Abortion is simply murder

[QUOTE="dicpunch"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="dicpunch"][QUOTE="CptJSparrow"]That is your opinion. Can you give me any reason why yours is better?CptJSparrow

I don't know whyyou thought that but you are certainly entitled to yours.

I never implied your opinion was invalid, quite the opposite.

no apology needed.I see what you were saying. I don't have time to answer it right now, gotta work tomorrow. I'm sure the topic will be back twice tomorrow.

[QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

JustPlainLucas

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

So do trees.

But I guess trees don't become anything "special".

Embryos are not sentient, so they have no rights.

[QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

JustPlainLucas

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]

I believe the life begins the moment the zygote starts to split into two and the cells duplicate. If you end that life, you are committing murder. The only way I see abortion allowable is if the pregancy threatens the life of the mother. "I don't have any money" or "I got pregnant at the wrong time" is not and excuse for abortion, and anyone who does such a thing is a coward. Go through the pregnancy and give that child a chance. Give that life a chance. Give it up for adoption if you can't raise the thing, but give it a chance!

Who knows what wonderful things this world could have had if everyone didn't bail out on the lives they created? We could have had a doctor that discovered the cure for cancer. We could have had a scientist invent the perfect fuel with zero pollutant emissions. We could have had an agriculturist who found a way to end world hunger. We could have had a diplomat that brought about world peace. If you kill your unborn child, you may have robbed this world of a brilliant mind. I just can't stand someone who actually feels they have the power to end a life never given the chance to live.

DarkKar

I'm going to fight you on this JPL, what if I believe everything you say about giving life a chance, TOTALLY understandable. But what if that life grows up to be the opposite of what you say! What if my daughter grows to be a student in Mo'Nique's Flavor of Love Charm school? :o

:lol: Then someone should have aborted Mo'Nique. :lol:

[QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="dante_123456"]is masturbation murder? is kciking a man in the "junk" murder? no. i think that at the early stages of pregnancy, when the baby hasn't really developed at all it shouldn't be illegal.LJS9502_basic

Takes two to have a baby....not one.:|

Babies form much quicker than the last few months.

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"][QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

The_Ish

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

So do trees.

But I guess trees don't become anything "special".

Embryos are not sentient, so they have no rights.

Well I'm glad my parents were sensible enough to give me the chance to be born. Lord knows if they weren't ready, there'd be nothing to stop them from killing me. :|

EDIT: I've been quote glitched... :(

no apology needed.I see what you were saying. I don't have time to answer it right now, gotta work tomorrow. I'm sure the topic will be back twice tomorrow.

dicpunch

[QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="dicpunch"][QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"]You mean abortions?:P The woman may not want to take the risk of giving the child a bad surrogate family. Like I said, I would support it being optional.dicpunch

Yes....I caught that after I hit submit.:( I didn't think anyone would be fast enough to catch it though.

Unfortunately, many people use abortion as a means of birth control.

You could say the same thing about someone in a coma..

I was talking about the pain issue.

Well. I'm no doctor, but it probably depends on what was wrong with her. I never really followed the story of Terri, so I don't know what sickness she had, but unless she was brain-dead (in which case there is nothing you can do for her) than she was most likely still dreaming.
Lobster_Ear

Well of course you can google it but my point of it was she did suffer brain damage and became dependant on a feeding tube. And fourteen or so years she was in her bed and the whole argument was court wanted to follow her best interests from when she was conscious and her parents fought that she was conscious in the state she was in. "Likely" is very vague on such an important issue, so would you back away from commentary on it at all if you were unsure like that, or do you have some believable information that could support the claim.
Now from what I just remember on the news was her parents visiting her in her final days, and there were brightly colored balloons in her room. And this was on of their supporting factors in saying she was still with them, that her eyes followed the balloons around, that she was looking around consciously. Now I forget if it was proven or not but doctors said her eyes did that because her vegetative state had her in such an empty condition, and 70% + of her brain being fluids at that point lead to them saying her eyes were simply following movement and it wasn't conscious. The yes and nos and rights and wrongs I completely leave to opinion, cause that's where the answers lie and they are different for everyone.

[QUOTE="The_Ish"][QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"][QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

JustPlainLucas

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

Well I'm glad my parents were sensible enough to give me the chance to be born. Lord knows if they weren't ready, there'd be nothing to stop them from killing me. :|

So do trees.

But I guess trees don't become anything "special".

Embryos are not sentient, so they have no rights.

Yes, you were fortunate.

[QUOTE="Lobster_Ear"]

Well. I'm no doctor, but it probably depends on what was wrong with her. I never really followed the story of Terri, so I don't know what sickness she had, but unless she was brain-dead (in which case there is nothing you can do for her) than she was most likely still dreaming.
DarkKar

Well of course you can google it but my point of it was she did suffer brain damage and became dependant on a feeding tube. And fourteen or so years she was in her bed and the whole argument was court wanted to follow her best interests from when she was conscious and her parents fought that she was conscious in the state she was in. "Likely" is very vague on such an important issue, so would you back away from commentary on it at all if you were unsure like that, or do you have some believable information that could support the claim.
Now from what I just remember on the news was her parents visiting her in her final days, and there were brightly colored balloons in her room. And this was on of their supporting factors in saying she was still with them, that her eyes followed the balloons around, that she was looking around consciously. Now I forget if it was proven or not but doctors said her eyes did that because her vegetative state had her in such an empty condition, and 70% + of her brain being fluids at that point lead to them saying her eyes were simply following movement and it wasn't conscious. The yes and nos and rights and wrongs I completely leave to opinion, cause that's where the answers lie and they are different for everyone.

[QUOTE="dicpunch"]

no apology needed.I see what you were saying. I don't have time to answer it right now, gotta work tomorrow. I'm sure the topic will be back twice tomorrow.

CptJSparrow

I can't send you a PM if your profile is set to private.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="dicpunch"]

no apology needed.I see what you were saying. I don't have time to answer it right now, gotta work tomorrow. I'm sure the topic will be back twice tomorrow.

dicpunch

I can't send you a PM if your profile is set to private.

no offense i don't think men/males should have any say in this in most cases. the woman has to carry the child, put her life in danger to bring another life into the world then care for it after it is born in most cases. especially after rape or incest saying a woman has to bring that child into the world is just wrong. i understand there are cases where the father wants the child and the mother doesn't but there are just as many if not more cases of women who were raped or even abandoned by the child's father. if the woman can not care for the child why bring it into the world. there are too many orphans and foster children anyway.

my grandmother had to raise a rape child and it put a lot of strain on the child and their relationship even. my uncle was never a happy person and he hated that he was such a reminder to a mother he loved.

an abortion after the firt trimester is wrong (partial birth abortion) which is illegal anyway, but in the first trimester the baby is little more than cells. i think women should have the right to choose!!!!

[QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

JustPlainLucas

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

Isn't the definition of the beginning of life - birth?

Abortion is not murder, the baby is not developed therefore not even being human.

So i think Abortion is okay.

*sigh*

I'm not going to go into technicalities again, but abortion is not murder.

*sigh*

I'm not going to go into technicalities again, but abortion is not murder.

luke1889

Now that all depends on whenyou believe life begins....*sigh*

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"][QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

mmogoon

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

Isn't the definition of the beginning of life - birth?

For me, it's conception.

Anyway, I want to touch on what was said about rape. I still feel aborting the fetus in that situation is wrong. Sure, the woman may not want to go through the pregnancy, or she may not be able to afford to raise the child, but unfortunately, the life has already began (in my opinion obviously). What if you were a rape child? Wouldn't you thank your heavenly stars that your mother had the courage to go through the pregnancy? As far as incest pregnancies... I'm still unsure of how I feel about those.

[QUOTE="luke1889"]

*sigh*

I'm not going to go into technicalities again, but abortion is not murder.

LJS9502_basic

Now that all depends on whenyou believe life begins....*sigh*

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

luke1889

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

[QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

LJS9502_basic

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

"Murder is the malicious and unlawful killing of one human being by another. Murder is distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of intent and the lack of justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and impose a severe penalty for its commission."

[QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

LJS9502_basic

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

People seem to love throwing the term murder around without actually having a firm grasp on its proper meaning. It is the intentional taking of the life of one human being by another human being. And in UK law, a person does not become a human being until they have been born, and totally separated from its mother, i.e. had the umbilical cord cut.

Therefore, unborn children are not classed as human beings. And hence why abortion is not murder. Legal murder and moral murder are two totally different things, and I suggest you keep them so.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

Salvy41

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

"Murder is the malicious and unlawful killing of one human being by another. Murder is distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of intent and the lack of justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and impose a severe penalty for its commission."

Is that supposed to be in favour of, or against, what he said? :?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

luke1889

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

People seem to love throwing the term murder around without actually having a firm grasp on its proper meaning. It is the intentional taking of the life of one human being by another human being. And in UK law, a person does not become a human being until they have been born, and totally separated from its mother, i.e. had the umbilical cord cut.

Therefore, unborn children are not classed as human beings. And hence why abortion is not murder. Legal murder and moral murder are to totally different things, and I suggest you keep them so.

I explained why the term is used...hence get rid of the attitude.

As an aside...in the US people have been charged with murder in the life of an unborn child...so it's a fine line.

[QUOTE="luke1889"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

LJS9502_basic

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

People seem to love throwing the term murder around without actually having a firm grasp on its proper meaning. It is the intentional taking of the life of one human being by another human being. And in UK law, a person does not become a human being until they have been born, and totally separated from its mother, i.e. had the umbilical cord cut.

Therefore, unborn children are not classed as human beings. And hence why abortion is not murder. Legal murder and moral murder are to totally different things, and I suggest you keep them so.

I explained why the term is used...hence get rid of the attitude.

So do you think abortion is murder or not?

Woman of any age who sleep around and neglect to use protection and have gotten several abortions should not be allowed an more abortions. If it gets to that point they deserve to take responsibility for their stupidity.

Thyeora

[QUOTE="mmogoon"][QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"][QUOTE="wemhim"][QUOTE="tree-branch"]

no it isnt.

murder is when you kill a living human, the fetus isnt a human untill it is out of the woumb.So killing a fetus isnt murder since it isnt a living thing yet.

JustPlainLucas

I'm having a really hard time struggling to understandhow people can sayembryos aren't alive. What is your defination of alive? Does the embryo grow and become larger, and eventually become a human being? Doesn't that show it's living, or at least trying to? How can you say that isn't alive?

Isn't the definition of the beginning of life - birth?

For me, it's conception.

Anyway, I want to touch on what was said about rape. I still feel aborting the fetus in that situation is wrong. Sure, the woman may not want to go through the pregnancy, or she may not be able to afford to raise the child, but unfortunately, the life has already began (in my opinion obviously). What if you were a rape child? Wouldn't you thank your heavenly stars that your mother had the courage to go through the pregnancy? As far as incest pregnancies... I'm still unsure of how I feel about those.

honestly though if you were a rape child and you knew it, the guilt you would carry around could really screw up your life. my uncle was a rape child and could never get past that. he left home as soon as possible at sixteen because his mother couldn't get over it.

for incest cases... goodness. not only is it horrific for the person who went through it, but to have such a reminder plus the risk of genetic defects increases, so the person will have that reminder plus they could hve some recessive disorder that makes the child retarded or likely to die.

[QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

LJS9502_basic

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

[QUOTE="Salvy41"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="luke1889"]

I approach this issue from a legal standpoint, as always. And in UK law, abortion is not murder.

Have you got something against me? Because you seem to love having a go at everything I say.

luke1889

I don't even know you.....:|

Murder is the taking of a life...so if you believe abortion is murder...then to that individual(s) it's legalized murder.

"Murder is the malicious and unlawful killing of one human being by another. Murder is distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of intent and the lack of justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime and impose a severe penalty for its commission."

Is that supposed to be in favour of, or against, what he said? :?

I was merely giving the definition of murder. As you said, the term's being thrown around. Personally, I'm for a woman having the option to abort. I do not see it as murder, as it does not fit the definition of the word.

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]it's not murder if it isn't alive yet. JustPlainLucas

Is a cell not alive? Is a zygote not growing? Is the active of growth not considered living? Sorry, it is murder, because it is alive.

So do you think abortion is murder or not?

luke1889

I'm against abortion...you may call it what you will. I believe life starts at conception....and two living individuals can only create another living individual.

Off-topic: when did "foetus" start getting spelled "fetus"..i swear i was taught the formermmogoon

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]it's not murder if it isn't alive yet. ShuLordLiuPei

Is a cell not alive? Is a zygote not growing? Is the active of growth not considered living? Sorry, it is murder, because it is alive.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. In fact, I'm actually growing tired of this debate, because I feel dizzy from the number of times I've gone around in circles.

[QUOTE="luke1889"]

So do you think abortion is murder or not?

LJS9502_basic

I'm against abortion...you may call it what you will. I believe life starts at conception....and two living individuals can only create another living individual.

That is fine then.

But the way I see it is thus: murder is a crime and all crimes are defined only by law. And so when it comes to murder, it makes perfect sense to apply the definition by which a murder shall be judged. The law states that abortion is not murder - for the reasons I have already stated - and so that is why abortion is legal in virtually all developed countries in the world.

What people 'think' constitutes as murder is superfluous. because, at the end of the day, the only definition that ultimately matters is, as I have stressed too many times for my liking, the legal one. For me, there are no two ways about it.

Anywho, it ispretty late here in the UK, and I am too tired to debate this any further tonight. Goodnight. ;)

[QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]it's not murder if it isn't alive yet. ShuLordLiuPei

Is a cell not alive? Is a zygote not growing? Is the active of growth not considered living? Sorry, it is murder, because it is alive.

I would post a link stating that the scientific community states human life begins at fertilization but it has a picture and I'd probably get modded.

As an aside...in the US people have been charged with murder in the life of an unborn child...so it's a fine line.LJS9502_basic

Just before I go though...:P...I am stating what is primarily UK law, but it is also the case in most developed counties like I say. As for your example, those would have been wholly dependent on the circumstances on which the unborn child was terminated. If the mother was killed too perhaps.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]As an aside...in the US people have been charged with murder in the life of an unborn child...so it's a fine line.luke1889

Just before I go though...:P...I am stating what is primarily UK law, but it is also the case in most developed counties like I say. As for your example, those would have been wholly dependent on the circumstances on which the unborn child was terminated. If the mother was killed too perhaps.

Naturally the mother was murdered as well....nonetheless, the charge was for TWO murders...not one.;)

[QUOTE="huladog123"]Really, it is. It isn't a woman's right to kill her unborn baby, because that baby has a life of its own, it's not like its life is still owned by the mom until it's born! If murdering is illegal, than why isn't abortion? Abortion is the same thing!darklord888

Fact. Abortion is NOT murder, a mother has the right to decide what happens with her body and whatever it contains.

[QUOTE="ShuLordLiuPei"][QUOTE="JustPlainLucas"]

[QUOTE="dissonantblack"]it's not murder if it isn't alive yet. JustPlainLucas

Is a cell not alive? Is a zygote not growing? Is the active of growth not considered living? Sorry, it is murder, because it is alive.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. In fact, I'm actually growing tired of this debate, because I feel dizzy from the number of times I've gone around in circles.

[QUOTE="darklord888"][QUOTE="huladog123"]Really, it is. It isn't a woman's right to kill her unborn baby, because that baby has a life of its own, it's not like its life is still owned by the mom until it's born! If murdering is illegal, than why isn't abortion? Abortion is the same thing!iMuffins

Fact. Abortion is NOT murder, a mother has the right to decide what happens with her body and whatever it contains.

The only problem I have with that argument...is why can't the baby's desire to live be considered? Don't they have a say in what happens to their body?

For me, it's conception.

Anyway, I want to touch on what was said about rape. I still feel aborting the fetus in that situation is wrong. Sure, the woman may not want to go through the pregnancy, or she may not be able to afford to raise the child, but unfortunately, the life has already began (in my opinion obviously). What if you were a rape child? Wouldn't you thank your heavenly stars that your mother had the courage to go through the pregnancy? As far as incest pregnancies... I'm still unsure of how I feel about those.

JustPlainLucas