a scientific proof that GOD existes ... ( long read )...

If I were going to play along with this thread (which I'm about to do :P ), I'd cite a couple things-

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

I'll stop there for now. Thoughts?

musicalmac

1. Statistics are ridiculously easily manipulated. You could say the same thing about any spec of dust floating around in space. (at least when you don't take physics into account) Example: throw a random set of stones on the ground. There are litterally an infinite number of positions that the stones could end up in so it would seemingly be impossible that the stones end up in one particular position and yet the end up stopping somewhere do they not? Also you make the assumption that these exact conditions are the only possible conditions that life could form which is almost certainly not true.

2. Consciousness actually has an insanely huge evolutionary benifit. It allows us to think critically and discover things that no other organisms can. "Right and Wrong" benifits us by allowing to function as a collective organized society without falling into chaos.

Nothing is random. Everything is based on math (even if it is seemingly impossible to calculate)

Who in here is dismissing the beliefs of another?

GabuEx

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Remember, a chair can't be made by itself and so does the universe.

gamingqueen

False dichotomy. The universe can happen the way it did with no help according to the laws of physics.

No it doesn't say that. Laws of physics give explanation for everything and none of those explanations is " by coincidence". There's an action and a doer.

By that logic, you admit that a chair can be made by itself.

Coincidence is a myth. Everything has a related cause at somepoint at time, and yes the universe did make the chair through humans.

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

No it doesn't say that. Laws of physics give explanation for everything and none of those explanations is " by coincidence". There's an action and a doer.

By that logic, you admit that a chair can be made by itself.

metroidfood

By that logic, you assume every complex formation of atoms has to have a concious creator.

Creator, cause, a reason... A chair can't be made by itself. Something triggerd something, something made something else...

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Who in here is dismissing the beliefs of another?

musicalmac

So you're more or less trolling...? :P

If I were going to play along with this thread (which I'm about to do :P ), I'd cite a couple things-

1. The distance, angle, and rotation of our Earth around the sun is so perfect, life thrives. Anyone want to do the math on the chances of all those factors lining up like that? (Don't try, numbers to the sun and back, a near infinite number of times)

2. Why do we have a conscious? Speaking in strictly evolutionary terms, survival of the fittest and all that, how does the choice between 'right and wrong' benefit us in way? (Whether or not you agree on what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' is irrelevant, we all do exercise the power we have to make choices)

I'll stop there for now. Thoughts?

Creator, cause, a reason... A chair can't be made by itself. Something triggerd something, something made something else...

gamingqueen

Exactly. What makes you think god is part of that trigger? Or "reason"?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Who in here is dismissing the beliefs of another?

musicalmac

I just gave the best answer I could based on what I think to be true and what I understand. I'm likely completely wrong or at least inaccurate, but we all are. Your point was gold, these questions have no true answer. Either we'll know when we die, or we'll slip peacefully into nonexistence. Either way is fine honestly. Death doesn't bother me in the slightest, even if there is nothing. It's just the whole dying part that irks me. There are way to many horrifically painful ways to die lol.

So you're more or less trolling...? :P

GabuEx

*facepalm*

Threads like these remind why the religious threads fail so much.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

So you're more or less trolling...? :P

musicalmac

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Creator, cause, a reason... A chair can't be made by itself. Something triggerd something, something made something else...

bloodling

Exactly. What makes you think god is part of that trigger? Or "reason"?

Let me see, I used god, power, force, greater power and greater force and I said whether religions nowadays call to believe in that force or not is different subject thus your post is irrelevant. That god could be force, power or anything else.

I just gave the best answer I could based on what I think to be true and what I understand. I'm likely completely wrong or at least inaccurate, but we all are. Your point was gold, these questions have no true answer. Either we'll know when we die, or we'll slip peacefully into nonexistence. Either way is fine honestly. Death doesn't bother me in the slightest, even if there is nothing. It's just the whole dying part that irks me. There are way to many horrifically painful ways to die lol.

MystikFollower

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

So you're more or less trolling...? :P

musicalmac

Careful, you may be inadvertently giving everyone a new defense against trolling in Ask the Mods. :P

"I wasn't trolling! His subjective interpretation of the semantic meaning of my words made it so!"

Valiant efforts on both accounts, sir (and same to you, Gabu). The real answer is- there is no answer, those are both loaded questions. Nobody has those answers, they are both beyond our ability to scientifically prove. All we can do is theorize, and accept the fact that right now, there are questions we just cannot answer.

This is but one of the many reasons so many choose to believe in a higher power. Scientifically, we cannot prove either way about the existence of a higher power, a supreme being, an all-seeing and all-knowing force. We can't even provide evidence that there is a watch-maker out there, who got us started, and set the whole lot in motion. :P

Again, I need to stress, this is but one of the reasons people would believe in a higher power. It's foolish to dismiss the beliefs of another, especially if you base it on your own personal experience.

musicalmac

Only the first question was loaded and that is because it doesn't take into account outside factors (which I explained in my answer) and the second question isn't loaded at all. It's easily explained (again check my answer)

Only the first question was loaded and that is because it doesn't take into account outside factors (which I explained in my answer) and the second question isn't loaded at all. It's easily explained (again check my answer)

laughingman42

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="gamingqueen"]

Creator, cause, a reason... A chair can't be made by itself. Something triggerd something, something made something else...

gamingqueen

Exactly. What makes you think god is part of that trigger? Or "reason"?

Let me see, I used god, power, force, greater power and greater force and I said whether religions nowadays call to believe in that force or not is different subject thus your post is irrelevant. That god could be force, power or anything else.

That's not what I call a god. That's not how most atheists call it either.

In any event, i think we need to re-think what 'proof' means. :PNinja-Hippo

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

- The Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

Only the first question was loaded and that is because it doesn't take into account outside factors (which I explained in my answer) and the second question isn't loaded at all. It's easily explained (again check my answer)

musicalmac

The first question is not deep because it really isn't a valid question, and I'm not sure why you think that the second question is deep. The answer really is that simple. Concepts of right and wrong help bring order to society (scientifically proven) which lets the species thrive through cooperation (again scientifically proven)

"A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven."

- The Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien

GabuEx

That surely is a proof-proof statement :?

[QUOTE="musicalmac"]

Valiant efforts on both accounts, sir (and same to you, Gabu). The real answer is- there is no answer, those are both loaded questions. Nobody has those answers, they are both beyond our ability to scientifically prove. All we can do is theorize, and accept the fact that right now, there are questions we just cannot answer.

This is but one of the many reasons so many choose to believe in a higher power. Scientifically, we cannot prove either way about the existence of a higher power, a supreme being, an all-seeing and all-knowing force. We can't even provide evidence that there is a watch-maker out there, who got us started, and set the whole lot in motion. :P

Again, I need to stress, this is but one of the reasons people would believe in a higher power. It's foolish to dismiss the beliefs of another, especially if you base it on your own personal experience.

laughingman42

Only the first question was loaded and that is because it doesn't take into account outside factors (which I explained in my answer) and the second question isn't loaded at all. It's easily explained (again check my answer)

My friend, are you familiar with the hard problem of consciousness? Cause to date, scientists are really no closer than they were years ago to solving it. If you have some source or new information that suggests otherwise please share, cause I've been eagerly awaiting the day neurologists announce they've discovered what gives us subjective experience.

EDIT: In hindsight I slightly misread the second question, but I still believe it applies to the hard problem of consciousness since our subjective experience gives rise to our sense of morality among other things.

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="musicalmac"]

Valiant efforts on both accounts, sir (and same to you, Gabu). The real answer is- there is no answer, those are both loaded questions. Nobody has those answers, they are both beyond our ability to scientifically prove. All we can do is theorize, and accept the fact that right now, there are questions we just cannot answer.

This is but one of the many reasons so many choose to believe in a higher power. Scientifically, we cannot prove either way about the existence of a higher power, a supreme being, an all-seeing and all-knowing force. We can't even provide evidence that there is a watch-maker out there, who got us started, and set the whole lot in motion. :P

Again, I need to stress, this is but one of the reasons people would believe in a higher power. It's foolish to dismiss the beliefs of another, especially if you base it on your own personal experience.

MystikFollower

Only the first question was loaded and that is because it doesn't take into account outside factors (which I explained in my answer) and the second question isn't loaded at all. It's easily explained (again check my answer)

My friend, are you familiar with the hard problem of consciousness? Cause to date, scientists are really no closer than they were years ago to solving it. If you have some source or new information that suggests otherwise please share, cause I've been eagerly awaiting the day neurologists announce they've discovered what gives us subjective experience.

EDIT: In hindsight I slightly misread the second question, but I still believe it applies to the hard problem of consciousness since our subjective experience gives rise to our sense of morality among other things.

He asked why it is benificial not how it happened. There is a huge difference.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

Only the first question was loaded and that is because it doesn't take into account outside factors (which I explained in my answer) and the second question isn't loaded at all. It's easily explained (again check my answer)

laughingman42

My friend, are you familiar with the hard problem of consciousness? Cause to date, scientists are really no closer than they were years ago to solving it. If you have some source or new information that suggests otherwise please share, cause I've been eagerly awaiting the day neurologists announce they've discovered what gives us subjective experience.

EDIT: In hindsight I slightly misread the second question, but I still believe it applies to the hard problem of consciousness since our subjective experience gives rise to our sense of morality among other things.

He asked why it is benificial not how it happened. There is a huge difference.

Well it's beneficial for the stability of civilized society to maintain itself of course. As I said I misread the question originally and thought it referred to consciousness not the conscience.

[QUOTE="laughingman42"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

My friend, are you familiar with the hard problem of consciousness? Cause to date, scientists are really no closer than they were years ago to solving it. If you have some source or new information that suggests otherwise please share, cause I've been eagerly awaiting the day neurologists announce they've discovered what gives us subjective experience.

EDIT: In hindsight I slightly misread the second question, but I still believe it applies to the hard problem of consciousness since our subjective experience gives rise to our sense of morality among other things.

MystikFollower

He asked why it is benificial not how it happened. There is a huge difference.

Well it's beneficial for the stability of civilized society to maintain itself of course. As I said I misread the question originally and thought it referred to consciousness not the conscience.

Well it's beneficial for the stability of civilized society to maintain itself of course. As I said I misread the question originally and thought it referred to consciousness not the conscience.

MystikFollower

Your answer to laughingman42 is still valid. There is no simple answer to my question. I regret posing it, I didn't know it would get such vehement and absolute responses. :P

The heart of the issue regarding the human conscious usually turns into a discussion of the id, and that leads down an ugly path.

When we die, our conscience dies. When our conscience is dead, we are the same as we were before we were born. Which means we will be born again eventually (as a human hopefully).

When we die, our conscience dies.

bloodling

Assuming you mean "consciousness", do we even know what it is, let alone what happens to it when our physical body ceases to function?

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

When we die, our conscience dies.

GabuEx

Assuming you mean "consciousness", do we even know what it is, let alone what happens to it when our physical body ceases to function?

Absolutely, but you won't be able to think with the same mental capabilities with it, that's for sure.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

When we die, our conscience dies.

bloodling

Assuming you mean "consciousness", do we even know what it is, let alone what happens to it when our physical body ceases to function?

Absolutely, but you won't be able to think with the same mental capabilities with it, that's for sure.

If we don't know what consciousness is, then how do we know that?

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

When we die, our conscience dies.

GabuEx

Assuming you mean "consciousness", do we even know what it is, let alone what happens to it when our physical body ceases to function?

One of two possibilities. It's either arisen from processes in the brain, which scientists can't figure out how that would be possible, or it's an awareness that permeates all existence and which the brain transmits into conscious "I" experience. Both ideas have pretty solid theories behind them but at this point neither can be proven or disproved. I think that solving the Hard problem however is going to be a major step in either proving the existence of an immaterial consciousness (soul), or proving that everything that we experience through our consciousness is simply the result of chemical processes.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Well it's beneficial for the stability of civilized society to maintain itself of course. As I said I misread the question originally and thought it referred to consciousness not the conscience.

musicalmac

Your answer to laughingman42 is still valid. There is no simple answer to my question. I regret posing it, I didn't know it would get such vehement and absolute responses. :P

The heart of the issue regarding the human conscious usually turns into a discussion of the id, and that leads down an ugly path.

Now you are going into how it works not why it is benificial (which I will admit does not have a simple answer) but the why it is benificail has already been shown.

If we don't know what consciousness is, then how do we know that?

GabuEx

Because a consciousness needs a brain to think.

Now you are going into how it works not why it is benificial (which I will admit does not have a simple answer) but the why it is benificail has already been shown.

laughingman42

If we don't know what consciousness is, then how do we know that?

GabuEx

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

If we don't know what consciousness is, then how do we know that?

bloodling

Because a consciousness needs a brain to think.

Or is a brain simply a vessel by which the thoughts of a consciousness may be transferred into physical effects?

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

If we don't know what consciousness is, then how do we know that?

xaos

I feel like a thread that started off trying to prove God's existence with pseudo-science and misinterpretations needs a picture like this:

Creationists:

Or is a brain simply a vessel by which the thoughts of a consciousness may be transferred into physical effects?

GabuEx

The brain is the vessel, the neurons and other stuff create thoughts, consciousness is only a concept.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Or is a brain simply a vessel by which the thoughts of a consciousness may be transferred into physical effects?

bloodling

The brain is the vessel, the neurons and other stuff create thoughts, consciousness is only a concept.

So if you created an identical human with an identical brain, would the person perceive himself as being conscious in two bodies at the same time?

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Or is a brain simply a vessel by which the thoughts of a consciousness may be transferred into physical effects?

GabuEx

The brain is the vessel, the neurons and other stuff create thoughts, consciousness is only a concept.

So if you created an identical human with an identical brain, would the person perceive himself as being conscious in two bodies at the same time?

No, for that exact reason, it's a concept.

No, for that exact reason, it's a concept.

bloodling

It's a concept that I perceive myself as existing within or as a body?

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

No, for that exact reason, it's a concept.

GabuEx

It's a concept that I perceive myself as existing within or as a body?

No, the word consciousness is a concept. What is it? It's really vague.

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

No, for that exact reason, it's a concept.

bloodling

It's a concept that I perceive myself as existing within or as a body?

No, the word consciousness is a concept. What is it? It's really vague.

Consciousness as I understand it is the self awareness behind all thought that we normally identify ourselves with. It's not the thoughts or chemical emotions in the brain, it's the self awareness behind all thoughts. It's the space in which thoughts can be experienced. If you'll notice when you become aware of your thinking, you are having thoughts, but you are also experiencing and aware that you're having thoughts. That's what I see consciousness as.

Well, I'd say you can see it in 2 ways: the overall result of our brain's process and what you said.

[QUOTE="bloodling"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Or is a brain simply a vessel by which the thoughts of a consciousness may be transferred into physical effects?

GabuEx

The brain is the vessel, the neurons and other stuff create thoughts, consciousness is only a concept.

So if you created an identical human with an identical brain, would the person perceive himself as being conscious in two bodies at the same time?

[QUOTE="ZCatan"] All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. In other words, all have sinned, including you and me. Our sin separates us from God, because He is sinless and cannot be in the presence of sin. If you die a sinner, then you will forever remain separated from God. But, if you put your faith and trust solely in God's promised sacrifice for sin, Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty for your sins at the cross, then all your sins will be wiped clean, past, present, and future, and you will live forever with God in Heaven.N30F3N1X

Define "sin".

we are all doomed, so now all you need to do is trust in Him alone as your personal Savior, and you will be permanently saved.ZCatan

You sound very convinced.

[QUOTE="ZCatan"]we are all doomed, so now all you need to do is trust in Him alone as your personal Savior, and you will be permanently saved.bloodling

You sound very convinced.

haha you took parts from two different sentences and meshed them into one so that it sounded funny. But seriously, I am convinced, because God has proven Himself to me over and over again. But the main question is, are you convinced, bloodling?ZCatan

No, but I am curious, what is this proof?