a scientific proof that GOD existes ... ( long read )...

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MystikFollower

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#451 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="AussieePet"]

Well im sure everyone on GS is a atheist, We as Christian are targets, i wish we all can get alone :)

I hate when atheist think their more educated on the world existing than us Christians , and make fairy tale jokes.....

bloodling

I don't think it's meant as a joke, it's used as a means to illustrate our opinion. I agree with you about people teasing others because of their education, but you'd be surprised to see Christians saying the same thing about us.

Very true. A TON of people, atheist and theist alike, are just as misguided because they have the idea that their beliefs are correct and that the other is wrong, and since humans have a huge tendency to make others wrong, and themselves right (for ego-centric reasons usually) that's where much of the senseless insulting comes from. I try to accept everyone's beliefs as their personal truth, which is what is more important than WHAT that truth is. If you are a Christian who believes fully in Christ and is trying to live as he lived, then hold onto that truth and that belief with all your heart. But don't make others wrong because they believe differently. They've just come to their own personal beliefs based on the God of their understanding (which since God is incomprehensible to us, it's the only thing we CAN do).

If you are an atheist who completely doesn't believe God exists, and believes in the Laws of Physics, and science for your understanding, then hold on to that with all your heart. An atheist is no more morally inept than a theist and I'm sure God is less concerned with how (or if) you believe in it, and more with your experience in life and evolution through life. Cause we evolve all the time, every day, as we learn and grow as individuals.

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bloodling

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#452 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

That's all things we can't speculate on though cause if God created all the Matter and is the energy driving all energy in the Universe, then God is apart and far more vast than the concepts of space and time that we've come to understand. He's apart from time (which began with the Universe 13.7 billion years ago) and he's apart from space. To speculate "how long" he was sitting in some void is impossible since the flow of time didn't exist before the Universe was created.

MystikFollower

Is it even possible to be apart from time or space? If so, is it possible to be outside these things and have control over them? I think both answers are no.

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#453 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

That's all things we can't speculate on though cause if God created all the Matter and is the energy driving all energy in the Universe, then God is apart and far more vast than the concepts of space and time that we've come to understand. He's apart from time (which began with the Universe 13.7 billion years ago) and he's apart from space. To speculate "how long" he was sitting in some void is impossible since the flow of time didn't exist before the Universe was created.

bloodling

Is it even possible to be apart from time or space? If so, is it possible to be outside these things and have control over them? I think both answers are no.

Is it even possible to create a singularity that is infinitely dense and hot, and then in the course of a few microseconds, have it inflate by billions of light years carrying with it all the necessary ingredients and laws of physical properties to eventually grow into stars, planets, galaxies, and life? I would say no, but it happened. The point is, we can't speculate on what is or isn't possible with God, because quite simply, we don't have the capacity to comprehend how a being can live in a timeless reality, outside of space, yet encompass all of existence.

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livingundead

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#454 livingundead
Member since 2004 • 225 Posts

[QUOTE="livingundead"]

This has probably been stated already (if it hasn't...well I'd be kinda disappointed), but if matter and energy cannot be created (nor destroyed) then how was God created and how did he make matter and energy?

God has to be matter and energy if he is able to create something, right? And if not how long was he standing there before he figured 'Hmmm...this is really boring, maybe I should do something about it.'

I mean, even if he (generalizing here, don't be offended, I could refer to him as 'it') isn't a living being or lifeform he has to be there, or somewhere, therefore he has to be energy or matter.

I don't think it is possible to prove or disprove the existance of God using science.

SO, with that in mind, it's possible for God to just appear out of 'thin air', but not an entire universe? To me that's like saying it's possible to have the rooster without the egg.

MystikFollower

That's all things we can't speculate on though cause if God created all the Matter and is the energy driving all energy in the Universe, then God is apart and far more vast than the concepts of space and time that we've come to understand. He's apart from time (which began with the Universe 13.7 billion years ago) and he's apart from space. To speculate "how long" he was sitting in some void is impossible since the flow of time didn't exist before the Universe was created.

I had the idea recently that perhaps God's reasoning for creating the Universe was to do more than know itself conceptually as consciousness, but to experience that knowing. In order to do that, there would have to be something that God is not, which before the Universe, all there would have been was God. Maybe it created it as way of separating itself into different forms that could evolve, grow, and change. For God, evolution wouldn't be necessary, but since we are small pieces of the giant machine that is the Universe in motion, we experience a passage of time and gradual evolution process.



Hmmm...maybe I never thought of that. God has always been interpreted (to me) as a spiritual being. A 'being' to me would be visualized with human qualities. I never really thought of it as a thing. I mean, I saw the Futurama episode when Bender findswhat could beportrayed as God, but I don't really think I've visualized God as a thing. Something that could just exist.

I mean I still can't say I believe it is possible to prove/disprove God exists using science.

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bloodling

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#455 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

Is it even possible to create a singularity that is infinitely dense and hot, and then in the course of a few microseconds, have it inflate by billions of light years carrying with it all the necessary ingredients and laws of physical properties to eventually grow into stars, planets, galaxies, and life? I would say no, but it happened. The point is, we can't speculate on what is or isn't possible with God, because quite simply, we don't have the capacity to comprehend how a being can live in a timeless reality, outside of space, yet encompass all of existence.

MystikFollower

But it did happen, so however strange it may be we have to accept it, even though we don't understand it. There is nothing that tells us that there is something outside time and space.

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AussieePet

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#456 AussieePet
Member since 2010 • 11424 Posts

[QUOTE="AussieePet"]

Well im sure everyone on GS is a atheist, We as Christian are targets, i wish we all can get alone :)

I hate when atheist think their more educated on the world existing than us Christians , and make fairy tale jokes.....

bloodling

I don't think it's meant as a joke, it's used as a means to illustrate our opinion. I agree with you about people teasing others because of their education, but you'd be surprised to see Christians saying the same thing about us.

Oh I've notice the teasing and the Christians bullying the atheists and the atheists bullying the Christians. everyone have their on belief's. :D

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hydratedleaf

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#457 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

That's all things we can't speculate on though cause if God created all the Matter and is the energy driving all energy in the Universe, then God is apart and far more vast than the concepts of space and time that we've come to understand. He's apart from time (which began with the Universe 13.7 billion years ago) and he's apart from space. To speculate "how long" he was sitting in some void is impossible since the flow of time didn't exist before the Universe was created.

bloodling

Is it even possible to be apart from time or space? If so, is it possible to be outside these things and have control over them? I think both answers are no.

Firstly yes, since time and space are local dimensions of this universe, secondly I don't see why not because a supernatural supreme power could have dominion over the natural world suspend its laws as it wished.
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bloodling

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#458 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

Is it even possible to be apart from time or space? If so, is it possible to be outside these things and have control over them? I think both answers are no.

hydratedleaf

Firstly yes, since time and space are local dimensions of this universe, secondly I don't see why not because a supernatural supreme power could have dominion over the natural world suspend its laws as it wished.

I'm not following you.

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MystikFollower

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#459 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Is it even possible to create a singularity that is infinitely dense and hot, and then in the course of a few microseconds, have it inflate by billions of light years carrying with it all the necessary ingredients and laws of physical properties to eventually grow into stars, planets, galaxies, and life? I would say no, but it happened. The point is, we can't speculate on what is or isn't possible with God, because quite simply, we don't have the capacity to comprehend how a being can live in a timeless reality, outside of space, yet encompass all of existence.

bloodling

But it did happen, so however strange it may be we have to accept it, even though we don't understand it. There is nothing that tells us that there is something outside time and space.

Actually there is something that is outside the realm of relativity. Light. The speed of light is commonly understood as the absolute speed limit of the Universe, but if you were experiencing reality as the light, things would be much different than just travelling 186,282 mph. As we know, the closer to the speed of light an object approaches, the more time and space begins to bend. That's how many scientists say time travel is actually possible, however nothing with mass can attain the speed of light. Now if you were the light, travelling at the speed of light, your experience would be that it takes you no time or space to get anywhere. In reality, light exists in a timeless state, since once reaching the speed of light time would completely bend and you'd find yourself experience a timeless reality.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#460 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

Well im sure everyone on GS is a atheist, We as Christian are targets, i wish we all can get alone :)

I hate when atheist think their more educated on the world existing than us Christians , and make fairy tale jokes.....

AussieePet

Then you should be going after people like the TC, that shows a clear lack of education in the subject he is trying to act a expert on.. Giving all Christians a bad name.. The educated Christians do not open their mouths on such ridiculous arguments in favor for when its based upon faith, it can not be proven.. Furthermore the TC and many others have made the staggering claim that Atheists or "evolutionists" (THERE IS NO SUCH THING, stop claiming this.. Evolution is not a belief, its a scientific theory, you either accept it or disregard it..) of how everything was created.. The Big Bang for instance was not the creation of everything, its just the earliest point scientists can map (and most likely ever map) in the span of hte universe.. What happened before this no one knows.

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#461 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Is it even possible to create a singularity that is infinitely dense and hot, and then in the course of a few microseconds, have it inflate by billions of light years carrying with it all the necessary ingredients and laws of physical properties to eventually grow into stars, planets, galaxies, and life? I would say no, but it happened. The point is, we can't speculate on what is or isn't possible with God, because quite simply, we don't have the capacity to comprehend how a being can live in a timeless reality, outside of space, yet encompass all of existence.

MystikFollower

But it did happen, so however strange it may be we have to accept it, even though we don't understand it. There is nothing that tells us that there is something outside time and space.

Actually there is something that is outside the realm of relativity. Light. The speed of light is commonly understood as the absolute speed limit of the Universe, but if you were experiencing reality as the light, things would be much different than just travelling 186,282 mph. As we know, the closer to the speed of light an object approaches, the more time and space begins to bend. That's how many scientists say time travel is actually possible, however nothing with mass can attain the speed of light. Now if you were the light, travelling at the speed of light, your experience would be that it takes you no time or space to get anywhere. In reality, light exists in a timeless state, since once reaching the speed of light time would completely bend and you'd find yourself experience a timeless reality.

Light isn't outside time and space.
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MystikFollower

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#462 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

But it did happen, so however strange it may be we have to accept it, even though we don't understand it. There is nothing that tells us that there is something outside time and space.

hydratedleaf

Actually there is something that is outside the realm of relativity. Light. The speed of light is commonly understood as the absolute speed limit of the Universe, but if you were experiencing reality as the light, things would be much different than just travelling 186,282 mph. As we know, the closer to the speed of light an object approaches, the more time and space begins to bend. That's how many scientists say time travel is actually possible, however nothing with mass can attain the speed of light. Now if you were the light, travelling at the speed of light, your experience would be that it takes you no time or space to get anywhere. In reality, light exists in a timeless state, since once reaching the speed of light time would completely bend and you'd find yourself experience a timeless reality.

Light isn't outside time and space.

To our perception no, it is not. But as I said, if you were travelling at the speed of light, time and space would shrink to nothing. Here is part of an interesting article I read on the subject of light and it's quite strange properties:

The theory of relativity sprang from the curious character of the speed of light. According to classical physics, measurements of the speed of light should vary according to the motion of the observer. Such variations happen all the time in everyday life. If, for example, you are cycling along a road at 20 m.p.h., and a car traveling at 30 m.p.h. passes you, then, relative to you, the car would be traveling at 10 m.p.h.. If you were to pedal a little faster, until you were also moving at 30 m.p.h., the car's speed relative to you would be zero, and you'd be able to have a conversation with the driver.

Light moves millions of times faster than a bike, so you wouldn't expect to notice any significant differences in its speed relative to you. Nevertheless, you would expect the same principal to apply. The faster you traveled, the slower would be the speed of light relative to you. But when physicists tried to detect these changes, they obtained puzzling results. Whether you traveled towards the light or away from it, the relative speed of light was always the same.

Perplexed by these findings, two American scientists, Albert Michelson and Edard Morley, designed an experiment that could detect variations in the speed of light to an accuracy of two miles per second, which was about a hundred times more accurate than the expected variation. Yet they still came up with exactly the same result. The observed speed of light never varied.

For the existing scientific paradigm, this was a major anomaly. Why did light not obey the same laws as everything else? It just didn't make sense.

Einstein's Paradigm shift

Enter the young Albert Einstein. Having failed his college entrance examinations in electrical engineering, and having been turned down for various teaching posts in mathematics and physics, he had finally gained employment as an "assistant, third class," in the Swiss patent office. During his spare time he pondered various mathematical and physical problems, including the inexplicable results of the Michelson-Morley experiment.

In 1905, at the age of 26, and virtually unknown to the scientific community, he published two seminal papers, one on the quantum nature of light, which we will come to shortly, and one on the "Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies," in which he proposed a radical resolution to the problem of the speed of light, laying the foundations for his Special Theory of Relativity.

The basic premise of relativity was not new. Two hundred and fifty years earlier, Galileo had realized that if you were in a closed room, with no windows, there would be no way of telling whether the room was at rest or moving with a steady velocity; any experiment you were to perform in a moving room would have the same results as one performed in a stationary room.

Imagine, for example, you are flying in a plane and you drop a tennis ball. The ball will fall vertically (from your perspective) to the floor and bounce up again towards your hand. It does not slam into the rear of the plane at 500 miles per hour. Relative to you, the ball behaves in the same way as it would if you were standing on the ground. You cannot tell from the ball's motion alone whether the plane is moving or at rest.

Galileo's theory–now known asclassical relativity–states that the laws of physics are the same in all uniformly moving frames of reference. The phrase "uniformly moving" is important. It means moving at a steady speed in a steady direction. If the plane were accelerating or turning, you could tell that you were moving. The ball would roll across the floor, and you might feel changes in the pressure of the seat against your body.

Classical relativity referred to the motion of physical objects; it said nothing about light. Einstein took classical relativity and brought it up to date. He proposed that the principle of relativity should be valid forallthe laws of physics, including those governing light. These, too, should be the same in all uniformly moving frames.

In 1864, James Clerk Maxwell had proposed that light consisted of electromagnetic waves, with their own equations of motion. These equations specified a precise value for the speed of light of 186,282 miles per second (that's about 670,000,000 miles per hour). If, as Einstein argued, these equations are the same in all uniformly moving frames of reference, then the speed of light must be the same in all such frames.

In other words, however fast you are moving you willalwaysmeasure the speed of light to be 186,282 miles per second–just as Michelson and Morley had found. Even if you were to travel at 186,281 miles per second, light would not pass by a mere 1 mile per second faster; it would still zoom by at 186,282 miles per second. You would not have caught up with light by even the tiniest amount.

This goes totally against common sense. But in this instance it is common sense that is wrong. Our mental models of reality have been derived from a lifetime's experience of a world where velocities are far below the speed of light. At speeds close to that of light, reality is very different.

The Relativity of Space and Time

That the speed of light is the same for all observers, however fast they are moving, is strange enough, but even stranger things are in store for our notions of space and time.

Einstein's equations of motion predict that moving clocks will run slower than clocks that are at rest. At the speeds we usually encounter, the difference is negligible. But as we approach the speed of light the effect becomes quite noticeable. If you were to travel past me at 80 percent the speed of light, I would observe your clocks running one third the speed of mine. This slowing applies not just to man-made clocks, but to all physical processes, to all chemical processes, and to all biological processes. Your whole world appears to run slower than mine. Time itself is running slower.

Weird as this may seem, experiments have shown that this slowing of time does actually happen. Very sensitive atomic clocks have been flown round the world, and they have been found to run slow by exactly the predicted amount. The change is very small–a factor of about one in a trillion–but it is there.

Nor is it just time that changes; space is also affected. As an observer approaches the speed of light, measurements of length (that is, measurements of space in the direction of motion) get shorter, and in exactly the same proportion as time slows. If you were passing by me at 80 percent the speed of light, your measurements of length would have shrunk to one third of mine.

Again this seems to defy common sense; space, like time, seems fundamental and fixed, not something that changes according to your speed. Nevertheless, experiments with subatomic particles traveling at speeds close to that of light have verified the effect. The faster you go, the more compressed space becomes.


For an observer actually traveling at the speed of light, the equations of Special Relativity predict that time would come to a complete standstill, and length would shrink to nothing. Physicists usually avoid considering this strange state of affairs by saying that, since nothing can ever attain the speed of light, we don't have to worry about any weird things that might go on at that speed.The Realm of Light

When physicists say nothing can ever attain the speed of light, they are talking of things with mass. Einstein showed that not only do space and time change as speed increases, so does mass. In the case of mass, however, the change is an increase rather than a decrease; the faster something moves, the greater its mass becomes. If an object were ever to reach the speed of light its mass would become infinite. However, to move an infinite mass would take an infinite amount of energy–more energy than there is in the entire universe. Thus, it is argued, nothing can ever attain the speed of light.

Nothing, that is, except light. Light travels at the speed of light. And it does so because it is not a material object; its mass is always precisely zero.

Since light travels at the speed of light, let's imagine a disembodied observer (pure mind with no mass) traveling at the speed of light. Einstein's equations would then predict that, from light's own point of view, it travels no distance and takes zero time to do so.

This points towards something very strange indeed about the light. Whatever light is, it seems to be in a realm where there is no duration; no before, and no after. There is only "Now."

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hartsickdiscipl

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#463 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

You know what would happen if you went faster than light? You would get to wherever you were going faster than light would. That's it.

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bloodling

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#464 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

Actually there is something that is outside the realm of relativity. Light. The speed of light is commonly understood as the absolute speed limit of the Universe, but if you were experiencing reality as the light, things would be much different than just travelling 186,282 mph. As we know, the closer to the speed of light an object approaches, the more time and space begins to bend. That's how many scientists say time travel is actually possible, however nothing with mass can attain the speed of light. Now if you were the light, travelling at the speed of light, your experience would be that it takes you no time or space to get anywhere. In reality, light exists in a timeless state, since once reaching the speed of light time would completely bend and you'd find yourself experience a timeless reality.

MystikFollower

"It's an error to attribute the usual sort of reference frame to an object moving at the speed of light. A photon doesn't experience time, but in some abstract sense it "experiences" a null coordinate - at least, one can distinguish regular intervals along a photon's worldline. But in spite of the fact that these intervals are regular in some sense, they should not be confused with time. The intervals are not timelike - they are null intervals, neither timelike nor spacelike."

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#465 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

You know what would happen if you went faster than light? You would get to wherever you were going faster than light would. That's it.

hartsickdiscipl

No because you can never go faster then light.. Time actually slows down going the speed of light to make sure that constant is kept and not broken.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#466 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

You know what would happen if you went faster than light? You would get to wherever you were going faster than light would. That's it.

sSubZerOo

No because you can never go faster then light.. Time actually slows down going the speed of light to make sure that constant is kept and not broken.

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure. Relative time might go backwards, but you'd still go to wherever you were headed.

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#467 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

And here's what the article had to say about why we experience Light having a definite speed and taking time to travel.

Why then, does light appear to us to have a very definite speed?

When we observe a photon from our frame of reference, in a sense, we draw out the zero space and zero time of the photon's frame of reference into a definite amount of space and a corresponding amount of time. If we are traveling close to the speed of the photon, we see a little bit of space and a little bit of time between its point of emission and its point of absorption. The slower we travel, the more space and time we observe the photon to have crossed.

If we observe the photon to have crossed space and time, then it appears to us to have a speed. But it is not really a speed at all. What we are observing is theratioin which space and time manifest in our frame of reference. For every 186,282 miles of space that manifests, there always manifests one second of time. It is this ratio that is constant for all observers, however fast they are moving.


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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#468 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

You know what would happen if you went faster than light? You would get to wherever you were going faster than light would. That's it.

hartsickdiscipl

No because you can never go faster then light.. Time actually slows down going the speed of light to make sure that constant is kept and not broken.

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure.

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#469 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

No because you can never go faster then light.. Time actually slows down going the speed of light to make sure that constant is kept and not broken.

sSubZerOo

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure.

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

Define reality.

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hydratedleaf

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#470 hydratedleaf
Member since 2010 • 159 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure.

hartsickdiscipl

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

Define reality.

Bloody hell u_u
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#471 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

No because you can never go faster then light.. Time actually slows down going the speed of light to make sure that constant is kept and not broken.

sSubZerOo

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure.

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

Exactly. As I just posted, we experience light having a definite speed and movement, based on the frame of reference we are viewing it from. It never changes however, even if we were to approach just under the speed of light. If I went 2 miles an hour slower than the speed of light, it would still surpass me completely. I would experience it taking less time and space to travel, since I'd be very close to that speed as well, but from my point of reference, light would still travel the same speed and leave me completely behind.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#472 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

And here's what the article had to say about why we experience Light having a definite speed and taking time to travel.

Why then, does light appear to us to have a very definite speed?

When we observe a photon from our frame of reference, in a sense, we draw out the zero space and zero time of the photon's frame of reference into a definite amount of space and a corresponding amount of time. If we are traveling close to the speed of the photon, we see a little bit of space and a little bit of time between its point of emission and its point of absorption. The slower we travel, the more space and time we observe the photon to have crossed.

If we observe the photon to have crossed space and time, then it appears to us to have a speed. But it is not really a speed at all. What we are observing is theratioin which space and time manifest in our frame of reference. For every 186,282 miles of space that manifests, there always manifests one second of time. It is this ratio that is constant for all observers, however fast they are moving.


MystikFollower

This is a very interesting explanation. Probably the best one I've ever seen.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#473 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure.

hartsickdiscipl

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

Define reality.

Our entire universe.. When you go that speed or close to it.. And walked forward in the vehicle.. You would think you were infact going the speed of light.. But no that is not the case.. Time actually slows down for the people inside the vehicle to make sure they are not ever going to break that limit.. Furthermore we have super novas and the like exploding all around us, that produce more energy that .0001% of the energy produced man will never get near of.

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Teenaged

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#474 Teenaged
Member since 2007 • 31764 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

If the speed of light wasn't able to be surpassed, we wouldn't be able to measure how fast it goes. That's my take on it. Anything that we can measure can be surpassed, given the right methods. We're not going to do it with jet engines, that's for sure.

hartsickdiscipl

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

Define reality.

Define "define".
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hartsickdiscipl

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#475 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

sSubZerOo

Define reality.

Our entire universe.. When you go that speed or close to it.. And walked forward in the vehicle.. You would think you were infact going the speed of light.. But no that is not the case.. Time actually slows down for the people inside the vehicle to make sure they are not ever going to break that limit.. Furthermore we have super novas and the like exploding all around us, that produce more energy that .0001% of the energy produced man will never get near of.

I do believe that there is a way to break the "light barrier," probably by exploiting some other laws of the universe that we don't fully understand yet. I do appreciate your explanation though.

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#476 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

And here's what the article had to say about why we experience Light having a definite speed and taking time to travel.

Why then, does light appear to us to have a very definite speed?

When we observe a photon from our frame of reference, in a sense, we draw out the zero space and zero time of the photon's frame of reference into a definite amount of space and a corresponding amount of time. If we are traveling close to the speed of the photon, we see a little bit of space and a little bit of time between its point of emission and its point of absorption. The slower we travel, the more space and time we observe the photon to have crossed.

If we observe the photon to have crossed space and time, then it appears to us to have a speed. But it is not really a speed at all. What we are observing is theratioin which space and time manifest in our frame of reference. For every 186,282 miles of space that manifests, there always manifests one second of time. It is this ratio that is constant for all observers, however fast they are moving.


hartsickdiscipl

This is a very interesting explanation. Probably the best one I've ever seen.

And the reason we can never surpass, or even reach that speed, is because at the speed of light, your mass would become infinite and it would take an infinite amount of energy (more than in the entire universe) to propel you. Light does exist in a very different reality than the one we experience.

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#477 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

sSubZerOo


Perhaps in Newtonian space.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#478 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

No I am sorry, REALITY actually SLOWS down time to make sure you do NOT break that barrier when going that speed.

Teenaged

Define reality.

Define "define".

Lol.. well, when we're talking quantum mechanics, there's alot that we claim to understand, but really can't.. since we don't have the practical experience in space to really know what we're talking about. Our perceived reality is probably our biggest liablity when trying to approach or break the speed of light.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#479 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Define reality.

hartsickdiscipl

Our entire universe.. When you go that speed or close to it.. And walked forward in the vehicle.. You would think you were infact going the speed of light.. But no that is not the case.. Time actually slows down for the people inside the vehicle to make sure they are not ever going to break that limit.. Furthermore we have super novas and the like exploding all around us, that produce more energy that .0001% of the energy produced man will never get near of.

I do believe that there is a way to break the "light barrier," probably by exploiting some other laws of the universe that we don't fully understand yet. I do appreciate your explanation though.

Mankind will most likely never ever reach any where close to the speed of light in a vehicle or projectile.. The energy alone is staggering to what it takes.. Literally it would take all the energy the world produces in a week to get something the mass of a bowling ball to go anywhere near that speed.. Furthermore we have things like exploding super novas that give off more energy then we can possibly believe not able to break such barriers.. The only thing that does break any barriers is a black hole, in having a gravity acceleration thats faster then the speed of light, but thats a tear in reality.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#480 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Our entire universe.. When you go that speed or close to it.. And walked forward in the vehicle.. You would think you were infact going the speed of light.. But no that is not the case.. Time actually slows down for the people inside the vehicle to make sure they are not ever going to break that limit.. Furthermore we have super novas and the like exploding all around us, that produce more energy that .0001% of the energy produced man will never get near of.

sSubZerOo

I do believe that there is a way to break the "light barrier," probably by exploiting some other laws of the universe that we don't fully understand yet. I do appreciate your explanation though.

Mankind will most likely never ever reach any where close to the speed of light in a vehicle or projectile.. The energy alone is staggering to what it takes.. Literally it would take all the energy the world produces in a week to get something the mass of a bowling ball to go anywhere near that speed.. Furthermore we have things like exploding super novas that give off more energy then we can possibly believe not able to break such barriers.. The only thing that does break any barriers is a black hole, in having a gravity acceleration thats faster then the speed of light, but thats a tear in reality.

One of the most interesting theories that I've read about involves causing the expansion and contraction of dark energy around a vessel. By doing that, you're changing the very fabric of space around the craft.. and changing our whole perception of "reality" in the process. Dark energy is a physical reality in our universe, and part of what supposedly keeps us from going faster than light. It's part of the very fabric of space. Change the fabric, and you change the rules. Granted, it would take an incredible amount of energy, but it's not impossible, at least in theory.

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MystikFollower

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#481 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

I do believe that there is a way to break the "light barrier," probably by exploiting some other laws of the universe that we don't fully understand yet. I do appreciate your explanation though.

hartsickdiscipl

Mankind will most likely never ever reach any where close to the speed of light in a vehicle or projectile.. The energy alone is staggering to what it takes.. Literally it would take all the energy the world produces in a week to get something the mass of a bowling ball to go anywhere near that speed.. Furthermore we have things like exploding super novas that give off more energy then we can possibly believe not able to break such barriers.. The only thing that does break any barriers is a black hole, in having a gravity acceleration thats faster then the speed of light, but thats a tear in reality.

One of the most interesting theories that I've read about involves causing the expansion and contraction of dark energy around a vessel. By doing that, you're changing the very fabric of space around the craft.. and changing our whole perception of "reality" in the process. Dark energy is a physical reality in our universe, and part of what supposedly keeps us from going faster than light. It's part of the very fabric of space. Change the fabric, and you change the rules. Granted, it would take an incredible amount of energy, but it's not impossible, at least in theory.

I've read about that theory and it actually has a solid foundation, though we are still VERY far from even beginning to develop a vehicle that can shrink and expand space faster than light. It's probably the only way we'll be able to effectively break the laws of physics without actually breaking them.

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bloodling

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#482 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

I've read about that theory and it actually has a solid foundation, though we are still VERY far from even beginning to develop a vehicle that can shrink and expand space faster than light. It's probably the only way we'll be able to effectively break the laws of physics without actually breaking them.

MystikFollower

If God was outside time and space and was able to model stuff, wouldn't that break the laws you mentionned, even if you take into account the speed of light and everything?

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#483 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

I've read about that theory and it actually has a solid foundation, though we are still VERY far from even beginning to develop a vehicle that can shrink and expand space faster than light. It's probably the only way we'll be able to effectively break the laws of physics without actually breaking them.

bloodling

If God was outside time and space and was able to model stuff, wouldn't that break the laws you mentionned, even if you take into account the speed of light and everything?

Sorry I've been awake for 24 hours so I'm not sure I understand your question. Rephrase please.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#484 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

Mankind will most likely never ever reach any where close to the speed of light in a vehicle or projectile.. The energy alone is staggering to what it takes.. Literally it would take all the energy the world produces in a week to get something the mass of a bowling ball to go anywhere near that speed.. Furthermore we have things like exploding super novas that give off more energy then we can possibly believe not able to break such barriers.. The only thing that does break any barriers is a black hole, in having a gravity acceleration thats faster then the speed of light, but thats a tear in reality.

MystikFollower

One of the most interesting theories that I've read about involves causing the expansion and contraction of dark energy around a vessel. By doing that, you're changing the very fabric of space around the craft.. and changing our whole perception of "reality" in the process. Dark energy is a physical reality in our universe, and part of what supposedly keeps us from going faster than light. It's part of the very fabric of space. Change the fabric, and you change the rules. Granted, it would take an incredible amount of energy, but it's not impossible, at least in theory.

I've read about that theory and it actually has a solid foundation, though we are still VERY far from even beginning to develop a vehicle that can shrink and expand space faster than light. It's probably the only way we'll be able to effectively break the laws of physics without actually breaking them.

If our planet wasn't split up into hundreds of factions, still squabbling over land and resources, we could do it. As it stands, it would take a very well-funded, incredibly intelligent and motivated group of scientists to make something like this a reality.

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metroidprime55

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#485 metroidprime55
Member since 2008 • 17657 Posts

This thread has gone a whole day, yay!

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#486 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

This thread has gone a whole day, yay!

metroidprime55

At least the discussion is really getting interesting now. :)

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#487 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

I've read about that theory and it actually has a solid foundation, though we are still VERY far from even beginning to develop a vehicle that can shrink and expand space faster than light. It's probably the only way we'll be able to effectively break the laws of physics without actually breaking them.

MystikFollower

If God was outside time and space and was able to model stuff, wouldn't that break the laws you mentionned, even if you take into account the speed of light and everything?

Sorry I've been awake for 24 hours so I'm not sure I understand your question. Rephrase please.

I mean you just said light "break the laws of physics without breaking them". If it doesn't break these laws, can anything possibly break them (like a god)? Or are there other laws that would allow a god outside time and space to create the universe?

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metroidprime55

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#488 metroidprime55
Member since 2008 • 17657 Posts

[QUOTE="metroidprime55"]

This thread has gone a whole day, yay!

MystikFollower

At least the discussion is really getting interesting now. :)

Oh really, I have to jump in, I love when I can get into a good debate.

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hartsickdiscipl

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#489 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

If God was outside time and space and was able to model stuff, wouldn't that break the laws you mentionned, even if you take into account the speed of light and everything?

bloodling

Sorry I've been awake for 24 hours so I'm not sure I understand your question. Rephrase please.

I mean you just said light "break the laws of physics without breaking them". If it doesn't break these laws, can anything possibly break them (like a god)? Or are there other laws that would allow a god outside time and space to create the universe?

I think that there are certainly laws that we don't fully understand. There are elements to the universe that we haven't discovered or fully explored yet, which may change our whole view of our current laws. We may find that we have far more resources at our disposal than we think, and that we were missing a big piece of the puzzle. It's often like that with big scientific breakthroughs.

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MystikFollower

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#490 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

If God was outside time and space and was able to model stuff, wouldn't that break the laws you mentionned, even if you take into account the speed of light and everything?

bloodling

Sorry I've been awake for 24 hours so I'm not sure I understand your question. Rephrase please.

I mean you just said light "break the laws of physics without breaking them". If it doesn't break these laws, can anything possibly break them (like a god)? Or are there other laws that would allow a god outside time and space to create the universe?

I didn't say light breaks the laws of physics without breaking them. I'm saying the only possible way I could see us achieving faster than light travel without breaking the laws of physics, is through the theory of rapidly shrinking and expanding the space around the ship. This would create a spacetime sort of bubble around the ship that allows it travel faster than light, while the people and the ship would experience normal travel, staying within the laws of physics.

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#491 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="metroidprime55"]

This thread has gone a whole day, yay!

metroidprime55

At least the discussion is really getting interesting now. :)

Oh really, I have to jump in, I love when I can get into a good debate.

Well we were talking about one huge example of a timeless existence that exists within our universe and that is light and it's properties. Interestingly enough many of the strange properties attributed to light are things also attributed to an immaterial creator.

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#492 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

Well we were talking about one huge example of a timeless existence that exists within our universe and that is light and it's properties. Interestingly enough many of the strange properties attributed to light are things also attributed to an immaterial creator.

MystikFollower

I would say that's true except for the most important properties.

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MystikFollower

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#493 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Well we were talking about one huge example of a timeless existence that exists within our universe and that is light and it's properties. Interestingly enough many of the strange properties attributed to light are things also attributed to an immaterial creator.

bloodling

I would say that's true except for the most important properties.

Well yeah, I was just pointing out the similarities. Immaterial, timeless, and pretty much everywhere that we can see. Though we never really "see" light. We see the projection of an image that is created by our consciousness from the photons that hit our retinas.

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#494 MisturKite
Member since 2010 • 46 Posts
The bible is my favourite fictional novel.
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#495 metroidprime55
Member since 2008 • 17657 Posts

[QUOTE="metroidprime55"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

At least the discussion is really getting interesting now. :)

MystikFollower

Oh really, I have to jump in, I love when I can get into a good debate.

Well we were talking about one huge example of a timeless existence that exists within our universe and that is light and it's properties. Interestingly enough many of the strange properties attributed to light are things also attributed to an immaterial creator.

So an example of what your saying is the sun is like god because if you look at it you will be blinded, right?

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hartsickdiscipl

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#496 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

The bible is my favourite fictional novel.MisturKite

Please, don't even go there. There are numerous stories in the Bible that historians don't even attempt to question. Those in themselves make the book nonfiction.

EDIT- Nonfiction when read in context, as a whole, and not interpreted to you by the Catholic Church and most mainstream religions. I'm not going to stand by and say that all of the mainsteam interpretations about what's in the Bible are correct. Simply that everything in the book did, from some perspective, happen.

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MystikFollower

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#497 MystikFollower
Member since 2009 • 4061 Posts

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="metroidprime55"]

Oh really, I have to jump in, I love when I can get into a good debate.

metroidprime55

Well we were talking about one huge example of a timeless existence that exists within our universe and that is light and it's properties. Interestingly enough many of the strange properties attributed to light are things also attributed to an immaterial creator.

So an example of what your saying is the sun is like god because if you look at it you will be blinded, right?

Not really no. I was saying that light displays many attributes and properties that theists attribute to God. The fact that looking into the sun will blind you wasn't what I was getting at. Nor is the sun necessarily God.

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#498 Engrish_Major
Member since 2007 • 17373 Posts

[QUOTE="MisturKite"]The bible is my favourite fictional novel.hartsickdiscipl

Please, don't even go there. There are numerous stories in the Bible that historians don't even attempt to question. Those in themselves make the book nonfiction.

You could say the same about the DaVinci Code. That doesn't make it non-fiction.
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#499 bloodling
Member since 2006 • 5822 Posts

[QUOTE="MisturKite"]The bible is my favourite fictional novel.hartsickdiscipl

Please, don't even go there. There are numerous stories in the Bible that historians don't even attempt to question. Those in themselves make the book nonfiction.

No, they do not. Every fiction book can talk about any historic event truthfully and still be considered fiction.

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#500 hartsickdiscipl
Member since 2003 • 14787 Posts

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="MisturKite"]The bible is my favourite fictional novel.bloodling

Please, don't even go there. There are numerous stories in the Bible that historians don't even attempt to question. Those in themselves make the book nonfiction.

No, they do not. Every fiction book can talk about any historic event truthfully and still be considered fiction.

Please read my edited post. Also, I don't believe in current science's abilities to "disprove" or estimate the likelihood of various Biblical events actually happening. They weren't there.. and their scientific methods weren't even created until thousands of years after the events of the Bible. They have no perspective on which to judge events.