American Senate enjoys recidivism, no food stamps for felons

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frannkzappa

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#151 frannkzappa
Member since 2012 • 3003 Posts

[QUOTE="frannkzappa"]

[QUOTE="dude_brahmski"]

Information is harder to manipulate than it once was, and not all of your examples demonstrate your point, as I'm sure you are already aware (war and typhoid in Athens, military takeover in Rome). Additionally, democracies in their infancy have issues, as demonstrated by others (and even the U.S. initially). North America and Europe are examples of modern, mature democracies that have improved over the course of time. And, it is pretty apparent that educated voters care a bit, given the condition of modern western civilization.

One word: Collusion.

A futile attempt to achieve something without giving due regard to constraints will invariably result in falling short of maximizing within the context of constraints.

There's a serious problem when a hypothetical government is worse than one that has had all of its faults played out in reality. Perhaps you should reconsider your stance.

dude_brahmski

Most failed democracies seemed healthy at one point. There are far far more examples of failed democracies then successful ones. Even the successful ones have only been around for 100 years (excluding usa) they have plenty of time to fail. And the democracies of Europe are hardly as sturdy as you may think, just look at how they are handling themselves.

that doesn't apply to technocracy any more than democracy, in fact probably less so. You have yet to name a problem that isn't already happening in democracy. you also assume that a technocracy will do nothing to stop corruption.

iIsee, so you are a defeatist. thankfully your attitude was not shared by the innovators of history.

I don't see how you could possibly say that given your attempt at argument. The best you have done so far is to attempt to project democracies problems onto technocracy assuming that a technocratic government would be unaware of and unable to deal with those problems, which is ludicrous.

I feel more confident in technocracy then ever, as you like everyone else has failed to argue against it.

There is more success in democracy than all other forms combined, and the reasons for failures of numerous democracies you've posed were not due to the nature of democracy itself. Moreover, they continue to improve. The problems in Europe lie namely in its attempted semi-unification, and certainly at this time doesn't pose a threat to the developed nations there, though there may be difficulties for the developing ones (a recurring theme with developing nations, apparently).

Perhaps technocracy will magically be the first bureaucracy that manages to avoid corruption when left independent of external influences, but at this point you've really idealism on your side, because you've proposed brings nothing new with it in practice. Either propose something substantial, systematic and addresses problems in a realistic fashion taking into account considerable problems you've to this point ignored, or expect to (rightly) be disregarded for what your posts are: a joke.

The innovators of history dealt with constraints, while those that didn't simply dreamed.

You haven't defended technocracy as a viable system of governance. You have brought absolutely nothing new to the table WRT functionality, and are somehow confused as to how problems that plague other governments would consequently recur here? In all frankness, I'm pretty sure you picked up Plato last week and are going through that high-school-kid-that-just-discovered-philosophy phase. You'll get past it.

You've got quite a nasty way of saying nothing.

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dude_brahmski

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#152 dude_brahmski
Member since 2013 • 472 Posts

You've got quite a nasty way of saying nothing.

frannkzappa

To be fair, you prompted the nastiness by taking so long to say nothing yourself.

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frannkzappa

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#153 frannkzappa
Member since 2012 • 3003 Posts

[QUOTE="frannkzappa"]

You've got quite a nasty way of saying nothing.

dude_brahmski

To be fair, you prompted the nastiness by taking so long to say nothing yourself.

It's sad when arguments leave neither side convinced.

We have only ourselves to blame.

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dude_brahmski

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#154 dude_brahmski
Member since 2013 • 472 Posts

[QUOTE="dude_brahmski"]

[QUOTE="frannkzappa"]

You've got quite a nasty way of saying nothing.

frannkzappa

To be fair, you prompted the nastiness by taking so long to say nothing yourself.

It's sad when arguments leave neither side convinced.

 

We have only ourselves to blame.

Having discussions with vague descriptions of flexible ideas with innumerable variations, all with very specific practical consequences that can further vary by circumstance, and having no empirical method to test them throughout the course of a discussion can leave a pretty drastic difference of opinions - most likely leaving both parties to exit with the ones they entered with.

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frannkzappa

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#155 frannkzappa
Member since 2012 • 3003 Posts

[QUOTE="frannkzappa"]

[QUOTE="dude_brahmski"]

To be fair, you prompted the nastiness by taking so long to say nothing yourself.

dude_brahmski

It's sad when arguments leave neither side convinced.

We have only ourselves to blame.

Having discussions with vague descriptions of flexible ideas with innumerable variations, all with very specific practical consequences that can further vary by circumstance, and having no empirical method to test them throughout the course of a discussion can leave a pretty drastic difference of opinions - most likely leaving both parties to exit with the ones they entered with.

Mhm

Next time this inevitably happens we'er going to have to break down some concepts and agree upon some definitions before getting into the pointless chatter.

Forgive me for sounding like Plato but we haven't even come to an agreement on what the "good" in "good government" even means.

But i've got to go to bed, so we can do that later.

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leviathan91

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#156 leviathan91
Member since 2007 • 7763 Posts

[QUOTE="Gaming-Planet"]

Once you go bad you never go back to being good.

Blue-Sky

Are they bad though?

particularly when majority of convicts are so because they smoked a harmless plant in the privacy of their home. 

Criminal records usually don't mean that the person is bad. It just means they got caught.

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LJS9502_basic

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#157 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180247 Posts

[QUOTE="Gaming-Planet"]

Once you go bad you never go back to being good.

Blue-Sky

Are they bad though?

particularly when majority of convicts are so because they smoked a harmless plant in the privacy of their home. 

In their own home? I doubt they got arrested in privacy unless they were dealers.
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deactivated-5b78379493e12

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#158 deactivated-5b78379493e12
Member since 2005 • 15625 Posts

The course of this thread was very predicatable when certain people joined. 

*sigh*

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TheShadowLord07

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#159 TheShadowLord07
Member since 2006 • 23083 Posts

well thats one way to prisons more crowded :roll:

In their own home? I doubt they got arrested in privacy unless they were dealers.LJS9502_basic
wouldn't they get caught if they were smoking it with having loud music on at their homes?

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ad1x2

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#160 ad1x2
Member since 2005 • 8430 Posts

well thats one way to prisons more crowded :roll:

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] In their own home? I doubt they got arrested in privacy unless they were dealers.TheShadowLord07

wouldn't they get caught if they were smoking it with having loud music on at their homes?

If that was the case they were not very intelligent, it is almost like a bunch of underage high school kids having a kegger with the music blasting loud enough to make neighbors to call the cops. Anyway, simple possession is a misdemeanor unless they can prove intent to sell and in most cases you pay a fine and are done. According to the article the restriction applies to violent felons, not your average joe who just happened to get caught smoking a joint.
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AmazonTreeBoa

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#161 AmazonTreeBoa
Member since 2011 • 16745 Posts
That's just stupid as fnck. Criminals have to eat too. Take their food and they will still eat. They will just commit more crimes to make the money needed to eat. Not as if they will just up and say "well that's it, time to starve to death". No they will still eat at the expense of a higher crime rate.
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leviathan91

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#162 leviathan91
Member since 2007 • 7763 Posts

I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.

I still think it's unnecessary. Welfare isn't expensive and our convictions are already tough on violent offenders to a point where it's practically either a witch hunt or public shunning.

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m0zart

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#163 m0zart
Member since 2003 • 11580 Posts

I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.leviathan91

How did you come to that conclusion? Several of us mentioned that.

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leviathan91

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#164 leviathan91
Member since 2007 • 7763 Posts

[QUOTE="leviathan91"]I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.m0zart

How did you come to that conclusion? Several of us mentioned that.

I exaggerrated: I should have said most of the posters here haven't read the full article. It says it clearly.

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AmazonTreeBoa

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#165 AmazonTreeBoa
Member since 2011 • 16745 Posts

I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.

I leviathan91

Those are the last you want to take from. They will just kill your ass and take your food.

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ad1x2

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#166 ad1x2
Member since 2005 • 8430 Posts
[QUOTE="leviathan91"]

I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.

I AmazonTreeBoa

Those are the last you want to take from. They will just kill your ass and take your food.

When you think about it it is almost like the government is giving them protection payments so they don't rob people for food money. But in the end it is cheaper to give them food stamps than to put them back in jail for the eventual crimes they will commit to get food if they can't find an employer to take a chance on them.
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AmazonTreeBoa

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#167 AmazonTreeBoa
Member since 2011 • 16745 Posts

[QUOTE="AmazonTreeBoa"][QUOTE="leviathan91"]

I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.

I ad1x2

Those are the last you want to take from. They will just kill your ass and take your food.

find an employer to take a chance on them.

That's the biggest obstacle. Seems nobody ever wants to give them a chance and then wonders why they end up back in prison. Self preservation overrides any law. A person will do whatever it takes to survive and a criminal has less issue with crossing the line to get what they need. The more dangerous the criminal, the more willing they are to cross that line.

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Nibroc420

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#168 Nibroc420
Member since 2007 • 13571 Posts
[QUOTE="AmazonTreeBoa"][QUOTE="leviathan91"]

I don't think anyone actually read the article. It stated clearly that only extremely and dangerous felons are subjected to the ban.

I ad1x2

Those are the last you want to take from. They will just kill your ass and take your food.

When you think about it it is almost like the government is giving them protection payments so they don't rob people for food money. But in the end it is cheaper to give them food stamps than to put them back in jail for the eventual crimes they will commit to get food if they can't find an employer to take a chance on them.

They should have thought about that before raping/assaulting/murdering people.
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deactivated-5b1e62582e305

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#169 deactivated-5b1e62582e305
Member since 2004 • 30778 Posts

I wonder if you could make a case for this as a violation of the Eighth Amendment.

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THE_DRUGGIE

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#170 THE_DRUGGIE
Member since 2006 • 25110 Posts

If there's any good news, it's that most states decided to ignore that ban. Either way, why would anyone pass something like this if they were capable of long-term thought?

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k2theswiss

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#171 k2theswiss
Member since 2007 • 16599 Posts

other kick to some person face because of their history.

 

people with felons can't even get jobs even after YEARS in the past.  

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leviathan91

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#172 leviathan91
Member since 2007 • 7763 Posts

[QUOTE="ad1x2"][QUOTE="AmazonTreeBoa"]Those are the last you want to take from. They will just kill your ass and take your food.

Nibroc420

When you think about it it is almost like the government is giving them protection payments so they don't rob people for food money. But in the end it is cheaper to give them food stamps than to put them back in jail for the eventual crimes they will commit to get food if they can't find an employer to take a chance on them.

They should have thought about that before raping/assaulting/murdering people.

Yes after they've served their time in prison, put on probation, lost some of their rights (right to vote and second amendment rights) and placed on a registry, by losing their food stamps, they'll learn their lesson. 

Again, it's pointless and a non-issue. There are greater abuses on using taxpayer money compared to a unemployed felon using foodstamps.

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frannkzappa

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#173 frannkzappa
Member since 2012 • 3003 Posts

If only their was a modern day Australia we could ship our criminals to...that would solve everything.