A smart thread for smart people...

Hypothetical:

I gather every single human on the planet, and I hold up a red marker. I say to the people: "This is a blue marker". Every single person responds by saying, "Yes. I agree that that is a blue marker."

Is the marker red or blue?

Now, I see lots of flaws in this question...but instead of adressing them all right now, I'd like you all to discuss the content of the question and the meaning behind it.

This is a discussion forum after all. I can't hold your hands forever.

Think about it before you answer. Bring up other questions or feelings.

Begin.

Wouldn't that depend on whether they believed it was blue or were just going along with you?LJS9502_basic

Blue and red are just words.

Words can change meaning, Gay used to mean happy but now it means homosexual.

The names that we give colors are socially constructed. So if every person really decided that "red" were to become "blue", then it would be so. *sits with legs crossed and hands folded in lap*fidosim

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Wouldn't that depend on whether they believed it was blue or were just going along with you?FragStains

Reality is what it is and isn't changed by our perception of it, so I don't think that the marker would change from red to blue just because everyone says it is blue.rragnaar

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Reality is what it is and isn't changed by our perception of it, so I don't think that the marker would change from red to blue just because everyone says it is blue.FragStains

[QUOTE="FragStains"][QUOTE="rragnaar"]Reality is what it is and isn't changed by our perception of it, so I don't think that the marker would change from red to blue just because everyone says it is blue.rragnaar

All you are doing is changing the label of the color. The color itself is not different, just the label.

Is the marker you're holding up actually red?

[QUOTE="rragnaar"][QUOTE="FragStains"]But if everyone perceives something the same way, can that not be accepted as fact? FragStains

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Reality is what it is and isn't changed by our perception of it, so I don't think that the marker would change from red to blue just because everyone says it is blue.FragStains

All you are doing is changing the label of the color. The color itself is not different, just the label.

VisigothSaxon

Is the marker you're holding up actually red?

Atmanix

[QUOTE="Atmanix"]

Is the marker you're holding up actually red?

FragStains

Right. I was just making sure the color of the marker you're holding is actually red.

Did you choose "marker" over pen or crayon on purpose? Or could either of those be substituted?

Important question...are these people suddenly deciding that EVERYTHING red is now blue? Or are they ONLY talking about that particular marker?

In other words, have people changed the DEFINITION of "blue"? Or have they simply said that the marker is blue when it's clearly not?

Important question...are these people suddenly deciding that EVERYTHING red is now blue? Or are they ONLY talking about that particular marker?

In other words, have people changed the DEFINITION of "blue"? Or have they simply said that the marker is blue when it's clearly not?

MrGeezer

[QUOTE="rragnaar"][QUOTE="FragStains"]But if everyone perceives something the same way, can that not be accepted as fact? FragStains

something false believed in your head does not make it true, no matter how much it influences your life.

a person with voices in his head is told to kill someone; the voices are true enough to him, but we do not pardon him of his crimes
billions of people believing in God does not make god truely exist
and a red marker will always be red

Important question...are these people suddenly deciding that EVERYTHING red is now blue? Or are they ONLY talking about that particular marker?

In other words, have people changed the DEFINITION of "blue"? Or have they simply said that the marker is blue when it's clearly not?

MrGeezer

something false believed in your head does not make it true, no matter how much it influences your life.

a person with voices in his head is told to kill someone; the voices are true enough to him, but we do not pardon him of his crimes
billions of people believing in God does not make god truely exist
and a red marker will always be red

mrbojangles25

[QUOTE="Atmanix"]

Is the marker you're holding up actually red?

FragStains

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Important question...are these people suddenly deciding that EVERYTHING red is now blue? Or are they ONLY talking about that particular marker?

In other words, have people changed the DEFINITION of "blue"? Or have they simply said that the marker is blue when it's clearly not?

FragStains

[QUOTE="FragStains"][QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Important question...are these people suddenly deciding that EVERYTHING red is now blue? Or are they ONLY talking about that particular marker?

In other words, have people changed the DEFINITION of "blue"? Or have they simply said that the marker is blue when it's clearly not?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="FragStains"][QUOTE="Atmanix"]

Is the marker you're holding up actually red?

racer8dan

it's blue. the colors "blue" and "red" are only called that because that's what we decided to call them. we could have just as easily called "blue", "red" and "red", "blue". right?

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

something false believed in your head does not make it true, no matter how much it influences your life.

a person with voices in his head is told to kill someone; the voices are true enough to him, but we do not pardon him of his crimes
billions of people believing in God does not make god truely exist
and a red marker will always be red

FragStains

Sure, andI might tell people fire wont burn them, but it does not change the fact that it will still burn the **** out of them.

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]

Important question...are these people suddenly deciding that EVERYTHING red is now blue? Or are they ONLY talking about that particular marker?

In other words, have people changed the DEFINITION of "blue"? Or have they simply said that the marker is blue when it's clearly not?

FragStains

Yes, I got that, but that doesn't answer my question.

Are they ONLY saying that the red marker is now blue, are are they now saying that RED ITSELF is now blue?

That's a very important distinction. If these people are saying that ALL things red shall now be called "blue", then they would be right. That works, that's merely changing the definition of "blue".

However, if they are ONLY talking about the marker, then they'd be wrong. As long as cherries and coca-cola cans and red crayons are still considered to be "red", then no color definitions have changed. And in that case, calling a red marker blue would be going against still-standing definitions. Which means that the people are wrong, even if everyone on the planet agrees.

IT IS RED. But we all say it's....FragStains

For me, this is as far as anyone need go when it comes to answering the question.

I know this thread is supposed to be for smart people only, but I'm gonna go ahead and post in it anyway. :P

As far as your question goes...that depends if you define reality based on a shared perception among people or by some sort of greater truth. I've had this same sort of discussion with various people before as it pertains to morality - the question being: is morality determined by what society deems moral or is it determined by some sort of a higher ethical code (that possibly exceeds human understanding)? In both cases - the color of the pen and what is truly "right" and "wrong" - I believe in a higher truth, and that people's perceptions or misperceptions have little to no effect on what's actual real. I mean, how long did people think the world was flat? That used to just be conventional logic. But that didn't make it true. In my opinion, the world is not defined by our perception of it. The world would still exist even if there were nobody there to interpret it. As far as I'm concerned, if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around, it does make a sound. And if everyone agrees that a red marker is blue, it's still red.

/inb4lolurdumandusukgetalifeloozr

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="FragStains"]We all said the red markers are blue.FragStains

Colors are reflected light and registered by our eyes. Color only exists in the minds of humans; everything consists of many colors, but we only see one. What's more, the words "red" and "blue" are simply words; what we call "red" can just as easily be called "blue," with no meaning changed. Therefore, the marker is every color of the spectrum.Theokhoth

its been a while since I had a class explaining this, but are not colors scientifically categorized in a certain way?

Doesnt the color red reflect at a certain wavelength, and the color green at another? Isnt white the reflection of all colors, and black the reflection of none?

So no, color is not subjective, and they are not just words without real meaning. There is actual real-world physics behind it, and the science has been documented and labels (i.e. red, blue, green) applied to it.

So in 1000 years when the world is run by the Church of Frag, and His children call red markers blue and all kinds of other nonsense, a usurper from the Cult of Bojangles will come forth with an ancient, dusty tome of science and proclaim the ultimate truth! Red is RED! And this is why!

[QUOTE="racer8dan"]

[QUOTE="FragStains"]Yes. But I said it was blue, and so did every other person on the planet.FragStains

[QUOTE="VisigothSaxon"]

All you are doing is changing the label of the color. The color itself is not different, just the label.

FragStains

It would have to become red, or you could make up any other name. Even if you changed the names of all the colors or mixed them up, it still wouldn't change anything.

I know this thread is supposed to be for smart people only, but I'm gonna go ahead and post in it anyway. :P

As far as your question goes...that depends if you define reality based on a shared perception among people or by some sort of greater truth. I've had this same sort of discussion with various people before as it pertains to morality - the question being: is morality determined by what society deems moral or is it determined by some sort of a higher ethical code (that possibly exceeds human understanding)? In both cases - the color of the pen and what is truly "right" and "wrong" - I believe in a higher truth, and that people's perceptions or misperceptions have little to no effect on what's actual real. I mean, how long did people think the world was flat? That used to just be conventional logic. But that didn't make it true. In my opinion, the world is not defined by our perception of it. The world would still exist even if there were nobody there to interpret it. As far as I'm concerned, if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around, it does make a sound. And if everyone agrees that a red marker is blue, it's still red.

/inb4lolurdumandusukgetalifeloozr

MurasakiYugata

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Colors are reflected light and registered by our eyes. Color only exists in the minds of humans; everything consists of many colors, but we only see one. What's more, the words "red" and "blue" are simply words; what we call "red" can just as easily be called "blue," with no meaning changed. Therefore, the marker is every color of the spectrum.mrbojangles25

its been a while since I had a class explaining this, but are not colors scientifically categorized in a certain way?

Doesnt the color red reflect at a certain wavelength, and the color green at another? Isnt white the reflection of all colors, and black the reflection of none?

So no, color is not subjective, and they are not just words without real meaning. There is actual real-world physics behind it, and the science has been documented and labels (i.e. red, blue, green) applied to it.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Colors are reflected light and registered by our eyes. Color only exists in the minds of humans; everything consists of many colors, but we only see one. What's more, the words "red" and "blue" are simply words; what we call "red" can just as easily be called "blue," with no meaning changed. Therefore, the marker is every color of the spectrum.LJS9502_basic

its been a while since I had a class explaining this, but are not colors scientifically categorized in a certain way?

Doesnt the color red reflect at a certain wavelength, and the color green at another? Isnt white the reflection of all colors, and black the reflection of none?

So no, color is not subjective, and they are not just words without real meaning. There is actual real-world physics behind it, and the science has been documented and labels (i.e. red, blue, green) applied to it.

exactly, and there is absolutely no way a single person could change the label of a color any more than I could change the definition of antidisestablishmentarianism

Reality is what it is and isn't changed by our perception of itrragnaar

but our perception of reality can be changed, making our understanding of reality something else to what it is. changing it.

The label changes, the physical properties of the color do not.

[QUOTE="rragnaar"]Reality is what it is and isn't changed by our perception of itgrounderman

but our perception of reality can be changed, making our understanding of reality something else to what it is. changing it.

The label changes, the physical properties of the color do not.

coolbeans90