Americans, Patriotism and Pearl Harbor

Pathetic people. Still living in WW2. USSR should have launched those missiles back in the 60s for the common good.Crimsader

Oh yeah, that statement isn't nearly as bad as the ones those ignorant people made.

:roll:

Once again. I understand all that transpired. We still killed civilians. It doesn't make it better to say "oh we only killed this many". They were still innocent and had nothing to do with all that went on.Skittles_McGee

And those US service men were most likely civilians before the Japanese coaxed us into war. So soldiers of a country defending itself are ok to slaughter but not civilians of the aggressor country?

well they did attack pearl harbor...

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

Considering that what I said is not only legal in Japan, but "accepted" as in you can buy a magazine with drawn children having sex on street corners as if it were a copy of the daily newspaper... I don't see the correlation?

Not to mention that it is obviously a bad joke in bad tastes... I don't believe an Earthquake hit Japan because of hentai... I believe an Earthquake hit Japan because the tectonic plates deep beneath the island chain rubbed against each other...

Buttons1990

Yeah apart from the fact that Fred Phelps and his inbred group actually believe what they are saying and actually believe that the US is being punished by god for allowing homosexuals to exist...

Yeah other than that, exactly the same I understand where you are coming from now...

By the way, your country was completely decimated after WWII (if your PSN tag is correct). I really think that you wouldn't have minded an atomic bomb being dropped on Berlin.

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"] Once again. I understand all that transpired. We still killed civilians. It doesn't make it better to say "oh we only killed this many". They were still innocent and had nothing to do with all that went on.HoolaHoopMan

And those US service men were most likely civilians before the Japanese coaxed us into war. So soldiers of a country defending itself are ok to slaughter but not civilians of the aggressor country?

Some of those comments read a bit too trollish, but if they're in seriousness and not in jest, then that's just silly.

also lol, people invoking "God", how christian (This part is sarcasm, in case you all jump on me.)

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Way to completely forget the 4 years of brutal fighting we did against the Japanese. Let's also totally forget the hundreds of civilians who jumped off of cliffs willingly just so they didn't surrender to American forces. How about the schools of civilians that the Japanese were teaching to fight with hand-to-hand combat after 5-6 years of propaganda brainwashing them. How about them giving bombs to their kids for when the allied tanks came ashore they could kamikaze the tanks...

The evidence was mounting that the Japanese were not going to surrender in a straight up fight. Taking the honor away from the fight caused them to surrender very quickly. It wasn't a good thing, but neither would be slaughtering millions of Japanese as they did everything they could defend their homelands.

This wasn't a quick "oh they bombed us at Pearl Harbor let's murder their civlians!" like you pretty much have stated. This was after countless battles between them and us observing their civilians on several occasions.

Wasdie

As it was said before we weren't strickly targeting civilians. If we really wanted to slaughter civilians we would have continued to fire bomb, carpet bomb, and reduce every major city to dust before unleashing any sort of atomic weapons.

The only other option was invade, where we would have been forced to slaughter even more. It was truely the lesser of two evils.

1. We didnt want to slaughter civilians

2. If we did want that then we would have killed more.

Wow...

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

Do you honestly believe the intention of the nuclear bomb dropping was to target and simply kill as many civilians as possible? That is the most ignorant comment I have ever heard... If we simply wanted to kill Japanese civilians we would have dropped a nuclear bomb on Tokyo.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were major industrial centers for the Japanese war machine, they were chosen because of their tactical importance to Japan's warfighting capabilities.

Buttons1990

Um.... lol... Yes... That was the intention of 9/11.

These statuses come from people called "idiots".

They exist in every country. America is no exception.

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"][QUOTE="Wasdie"]

Way to completely forget the 4 years of brutal fighting we did against the Japanese. Let's also totally forget the hundreds of civilians who jumped off of cliffs willingly just so they didn't surrender to American forces. How about the schools of civilians that the Japanese were teaching to fight with hand-to-hand combat after 5-6 years of propaganda brainwashing them. How about them giving bombs to their kids for when the allied tanks came ashore they could kamikaze the tanks...

The evidence was mounting that the Japanese were not going to surrender in a straight up fight. Taking the honor away from the fight caused them to surrender very quickly. It wasn't a good thing, but neither would be slaughtering millions of Japanese as they did everything they could defend their homelands.

This wasn't a quick "oh they bombed us at Pearl Harbor let's murder their civlians!" like you pretty much have stated. This was after countless battles between them and us observing their civilians on several occasions.

Wasdie

As it was said before we weren't strickly targeting civilians. If we really wanted to slaughter civilians we would have continued to fire bomb, carpet bomb, and reduce every major city to dust before unleashing any sort of atomic weapons.

The only other option was invade, where we would have been forced to slaughter even more. It was truely the lesser of two evils.

[QUOTE="HoolaHoopMan"]

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"] Once again. I understand all that transpired. We still killed civilians. It doesn't make it better to say "oh we only killed this many". They were still innocent and had nothing to do with all that went on.Skittles_McGee

And those US service men were most likely civilians before the Japanese coaxed us into war. So soldiers of a country defending itself are ok to slaughter but not civilians of the aggressor country?

Yeah and? The very city I lived in was bombed by the germans. But still I don't feel deep hatred towards them nor would I have wished a giant bomb to be dropped in berlin at that time. Because when you learn what events led up to this war...you understand both sides were wrong...Germany was punished too severly after WWI. I am a bit backtracking and offtopic here...but everyone is to blaim for Hitler and WWII. War is ugly.
I don't say America shouldn't have retaliated...an attack on your own ground is a legit reason to retaliate. I just don't like the way they retaliated.
If their aim was to take out the industries in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...they could have used regular bombs to destroy installaties and factories etc.
Destroy army compounds of the Japanese etc. That would have led to surrender too instead of making a crater out of 2 entire cities.

Locutus_Picard

as previously said, there was a lot of fighting before they even got to the Japanese home land, and it was clear that they wouldn't give up to American forces. The first bomb was dropped to make the Japanese surrender, when they didn't, they dropped the second one. It's unfortunate that it took 2 atomic bombs to make them surrender, but there probably would have been more civilian casualities if we tried to invade their land.

That said, the dropping of the bomb wasn;'t really the right thing, nor was it a wrong thing.

okay..first off these people are asshats....second..I bet most of the younger people posting that are trying to be funny...but failing miserably....Omni-Slash

It has nothing to do with being American or being "patriotic." It has to do with ignorant morons looking for an excuse to complain about foreign aid, which is funny, because I'm going to go ahead and say that the majority of people on that wall of posts get a complete tax return, if they're working at all.

To the TC:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was written by Messiahbolical- in another thread, but it is spot-on when it comes to threads like this one:

I don't mind Europe or Europeans at all. I actually love Europe. I DO however mind my country getting stereotyped and ridiculed by Europeans on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL Europeans hate on America... but the amount of blind hatred for us out there is just astounding. I can't even log onto the computer these days without coming across some kind of insulting comments about America by Europeans. It's constant. And these are usually the same people that call Americans ignorant or unaccepting. See the hypocrisy there? Most of these people have never even been to America to begin with and yet they insult us as if they live here and have had to put up with us on a daily basis.

Seriously, it seems like nobody gives America credit for anything positive we do anymore. We're no different than people in any other country, yet all we get is insulted everywhere we turn. It's really just getting old.

But you know what, I can't really stop anyone from hating us, can I? It's going to happen no matter what. So if you must hate us, then go ahead and hate us.

When it comes down to it though, the U.S. and most of Europe aren't enemies, so insulting one another is pointless.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You guys really need to tone down the blind hatred.

Yes, the guys who made the comments on youtube are idiots or just kids (more likely), but if you think that represents the U.S. then you need to open your mind a bit.

Also, who do you think will provide the most aid to Japan for this crisis. Yes, the U.S. as usual.

To the TC:

This was written by Messiahbolical- in another thread, but it is spot-on threads like this:

I don't mind Europe or Europeans at all. I actually love Europe. I DO however mind my country getting stereotyped and ridiculed by Europeans on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL Europeans hate on America... but the amount of blind hatred for us out there is just astounding. I can't even log onto the computer these days without coming across some kind of insulting comments about America by Europeans. It's constant. And these are usually the same people that call Americans ignorant or unaccepting. See the hypocrisy there? Most of these people have never even been to America to begin with and yet they insult us as if they live here and have had to put up with us on a daily basis.

Seriously, it seems like nobody gives America credit for anything positive we do anymore. We're no different than people in any other country, yet all we get is insulted everywhere we turn. It's really just getting old.

But you know what, I can't really stop anyone from hating us, can I? It's going to happen no matter what. So if you must hate us, then go ahead and hate us.

When it comes down to it though, the U.S. and most of Europe aren't enemies, so insulting one another is pointless.AFBrat77

The funny thing is that that post is generalizing in the same way TC's picture does.

Yeah and? The very city I lived in was bombed by the germans. But still I don't feel deep hatred towards them nor would I have wished a giant bomb to be dropped in berlin at that time. Because when you learn what events led up to this war...you understand both sides were wrong...Germany was punished too severly after WWI. I am a bit backtracking and offtopic here...but everyone is to blaim for Hitler and WWII. War is ugly.
I don't say America shouldn't have retaliated...an attack on your own ground is a legit reason to retaliate. I just don't like the way they retaliated.
If their aim was to take out the industries in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...they could have used regular bombs to destroy installaties and factories etc.
Destroy army compounds of the Japanese etc. That would have led to surrender too instead of making a crater out of 2 entire cities.

Locutus_Picard

I don't feel a deep hatred against the Japanese.

You've pretty much proved my point. You have said exactly what I've been saying. You are completely out of context. You have no idea how you would have felt if you would have seen your friends/family slaughtered by the Germans just like you have no idea how you would have felt afte 4 years of bloody war against another country. You can't. No matter what you say, you can't know what that is like.

Also now you're assuming in 1945 we have technologies to actually precision bomb targets, and the Japanese people aren't willing to die for their country. Two things you are completely wrong about. Japanese society in the 1930s and early 1940s was a total reversal of what it is today. The people were absolutely brainwashed to fight for their god (who was the emperor). On several of the Japanese islands, the US marines witnessed people jumping off of a cliff and mothers throwing their babies off of the cliffs instead of surrendering. They had no hope of winning but they refused to surrender. We saw this on multiple occasions and we couldn't stop it. We knew for a fact that an invasion would have cost the lives of millions of civilians as they would die instead of surrender.

Also just bomb the factories? We had been doing that, it's not nearly as effective as you think. Bombs back in the day were dummy bombs. You had 2 options, fly low and have a good line of sight to the target, then maybe you could land a 30% hit ratio of your bombs, or fly high and just carpet bomb the city and do pretty much the same as the atomic bombs did. However the first option would put them easily within the range of AAA fire (that's anti-aircraft guns) and we would lose most of the bombers before having an effect. Thus it would be pointless as our bombers would be shot down constantly.

The Atomic bombs did 2 things. They destroyed any factories and military installations in the areas. The second is they completely demoralized the people. We gave them several days in between dropping the bomb for a surrender. They didn't. By taking out the honor in dying for your god, the people had no reason to stand and fight anymore. They realized we would keep dropping these bombs until they were all dead. They had no choice but to surrender.

Of course we wouldn't keep dropping those bombs because they were extremely expensive and we only had 2 at the time. We would have been forced to invade and kill millions more ourselves. Not to mention the million allied soldiers that were estimated to die. If you do some research, fortress Japan makes Fortress Europe look like a Lego set. It would have been horrible.

It's so easy to say America is wrong when you didn't live during the time or understand any of the history.

[QUOTE="Locutus_Picard"]What do they teach in history ****s in America anyway?Elraptor

easy there bud, thats a critical piece of American history.

Ok here's my thing. The generation dominating Japan today isn't the one that bombed Pearl Harbor. To say future generations of people should pay for their elder's mistakes is stupid. I feel bad for what's happening in Japan and I hope they can get through this. If this was 1942, I would surely be pleased with the news, however this is 2011.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="Skittles_McGee"] I understand all the events that happened and nowhere did I say or imply it was a quick decision. What I did say is both sides did something wrong. No matter what happens, they attacked us without provocation and we murdered innocent people. Was it worth it? Maybe. But it was wrong.SkyWard20

As it was said before we weren't strickly targeting civilians. If we really wanted to slaughter civilians we would have continued to fire bomb, carpet bomb, and reduce every major city to dust before unleashing any sort of atomic weapons.

The only other option was invade, where we would have been forced to slaughter even more. It was truely the lesser of two evils.

There is, but they were training their civilians to fight the American soldiers. Classes during school sessions were basically PT and basic training for the kids. They would arm them with basic hand-to-hand weapons and tell them to fight and die for their god.

When I say millions of civilians would die in the fighting, it's not because they are caught in the crossfire, it's because they would have not surrendered and would have fought.

The atomic bombs more than payed back Japan's karma. If anything, it went a little overboard and we should be the ones getting hit by an earthquake...

[QUOTE="AFBrat77"]

To the TC:

This was written by Messiahbolical- in another thread, but it is spot-on threads like this:

I don't mind Europe or Europeans at all. I actually love Europe. I DO however mind my country getting stereotyped and ridiculed by Europeans on a regular basis. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ALL Europeans hate on America... but the amount of blind hatred for us out there is just astounding. I can't even log onto the computer these days without coming across some kind of insulting comments about America by Europeans. It's constant. And these are usually the same people that call Americans ignorant or unaccepting. See the hypocrisy there? Most of these people have never even been to America to begin with and yet they insult us as if they live here and have had to put up with us on a daily basis.

Seriously, it seems like nobody gives America credit for anything positive we do anymore. We're no different than people in any other country, yet all we get is insulted everywhere we turn. It's really just getting old.

But you know what, I can't really stop anyone from hating us, can I? It's going to happen no matter what. So if you must hate us, then go ahead and hate us.

When it comes down to it though, the U.S. and most of Europe aren't enemies, so insulting one another is pointless.kuraimen

The funny thing is that that post is generalizing in the same way TC's picture does.

not if you are American, that post is exactly right when it comes to what we see in these forums when it comes to Americans.

Spot-on.

This thread is just another one.

[QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

[QUOTE="kuraimen"] Do you honestly think that the intention of the 9/11 attacks was to target and simply kill as many civilians as possible? I could play this game all day...kuraimen

Um.... lol... Yes... That was the intention of 9/11.

*loud sigh*

Such ignorance.

Prepare to be enlightened.

al-Qaeda wants to restore the Islamic Caliphate... As in they want to the entire Muslim world united under a single Islamic government...

They know however, that this is impossible as of now because of western influences in the Middle East...

9/11 was meant to draw the US into war. The entire purpose of 9/11 was to kill as many Americans as possible so they were sure they would pull the US into a war.

A war that they know, is unwinnable.

Their plan will take generations... The purpose of it is to be a drain on the United States until it becomes financially unable to continue its influence in the Middle East.

This plan doesn't only invovle the United States though, it involves all western nations with interest in the Middle East, including the governements in the Middle East themselves... Osama bin Laden wants to destroy the Saudi royal family as much as if not more than he wants to remove the US from the Middle East...

In a sense, they don't want to destroy the United States... They simply want our interest out of the Middle East... And the means to that end is causing us such a financial, political, and casualty burden that we have no choice but to leave.

Isn't Hiroshima and Nagasaki payback? Even the guys that drop the bomb regret doing it. The people that commented"Karma" or "Payback" need to be $&#* slapped hard. How can you be happy that millions of people lost their homes, and relatives? That I dont understand. I love how they involve God and Nature with the word Payback. This is sickening at its finest. They should watch out for karma.

[QUOTE="Locutus_Picard"]
Yeah and? The very city I lived in was bombed by the germans. But still I don't feel deep hatred towards them nor would I have wished a giant bomb to be dropped in berlin at that time. Because when you learn what events led up to this war...you understand both sides were wrong...Germany was punished too severly after WWI. I am a bit backtracking and offtopic here...but everyone is to blaim for Hitler and WWII. War is ugly.
I don't say America shouldn't have retaliated...an attack on your own ground is a legit reason to retaliate. I just don't like the way they retaliated.
If their aim was to take out the industries in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...they could have used regular bombs to destroy installaties and factories etc.
Destroy army compounds of the Japanese etc. That would have led to surrender too instead of making a crater out of 2 entire cities.

Wasdie

I don't feel a deep hatred against the Japanese.

You've pretty much proved my point. You have said exactly what I've been saying. You are completely out of context. You have no idea how you would have felt if you would have seen your friends/family slaughtered by the Germans just like you have no idea how you would have felt afte 4 years of bloody war against another country. You can't. No matter what you say, you can't know what that is like.

Also now you're assuming in 1945 we have technologies to actually precision bomb targets, and the Japanese people aren't willing to die for their country. Two things you are completely wrong about. Japanese society in the 1930s and early 1940s was a total reversal of what it is today. The people were absolutely brainwashed to fight for their god (who was the emperor). On several of the Japanese islands, the US marines witnessed people jumping off of a cliff and mothers throwing their babies off of the cliffs instead of surrendering. They had no hope of winning but they refused to surrender. We saw this on multiple occasions and we couldn't stop it. We knew for a fact that an invasion would have cost the lives of millions of civilians as they would die instead of surrender.

Also just bomb the factories? We had been doing that, it's not nearly as effective as you think. Bombs back in the day were dummy bombs. You had 2 options, fly low and have a good line of sight to the target, then maybe you could land a 30% hit ratio of your bombs, or fly high and just carpet bomb the city and do pretty much the same as the atomic bombs did. However the first option would put them easily within the range of AAA fire (that's anti-aircraft guns) and we would lose most of the bombers before having an effect. Thus it would be pointless as our bombers would be shot down constantly.

The Atomic bombs did 2 things. They destroyed any factories and military installations in the areas. The second is they completely demoralized the people. We gave them several days in between dropping the bomb for a surrender. They didn't. By taking out the honor in dying for your god, the people had no reason to stand and fight anymore. They realized we would keep dropping these bombs until they were all dead. They had no choice but to surrender.

Of course we wouldn't keep dropping those bombs because they were extremely expensive and we only had 2 at the time. We would have been forced to invade and kill millions more ourselves. Not to mention the million allied soldiers that were estimated to die. If you do some research, fortress Japan makes Fortress Europe look like a Lego set. It would have been horrible.

It's so easy to say America is wrong when you didn't live during the time or understand any of the history.

It is all a matter of perception. Many people in the Middle East has been directly affected by american foreign policies and their search for oil for many many years. Most of us wouldn't know what it is like to live under such threats and conditions, of being the war games field of the world's superpowers. So does this justifies these people becoming terrorists and killing innocent people living in those superpowers? I don't know but I'll say it is wrong and if you justify one of these types of wrongness then you have to justify all of them.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"][QUOTE="Buttons1990"]

Um.... lol... Yes... That was the intention of 9/11.

Buttons1990

*loud sigh*

Such ignorance.

Prepare to be enlightened.

al-Qaeda wants to restore the Islamic Caliphate... As in they want to the entire Muslim world united under a single Islamic government...

They know however, that this is impossible as of now because of western influences in the Middle East...

9/11 was meant to draw the US into war. The entire purpose of 9/11 was to kill as many Americans as possible so they were sure they would pull the US into a war.

A war that they know, is unwinnable.

Their plan will take generations... The purpose of it is to be a drain on the United States until it becomes financially unable to continue its influence in the Middle East.

This plan doesn't only invovle the United States though, it involves all western nations with interest in the Middle East, including the governements in the Middle East themselves... Osama bin Laden wants to destroy the Saudi royal family as much as if not more than he wants to remove the US from the Middle East...

In a sense, they don't want to destroy the United States... They simply want our interest out of the Middle East... And the means to that end is causing us such a financial, political, and casualty burden that we have no choice but to leave.

Well thanks for supporting my pont then. Right there there's another ulterior motive other than just killing civilians. Still it doesn't make it right just because they have a motive.

I pity every one of those a*******.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="Locutus_Picard"]
Yeah and? The very city I lived in was bombed by the germans. But still I don't feel deep hatred towards them nor would I have wished a giant bomb to be dropped in berlin at that time. Because when you learn what events led up to this war...you understand both sides were wrong...Germany was punished too severly after WWI. I am a bit backtracking and offtopic here...but everyone is to blaim for Hitler and WWII. War is ugly.
I don't say America shouldn't have retaliated...an attack on your own ground is a legit reason to retaliate. I just don't like the way they retaliated.
If their aim was to take out the industries in Hiroshima and Nagasaki...they could have used regular bombs to destroy installaties and factories etc.
Destroy army compounds of the Japanese etc. That would have led to surrender too instead of making a crater out of 2 entire cities.

kuraimen

I don't feel a deep hatred against the Japanese.

You've pretty much proved my point. You have said exactly what I've been saying. You are completely out of context. You have no idea how you would have felt if you would have seen your friends/family slaughtered by the Germans just like you have no idea how you would have felt afte 4 years of bloody war against another country. You can't. No matter what you say, you can't know what that is like.

Also now you're assuming in 1945 we have technologies to actually precision bomb targets, and the Japanese people aren't willing to die for their country. Two things you are completely wrong about. Japanese society in the 1930s and early 1940s was a total reversal of what it is today. The people were absolutely brainwashed to fight for their god (who was the emperor). On several of the Japanese islands, the US marines witnessed people jumping off of a cliff and mothers throwing their babies off of the cliffs instead of surrendering. They had no hope of winning but they refused to surrender. We saw this on multiple occasions and we couldn't stop it. We knew for a fact that an invasion would have cost the lives of millions of civilians as they would die instead of surrender.

Also just bomb the factories? We had been doing that, it's not nearly as effective as you think. Bombs back in the day were dummy bombs. You had 2 options, fly low and have a good line of sight to the target, then maybe you could land a 30% hit ratio of your bombs, or fly high and just carpet bomb the city and do pretty much the same as the atomic bombs did. However the first option would put them easily within the range of AAA fire (that's anti-aircraft guns) and we would lose most of the bombers before having an effect. Thus it would be pointless as our bombers would be shot down constantly.

The Atomic bombs did 2 things. They destroyed any factories and military installations in the areas. The second is they completely demoralized the people. We gave them several days in between dropping the bomb for a surrender. They didn't. By taking out the honor in dying for your god, the people had no reason to stand and fight anymore. They realized we would keep dropping these bombs until they were all dead. They had no choice but to surrender.

Of course we wouldn't keep dropping those bombs because they were extremely expensive and we only had 2 at the time. We would have been forced to invade and kill millions more ourselves. Not to mention the million allied soldiers that were estimated to die. If you do some research, fortress Japan makes Fortress Europe look like a Lego set. It would have been horrible.

It's so easy to say America is wrong when you didn't live during the time or understand any of the history.

It is all a matter of perception. Many people in the Middle East has been directly affected by american foreign policies and their search for oil for many many years. Most of us wouldn't know what it is like to live under such threats and conditions, of being the war games field of the world's superpowers. So does this justifies these people becoming terrorists and killing innocent people living in those superpowers? I don't know but I'll say it is wrong and if you justify one of these types of wrongness then you have to justify all of them.

I'm sure most of them wouldn't mind invading America or something bad happening to America. Why do you think so many turn to the Taliban and other terrorist organizations. They promise some sort of retaliation onto America and the rest of the west. They are justified joining these organizations. Little do they know that we are really going after these organizations and it's the fight between the two and their tactics which get civilians involved and get innocent people killed, which makes more want to join these organizations. It's a bad cycle and I'm surprised even after the old administration left, the new one still hasn't changed up our tactics. It's quite sad.

I'm completely understanding it's perception, which why saying 70 years after it happend that it was the wrong move and there are better ones to make is wrong, especially when the alternatives were crappy.

Isn't Hiroshima and Nagasaki payback? Even the guys that drop the bomb regret doing it. The people that commented"Karma" or "Payback" need to be $&#* slapped hard. How can you be happy that millions of people lost their homes, and relatives? That I dont understand. I love how they involve God and Nature with the word Payback. This is sickening at its finest. They should watch out for karma.

VensInferno

Are some of you so naive when it comes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The bombs were dropped to prevent the loss of 100's of thousands of American lives.

The targets were chosen as areas to soften up if the time came to invade Japan. This is WAR people. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor was a huge blunder by the Japanese.

We pleaded for Japan's surrender prior to dropping the bombs....despite having dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, the stubborn Japanese government refused to listen. If anyone's to blame its Hirohito and his gang.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

AFBrat77

People always seem to forget that America gives more in aid every year than the rest of the world combined...

If you are paying attention to a load of massive trolls and idiots, I'd suggest you cease. These people are dumb, plain and simple, and do not in any way represent America.

[QUOTE="kuraimen"]

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

I don't feel a deep hatred against the Japanese.

You've pretty much proved my point. You have said exactly what I've been saying. You are completely out of context. You have no idea how you would have felt if you would have seen your friends/family slaughtered by the Germans just like you have no idea how you would have felt afte 4 years of bloody war against another country. You can't. No matter what you say, you can't know what that is like.

Also now you're assuming in 1945 we have technologies to actually precision bomb targets, and the Japanese people aren't willing to die for their country. Two things you are completely wrong about. Japanese society in the 1930s and early 1940s was a total reversal of what it is today. The people were absolutely brainwashed to fight for their god (who was the emperor). On several of the Japanese islands, the US marines witnessed people jumping off of a cliff and mothers throwing their babies off of the cliffs instead of surrendering. They had no hope of winning but they refused to surrender. We saw this on multiple occasions and we couldn't stop it. We knew for a fact that an invasion would have cost the lives of millions of civilians as they would die instead of surrender.

Also just bomb the factories? We had been doing that, it's not nearly as effective as you think. Bombs back in the day were dummy bombs. You had 2 options, fly low and have a good line of sight to the target, then maybe you could land a 30% hit ratio of your bombs, or fly high and just carpet bomb the city and do pretty much the same as the atomic bombs did. However the first option would put them easily within the range of AAA fire (that's anti-aircraft guns) and we would lose most of the bombers before having an effect. Thus it would be pointless as our bombers would be shot down constantly.

The Atomic bombs did 2 things. They destroyed any factories and military installations in the areas. The second is they completely demoralized the people. We gave them several days in between dropping the bomb for a surrender. They didn't. By taking out the honor in dying for your god, the people had no reason to stand and fight anymore. They realized we would keep dropping these bombs until they were all dead. They had no choice but to surrender.

Of course we wouldn't keep dropping those bombs because they were extremely expensive and we only had 2 at the time. We would have been forced to invade and kill millions more ourselves. Not to mention the million allied soldiers that were estimated to die. If you do some research, fortress Japan makes Fortress Europe look like a Lego set. It would have been horrible.

It's so easy to say America is wrong when you didn't live during the time or understand any of the history.

Wasdie

It is all a matter of perception. Many people in the Middle East has been directly affected by american foreign policies and their search for oil for many many years. Most of us wouldn't know what it is like to live under such threats and conditions, of being the war games field of the world's superpowers. So does this justifies these people becoming terrorists and killing innocent people living in those superpowers? I don't know but I'll say it is wrong and if you justify one of these types of wrongness then you have to justify all of them.

I'm sure most of them wouldn't mind invading America or something bad happening to America. Why do you think so many turn to the Taliban and other terrorist organizations. They promise some sort of retaliation onto America and the rest of the west. They are justified joining these organizations. Little do they know that we are really going after these organizations and it's the fight between the two and their tactics which get civilians involved and get innocent people killed, which makes more want to join these organizations. It's a bad cycle and I'm surprised even after the old administration left, the new one still hasn't changed up our tactics. It's quite sad.

I'm completely understanding it's perception, which why saying 70 years after it happend that it was the wrong move and there are better ones to make is wrong, especially when the alternatives were crappy.

[QUOTE="VensInferno"]

Isn't Hiroshima and Nagasaki payback? Even the guys that drop the bomb regret doing it. The people that commented"Karma" or "Payback" need to be $&#* slapped hard. How can you be happy that millions of people lost their homes, and relatives? That I dont understand. I love how they involve God and Nature with the word Payback. This is sickening at its finest. They should watch out for karma.

AFBrat77

Are some of you so naive when it comes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The bombs were dropped to prevent the loss of 100's of thousands of American lives.

The targets were chosen as areas to soften up if the time came to invade Japan. This is WAR people. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor was a huge blunder by the Japanese.

We pleaded for Japan's surrender prior to dropping the bombs....despite having dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, the stubborn Japanese government refused to listen. If anyone's to blame its Hirohito and his gang.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

Im still in shock mode that there are people who enjoy the death of thousands of people simply because they think its payback.

I don't know, I can't find myself saying that 9/11 was the right move no matter how much people in the Middle East has suffered from american influence and most people here will justifiably jump over me for saying that. I find equally disturbing to call the drop of atomic bombs in Japan the right move.kuraimen

You have to realize with Japan there was no right move, there was the least costly option. We picked it, it worked. Japan lived on.

[QUOTE="AFBrat77"]

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

Wasdie

People always seem to forget that America gives more in aid every year than the rest of the world combined...

absolutely, conveniently forgotten by those with blind hatred towards the U.S.

[QUOTE="Wasdie"]

[QUOTE="AFBrat77"]

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

AFBrat77

People always seem to forget that America gives more in aid every year than the rest of the world combined...

absolutely, conveniently forgotten by those with blind hatred towards the U.S.

Even though there are bad things we have done in the past, its the past. No point in talking about it.

[QUOTE="AFBrat77"]

[QUOTE="VensInferno"]

Isn't Hiroshima and Nagasaki payback? Even the guys that drop the bomb regret doing it. The people that commented"Karma" or "Payback" need to be $&#* slapped hard. How can you be happy that millions of people lost their homes, and relatives? That I dont understand. I love how they involve God and Nature with the word Payback. This is sickening at its finest. They should watch out for karma.

VensInferno

Are some of you so naive when it comes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The bombs were dropped to prevent the loss of 100's of thousands of American lives.

The targets were chosen as areas to soften up if the time came to invade Japan. This is WAR people. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor was a huge blunder by the Japanese.

We pleaded for Japan's surrender prior to dropping the bombs....despite having dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, the stubborn Japanese government refused to listen. If anyone's to blame its Hirohito and his gang.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

Im still in shock mode that there are people who enjoy the death of thousands of people simply because they think its payback.

The posts from youtube are from idiots or more likely kids who don't even really understand the world yet, their comments can be disregarded and ignored.

They don't represent how adult Americans think in any way, shape, or form.

Hell, I'm man enough to admit it, I had tears in my eyes when I saw some of the videos on youtube with people in cars being washed away to their death :(

Guarantee plenty of Americans did.

[QUOTE="VensInferno"]

[QUOTE="AFBrat77"]

Are some of you so naive when it comes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The bombs were dropped to prevent the loss of 100's of thousands of American lives.

The targets were chosen as areas to soften up if the time came to invade Japan. This is WAR people. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor was a huge blunder by the Japanese.

We pleaded for Japan's surrender prior to dropping the bombs....despite having dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, the stubborn Japanese government refused to listen. If anyone's to blame its Hirohito and his gang.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

AFBrat77

Im still in shock mode that there are people who enjoy the death of thousands of people simply because they think its payback.

The posts from youtube are from idiots or more likely kids who don't even really understand the world yet, their comments can be disregarded and ignored.

They don't represent how adult Americans think in any way, shape, or form.

Hell, I'm man enough to admit it, I had tears in my eyes when I saw some of the videos on youtube with people in cars being washed away to their death :(

Guarantee plenty of Americans did.

[QUOTE="VensInferno"]

Isn't Hiroshima and Nagasaki payback? Even the guys that drop the bomb regret doing it. The people that commented"Karma" or "Payback" need to be $&#* slapped hard. How can you be happy that millions of people lost their homes, and relatives? That I dont understand. I love how they involve God and Nature with the word Payback. This is sickening at its finest. They should watch out for karma.

AFBrat77

Are some of you so naive when it comes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The bombs were dropped to prevent the loss of 100's of thousands of American lives.

The targets were chosen as areas to soften up if the time came to invade Japan. This is WAR people.

We pleaded for Japan's surrender prior to dropping the bombs....despite having dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, the stubborn Japanese government refused to listen. If anyone's to blame its Hirohito and his gang.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

100's of thousands? That seems really excessive, considering the state of the Japanese imperial forces at the time of the atomic bombings. Without air superiority in their own country, their navy all but outnumbered and outclassed, and relentless fire-bombs on targets on land (that links with the first). Even General Marshall's estimate in 1945 didn't put such an absurdly high number on it, saying roughly that American casualties wouldn't exceed 31,000 in the first month (McWilliams & Piotrowski: 2009, page 17). This estimate of course, doesn't take into account the situation of the Japanese military either at the time, there was a tendency to overestimate their capability and strength, and it's concerning that this still continues.

Also, the negotiations, according to McWilliams and Piotrowski on the very same page, were rather doomed due to the conflict of demands. The USA wanted an unconditional surrender, and the Japanese wanted an assurance that the holy institution of the Emperor would be guaranteed in defeat. It also seems in the Potsdam Proclamation of 1945, this is evident, with no mention to Hirohito or the institution of the Emperor.

I'm not in any real position, or location to gather information to assess whether the Japanese would've surrendered before the bombings if the institution was guaranteed, but it seems to have been of the utmost importance to the Japanese. I don't see how the Japanese government was solely to blame, or the only one acting stubbornly in the diplomatic negotiations.

now, I'm out of this thread, god help anyone who stays in it

edit: It's also suggested that Washington knew the urgency of the Japanese government in seeking to use the USSR as a mediator, since no formal diplomatic ties existed between Japan and the USA then, it's likely that Japan's government was really interested in a surrender in 1945. Though this example doesn't do that point justice, it remains an aside to ponder.

[QUOTE="AFBrat77"]

[QUOTE="VensInferno"]

Isn't Hiroshima and Nagasaki payback? Even the guys that drop the bomb regret doing it. The people that commented"Karma" or "Payback" need to be $&#* slapped hard. How can you be happy that millions of people lost their homes, and relatives? That I dont understand. I love how they involve God and Nature with the word Payback. This is sickening at its finest. They should watch out for karma.

T_P_O

Are some of you so naive when it comes to Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

The bombs were dropped to prevent the loss of 100's of thousands of American lives.

The targets were chosen as areas to soften up if the time came to invade Japan. This is WAR people.

We pleaded for Japan's surrender prior to dropping the bombs....despite having dropped incendiary bombs on Tokyo, the stubborn Japanese government refused to listen. If anyone's to blame its Hirohito and his gang.

What everyone seems to forget is how we built Japan back again after the war, and that we are helping the Japanese more than any other country when it comes to this earthquake.

100's of thousands? That seems really excessive, considering the state of the Japanese imperial forces at the time of the atomic bombings.

Here's something to read about Operation: Downfall

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/operation_downfall.htm

Dropping the atomic bombs was the right move.