonsense. You created a profile just to post your opinion so please, feel free to share the deeper nuances of your position so that we can more fully understand your stance on the issue.

That is a sincere invitation so please accept.

Even if I agree that the monkey-see-monkey-do argument is viable (which it is not), why would game manufacturers be culpable in the warping of young minds?

Videogames are rated and their content clearly denoted by a more than adequate rating system. So if a parent is irresponsible enough to let their young, impressionable child play said game, isn't that the failure of the parent to perform their duty? Why do you foist the blame onto the shoulders of developers for making a product not intended for young children?

By your flawed logic, when a kid acquires alcohol illegally it is the fault of the beer company instead of the storekeeper who failed or the parent who didn't bother to notice their child was inebriated. Your entire position is that the inclusion of profanity by default makes these game developers culpable in the degradation of society's morality even though they legally made and distributed a game intended for adults.

By the way, even if a game had a profanity filter, do you really think most kids would turn it off?

Answer: They wouldn't.

Grammaton-Cleric

Two points. If a beer vendor markets his product to be sold to kids, then he is to blame. The game producers are deliberately (obviously) targetting the youth, 13 years and upwards. They get away with selling their flawed "art" with a limp censoring regulatory body which does not rate swearing alone as worthy of a higher age limit certificate. Games that are more harmful have material which can be easily duplicated, such as swearing and not blowing up a planet, for example.

You fail to see that this is more dangerous to spoon-feed to our youth than all the explosions and gore which is generally looked at as 'simulated' and cartoon-like. I saw an episode of Supernanny (don't ask why) and the under 5 year-old children were swearing. Is that the type of society you want?

So if two mega companies both start producing ALL of their shoot-em-ups post 2008 with tons of swearing in them and neither sees a point of including any profanity filter (as World of Warcraft has, the most popular game ever, a point you refuse to recognise) then one must conclude this is a conspiracy or an arrangement between so-called competitors.

As for your latest point, I've played dozens of other games of similar type, Deus Ex, Half-Life, etc, which also was pre 2009 and had not a single swear word. I didn't think you wanted me to list them all or were you just being pedantic on purpose.

Regarding the condemnation of rap music by black leaders claiming they were making the violence worse, I saw this on a TV news channel several years ago, but you can verify that some notable black leaders in American society such as Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey also spoke out with the same criticism. Indeed President Obama said many of the black youth had "lost their way". I don't know how many more have been shot to death because of rap culture but it was definitely not as bad in the days of soul and funk. Music is a very powerful message and does affect lives! My profile was created many years ago, not for this topic, as I watched many excellent game reviews before buying a game on Gamespot. I haven't bothered to use the forums much until now, to air a topic which meant a lot to me. And I don't buy many games I think I may like because of the threat of excessive bad language. A profanity filter would show some intent by the major games industry that they are catering for all tastes, and equally display they have no alternative agenda, no ulterior motive to include swearing in modern games. Until more people like me demand this, it won't happen. But if their "art" had to be sacrificed to make a fast buck, they would axe swearing in games faster than they introduced it.

Another key point that you seem to be glossing over is that the average gamers are men in their mid thirties, and that number is increasing. These youth that they're supposedly corrupting aren't even their core demographic, so there's another hole in your conspiracy theory.

It's a billion dollar industry whose sole purpose is to make money, something that children don't have a lot of. They pander to guys with full time jobs.

And stop making profanity filters sound so simple. Filtering out profanity in text like World of Warcraft is nothing compared to adding a separate 5.1 surround sound audio track that blanks out any naughty words.

Another key point that you seem to be glossing over is that the average gamers are men in their mid thirties, and that number is increasing. These youth that they're supposedly corrupting aren't even their core demographic, so there's another hole in your conspiracy theory.

It's a billion dollar industry whose sole purpose is to make money, something that children don't have a lot of. They pander to guys with full time jobs.

And stop making profanity filters sound so simple. Filtering out profanity in text like World of Warcraft is nothing compared to adding a separate 5.1 surround sound audio track that blanks out any naughty words.

syztem

Wrong! Most gamers are teenage kids and some early twenty year-olds.

And profanity filters are easy. They have a script which can easily be traced through the entire game to blank out the offending words. They do it in many movies which appear on mainstream TV, even redubbing parts completely.

[QUOTE="syztem"]

Another key point that you seem to be glossing over is that the average gamers are men in their mid thirties, and that number is increasing. These youth that they're supposedly corrupting aren't even their core demographic, so there's another hole in your conspiracy theory.

It's a billion dollar industry whose sole purpose is to make money, something that children don't have a lot of. They pander to guys with full time jobs.

And stop making profanity filters sound so simple. Filtering out profanity in text like World of Warcraft is nothing compared to adding a separate 5.1 surround sound audio track that blanks out any naughty words.

sorello

Wrong! Most gamers are teenage kids and some early twenty year-olds.

And profanity filters are easy. They have a script which can easily be traced through the entire game to blank out the offending words. They do it in many movies which appear on mainstream TV, even redubbing parts completely.

This is a new trend by the American manufacturers to introduce a "rap" culture into today's games and perhaps even corrupt our youth into learning to speak that way in normal real-life. It certainly is a deliberate exercise to bring down the morality level in games, some perhaps thinking it gives more "street cred".

sorello

Lol, why speak on something you could never understand?Let's blame the 'rap culture' as the main influence for all explicit speaking teenagers. By your standards, I guess the explicit language used in games like GTA Vice City and Unchartedwas influcenced by the 'rap culture' as well. Everyone cries 'potty mouth' for using infamous four letter words but no one has a problem with using God's name in vein.

u r not real

[QUOTE="sorello"]To the self-professed cleric: Perhaps I should have used the word "one" when I typed - In the end it shows your (ones) ignorance lacking communication levels to better express yourself rather than just saying oh "F### it". - unquote. It certainly is easier to swear rather than use reason or making cognisant rational argument. But for one condemning my perceived insult (which it wasn't) you sure throw a bunch back! I did not know you cared so much about keeping this new medium of vulgar communication that you would not even contemplate the allowance of a profanity filter, such as in online games like World of Warcraft. Oh, did you forget that WoW has the BIGGEST volume of users than any other video game today? Maybe WoW is not realistic enough for you; you must have your swearing "fix". As for my view, which I've stated many times that is all it is, it is not greater than anyone else's, especially a Grand Poobah such as yourself. The fact I believe there is a deliberate reason why the game makers refuse to allow that which is included in World of Warcraft, a profanity filter or 'bleeper', shows to me ill intent or evil. Swearing as I said in my first preface is easy to copy and carry from games than mutilation or violent imagery. To copy the latter acts one who have to commit a major crime, a threshold most normal folk choose not to cross. But they can resort to using more foul language because of the casual influence of games, something I REPEAT was barely around a couple of years ago. Something that is easier to imitate is more of a threat particularly when a vast majority deems the source offensive. And as much as you like to pontificate, words do harm - that is one of the basic ways which we communicate: you even managed to be offended by my use of the word ignorance in a global term, and ignorance is not the same as stupidity. The youth has always rebelled in one form or another, but in the 60 and 70s they formed the Hippie movement and opposed the Vietnam War. Today that lot are referred to demeaningly as "Tree Huggers". And how do you know today's intolerance and bad behaviour is not partly or greatly to blame on excessive bad language? You claim they are merely reflective on society, yet similar views to mine were expressed by many black community leaders regarding the influence of 'gangsta rap' which people like you claimed was simply reflecting "the streets". You don't have to agree with my opinion, and I equally yours. The point is where were you about two years ago when there was hardly any swearing in video games? When did you first come to this view that swearing in games is 'cool' and those who don't like it must have no choice, no profanity filter but just suffer ignominious and unconditional acceptance?Uncle_Tbag

You're in a game-forum populated with kids who have yet to form any sense of the real impact of morality and the impact ofhow one comports themselves in society. Not that I really agree with you a whole lot, but you're getting way mistread here. But that's to be expect in a game forum, right?

Its always a shame when someone is mistread on a gaming forum.

Its hilarious and horrifying that the TC believes gory dismemberment and death is wonderful stuff, but winces whenever he hears profanity.

Regarding the condemnation of rap music by black leaders claiming they were making the violence worse, I saw this on a TV news channel several years ago, but you can verify that some notable black leaders in American society such as Bill Cosby and Oprah Winfrey also spoke out with the same criticism. Indeed President Obama said many of the black youth had "lost their way". I don't know how many more have been shot to death because of rap culture but it was definitely not as bad in the days of soul and funk. Music is a very powerful message and does affect lives! My profile was created many years ago, not for this topic, as I watched many excellent game reviews before buying a game on Gamespot. I haven't bothered to use the forums much until now, to air a topic which meant a lot to me. And I don't buy many games I think I may like because of the threat of excessive bad language. A profanity filter would show some intent by the major games industry that they are catering for all tastes, and equally display they have no alternative agenda, no ulterior motive to include swearing in modern games. Until more people like me demand this, it won't happen. But if their "art" had to be sacrificed to make a fast buck, they would axe swearing in games faster than they introduced it.

sorello

You're talking about things you clearly know little about in order to advance a weak argument. The black community has problems (only 50% of males graduate high school, 70% of kids born outside of marriage, disproportionately high rates of abortion and incarceration) but all of those problems predate rap by decades.

Old people railing against new music is nothing new (every genre of music shocks and horrifies parents when it is introduced). Videogames are kind of in the same boat. As with rap music, acceptance comes with time (both were once fringe and are now extremely, perhaps overly mainstream).

The only time I'm annoyed by swearing is when it is obviously implemented to try and appeal to teeny boppers. It's like with those embarassingly laughable sex scenes in the God of War games; it just makes me feel like the dev isn't taking me seriously at all.

I think people who are seriously offended by a foul word now and then should just man up, though.

Wrong! Most gamers are teenage kids and some early twenty year-olds.sorello

The average gamer is 37 years old and has been playing for 12 years. Eighty-two percent of gamers are 18 years of age or older. Today, adult women represent a greater portion of the game-playing population (37 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (13 percent). The average age of the most frequent game purchaser is 41 years old.

UK Gamers

• The average gaming age is now 23+.
• 38.2% of the UK population is an active computer gamer.
• 51.2% of British men and 25.1% of British women aged 10-35 play games regularly.
• The average computer gamer has been playing for over 10 years.
• On average, gamers play for 11 hours per week.
• 27.2% of all active gamers in the UK are women.
• The average age of the UK female gamer is 30-35 years old.

Source (2005)
Another study of UK gamers is available from the BBC's New Media Research website.

US Gamers

• The average game player is 35 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.
• The average game buyer is 39 years old, a year younger than in 2006.
• 40% percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (34%) than boys age 17 or younger (18%).
• In 2009, 25% of Americans over the age of 50 played video games.
• 37% of heads of households play games on a wireless device, such as a cell phone or PDA, up from 20 percent in 2002.
• 63% of parents believe games are a positive part of their children's lives.

Source (2010)

That does not take into account many kids are ripping games off, downloading pirate copies from the black market. Me speaking from England my guess was fairly accurate at an average age of 23+. Seems America has a greater problem than us, if you believe those stats. They also claim passive smoking was the main cause of cancer in non-smokers.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Skyrim which as stated by someone else earlier, should not have any swearing in being a fantasy game. I hope...

PS: GTA was one of the worst games ever created and the subject matter condemned roundly in this country.

I completely disagree. It all depends on the game. If it's E rated game? Yes? I would say you are correct. If it's a T rated game? Excessive swearing? Yes, probably. M rated game? Not at all. There just happens to feel like there are a lot more M rated games I guess. Then again the average gamer is in their mid twentites to mid thirties from what I hear.

That does not take into account many kids are ripping games off, downloading pirate copies from the black market. Me speaking from England my guess was fairly accurate at an average age of 23+. Seems America has a greater problem than us, if you believe those stats. They also claim passive smoking was the main cause of cancer in non-smokers.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Skyrim which as stated by someone else earlier, should not have any swearing in being a fantasy game. I hope...

PS: GTA was one of the worst games ever created and the subject matter condemned roundly in this country.

sorello

Let's assume for the moment your theory is true about the amount of games being ripped off, downloaded illegally or pirated by impressionable minors.

How s that the fault of developers? Do you really expect them to be held accountable for kids who steal their merchandise?

Do you even realize how warped your arguments are at this juncture? Even if I accepted all of this ridiculous and baseless conjecture as truth, there is still the nagging and persistent issue that these kids are STEALING to get the games, which means their respective moral compasses were already out of alignment before they were exposed to these "evil" cuss words.

You have once again demonstrated the vapidity and inherent weakness of your position. You have quite literally disproven your own moral ideology, unless you expect me to believe that profanity is somehow worse that theft.

And no, your estimates were not correct. You asserted earlier that most gamers were "teenage kids" and "some" early twenty-year olds. That claim has been proven false.

Most gamers are adults. FACT.

And GTA as a series is one of the most critically acclaimed franchises in the history of gaming. FACT.

You were shocked that NPC in Dead Space 2 used bad language?

Frankly I think that if they had shouted " Good heavens, I do believe a horde of brutally alien infested humanoids are indeed pulling off my appendages, May I require some assistance?", then it would be very out of place.

Two points. If a beer vendor markets his product to be sold to kids, then he is to blame. The game producers are deliberately (obviously) targetting the youth, 13 years and upwards. They get away with selling their flawed "art" with a limp censoring regulatory body which does not rate swearing alone as worthy of a higher age limit certificate. Games that are more harmful have material which can be easily duplicated, such as swearing and not blowing up a planet, for example.

You fail to see that this is more dangerous to spoon-feed to our youth than all the explosions and gore which is generally looked at as 'simulated' and cartoon-like. I saw an episode of Supernanny (don't ask why) and the under 5 year-old children were swearing. Is that the type of society you want?

So if two mega companies both start producing ALL of their shoot-em-ups post 2008 with tons of swearing in them and neither sees a point of including any profanity filter (as World of Warcraft has, the most popular game ever, a point you refuse to recognise) then one must conclude this is a conspiracy or an arrangement between so-called competitors.

As for your latest point, I've played dozens of other games of similar type, Deus Ex, Half-Life, etc, which also was pre 2009 and had not a single swear word. I didn't think you wanted me to list them all or were you just being pedantic on purpose.

sorello

Videogames are marketed to their target demographic: men over the age of 18 and well into their 30's. The fact that underage kids want to play mature titles is nothing new as kids have been sneaking into rated R flicks for decades. Youth is always in a hurry to experience the fruits of adulthood but that fact doesn't indict the industry as collaborators looking to pervert our youth.

You are also entirely incorrect about that "limp" regulatory body, at least as it exists here in the States. The ESRB will give an M rating for excessive profanity just as the MPAA will doll out an R rating for excessive profanity in films. They are so stringent that they have actually become de facto censors in some cases and have impeded games from being released as originally intended by the developers.

As to the WOW issue, that profanity filter was a decision made by the creative team and the publisher of a massive MMO. That is their prerogative but the fact that other developers opt to not place such filters in their games isn't proof of anything except their decision to maintain creative control over their work.

Again, conjecture isn't evidence.

You also claim games before 2008 didn't have profanity and that is entirely untrue. Whether or not newer games contain a larger quantity is an issue that would actually require some serious research, something you clearly aren't interested in doing.

And I flatly reject your theory that profanity is something overtly damaging to the youth of this or any nation. You've offered nothing in the way of evidence or even a compelling argument to support that assertion.

That episode of Supernanny you allude to isn't proof of anything more than apathetic and irresponsible parents incapable of raising their child properly. Also, do you really think a five year old was playing M rated games filled with profanity? Did the episode show them playing such games? And if so, why would any parent let such a young child play such software and how exactly is that the developer's fault?

Nothing chafes my ass more than people who swear with every other goddamn word. I am with you op. I am so goddamn with you.

Sure, you would be moderated but GameSpot has very little to do with American Culture as a whole. Our pop icons and celebrities/singers are extremely open about their sexuality. Swearing is also becoming less of an issue, which is why I'm kind of surprised at this thread. A lot of people know when not to swear, and honestly, Topic Creator, if you hate swearing and don't want it in your games read the back of the game. If the ESRB has said "Strong Language" simply put the game down so you don't get so angry about it. That way, you won't play the game or care about the "rap culture" in Dead Space 2. :DSleepArrest

you're either just arguing to argue, or you're seriously ignorant about how sexual imagery is treated in other cultures.

it's common knowledge that in a lot of european countries nudity is not taboo like it is here. comparing britney spears showing some cleavage and sending the religious types in tizzy is not the same as walking into an airport lobby at gatwick and seeing naked women in every car magazine/maxim mag/newspaper.

just stop arguing. the guy was right, here in america our priorities for what's inappropriate are all skewed. many parents would rather their children see someone get their intestines ripped out and fed to the them than see a nipple.

[QUOTE="syztem"]

"Evil" is an extraordinary claim, and you haven't provided any extraordinary evidence. This is the type of hypothesis that gets thrown out instantly after being subjected to any skeptical investigation.

sorello

how is it that a sex scene would disturb you more than the hyper violence you seem to enjoy? one is a natural act of love between two people, the other is someone prematurely ending someone's life and causing them great suffering. i would honestly rather have my kid see a sex scene. here is a tip: DON'T BUY MATURE RATED GAMES IF YOU'RE NOT MATURE ENOUGH TO HANDLE THEM!

Take two examples: I played Dead Space 1 and enjoyed the utter horror and bloodfest of it all to the end. I bought Dead Space 2 a few months later to hear pockets of swearing from various NPCs which distracted my concentration on the horror and spoiled the game somewhat for me.sorello

"UK Gamers

• The average gaming age is now 23+.
• 38.2% of the UK population is an active computer gamer.
• 51.2% of British men and 25.1% of British women aged 10-35 play games regularly.
• The average computer gamer has been playing for over 10 years.
• On average, gamers play for 11 hours per week.
• 27.2% of all active gamers in the UK are women.
• The average age of the UK female gamer is 30-35 years old.

Source (2005)
Another study of UK gamers is available from the BBC's New Media Research website.

US Gamers

• The average game player is 35 years old and has been playing games for 12 years.
• The average game buyer is 39 years old, a year younger than in 2006.
• 40% percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (34%) than boys age 17 or younger (18%).
• In 2009, 25% of Americans over the age of 50 played video games.
• 37% of heads of households play games on a wireless device, such as a cell phone or PDA, up from 20 percent in 2002.
• 63% of parents believe games are a positive part of their children's lives.

Source (2010)

That does not take into account many kids are ripping games off, downloading pirate copies from the black market. Me speaking from England my guess was fairly accurate at an average age of 23+. Seems America has a greater problem than us, if you believe those stats. They also claim passive smoking was the main cause of cancer in non-smokers.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to Skyrim which as stated by someone else earlier, should not have any swearing in being a fantasy game. I hope...

PS: GTA was one of the worst games ever created and the subject matter condemned roundly in this country."

you just proved yourself wrong. a few posts ago you say that "most gamers are in their early 20s and teens" then you post this and completely discredit yourself.

[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]nismo8000

Let's picture an action game with no swearing.

(main character just saw a man slaughtering his whole family): Are you crazy, you goofy. I will find you, you silly head.
(main character gets his arm cut): Ouch, that hurted.

Pretty cool, next time a robber points a gun at you in real life, don't forget to say "darn it" instead of "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU"

I'm going to ask this question again because it warrants a direct response from Sorello:

If you really believe that there is an industry-wide conspiracy to harm children by way of placing profanity into games, why are you playing and buying software at all?

You are directly supporting a machine you claim exists to harm and corrupt children.

That makes absolutely no sense.

Please justify your position.

I think it just adds to the realism and believability of the game, If someone witnessed a giant spaceship coming down from space, a nuke going off, or any other catastrophic world changing event and didn't atleast mutter a swear word under their breathe I wouldn't find it very believable.

and about the wild west game, i would be shocked if there wasn't any swearing, you think of the wild west and you think of dirty rotten nasty people, there where far less "manners" in those days and the law took a backseat to people settling things themselves with guns in the middle of the street.

Swearing in games is way overused. In the majority of times it is simply used to cover up bad writing. Earlier games never use to have so much swearing, now it is all you hear. Look at Alone in the Dark - the original was one of the most fun and scary games of all time and did not need to utter a single curse work. The remake is rife with F-bombs and totally fails to create any sort of atmosphere.

As for corrupting our youth, that may be a little over dramatic :shock:

...Grammaton-Cleric

1. People jumped on the word "evil." I think it is important to note that OP used the phrase "a modern evil," not expressly calling it Evil in the sense of being the great EVIL, but rather just using it to turn a provocative phrase. In that regard, it succeeded- it sure got my attention.

I've played M-rated games since before I was old enough to be legally sold one and cussing does not bother me, so long as it has good context and somehow adds to the experience of the game. A lot of the newer games, however, just randomly sling around the "F-word" like some sort of fad. That just makes a game seem immature and less appealing to me.