This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="heretrix"]
I find this topic hilarious simply because people seemed to have forgotten when there was a time that Black people couldn't even vote let alone form a group showing their support of a candidate. The reason that these things exist (and mind you Black people aren't the only ones forming political support groups) is because of how badly ALL minorities were misrepresented in the past in favor of white people..
AdamPA1006
I had nothing to do with that. I dont have to make up to them for everything.
Nobody said you had to make anything up for anybody. I'm just giving you the (obvious) reasons groups like this exist. You can't just say "I had nothing to do with it" and expect the issues that have lingered on for hundreds of years to just disappear. That's incredibly ignorant.Black people are one of the few races that were brought to this country against their will. It's something that defines their culture. For a long time they were considered sub human people. The civil rights movement isn't even a century old yet. There are still people alive that vividly remember how they were treated back then.
And again, this isn't only Black people doing this. There are uplift organizations for almost any ethnic group you can think of, as it should be.
[QUOTE="AdamPA1006"]
[QUOTE="heretrix"]
I find this topic hilarious simply because people seemed to have forgotten when there was a time that Black people couldn't even vote let alone form a group showing their support of a candidate. The reason that these things exist (and mind you Black people aren't the only ones forming political support groups) is because of how badly ALL minorities were misrepresented in the past in favor of white people..
heretrix
I had nothing to do with that. I dont have to make up to them for everything.
Nobody said you had to make anything up for anybody. I'm just giving you the (obvious) reasons groups like this exist. You can't just say "I had nothing to do with it" and expect the issues that have lingered on for hundreds of years to just disappear. That's incredibly ignorant.Black people are one of the few races that were brought to this country against their will. It's something that defines their culture. For a long time they were considered sub human people. The civil rights movement isn't even a century old yet. There are still people alive that vividly remember how they were treated back then.
And again, this isn't only Black people doing this. There are uplift organizations for almost any ethnic group you can think of, as it should be.
This, exactly.
To TC: Unless you are a part of minority group, you should have no say on how they conduct their affairs. There is no way I could understand what it means to be black in a society that is predominately white. By all means start a White People for Romney, or for Obama, or Gary Johnson. It won't mean the same thing because the history of whites and the histories of minorities in this country are very different.
The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
You were never a slave nor were any people you know ever slaves. I totally sympathize with the argument of oppression but let's not bring up something that hasn't happened for more then 100 years. Let go of the past and stop using that sh*t as a crutch.The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
djshowstopper87
[QUOTE="worlock77"][QUOTE="SuperKaio-ken"]
Double standards, not really much we can do about it. It's the same with "Black pride" and "White Pride" If you have black pride you are not a racist at all and people commend you for it, yet if you are a white man with white pride you are considered a racist.
It sucks really, but like I said there isn't really much we can do about it.thebest31406
But you can have Irish Pride, or Italian Pride, or Polish Pride, or German Pride, or whatnot else. If you're a white person then chances are you're lucky enough to know your specific ethnic background (in my case Scottish, English, Spanish and French). This isn't the case with most blacks in America. Most have been severed from their culture/ethnic background, possibly irrevocably. Thus African or black are the only cultural/ethnic distinctions they have to hold on to.
Waiting for someone to post the obvious. You sir deserve a drink.+ 1.
Incidentally, there's also an Irish-Americans for Obama site.
And there's even an African-Americans for Romney facebook page if you are that way inclined.
There is a double standard when it comes to racism in our country. A black person can yell "black power" and no one has a problem with that, a white person yells "white power" and they are deemed racist. A black person can be proud about being black, but a white person cannot be proud about being white or they are racist.
I am not advocating white power or anything like that, but a double standard does exist. Why can't we just be Americans? Why do we have to have afrian americans, mexican americans, asian americans, jewish americans ect....why can't we all just drop those terms and call each other americans?
Why would any black person vote for Rommey or any republican anyway.... every one knows a large majority of Republicans are racist.
The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
djshowstopper87
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were. Where are my free passes? How about the Irish? They were treated like dirt when they came here, where are their free passes? BET is racist in it'self, black people are individuals like everyone else, how can you stereotype an entire ethnic group (race doesn't really exist) and say "this is what black people like", I would be mad if there was a station for Jewish people called Jet and it focused on banking or other stereotypical things.
Why do there have to be "black" sitcoms and "white sitcoms"? Why can't there just be sitcoms? Why do you have to have a BET or a WET, why not just a TV? Why does there have to a black history month? If someone made a white history month you would say it's racist. Why can't there just be months? Why not just teah American History as just that, American History, why do we need to seperate it into different categories?
I am glad we have a black president, it shows how far we have come in a way. But I hate the idea that someone has to support them just becasue they share the same ethnicity as you (not really as Obama is half white) is stupid. You should vote for someone because you agree with their policies or ideas, not because they are the same ethnicity.
We should see each other as other humans and not other races.
Why would any black person vote for Rommey or any republican anyway.... every one knows a large majority of Republicans are racist.
djshowstopper87
That is not true at all. There may be some racists in the Republican Party, but it's not the majority. Remember Herman Cain? He was black and was the most supported candidate for the Republican primary until his affair incident. The last chairman of the GOP was black, his name was Michael Steele. Clarance Thomas, associate of the Supreame Court, is a black Reupublican.
Really I think your trolling now....there are racists in the GOP I'm sure, same goes for the Democrats (Jesse Jackson), but to generalise them is wrong.
I understand your frustration. I pick a candidate based on issues. But I lost count of the black people that said they voted for Obama because they wanted a president that looked just like them. Sherri Shepherd is one example of that. She actually said it on "The View." maheo30Like I said tho, if it was Herman Cain running against a white democrat, I dont think cain would get all that much of the african american vote.
I understand your frustration. I pick a candidate based on issues. But I lost count of the black people that said they voted for Obama because they wanted a president that looked just like them. Sherri Shepherd is one example of that. She actually said it on "The View." maheo30
The View is not a good show, they arn't respectful to each other and they just yell a lot. A lot of them are biased too, I hate it when they bring out politicians during an election on their show because they will always treat the republican nominee unfarily.
They arn't the only ones to do this though, FOX news for instance does the same thing but with the Democrat nominee. It's just as stupid. I'm independent, I make my own decisions.
[QUOTE="djshowstopper87"]
The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
ShadowMoses900
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were. Where are my free passes? How about the Irish? They were treated like dirt when they came here, where are their free passes? BET is racist in it'self, black people are individuals like everyone else, how can you stereotype an entire ethnic group (race doesn't really exist) and say "this is what black people like", I would be mad if there was a station for Jewish people called Jet and it focused on banking or other stereotypical things.
Why do there have to be "black" sitcoms and "white sitcoms"? Why can't there just be sitcoms? Why do you have to have a BET or a WET, why not just a TV? Why does there have to a black history month? If someone made a white history month you would say it's racist. Why can't there just be months? Why not just teah American History as just that, American History, why do we need to seperate it into different categories?
I am glad we have a black president, it shows how far we have come in a way. But I hate the idea that someone has to support them just becasue they share the same ethnicity as you (not really as Obama is half white) is stupid. You should vote for someone because you agree with their policies or ideas, not because they are the same ethnicity.
We should see each other as other humans and not other races.
QFT[QUOTE="djshowstopper87"]
The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
ShadowMoses900
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were.
Don't rank human suffering.[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"][QUOTE="djshowstopper87"]
The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
thebest31406
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were.
Don't rank human suffering.I wasn't trying to rank it, I was making a point.
He is saying that blacks suffered more than whites (which is true) so they should get better treatment and free passes on things now, so if your going to pull that card I can too. I'm a Jew, the most oppressed and hated group of people in history, so why not give me a free pass? The Irish were hated when they came here, why not give them a free pass too? Or how about Native Americans, they suffer more today in America than anyone else, but I never hear of anyone standing up for them.
He and the people who agree with him, are the one's ranking human suffering. I simply showed how it can go the other way as well, but he doens't want to look at that.
Don't rank human suffering.[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were.
ShadowMoses900
I wasn't trying to rank it, I was making a point.
He is saying that blacks suffered more than whites (which is true) so they should get better treatment and free passes on things now, so if your going to pull that card I can too. I'm a Jew, the most oppressed and hated group of people in history, so why not give me a free pass? The Irish were hated when they came here, why not give them a free pass too? Or how about Native Americans, they suffer more today in America than anyone else, but I never hear of anyone standing up for them.
He and the people who agree with him, are the one's ranking human suffering. I simply showed how it can go the other way as well, but he doens't want to look at that.
See, you're doing it again. He was wrong for doing it but you maintain that view.I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were. Where are my free passes? How about the Irish? They were treated like dirt when they came here, where are their free passes? BET is racist in it'self, black people are individuals like everyone else, how can you stereotype an entire ethnic group (race doesn't really exist) and say "this is what black people like", I would be mad if there was a station for Jewish people called Jet and it focused on banking or other stereotypical things.Why do there have to be "black" sitcoms and "white sitcoms"? Why can't there just be sitcoms? Why do you have to have a BET or a WET, why not just a TV? Why does there have to a black history month? If someone made a white history month you would say it's racist. Why can't there just be months? Why not just teah American History as just that, American History, why do we need to seperate it into different categories?
I am glad we have a black president, it shows how far we have come in a way. But I hate the idea that someone has to support them just becasue they share the same ethnicity as you (not really as Obama is half white) is stupid. You should vote for someone because you agree with their policies or ideas, not because they are the same ethnicity.
We should see each other as other humans and not other races.ShadowMoses900
- And were Jews ever enslaved in this country? Has there ever been systematic discrimination against Jews built into the law anywhere in this country? Are Jews in this country still struggling to catch up in terms of education and economic oppotunity?
- Why can't a sitcom or a television station cater to a specific demographic? Do you feel television shows should be watered down and as generic as possible?
- The entire year is "white history month". I realized this even as a child in 2nd grade. I understood even then that I was living in a society that was taylored to me and not to the four black kids in my class.
- The idea isn't that you should support Candidate X because he share the same ethnicity as you, but rather than you should support him because he's addressing the issues that your demographic is largely concerned with.
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"][QUOTE="djshowstopper87"]
The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
kingkong0124
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were. Where are my free passes? How about the Irish? They were treated like dirt when they came here, where are their free passes? BET is racist in it'self, black people are individuals like everyone else, how can you stereotype an entire ethnic group (race doesn't really exist) and say "this is what black people like", I would be mad if there was a station for Jewish people called Jet and it focused on banking or other stereotypical things.
Why do there have to be "black" sitcoms and "white sitcoms"? Why can't there just be sitcoms? Why do you have to have a BET or a WET, why not just a TV? Why does there have to a black history month? If someone made a white history month you would say it's racist. Why can't there just be months? Why not just teah American History as just that, American History, why do we need to seperate it into different categories?
I am glad we have a black president, it shows how far we have come in a way. But I hate the idea that someone has to support them just becasue they share the same ethnicity as you (not really as Obama is half white) is stupid. You should vote for someone because you agree with their policies or ideas, not because they are the same ethnicity.
We should see each other as other humans and not other races.
QFT Lol no.... Not at all. It just reeks of naivete[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were. Where are my free passes? How about the Irish? They were treated like dirt when they came here, where are their free passes? BET is racist in it'self, black people are individuals like everyone else, how can you stereotype an entire ethnic group (race doesn't really exist) and say "this is what black people like", I would be mad if there was a station for Jewish people called Jet and it focused on banking or other stereotypical things.
Why do there have to be "black" sitcoms and "white sitcoms"? Why can't there just be sitcoms? Why do you have to have a BET or a WET, why not just a TV? Why does there have to a black history month? If someone made a white history month you would say it's racist. Why can't there just be months? Why not just teah American History as just that, American History, why do we need to seperate it into different categories?
I am glad we have a black president, it shows how far we have come in a way. But I hate the idea that someone has to support them just becasue they share the same ethnicity as you (not really as Obama is half white) is stupid. You should vote for someone because you agree with their policies or ideas, not because they are the same ethnicity.
We should see each other as other humans and not other races.worlock77
- And were Jews ever enslaved in this country? Has there ever been systematic discrimination against Jews built into the law anywhere in this country? Are Jews in this country still struggling to catch up in terms of education and economic oppotunity?
- Why can't a sitcom or a television station cater to a specific demographic? Do you feel television shows should be watered down and as generic as possible?
- The entire year is "white history month". I realized this even as a child in 2nd grade. I understood even then that I was living in a society that was taylored to me and not to the four black kids in my class.
- The idea isn't that you should support Candidate X because he share the same ethnicity as you, but rather than you should support him because he's addressing the issues that your demographic is largely concerned with.
This 100 percent.And lets talk about television. TV is ALL ABOUT DEMOGRAPHICS. There can be no "just sitcoms" because the people who make them intentionally create the shows for particular demographics. This is why you get shows like Friends that have an all white cast based in a hugely multicultural city like New York. They are selling commercials tailored towards pretty White people. So that's what you are going to get. The reason there is a BET is because the African american community was and is not fairly represented on television. So they created a network that sells commercials mostly to Blacks and BET creates shows about Black people in which they can show those targeted commercials to. It's gotten better in recent years and going forward it will get better still, because of technology and the internet the world has shrunk and it's easier now to be exposed to other cultures.
[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were. Where are my free passes? How about the Irish? They were treated like dirt when they came here, where are their free passes? BET is racist in it'self, black people are individuals like everyone else, how can you stereotype an entire ethnic group (race doesn't really exist) and say "this is what black people like", I would be mad if there was a station for Jewish people called Jet and it focused on banking or other stereotypical things.
Why do there have to be "black" sitcoms and "white sitcoms"? Why can't there just be sitcoms? Why do you have to have a BET or a WET, why not just a TV? Why does there have to a black history month? If someone made a white history month you would say it's racist. Why can't there just be months? Why not just teah American History as just that, American History, why do we need to seperate it into different categories?
I am glad we have a black president, it shows how far we have come in a way. But I hate the idea that someone has to support them just becasue they share the same ethnicity as you (not really as Obama is half white) is stupid. You should vote for someone because you agree with their policies or ideas, not because they are the same ethnicity.
We should see each other as other humans and not other races.worlock77
- And were Jews ever enslaved in this country? Has there ever been systematic discrimination against Jews built into the law anywhere in this country? Are Jews in this country still struggling to catch up in terms of education and economic oppotunity?
- Why can't a sitcom or a television station cater to a specific demographic? Do you feel television shows should be watered down and as generic as possible?
- The entire year is "white history month". I realized this even as a child in 2nd grade. I understood even then that I was living in a society that was taylored to me and not to the four black kids in my class.
- The idea isn't that you should support Candidate X because he share the same ethnicity as you, but rather than you should support him because he's addressing the issues that your demographic is largely concerned with.
[QUOTE="Marth6781"] Lol no.... Not at all. It just reeks of naivete N30F3N1X
Nah, you're just trying to make your sh!tty double standards look less bad than they actually are ;)
^Don't rank human suffering.[QUOTE="thebest31406"][QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]
I'm a Jew, we were oppressed and hated more than you ever were.
ShadowMoses900
I wasn't trying to rank it, I was making a point.
He is saying that blacks suffered more than whites (which is true) so they should get better treatment and free passes on things now, so if your going to pull that card I can too. I'm a Jew, the most oppressed and hated group of people in history, so why not give me a free pass? The Irish were hated when they came here, why not give them a free pass too? Or how about Native Americans, they suffer more today in America than anyone else, but I never hear of anyone standing up for them.
He and the people who agree with him, are the one's ranking human suffering. I simply showed how it can go the other way as well, but he doens't want to look at that.
No, you are the one doing the ranking and need to stfu.
[QUOTE="LOXO7"]
What some black people think of Ron Paul. They're probably actors though.
Bucked20
I know plenty of black people that like Ron Paul,you act like its impossible
I hope they arent actors, thats a great video.
Nobody said you had to make anything up for anybody. I'm just giving you the (obvious) reasons groups like this exist. You can't just say "I had nothing to do with it" and expect the issues that have lingered on for hundreds of years to just disappear. That's incredibly ignorant.[QUOTE="heretrix"]
[QUOTE="AdamPA1006"]
I had nothing to do with that. I dont have to make up to them for everything.
kabphillie
Black people are one of the few races that were brought to this country against their will. It's something that defines their culture. For a long time they were considered sub human people. The civil rights movement isn't even a century old yet. There are still people alive that vividly remember how they were treated back then.
And again, this isn't only Black people doing this. There are uplift organizations for almost any ethnic group you can think of, as it should be.
This, exactly.
To TC: Unless you are a part of minority group, you should have no say on how they conduct their affairs. There is no way I could understand what it means to be black in a society that is predominately white. By all means start a White People for Romney, or for Obama, or Gary Johnson. It won't mean the same thing because the history of whites and the histories of minorities in this country are very different.
You don't get it. TC's blood is 50% minority.....
Well romney is basically a nazi, and the last time a bunch of white people rallied around a nazi leader, it didn't turn out well...
No, others had to deal with racial injustice, nowadays everybody just wants to whine about what others went through. and blame people who had nothing to do with those things today. You say "we" but you never had to deal with that yourself. To be honest, that entitlement and blame alot of blacks seem to have is a major reason that they are still way behind the other races.The reason us black people get free passes in some instances like BET and supporting President Obama for example is because we (as a race) have had to deal with a lot of crap and injustice ( a lot of it comes from racist whites through out history) slavery, jim crow laws etc. It still waay easier to be white in america than it is to be black or any other race. White Privilage exist whether whites will admit it or not. And LOL at people complaining about BET, you guys do have WET its pretty much any other station on TV besides BET.
djshowstopper87
What you're saying is basically racist; White people have it easy? All months are white history months? white privage? Where do you get this? With this us vs. them mentality, you're actually pretty racist in this thinking and don't realize it.
[QUOTE="Bucked20"]
[QUOTE="LOXO7"]
What some black people think of Ron Paul. They're probably actors though.
AdamPA1006
I know plenty of black people that like Ron Paul,you act like its impossible
I hope they arent actors, thats a great video.
Thanks. But I didn't make that video. What about this one with related black man Chris Rock and Ron Paul?I really wish we could all just be Americans. Having certain organizations geared toward certain races only keeps racism alive. For example, even if a White History Month is not needed, it will still breed resentment so long as minorities can have such months when whites can't without a huge public uproar. Unless all things race-based are eliminated, racism and resentment will continue to run wild on high levels. Hell, Skyrim has better race relations than the "good 'ole US of A"! :lol:
I've heard the guy's an idiot, but really? A Nazi? People compared Obama to a Nazi, and that didn't go too well, I'm sure. Even though we have politicians that suck giant donkey balls, none of them are as terrible as Hitler who killed six million Jews plus millions of other people based on their ethnicity, political ideology, and sexual orientation.Well romney is basically a nazi, and the last time a bunch of white people rallied around a nazi leader, it didn't turn out well...
TopTierHustler
political correctness in ten years time white people will be asking for freedomLink
Can you imagine if I made a group "White people for Romney"? Isnt it unfair one group gets to come together like that and support a candidate, but another group isnt?
AdamPA1006
Well romney is basically a nazi, and the last time a bunch of white people rallied around a nazi leader, it didn't turn out well...
TopTierHustler
:lol:
Romney can go and burn in hell ( sorry for language ) but all he is is another rich cold hearted business jerk that hates america. No one likes him accept the dumb people in the south that's how George bush got in twice his he will cause trouble but with Obama loads of people like him his sacrificed loads for his country his hair even has turned grey over the pressure! his friendly, he was in office when we killed Osama, and his the best president I have known I tell you if Romney gets in he will make a shamble of the country like bush did his a coldhearted **** with plums in his mouth seahorse123You don't need to be sorry for swearing on OT. Just a FYI. :)
[QUOTE="seahorse123"]Romney can go and burn in hell ( sorry for language ) but all he is is another rich cold hearted business jerk that hates america. No one likes him accept the dumb people in the south that's how George bush got in twice his he will cause trouble but with Obama loads of people like him his sacrificed loads for his country his hair even has turned grey over the pressure! his friendly, he was in office when we killed Osama, and his the best president I have known I tell you if Romney gets in he will make a shamble of the country like bush did his a coldhearted **** with plums in his mouth gamerguru100You don't need to be sorry for swearing on OT. Just a FYI. :) Oh ok then:)
Romney can go and burn in hell ( sorry for language ) but all he is is another rich cold hearted business jerk that hates america. No one likes him accept the dumb people in the south that's how George bush got in twice his he will cause trouble but with Obama loads of people like him his sacrificed loads for his country his hair even has turned grey over the pressure! his friendly, he was in office when we killed Osama, and his the best president I have known I tell you if Romney gets in he will make a shamble of the country like bush did his a coldhearted **** with plums in his mouth seahorse123
that doesnt make much sense:|
[QUOTE="seahorse123"]Romney can go and burn in hell ( sorry for language ) but all he is is another rich cold hearted business jerk that hates america. No one likes him accept the dumb people in the south that's how George bush got in twice his he will cause trouble but with Obama loads of people like him his sacrificed loads for his country his hair even has turned grey over the pressure! his friendly, he was in office when we killed Osama, and his the best president I have known I tell you if Romney gets in he will make a shamble of the country like bush did his a coldhearted **** with plums in his mouth sexyweapons
that doesnt make much sense:|
I must of had a hate attack over Romney:) sorry I just would right how I would say stuffI have to agree with TC here. Black people have all the privileges in American society and white people just get the scraps.Crunchy_Nuts
Sarcasm right?
I have to agree with TC here. Black people have all the privileges in American society and white people just get the scraps.Crunchy_NutsThat's a load of **** explain...
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