American Atheists sue over ground zero cross.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]Explain exactly how it is "representing christians" only.

gotdangit

It was found in the rubble of the crashed building. They are using it in their museum. Someone already said they are accepting other icons from religions of things that had to do with the crash. Just because their is a Christian cross... (which it isn't, it's just happens to look like one) doesn't mean it represents only Christians and even more, it doesn't mean it ignores all other religions.

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] It's disrespectful to represent the religion of a few victims, but not all of them. Christians are not any more special than anyone else, they do not get special privileges. Nor should they get to be represented while everyone else is left in the dark.

Nibroc420

Your argument kind of hits a wall if you don't wish to explain things. If you have read my above posts, then I don't understand how they represent christians only. They also represent Judaism, star of david and the prayer shawl. I think this is the third time I've said this, other individuals could donate things from the victim's as well. The American Atheists wanted to put up a flag or an atom, I mean an atom? Are you saying the atheists are left out in the dark as you put it? I could understand donating a flag, sure, ok; but an atom? Is that an officially recognized symbol for atheism? I'm simply asking because I don't know. So far we have Christianity and Judaism crossed off the checklist, family members could donate items to check off Buddhism, Hinduism, or Muslism, hey or even Paganism too.

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] That part is pretty obvious. Want me to explain what daytime is as well? Not happening. I shouldn't have to explain the obvious, if you're unable to understand, try reading the article.Nibroc420

It was found in the rubble of the crashed building. They are using it in their museum. Someone already said they are accepting other icons from religions of things that had to do with the crash. Just because their is a Christian cross... (which it isn't, it's just happens to look like one) doesn't mean it represents only Christians and even more, it doesn't mean it ignores all other religions.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]Explain exactly how it is "representing christians" only.

StrifeDelivery

Your argument kind of hits a wall if you don't wish to explain things. If you have read my above posts, then I don't understand how they represent christians only. They also represent Judaism, star of david and the prayer shawl. I think this is the third time I've said this, other individuals could donate things from the victim's as well. The American Atheists wanted to put up a flag or an atom, I mean an atom? Are you saying the atheists are left out in the dark as you put it? I could understand donating a flag, sure, ok; but an atom? Is that an officially recognized symbol for atheism? I'm simply asking because I don't know. So far we have Christianity and Judaism crossed off the checklist, family members could donate items to check off Buddhism, Hinduism, or Muslism, hey or even Paganism too.

[QUOTE="StrifeDelivery"]Your argument kind of hits a wall if you don't wish to explain things.Nibroc420

In reality you've not really explained anything. You've merely stonewalled around people's explanations, and avoided their side by repeating "you don't understand". A person can't understand if you don't say anything, but ok. You keep referring to this mystical and mysterious "simple to understand concept" but never state what it is. Simply put, you are avoiding the discussion at hand. This is fine and all, but don't go on to say that we're simply covering our ears :?

[QUOTE="StrifeDelivery"]Your argument kind of hits a wall if you don't wish to explain things.Nibroc420

Yea but go ahead, expect people to believe your argument when you won't even explain it. Seems to me like you're the one covering your eyes and ears, because you won't even acknowledge the fact they they're letting other religious icons into the museums, as long as they are linked to 9/11. So go ahead, ignore this one also.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="StrifeDelivery"]Your argument kind of hits a wall if you don't wish to explain things.StrifeDelivery

In reality you've not really explained anything. You've merely stonewalled around people's explanations, and avoided their side by repeating "you don't understand". A person can't understand if you don't say anything, but ok. You keep referring to this mystical and mysterious "simple to understand concept" but never state what it is. Simply put, you are avoiding the discussion at hand. This is fine and all, but don't go on to say that we're simply covering our ears :?

[QUOTE="StrifeDelivery"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I have explained things. People are simply covering their ears/eyes and going "no,no,no,no,no" It reaches a point where if they're simply choosing to not understand a simple to understand concept, that I'm going to simply facepalm, laugh, and ignore them.Nibroc420

In reality you've not really explained anything. You've merely stonewalled around people's explanations, and avoided their side by repeating "you don't understand". A person can't understand if you don't say anything, but ok. You keep referring to this mystical and mysterious "simple to understand concept" but never state what it is. Simply put, you are avoiding the discussion at hand. This is fine and all, but don't go on to say that we're simply covering our ears :?

[QUOTE="StrifeDelivery"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I have explained things. People are simply covering their ears/eyes and going "no,no,no,no,no" It reaches a point where if they're simply choosing to not understand a simple to understand concept, that I'm going to simply facepalm, laugh, and ignore them.Nibroc420

In reality you've not really explained anything. You've merely stonewalled around people's explanations, and avoided their side by repeating "you don't understand". A person can't understand if you don't say anything, but ok. You keep referring to this mystical and mysterious "simple to understand concept" but never state what it is. Simply put, you are avoiding the discussion at hand. This is fine and all, but don't go on to say that we're simply covering our ears :?

I'm running in circles here. Give me a truth to go off of. How can I ignore a truth if I don't know what it is. Maybe I can try 20 questions. Is it because the atheists are mad that the atom wasn't accepted into the museum? Is the atom the officially recognized symbol of atheism? Who is being left out in the dark, the atheists?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="StrifeDelivery"]

In reality you've not really explained anything. You've merely stonewalled around people's explanations, and avoided their side by repeating "you don't understand". A person can't understand if you don't say anything, but ok. You keep referring to this mystical and mysterious "simple to understand concept" but never state what it is. Simply put, you are avoiding the discussion at hand. This is fine and all, but don't go on to say that we're simply covering our ears :?

gotdangit

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Those who choose to ignore the truth, will never know the truth.Nibroc420

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]Thank you for explaining why you won't acknowledge our posts or even explain anything.

gotdangit

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I've explained things. You've simply ignored me, if you wanted to know the truth, you would've found it already. Clearly you've got some other motives which prevent you from even wanting to understand, so there's no reason to explain it. Simple logic, empathy, and education prevail. But only if you want to use them.Nibroc420

Once again, because I know you ignored it like 5 times already. They are representing more then one religion, they are accepting peoples religious icons that actually have something to do with the 9/11 buildings and victims.

You tell me I'm ignoring your posts, but I keep trying to get you to talk about this, and someone else also tried, and you've ignored it every single time. Another thing, you say you've explained it several times. Yet here we are, you're sitting here arguing that I'm ignoring you, all this time you had to explain to me once more, (apperarently) but you won't.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]On the contrary, I've been trying to understand your wacky thoughts, but you never explain, and now when I actually ask you to explain, you won't. Now tell me who's being ignorant.

gotdangit

Once again, because I know you ignored it like 5 times already. They are representing more then one religion, they are accepting peoples religious icons that actually have something to do with the 9/11 buildings and victims.

You tell me I'm ignoring your posts, but I keep trying to get you to talk about this, and someone else also tried, and you've ignored it every single time. Another thing, you say you've explained it several times. Yet here we are, you're sitting here arguing that I'm ignoring you, all this time you had to explain to me once more, (apperarently) but you won't.

Stupid things like this are why people hate atheists.scorch-62

I don't need a reason to hate them. 8)

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I've explained things. You've simply ignored me, if you wanted to know the truth, you would've found it already. Clearly you've got some other motives which prevent you from even wanting to understand, so there's no reason to explain it. Simple logic, empathy, and education prevail. But only if you want to use them.Nibroc420

Well you've explained that you said that you explained it several times. They aren't representing every religion equally? Ok, who is left out? Is Atheism a religion now? Judaism and Christianity are both being represented because of what was found at ground zero or donated by family members. A family member could donate a Quran if the victim was Muslim; it merely has to pertain to 9/11. Once again, who isn't being represented? The only individual's that I could see not being represented are those who haven't stepped forward and gave something to the museum (like the family who donated the Jewish prayer shawl did) or those whom you are trying to classify as a religion (Atheism) or by donating something that isn't representative of all atheists or an officially recognized symbol (an atom?).

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] :roll: I've explained it several times. You either ignore me, or twist my words and ignore the thoughts and feelings of the victims. I've said "They're not representing every religion equally" and you say "Who cares" Clearly you dont care, so i see no need to explain myself 100x over.Nibroc420

Once again, because I know you ignored it like 5 times already. They are representing more then one religion, they are accepting peoples religious icons that actually have something to do with the 9/11 buildings and victims.

You tell me I'm ignoring your posts, but I keep trying to get you to talk about this, and someone else also tried, and you've ignored it every single time. Another thing, you say you've explained it several times. Yet here we are, you're sitting here arguing that I'm ignoring you, all this time you had to explain to me once more, (apperarently) but you won't.

I'm sure muslims died there too, and many other religious people. Putting a cross there is inconsiderate if you ask me. If muslims would plant a moon and star over there it would lead to fights and hate.LustForSoul

But, ok, anyone is free to donate though as long as it pertains to 9/11. One family donated a victim's prayer shawl; he was Jewish. This isn't a Christian museum or memorial, it's for 9/11 and everything and everyone who was affected by it.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]I don't say who cares, I explain that it's not representing a religion, but more like a blessing to everyone. Then you say that because someone is blessing you and isn't that same religion, it's disrespectful. You're the one ignoring all of my questions and remarks.

Once again, because I know you ignored it like 5 times already. They are representing more then one religion, they are accepting peoples religious icons that actually have something to do with the 9/11 buildings and victims.

You tell me I'm ignoring your posts, but I keep trying to get you to talk about this, and someone else also tried, and you've ignored it every single time. Another thing, you say you've explained it several times. Yet here we are, you're sitting here arguing that I'm ignoring you, all this time you had to explain to me once more, (apperarently) but you won't.

gotdangit

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I explain it, and you go "nonononoono" I go "well yes, because ______" you go "nonononono" It reaches a certain point where it's obvious you're not interested in understanding.Nibroc420

[spoiler] THEY ARE ALLOWING PEOPLE TO TURN IN RELIGIOUS ARTIFACTS AS LONG AS THEY PERTAIN TO THE CRASH SITE!! Other religions are being represented... Derp.:o [/spoiler]

NIBROC, Read and respond ^^

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] I explain it, and you go "nonononoono" I go "well yes, because ______" you go "nonononono" It reaches a certain point where it's obvious you're not interested in understanding.Nibroc420

But, other victims are being represented though. Do we simply ignore the fact that the Jewish victims are being recognized? Families simply have to donate something. Simple as that. Family members donated prayer shawl, Judaism recognized, Jewish victims recognized. How do you recognize the athetistic victims? With what though, an atom, which a very few members of the community would understand. I mean if atheism had a symbol that was easily recognized and understood to mean atheism, than ok.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]Are you being ironic? I'm the one who is explaining, and you're the one who is who is ignoring to respond to anything I say. Like I said earlier, you only respond to provoke people.

StrifeDelivery

But, other victims are being represented though. Do we simply ignore the fact that the Jewish victims are being recognized? Families simply have to donate something. Simple as that. Family members donated prayer shawl, Judaism recognized, Jewish victims recognized. How do you recognize the athetistic victims? With what though, an atom, which a very few members of the community would understand. I mean if atheism had a symbol that was easily recognized and understood to mean atheism, than ok.

NIBROC, Read and respond ^^

gotdangit

"We have not heard of any other religious groups at all that have been allowed to put something up."

Next time there's a thread with an article in the OP, perhaps you should take a moment to read it, possibly twice?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

NIBROC, Read and respond ^^

gotdangit

"We have not heard of any other religious groups at all that have been allowed to put something up."

Next time there's a thread with an article in the OP, perhaps you should take a moment to read it, possibly twice?

The 9/11 Memorial foundation told ABCNews.com that other religious artifacts will be included in the 9/11 Memorial Museum. A Star of David cut from WTC steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts will both be on display in the same historical exhibition as the cross.

A Jewish prayer shawl, donated by a victim's family member, will be part of the museum's memorial exhibition.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"]

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

NIBROC, Read and respond ^^

gotdangit

"We have not heard of any other religious groups at all that have been allowed to put something up."

Next time there's a thread with an article in the OP, perhaps you should take a moment to read it, possibly twice?

The 9/11 Memorial foundation told ABCNews.com that other religious artifacts will be included in the 9/11 Memorial Museum. A Star of David cut from WTC steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts will both be on display in the same historical exhibition as the cross.

A Jewish prayer shawl, donated by a victim's family member, will be part of the museum's memorial exhibition.

Oh hai guys, lets pretend we read the article when we actually didn't.... Oh and yea, I called it, once again you happened to ignore this. Are you blind?

Dang, you beat me to it gotdangit. So a Star of David was cut from the WTC steel. That will be on display. THe cross is WTC steel. Thus another religious group was allowed to place something up, in this instance, Jewish members were allowed to place something in the museum/memorial

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] O hai gais, lets all ignore logic, and not even read the article. or we could simply read it :

"We have not heard of any other religious groups at all that have been allowed to put something up."

Next time there's a thread with an article in the OP, perhaps you should take a moment to read it, possibly twice?

Nibroc420

The 9/11 Memorial foundation told ABCNews.com that other religious artifacts will be included in the 9/11 Memorial Museum. A Star of David cut from WTC steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts will both be on display in the same historical exhibition as the cross.

A Jewish prayer shawl, donated by a victim's family member, will be part of the museum's memorial exhibition.

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] O hai gais, lets all ignore logic, and not even read the article. or we could simply read it :

"We have not heard of any other religious groups at all that have been allowed to put something up."

Next time there's a thread with an article in the OP, perhaps you should take a moment to read it, possibly twice?

Nibroc420

The 9/11 Memorial foundation told ABCNews.com that other religious artifacts will be included in the 9/11 Memorial Museum. A Star of David cut from WTC steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts will both be on display in the same historical exhibition as the cross.

A Jewish prayer shawl, donated by a victim's family member, will be part of the museum's memorial exhibition.

Equal size and promience? I mean, come on. They found the cross, whereas they went and cut the Star of David out. That cross is what, 17 feet or something? Would it have been better if it was a 2 foot cross? I mean so far we got one Bible and one cross and over here we got one Star of David and one prayer shawl.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]Why don't you read the article. Taken from the first page at the very bottom.

The 9/11 Memorial foundation told ABCNews.com that other religious artifacts will be included in the 9/11 Memorial Museum. A Star of David cut from WTC steel and a Bible fused to a piece of steel that was found during recovery efforts will both be on display in the same historical exhibition as the cross.

A Jewish prayer shawl, donated by a victim's family member, will be part of the museum's memorial exhibition.

gotdangit

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] Silverman said that if the 9/11 Memorial foundation allows all other religious memorials of equal size and prominence to be displayed in the museum, the group would "happily, happily, drop the case." Clearly the memorial isn't allowing equality when it comes to representing the victims.Nibroc420

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]Because American Atheist wants to bring in religious icons that have nothing to do with 9/11. Maybe if you read the article, you'd know they are only allowing artifacts that pertain to 9/11, and that's fair, because... what do you know?! It's a Musuem for 9/11!

gotdangit

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] It's discrimination against other religions.Nibroc420

I'm not even Christian and I'm arguing for them because the Atheists are taking this way to far. Like I said, if they want to be respresented, all they need is an icon from 9/11, isn't that simple enough?

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] It's discrimination against other religions.Nibroc420

There is a difference between not caring and figuring out how to go about what you are wanting. The cross is from the wreckage, so is the Star of David and the bible found. The prayer shawl was donated by a family member. Even if we ignore the prayer shawl, all those items were found at ground zero. I mean an atheist could make a flag out of some of the WTC steel and place it in the museum. But basically it is sounding like they just want to place some random flag or some random atom sculpture that they made. I don't think a cross made out of popsicle sticks would be placed in this museum. Not because it's discriminatory agaisnt the religion itself, but it doesn't pertain to the point of the museum. If the American Atheists donated a flag or a fireman saving someone scultped from rivets or steel or something from the WTC and they got denied again, they I would agree with you Nibroc.

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]No it's not, we already tha if it has something to do with the Twin Towers/WTC it would be allowed in the museum. The Atheists just want to take a random flag or atom that has nothing to do with 9/11 and put it in a museum that is there for people to remember 9/11, does that make sense? No.

gotdangit

I'm not even Christian and I'm arguing for them because the Atheists are taking this way to far. Like I said, if they want to be respresented, all they need is an icon from 9/11, isn't that simple enough?

It seems like American Atheists do everything they possibly can to troll religious Americans. I'm an atheist and I think this is pretty ridiculous just let the cross stay there.

It seems like American Atheists do everything they possibly can to troll religious Americans. I'm an atheist and I think this is pretty ridiculous just let the cross stay there.

UnknownSniper65

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"] They want it there to represent the people who're not religious, currently they're not being represented in the memorial. Again, you've clearly shown you couldn't care less about them, my question is why? Why do people who're religious have more of a right than those who are not? Do my beliefs not matter because they dont involve a God? It's discrimination, and you dont care. Fair enough, however it doesn't make it okay.Nibroc420

I'm not even Christian and I'm arguing for them because the Atheists are taking this way to far. Like I said, if they want to be respresented, all they need is an icon from 9/11, isn't that simple enough?

Taking a random "atom" that has nothing to do with 9/11, or the World Trade Centers doesn't mean anything to anyone. It would mean something if it were taken or found in the actual building or were given from a victim of 9/11.

Also you constantly respond to me, but never the strife guy?

[QUOTE="Nibroc420"][QUOTE="gotdangit"]It would be allowed if it was a flag found in the rubble of the crash site. Stop ignoring the fact that it's a musuem for 9/11. We've already proven to you that as long as it pertains to 9/11 it would be allowed. If Atheists really wanted something to be there, they should find something from the crash the represents Atheists.

I'm not even Christian and I'm arguing for them because the Atheists are taking this way to far. Like I said, if they want to be respresented, all they need is an icon from 9/11, isn't that simple enough?

gotdangit

Taking a random "atom" that has nothing to do with 9/11, or the World Trade Centers doesn't mean anything to anyone. It would mean something if it were taken or found in the actual building or were given from a victim of 9/11.

Also you constantly respond to me, but never the strife guy?

Well at least I know you read my posts there gotdangit

Yes I do, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this is ridiculous. For some reason Nimbroc just decides to ignore random things that he knows he has no argument against and then calls us ignorant... It's double standars like this that we need to get rid of.

They all pertain to the WTC.
The star wasn't made by the WTC bombings, it was welded together from pieces of the towers...

The "flag or atom" that the Atheists want to contribute to the museum don't pertain to WTC.
They're not allowed to donate anything, even if said "Atom" was made of WTC wreckage.

No where in the article did it say that anything that American Atheist tries to give is denied.
Actually it did, once again you should try to read it.

They are only denying the things that have nothing to do with WTF.
And the Jewish Shawl? it wasn't in the wreckage...

Also, those items are icons from 9/11, because that's what people view them as. To you it's just a piece of garbage, to them, it means something.
To athiests, the Atom and Flag mean something. Sure, to you it's garbage, but to them, it means something.

Taking a random "atom" that has nothing to do with 9/11, or the World Trade Centers doesn't mean anything to anyone.
A random shawl that has nothing to do with the WTC means nothing to anyone.

It would mean something if it were taken or found in the actual building or were given from a victim of 9/11.
How can a victim of 9/11 donate something? :?

gotdangit

I can vaguely recall it being reported on the news here when they found that upright cross in the wreckage. I think it's a legitimate piece of the history/saga of the site and all that happened there and should therefore definitely be in the museum regardless of any obvious religious connotations.

I think that it's a pretty lame and unnecessary thing to complain about, but for everyone railing on atheists (yet again), I want to say that atheists are far from the only group who've pulled petty and ridiculous stunts like this, so quit acting persecuted. This situation and this group of atheists also does not adequately represent all atheists. t3hrubikscube

No, I'm definitely not railing against atheists or have anything against them. And yes, you are right, this situation and group of atheists aren't representative of all atheists, same with all members of all religions.

No, I'm definitely not railing against atheists or have anything against them.StrifeDelivery

[QUOTE="gotdangit"]They all pertain to the WTC.
The star wasn't made by the WTC bombings, it was welded together from pieces of the towers...

It was carvved from the towers exactly, you admit it, it pertains to 9/11

The "flag or atom" that the Atheists want to contribute to the museum don't pertain to WTC.
They're not allowed to donate anything, even if said "Atom" was made of WTC wreckage.

If it actually said that, then leave me a quote. All I read was that they tried to donate items that having nothing to do with 9/11

No where in the article did it say that anything that American Atheist tries to give is denied.
Actually it did, once again you should try to read it.

Read above.

They are only denying the things that have nothing to do with WTF.
And the Jewish Shawl? it wasn't in the wreckage...

It was given by a victim of 9/11

Also, those items are icons from 9/11, because that's what people view them as. To you it's just a piece of garbage, to them, it means something.
To athiests, the Atom and Flag mean something. Sure, to you it's garbage, but to them, it means something.

How does it mean something? It has nothing to do with 9/11 at all. That's not representing anyone that suffered from the 9/11 attacks.

Taking a random "atom" that has nothing to do with 9/11, or the World Trade Centers doesn't mean anything to anyone.
A random shawl that has nothing to do with the WTC means nothing to anyone.

The woman was a relative of someone who died in the crash.

It would mean something if it were taken or found in the actual building or were given from a victim of 9/11.
How can a victim of 9/11 donate something? :?

Just because you didn't die during 9/11 doesn't mean you aren't a victim. If the terrorists that flew into the building killed my brother, I'm a victim of the 9/11 attacks, and I have suffered. Luckily that didn't happen.

Nibroc420