a scientific proof that GOD existes ... ( long read )...

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] again not my question. im referring to us this solar system and its convient alighnment. science says ignore faith and accept evidence so show me some hint of evidence something science cannot do here and with evolution till i see a missing link i dont care if the ape is 99% like me its not that 1% is obviously one massive difference and until i see a link tieing me to the ape im not sold.Ninja-Hippo

It's a conspiracy from those pesky biologists.... :P

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] again not my question. im referring to us this solar system and its convient alighnment. science says ignore faith and accept evidence so show me some hint of evidence something science cannot do here and with evolution till i see a missing link i dont care if the ape is 99% like me its not that 1% is obviously one massive difference and until i see a link tieing me to the ape im not sold.Ninja-Hippo

I would say that they're dead primates with more similarities to modern humans than gorillas. Doesn't prove that we evolved from them.

"If it's not tangible, it's not of this dimension."

Wow, I'm glad I dropped out of this thread, or I'd have massive cranial trauma from aggressive facedeskingxaos

Hey for the most part it's been a very interesting discussion. Of course no minds were changed, but I'm staying open minded enough to absorb all this information and some of it is real food for thought. Thanks to Gabu I've learned quite a bit about evolution that I had never taken into account before.

Wow, I'm glad I dropped out of this thread, or I'd have massive cranial trauma from aggressive facedeskingxaos

what i quoted. the planets just conviently lining up correctly. what stopped earth from crashing into jupiter? why wasnt earth moving at such an insane speed that the suns pull couldnt stop it? the moon just happend to come along convinently? all this out of some odd explosion? basically evolution has a half baked explanation of life so if that is true tell me about the planets the moon and sun at the very least are required for life. and all the other planets what stopped them from crashing into each other i mean if everything just sort of exploded did they go boom solar system formed? sorry i cant buy that coincidental of an answer so yes explain pleasekayoticdreamz

So when these rocks and metals, etc. go through accretion (the accumulation of all the hot material that hits with enough force to basically stick together), any material that is spinning above or below this plane get knocked down into line, so to speak. I'm not sure what exactly causes this to happen (this is only from an introductory Astronomy class, mind you), but it is a phenomenon that naturally happens because of the rotation of the nebula. Eventually, a star forms, and all the material that gained enough mass through the process of accretion get bigger and bigger, depending on how many 'stuff' they run into. The Earth and Jupiter are made up of different cores, and this is mostly because certain materials can only exist in a solid state if they're far enough from the sun (less temperature in some zones, I mean).

Also, with this conservation of angular momentum, the center is spinning faster than areas around the center. The Earth couldn't spin faster than the sun because of this. And the moon coming about "conveniently"? The best explanation we have for the formation of the moon was that something with enough mass hit the earth during it's formation, and the resulting chunk from the debris could be the moon. There are a lot of ideas that have to be acknowledged when talking about the formation of the solar system. Like I said, this is just coming from what I remember regarding introductory Astronomy; a class I took a year ago at a community college. Some of the things I said might be wrong (or maybe all of it), so it'd be best to learn about nebular theory yourself. :P Or maybe it's a hypothesis. Either way, I know it's the most widely accepted explanation today... like most things, it's far from perfect, if I recall.

I whole heartdly agree with everything you said there except that I don't remember bringing up evolution theory. :lol: gamingqueen

Evolution is not a concept limited to life. Life is simply the closest example of evolution that we as humans can grasp on.

The evolution of the universe is what I assumed you were talking about, since you said "made the universe and earth movement".

I'm not a Ph.D in physics and only read astronomy stuff when I'm too tired to play games or I'm at school during computer science lessons in lab, so take this with a bit of salt, but here it goes.

Planets are chunks of matter that failed to become stars by not reaching the critical mass needed to trigger thermonuclear fusion, and in time (a LONG time), cooled off. They weren't just "made".

The "movement" in case of planets is an effect of gravity. If the spinning around itself and around the star is not quick enough, the planet will fall into it.

The "movement" in case of bigger astronomical bodies is the effect of the "bang" in the "Big Bang" theory.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Many of the points you made do make alot of sense. However, I don't buy the firstborn theory at all.. nor the boils on the skin as described in the Bible.

GabuEx

As I said, in the wake of the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, people in the area were afflicted with skin diseases much like those described in Exodus. As to the hypothesis about the firstborn, it's obviously inconclusive, but it seems like an eminently viable explanation.

But here are the most important points, IMO- If the Egyptians had seen all of these things also affecting their Isrealite slaves, why release them from bondage as a result of the plagues? The story goes that they released the Isrealites because they believe that their God had brought these plagues upon Egypt. How convincing a display by "God" would it be to bring plagues that also affect the Isrealites? What motive would Pharoah have had to release them? If these events were the result of a natural catastrophe, how were the Isrealites spared?

The idea in the story is that Moses warned Pharoah of each impending plague before it happened. Was Moses able to predict the exact aftermath and timing of this proposed volcanic eruption? If so, who gave him that knowledge?

The fact that the book of Exodus was discovered as being written in what is generally thought to be a later form of the Hebrew language doesn't preclude the possibility that it was translated from an earlier form, written by Moses himself. I have no proof of this, but then again.. these scholars have no proof or educated idea of who wrote the version written in a later Hebrew form, so it's as good a theory as any.

The fact remains- Pharoah would have no good motive to release the Isrealites unless he genuinely believed that these plagues were being brought against Egypt by the God of Moses. How could he have believed that unless the Isrealites were being spared the suffering, at least in large part?\

I'll give you this-- I can accept that it'spossiblethat the Ten Plagues were caused by a volcanic eruption.. if you will admit that it's possible that a higher power directed the aftermath of the eruption to impact the Egyptians, sparing the Isrealites.

hartsickdiscipl

Again, if indeed Moses did not write Exodus, and if it was written down by someone who heard an oral retelling of a story - keep in mind that oral storytelling was one of the principle methods of transmitting information in those days - then it is absolutely ripe for the addition of pro-Israelite embellishments over time. And one of those embellishments could obviously be framing the story to make out the fallout of the volcanic eruption to be divine retribution against the Egyptians, as prophesied by Moses. Perhaps Moses convinced Pharaoh that it was divine retribution after the fact, and the story was then altered over time to make it before the fact instead.

I don't have all of the answers, but I certainly don't think the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is that there was some sort of divine or extraterrestrial intervention. Frankly I kind of feel that immediately jumping to a conclusion like that is kind of lazy, really... no offense. I feel that the events in the Old Testament very likely were based on things that actually happened, and I feel that simply assuming that it was some otherwordly force that caused it all, and then stopping there, makes it impossible to determine just what it was that actually happened.

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

So you don't accept the evidence that suggests evolution because it's not a complete theory yet, but you accept faith, which by definition has NO evidence?

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] again not my question. im referring to us this solar system and its convient alighnment. science says ignore faith and accept evidence so show me some hint of evidence something science cannot do here and with evolution till i see a missing link i dont care if the ape is 99% like me its not that 1% is obviously one massive difference and until i see a link tieing me to the ape im not sold.Ninja-Hippo

[QUOTE="xaos"]Wow, I'm glad I dropped out of this thread, or I'd have massive cranial trauma from aggressive facedeskingMystikFollower

Hey for the most part it's been a very interesting discussion. Of course no minds were changed, but I'm staying open minded enough to absorb all this information and some of it is real food for thought. Thanks to Gabu I've learned quite a bit about evolution that I had never taken into account before.

Yes, I like the bit about the volcanic eruption from Gabu andhow it canbe thesource of the 10 plagues, that was new to me

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

As I said, in the wake of the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, people in the area were afflicted with skin diseases much like those described in Exodus. As to the hypothesis about the firstborn, it's obviously inconclusive, but it seems like an eminently viable explanation.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

But here are the most important points, IMO- If the Egyptians had seen all of these things also affecting their Isrealite slaves, why release them from bondage as a result of the plagues? The story goes that they released the Isrealites because they believe that their God had brought these plagues upon Egypt. How convincing a display by "God" would it be to bring plagues that also affect the Isrealites? What motive would Pharoah have had to release them? If these events were the result of a natural catastrophe, how were the Isrealites spared?

The idea in the story is that Moses warned Pharoah of each impending plague before it happened. Was Moses able to predict the exact aftermath and timing of this proposed volcanic eruption? If so, who gave him that knowledge?

The fact that the book of Exodus was discovered as being written in what is generally thought to be a later form of the Hebrew language doesn't preclude the possibility that it was translated from an earlier form, written by Moses himself. I have no proof of this, but then again.. these scholars have no proof or educated idea of who wrote the version written in a later Hebrew form, so it's as good a theory as any.

The fact remains- Pharoah would have no good motive to release the Isrealites unless he genuinely believed that these plagues were being brought against Egypt by the God of Moses. How could he have believed that unless the Isrealites were being spared the suffering, at least in large part?\

I'll give you this-- I can accept that it'spossiblethat the Ten Plagues were caused by a volcanic eruption.. if you will admit that it's possible that a higher power directed the aftermath of the eruption to impact the Egyptians, sparing the Isrealites.

hartsickdiscipl

Again, if indeed Moses did not write Exodus, and if it was written down by someone who heard an oral retelling of a story - keep in mind that oral storytelling was one of the principle methods of transmitting information in those days - then it is absolutely ripe for the addition of pro-Israelite embellishments over time. And one of those embellishments could obviously be framing the story to make out the fallout of the volcanic eruption to be divine retribution against the Egyptians, as prophesied by Moses. Perhaps Moses convinced Pharaoh that it was divine retribution after the fact, and the story was then altered over time to make it before the fact instead.

I don't have all of the answers, but I certainly don't think the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is that there was some sort of divine or extraterrestrial intervention. Frankly I kind of feel that immediately jumping to a conclusion like that is kind of lazy, really... no offense. I feel that the events in the Old Testament very likely were based on things that actually happened, and I feel that simply assuming that it was some otherwordly force that caused it all, and then stopping there, makes it impossible to determine just what it was that actually happened.

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

I can't in any good conscience or common sense believe that a supreme being that is capable of creating and sustaining all of existence said half the BS that is attributed to it saying in the Old Testament. God was basically given the attributes of tyrant that is quick to jealousy and will cast you into the burning fires of Hell if you don't completely obey his commands and worship it...... But he loves you :D.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] again not my question. im referring to us this solar system and its convient alighnment. science says ignore faith and accept evidence so show me some hint of evidence something science cannot do here and with evolution till i see a missing link i dont care if the ape is 99% like me its not that 1% is obviously one massive difference and until i see a link tieing me to the ape im not sold.hartsickdiscipl

I would say that they're dead primates with more similarities to modern humans than gorillas. Doesn't prove that we evolved from them.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"] The alignment is not 'convenient'. They were not placed there. They are caught in the gravitational pull of both each other and the sun. There is nothing convenient about it. There is also plenty of evidence tying you to primates. There are bones (plenty of bones, including skulls) of humans of old. If evolution is false, where did they come from? What are they?Ninja-Hippo

I would say that they're dead primates with more similarities to modern humans than gorillas. Doesn't prove that we evolved from them.

There aren't? Then we must have popped into existence.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Again, if indeed Moses did not write Exodus, and if it was written down by someone who heard an oral retelling of a story - keep in mind that oral storytelling was one of the principle methods of transmitting information in those days - then it is absolutely ripe for the addition of pro-Israelite embellishments over time. And one of those embellishments could obviously be framing the story to make out the fallout of the volcanic eruption to be divine retribution against the Egyptians, as prophesied by Moses. Perhaps Moses convinced Pharaoh that it was divine retribution after the fact, and the story was then altered over time to make it before the fact instead.

I don't have all of the answers, but I certainly don't think the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is that there was some sort of divine or extraterrestrial intervention. Frankly I kind of feel that immediately jumping to a conclusion like that is kind of lazy, really... no offense. I feel that the events in the Old Testament very likely were based on things that actually happened, and I feel that simply assuming that it was some otherwordly force that caused it all, and then stopping there, makes it impossible to determine just what it was that actually happened.

MystikFollower

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

I can't in any good conscience or common sense believe that a supreme being that is capable of creating and sustaining all of existence said half the BS that is attributed to it saying in the Old Testament. God was basically given the attributes of tyrant that is quick to jealousy and will cast you into the burning fires of Hell if you don't completely obey his commands and worship it...... But he loves you :D.

Perfect doesn't mean perfect in your eyes, or mine.

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Again, if indeed Moses did not write Exodus, and if it was written down by someone who heard an oral retelling of a story - keep in mind that oral storytelling was one of the principle methods of transmitting information in those days - then it is absolutely ripe for the addition of pro-Israelite embellishments over time. And one of those embellishments could obviously be framing the story to make out the fallout of the volcanic eruption to be divine retribution against the Egyptians, as prophesied by Moses. Perhaps Moses convinced Pharaoh that it was divine retribution after the fact, and the story was then altered over time to make it before the fact instead.

I don't have all of the answers, but I certainly don't think the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is that there was some sort of divine or extraterrestrial intervention. Frankly I kind of feel that immediately jumping to a conclusion like that is kind of lazy, really... no offense. I feel that the events in the Old Testament very likely were based on things that actually happened, and I feel that simply assuming that it was some otherwordly force that caused it all, and then stopping there, makes it impossible to determine just what it was that actually happened.

MystikFollower

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

I can't in any good conscience or common sense believe that a supreme being that is capable of creating and sustaining all of existence said half the BS that is attributed to it saying in the Old Testament. God was basically given the attributes of tyrant that is quick to jealousy and will cast you into the burning fires of Hell if you don't completely obey his commands and worship it...... But he loves you :D.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

hartsickdiscipl

I can't in any good conscience or common sense believe that a supreme being that is capable of creating and sustaining all of existence said half the BS that is attributed to it saying in the Old Testament. God was basically given the attributes of tyrant that is quick to jealousy and will cast you into the burning fires of Hell if you don't completely obey his commands and worship it...... But he loves you :D.

Perfect doesn't mean perfect in your eyes, or mine.

What where did I say perfect? What exactly are you talking about?

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

rockguy92

I can't in any good conscience or common sense believe that a supreme being that is capable of creating and sustaining all of existence said half the BS that is attributed to it saying in the Old Testament. God was basically given the attributes of tyrant that is quick to jealousy and will cast you into the burning fires of Hell if you don't completely obey his commands and worship it...... But he loves you :D.

:lol: I knew someone would get the reference :).

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] and the alignment is convient. i already said 5 times before in this thread. there is nothing stopping earth from having crashed into jupiter first or moving too fast that the sun couldnt stop it by its gravitional pull and the moon just conviently showed up. and none of the stars happened to just crash into the earth either. and this planet just happend to grow planet life and animal life at the same time because plants cannot exist without animals because we both exhale what we breathe in so one could not exist without the other for a longer period of time until you cant hold your breathe anymore. the odds against this convience are staggering and are not betting odds. i expect this to be ignored yet again.Ninja-Hippo

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

I can't in any good conscience or common sense believe that a supreme being that is capable of creating and sustaining all of existence said half the BS that is attributed to it saying in the Old Testament. God was basically given the attributes of tyrant that is quick to jealousy and will cast you into the burning fires of Hell if you don't completely obey his commands and worship it...... But he loves you :D.

MystikFollower

Perfect doesn't mean perfect in your eyes, or mine.

What where did I say perfect? What exactly are you talking about?

Your idea of justice, or my idea of it aren't necessarily going to be God's. That's what I was getting at.

if evolution is real then the planets werent here oribing the sun they had to at some point stumble onto the sun which is a whole set of variables that everyone here is apparently ignoring.kayoticdreamz

You know, the Sun isn't the only star in the universe...

Your idea of justice, or my idea of it aren't necessarily going to be God's. That's what I was getting at.

hartsickdiscipl

How so?

Do you not follow "his" "teachings"?

You don't think that, despite the repeated references to, and credit given God throughout the Old Testament, that the most logical explanation is that these people were in contact with some type of higher power? Whether it be E.T.s from other worlds, or the traditional picture that's painted of God? You're willing to assume quite a bit about how the Old testament, and specifically the Exodus story was manipulated to look a certain way, rather than accept that it was that way. That's an assumption.

hartsickdiscipl

It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion about what I read and applying what I know to what I read. God is described as a "pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night" (Exodus 13:21). And "Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire." (Exodus 19:18 ) And Moses goes up that mountain, which is covered in smoke and fire, to meet him face to face, and the mountain itself is described as holy. (Exodus 19:23)

I mean if I didn't know any better, I'd think that the Israelites were worshiping, well... a volcano.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] and the alignment is convient. i already said 5 times before in this thread. there is nothing stopping earth from having crashed into jupiter first or moving too fast that the sun couldnt stop it by its gravitional pull and the moon just conviently showed up. and none of the stars happened to just crash into the earth either. and this planet just happend to grow planet life and animal life at the same time because plants cannot exist without animals because we both exhale what we breathe in so one could not exist without the other for a longer period of time until you cant hold your breathe anymore. the odds against this convience are staggering and are not betting odds. i expect this to be ignored yet again.kayoticdreamz

Um no it doesn't. :| My friend I think you need to read up on your evolution and astronomy. Billions of years of gradual formation gave birth to the planets of our solar system. The sun formed, the planets formed from the remnants, and gravity is what keeps all their orbits. What does that have to do with evolution being real or not?

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]I whole heartdly agree with everything you said there except that I don't remember bringing up evolution theory. :lol: N30F3N1X

Evolution is not a concept limited to life. Life is simply the closest example of evolution that we as humans can grasp on.

The evolution of the universe is what I assumed you were talking about, since you said "made the universe and earth movement".

I'm not a Ph.D in physics and only read astronomy stuff when I'm too tired to play games or I'm at school during computer science lessons in lab, so take this with a bit of salt, but here it goes.

Planets are chunks of matter that failed to become stars by not reaching the critical mass needed to trigger thermonuclear fusion, and in time (a LONG time), cooled off. They weren't just "made".

The "movement" in case of planets is an effect of gravity. If the spinning around itself and around the star is not quick enough, the planet will fall into it.

The "movement" in case of bigger astronomical bodies is the effect of the "bang" in the "Big Bang" theory.

Although my knowledge in astronomy is lacking but I believe I never mentioned anything about how planets were made. All I said that a greater power has made them. Whether that power has collected gasses and put them together and they failed to turn into stars and became planets or they weren't failed stars is completely irrelevant. The point is, someone, some greater power did. Wind movement? There's a reason for that. Tides? You have a reason for that also... stars are formed of gasses? You also have a reason for that.

[QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"][QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] and the alignment is convient. i already said 5 times before in this thread. there is nothing stopping earth from having crashed into jupiter first or moving too fast that the sun couldnt stop it by its gravitional pull and the moon just conviently showed up. and none of the stars happened to just crash into the earth either. and this planet just happend to grow planet life and animal life at the same time because plants cannot exist without animals because we both exhale what we breathe in so one could not exist without the other for a longer period of time until you cant hold your breathe anymore. the odds against this convience are staggering and are not betting odds. i expect this to be ignored yet again.kayoticdreamz

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"][QUOTE="Ninja-Hippo"] There's nothing stopping earth crashing into jupiter? Yes there is. It didn't happen that way. :? That's like saying 'there's nothing stopping lightning striking you down dead right now!' as if that proves anything. The sun is an absolutely enormous nuclear reactor with an immense gravitational pull. The earth would have to be moving *vastly* faster than you can imagine to just blast straight past it. Further, the earth was not one day moving through space and then stopped by the sun. All of the planets were one day just huge rocks. It is through their orbit and BILLIONS of years that they became planets.MystikFollower

Um no it doesn't. :| My friend I think you need to read up on your evolution and astronomy. Billions of years of gradual formation gave birth to the planets of our solar system. The sun formed, the planets formed from the remnants, and gravity is what keeps all their orbits. What does that have to do with evolution being real or not?

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="hartsickdiscipl"]

Perfect doesn't mean perfect in your eyes, or mine.

hartsickdiscipl

What where did I say perfect? What exactly are you talking about?

Your idea of justice, or my idea of it aren't necessarily going to be God's. That's what I was getting at.

But our entire moral system is based off of what God apparently SAID is his commandments. We've based most our legal systems off of moral and justice ideas that were originally attributed to God. Did God not write the commandments now? And that still has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I'm saying the God described in the Old Testament has the qualities that would be given to a totalitarian dictator, and not a loving creator. Much of what is supposedly said by God in the Old Testament runs completely parallel to the God that theists describe to me.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] if evolution is real then the planets werent here oribing the sun they had to at some point stumble onto the sun which is a whole set of variables that everyone here is apparently ignoring.kayoticdreamz

Um no it doesn't. :| My friend I think you need to read up on your evolution and astronomy. Billions of years of gradual formation gave birth to the planets of our solar system. The sun formed, the planets formed from the remnants, and gravity is what keeps all their orbits. What does that have to do with evolution being real or not?

Um, the laws of nature stopped them from crashing, just as the laws of nature allow them to orbit the sun. If the initial conditions were different and they did crash into each other, then we wouldn't be here to talk about it.

Go outside sometime at night. Put the index fingers on each hand against the thumb of the other hand, to make a viewing rectangle. Now hold it out at arms' length and look through it at the sky. Now appreciate the fact that, in the distance, contained within that viewing rectangle, there are a hundred million galaxies just like ours. In that one tiny little section of the sky.

The existence of a galaxy like ours is not exactly statistically unfeasible, when you consider this fact.

Although my knowledge in astronomy is lacking but I believe I never mentioned anything about how planets were made. All I said that a greater power has made them. Whether that power has collected gasses and put them together and they failed to turn into stars and became planets or they weren't failed stars is completely irrelevant. The point is, someone, some greater power did. Wind movement? There's a reason for that. Tides? You have a reason for that also... stars are formed of gasses? You also have a reason for that.

gamingqueen

Yes, you could say that.

The church did for almost two millennia.

Look how much progress humanity had since Galileo.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] if evolution is real then the planets werent here oribing the sun they had to at some point stumble onto the sun which is a whole set of variables that everyone here is apparently ignoring.kayoticdreamz

Um no it doesn't. :| My friend I think you need to read up on your evolution and astronomy. Billions of years of gradual formation gave birth to the planets of our solar system. The sun formed, the planets formed from the remnants, and gravity is what keeps all their orbits. What does that have to do with evolution being real or not?

No, after the Sun was born, the solar system was still a massive cloud of dust, rocks, and particles that over the course of billions of years began to clump together at different points and eventually became planets. The fact that just one happened to fall into the habitable zone is not evidence that it was intelligently put there. Probability suggests that somewhere in the Universe that was going to happen. It's probably happened in quite a few solar systems, and within a few years we will likely discover the first earthlike planets outside our solar system. I look forward to that discovery as it will show that life may actually be FAR more common in the Universe than previously thought. But yes, in the case of our planet's placement in the solar system, and the moon's formation (which life wouldn't be possible here without the moon) it could very well have just been luck of the draw.

You know these kinds of discussions are only really viable when you remove the concept of time from the equation. Otherwise you're chasing each other's tails, in a big circle.musicalmac

Isn't that what forums are all about :P ?

You know these kinds of discussions are only really viable when you remove the concept of time from the equation. Otherwise you're chasing each other's tails, in a big circle.musicalmac

Well if science eventually finds that Time in and of itself actually doesn't exist (as many theories are starting to suggest) then time will easily be removed from the equation :P.

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Although my knowledge in astronomy is lacking but I believe I never mentioned anything about how planets were made. All I said that a greater power has made them. Whether that power has collected gasses and put them together and they failed to turn into stars and became planets or they weren't failed stars is completely irrelevant. The point is, someone, some greater power did. Wind movement? There's a reason for that. Tides? You have a reason for that also... stars are formed of gasses? You also have a reason for that.

N30F3N1X

Yes, you could say that.

The church did for almost two millennia.

Look how much progress humanity had since Galileo.

Remember, a chair can't be made by itself and so does the universe.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] what i quoted. the planets just conviently lining up correctly. what stopped earth from crashing into jupiter? why wasnt earth moving at such an insane speed that the suns pull couldnt stop it? the moon just happend to come along convinently? all this out of some odd explosion? basically evolution has a half baked explanation of life so if that is true tell me about the planets the moon and sun at the very least are required for life. and all the other planets what stopped them from crashing into each other i mean if everything just sort of exploded did they go boom solar system formed? sorry i cant buy that coincidental of an answer so yes explain pleasekayoticdreamz

If you think about it though in terms of probability, the fact that the Universe is so unfathomably vast and filled with nearly endless stars and galaxies suggest that eventually somewhere, a planet was bound to form that would be in just the right conditions and position to support life. It doesn't necessarily mean at all that it was created and put there by an intelligent designer.

Your first statement makes no sense. It could have happened anywhere. It just happened to occur here.

You fail for ignoring all other previous hominids.

Remember, a chair can't be made by itself and sodoes the universe.

gamingqueen

It doesn't matter.

My point is that we shouldn't care about god. It offers no concrete answers. It doesn't do humanity good in any way.

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Although my knowledge in astronomy is lacking but I believe I never mentioned anything about how planets were made. All I said that a greater power has made them. Whether that power has collected gasses and put them together and they failed to turn into stars and became planets or they weren't failed stars is completely irrelevant. The point is, someone, some greater power did. Wind movement? There's a reason for that. Tides? You have a reason for that also... stars are formed of gasses? You also have a reason for that.

gamingqueen

Yes, you could say that.

The church did for almost two millennia.

Look how much progress humanity had since Galileo.

Remember, a chair can't be made by itself and so does the universe.

False dichotomy. The universe can happen the way it did with no help according to the laws of physics.

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Remember, a chair can't be made by itself and sodoes the universe.

N30F3N1X

It doesn't matter.

My point is that we shouldn't care about god. It offers no concrete answers. It doesn't do humanity good in any way.

That's a good point. Even if God exists and is waiting for us when we die, he isn't here intervening in the world's affairs. All we really have is each other, which is what Jesus preached for us to focus our lives on. Loving each other and helping each other, and giving thanks and love to the creator for allowing existence to be. God is letting the world play out as it will, so instead of focusing all of our attention on things that are not going to intervene in any of the natural laws of the Universe or our personal choices, we should focus on each other and helping our society advance. If God is there, he will always be there, so we don't need to have the answers or make our lives about finding the answers (which I'm still very guilty of even now), we need to make our lives about being joyful and helping others.

If I were going to play along with this thread (which I'm about to do :P ), I'd cite a couple things-

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

I'll stop there for now. Thoughts?

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

[QUOTE="N30F3N1X"]

Yes, you could say that.

The church did for almost two millennia.

Look how much progress humanity had since Galileo.

laughingman42

Remember, a chair can't be made by itself and so does the universe.

False dichotomy. The universe can happen the way it did with no help according to the laws of physics.

No it doesn't say that. Laws of physics give explanation for everything and none of those explanations is " by coincidence". There's an action and a doer.

By that logic, you admit that a chair can be made by itself.

If I were going to play along with this thread (which I'm about to do :P ), I'd cite a couple things-

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

I'll stop there for now. Thoughts?

musicalmac

1. Given the immense vastness (possibly infinite vastness) of the Universe, it would suggest that somewhere, sometime, that exact thing was bound to happen. I wont do the math cause that many 0s would make my head explode, but it's still a possibility, and given the fact that we are here, a certain reality.

2. The hard problem of consciousness. Why do we have a subjective "I" experience. As to that, I can only speculate as much as neurologists and biologists who really can't answer it. One idea I've heard though is that Consciousness is fundamental to nature and arises in all the form and laws of nature that we observe, including us. The theory suggests that there is only One consciousness, and that we each experience our own subjective "I" experience due to that one consciousness percolating through us and being transmitted through the brain.

[QUOTE="kayoticdreamz"] if evolution is real then the planets werent here oribing the sun they had to at some point stumble onto the sun which is a whole set of variables that everyone here is apparently ignoring.mfp16

Trust me it wasn't....

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

musicalmac

Well, first, this comes back to what I said about the size of the universe. In any given tiny patch of sky, there are probably hundreds of millions of galaxies in that direction. The chances of one coming up that supports life doesn't seem so slim given that fact.

But then there's also the question: is the Earth designed to support life, or did life evolve based on what the Earth could support? When we pour water into a glass, we don't then marvel at how perfect the shape of the glass is to at accommodating the shape of the water.

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

musicalmac

Well it seems to me that a species that murders its own kind is one that is pretty much doomed to the trash bin of history, so there seems to me to be a rather strong evolutionary benefit to finding murder to be wrong. :P

[QUOTE="musicalmac"]

If I were going to play along with this thread (which I'm about to do :P ), I'd cite a couple things-

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

I'll stop there for now. Thoughts?

MystikFollower

1. Given the immense vastness (possibly infinite vastness) of the Universe suggests that somewhere, sometime, that exact thing was bound to happen. I wont do the math cause that many 0s would make my head explode, but it's still a possibility, and given the fact that we are here, a certain reality.

2. The hard problem of consciousness. Why do we have a subjective "I" experience. As to that, I can only speculate as much as neurologists and biologists who really can't answer it. One idea I've heard though is that Consciousness is fundamental to nature and arises in all the form and laws of nature that we observe, including us. The theory suggests that there is only One consciousness, and that we each experience our own subjective "I" experience due to that one consciousness percolating through us and being transmitted through the brain.

Valiant efforts on both accounts, sir (and same to you, Gabu). The real answer is- there is no answer, those are both loaded questions. Nobody has those answers, they are both beyond our ability to scientifically prove. All we can do is theorize, and accept the fact that right now, there are questions we just cannot answer.

This is but one of the many reasons so many choose to believe in a higher power. Scientifically, we cannot prove either way about the existence of a higher power, a supreme being, an all-seeing and all-knowing force. We can't even provide evidence that there is a watch-maker out there, who got us started, and set the whole lot in motion. :P

Again, I need to stress, this is but one of the reasons people would believe in a higher power. It's foolish to dismiss the beliefs of another, especially if you base it on your own personal experience.

If I were going to play along with this thread (which I'm about to do :P ), I'd cite a couple things-

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

I'll stop there for now. Thoughts?

musicalmac

1. Very unlikely, but if it didn't happen here it would happen somewhere else, at some point in time at least.

2. Because It's not possible to have a brain and not have conciences. Our brain create our conscience, which dies when we do.

No it doesn't say that. Laws of physics give explanation for everything and none of those explanations is " by coincidence". There's an action and a doer.

By that logic, you admit that a chair can be made by itself.

gamingqueen

By that logic, you assume every complex formation of atoms has to have a concious creator.

Valiant efforts on both accounts, sir (and same to you, Gabu). The real answer is- there is no answer, those are both loaded questions. Nobody has those answers, they are both beyond our ability to scientifically prove. All we can do is theorize, and accept the fact that right now, there are questions we just cannot answer.

This is but one of the many reasons so many choose to believe in a higher power. Scientifically, we cannot prove either way about the existence of a higher power, a supreme being, an all-seeing and all-knowing force. We can't even provide evidence that there is a watch-maker out there, who got us started, and set the whole lot in motion. :P

Again, I need to stress, this is but one of the reasons people would believe in a higher power. It's foolish to dismiss the beliefs of another, especially if you base it on your own personal experience.

musicalmac

Who in here is dismissing the beliefs of another?