Apache Pilot Slammed For Singing While Gunning People Down

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Slow_Show

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#51 Slow_Show
Member since 2011 • 2018 Posts

The army are supposed to be professional killers, not just pain old psychotic killers.

toast_burner

That's kind of a misnomer though, as being a professional killer necessarily requires some degree of psychopathy (considering how the other guy might feel about being shot or questioning the morality of orders not being particularly desired traits in combat). For better or worse, that this guy has the same mindset when killing as an office worker has when filling out TPS reports is sort of the epitome of being a professional killer.

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Netherscourge

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#52 Netherscourge
Member since 2003 • 16364 Posts

Unprofessional and disturbing.

He should have fired his rockets and returned to base to await his next mission.

Making it into a joke or a game is disturbing and probably gives you an idea of how his life is going to end up once he's out of the service...

Dude has PTSD written all over him - I would not want to be around him when he finishes his tour and goes home.

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#53 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Happens to doctors, fire fighters, and police workers. When you are routinely around death and dying, they seem to make light of things. They make jokes and comments that could be considered tasteless all the time. But when they see this stuff on a daily basis, I guess it takes the shock value away.

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MacBoomStick

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#54 MacBoomStick
Member since 2011 • 1822 Posts

How many movies or video games are there where people are singing in war or saying "Nice shot" and crap like that? This shouldn't bother anybody. Its a fvcking war. The pilots were ordered to take out the target. If the insurgents had shot down the pilots they would be praising allah and fvcking dancing.

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mattisgod01

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#55 mattisgod01
Member since 2005 • 3476 Posts

People seem to be very deluded when it comes to the reality of war. Just because they are singing or saying "Nice" doesn't mean anything. The Idea is to distance yourself from the act of killing, If you become to attached and too aware of what you are doing it will make them ineffective at their job and far more vulnerable to psychological trauma which is disproportionately high among members of the military who have served in combat zones. It's easy for people whose only vision of war is from behind a computer or TV to be shocked and disgusted when their unrealistic idea of what their soldiers are like, Some idea of noble knights in shinning armour who protect the weak and uphold justice. The truth is they are just people, mostly very young, Who are sent to seriously screwed up places and forced to witness things most other people couldn't imagine and do things that they would otherwise believe unthinkable, while everyone else is living in their nice safe bubble which is the first world.

Believe it or not but killing doesn't come easy to most people, Right back to the American civil war and likely well before that Generals were aware of the difficulty in not just training their soldiers to be efficient at killing the enemy but conditioning them to do it when another human being was at the other end of a barrel and not just an inanimate target on a range. It was not rare after a battle to find rifles stacked with bullets that were not fired, a dozen rounds that were loaded but not discharged. Soldiers were trained to go through the motions but when it came to pulling the trigger and killing someone they did not know, Far more then most people know did not have the will to do it, so they just go through the motions of loading powder and bullet, shouldering the rifle and not firing, loading powder and bullet, shouldering the rifle and not firing. Until the battle was over or they died. they managed to solve this problem fairly well by the Bohr war and leading into WW1 by dehumanizing the enemy, That allowed soldiers some degree of distance between the reality of what they where doing but even then bayonet charges brought the reality right back again but by then the fear and survival instinct tended to kick in when you were 2 feet from the man who would kill you.

When soldiers appear to be passive when it comes to killing it's not because they don't care or do not understand what they are doing, It is because at the end of the day they are the ones forced to kill and they don't have the luxury of putting their actions and what they witness to the back of their mind and forget about it the next day like everyone else who criticizes them can. They can't afford to be too emotionally involved in the work because they are not that different from everyone else, Good people forced to do bad things and live with their actions.

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Netherscourge

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#56 Netherscourge
Member since 2003 • 16364 Posts

People seem to be very deluded when it comes to the reality of war. Just because they are singing or saying "Nice" doesn't mean anything. The Idea is to distance yourself from the act of killing, If you become to attached and too aware of what you are doing it will make them ineffective at their job and far more vulnerable to psychological trauma which is disproportionately high among members of the military who have served in combat zones. It's easy for people whose only vision of war is from behind a computer or TV to be shocked and disgusted when their unrealistic idea of what their soldiers are like, Some idea of noble knights in shinning armour who protect the weak and uphold justice. The truth is they are just people, mostly very young, Who are sent to seriously screwed up places and forced to witness things most other people couldn't imagine and do things that they would otherwise believe unthinkable, while everyone else is living in their nice safe bubble which is the first world.

Believe it or not but killing doesn't come easy to most people, Right back to the American civil war and likely well before that Generals were aware of the difficulty in not just training their soldiers to be efficient at killing the enemy but conditioning them to do it when another human being was at the other end of a barrel and not just an inanimate target on a range. It was not rare after a battle to find rifles stacked with bullets that were not fired, a dozen rounds that were loaded but not discharged. Soldiers were trained to go through the motions but when it came to pulling the trigger and killing someone they did not know, Far more then most people know did not have the will to do it, so they just go through the motions of loading powder and bullet, shouldering the rifle and not firing, loading powder and bullet, shouldering the rifle and not firing. Until the battle was over or they died. they managed to solve this problem fairly well by the Bohr war and leading into WW1 by dehumanizing the enemy, That allowed soldiers some degree of distance between the reality of what they where doing but even then bayonet charges brought the reality right back again but by then the fear and survival instinct tended to kick in when you were 2 feet from the man who would kill you.

When soldiers appear to be passive when it comes to killing it's not because they don't care or do not understand what they are doing, It is because at the end of the day they are the ones forced to kill and they don't have the luxury of putting their actions and what they witness to the back of their mind and forget about it the next day like everyone else who criticizes them can. They can't afford to be too emotionally involved in the work because they are not that different from everyone else, Good people forced to do bad things and live with their actions.

mattisgod01

You're wrong.

PTSD is a direct result of becomming desensitized to violent, dramatic and/or disturbing situaitons. If you're singing happy tunes while killing people, regardless of the situation, you're probably not going to end up well once you leave the battlefield and return to a peacful environment.

He doesn't have to FEEL passive while killing insurgents - however, he does need to maintain a composure of professionalism.

If he has to sing to deal with this situaiton he's in, he's already in trouble mentally.

NOTE - I'm not saying he should be PUNISHED - I'm saying he needs some help

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THE_DRUGGIE

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#57 THE_DRUGGIE
Member since 2006 • 25110 Posts

The guy was really off tune.

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nocoolnamejim

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#58 nocoolnamejim
Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

The guy was really off tune.

THE_DRUGGIE
FINALLY! Someone hitting upon the real travesty and addressing the real issue here.
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deactivated-598fc45371265

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#59 deactivated-598fc45371265
Member since 2008 • 13247 Posts

Hey I just met you and this is crazy but here's a hellfire missile so call me maybe.

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deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#60 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

PTSD is not a direct result of being densensitized to violence. PTSD occurs when people suffer a severe, anxiety producing event - usually a life threatening situation.

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Razor-Lazor

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#61 Razor-Lazor
Member since 2009 • 12763 Posts
Hey man, that's not okay! If you sing during it, then the killing of others is just made to look unimportant!
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ad1x2

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#62 ad1x2
Member since 2005 • 8430 Posts

This reminds me of that movie:

"They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write f**k on their airplanes because it is obscene."

It's ridiculous that they question the morality of singing while killing people and not the act of killing itself.

Masculus

I find certain policies funny because of the irony. Troops are expect to either kill the enemy or support operations that may result in the death of the enemy. But when it's all said and done those same troops are prevented by numerous regulations to even use profanity and could be charged under the UCMJ for doing so if their commanders wanted to push the issue.

As for the story itself, war is always going to be messy. You can't have a clean war no matter how you may try. Also, when you look at such videos as the so-called "Collateral Murder" video it's easy for people to take only part of the picture and make an incorrect assumption on the situation. Especially if the person publishing the video edited out parts to further an agenda.

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lo_Pine

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#63 lo_Pine
Member since 2012 • 4978 Posts
^_o Now that is a guy I'd say has some serious mental problems. Hopefully the guy is just so out of it he doesn't even realize what he's doing, when he did that. Because, then he doesn't realize or understand the fact that he is ending people's lives. The key word is people. If he did know what he was doing then that is a truly evil man.
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sexyweapons

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#64 sexyweapons
Member since 2009 • 5302 Posts

if it was me I probably would have sung "Another one bites the dust"

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#65 Bane_09
Member since 2010 • 3394 Posts

This reminds me of that movie:

"They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write f**k on their airplanes because it is obscene."

It's ridiculous that they question the morality of singing while killing people and not the act of killing itself.

Masculus

This^

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pspdseagle

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#66 pspdseagle
Member since 2007 • 3307 Posts
I hope some psychopath gets him one day and kills him whilst singing that. Would be brilliant.
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WhiteKnight77

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#67 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

if it was me I probably would have sung "Another one bites the dust"

sexyweapons

ROFL

Seriously, I see no problem with it and would probably have done something similar. He did his job and that is what counts. If it prevented infantry from getting blown up, then he succeeded in doing his job.

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DraugenCP

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#68 DraugenCP
Member since 2006 • 8486 Posts

This reminds me of that movie:

"They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write f**k on their airplanes because it is obscene."

It's ridiculous that they question the morality of singing while killing people and not the act of killing itself.

Masculus



Basically.

What I wonder most at this point is whether or not the people killed in that video were actually innocent farmers as is claimed. This question alone renders the whole discussion on the singing completely irrelevant.

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#69 DraugenCP
Member since 2006 • 8486 Posts

I hope some psychopath gets him one day and kills him whilst singing that. Would be brilliant.pspdseagle


You call someone a psychopath then openly claim you hope for someone to get murdered?

Ironic.

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#70 mattisgod01
Member since 2005 • 3476 Posts

[QUOTE="mattisgod01"]

People seem to be very deluded when it comes to the reality of war. Just because they are singing or saying "Nice" doesn't mean anything. The Idea is to distance yourself from the act of killing, If you become to attached and too aware of what you are doing it will make them ineffective at their job and far more vulnerable to psychological trauma which is disproportionately high among members of the military who have served in combat zones. It's easy for people whose only vision of war is from behind a computer or TV to be shocked and disgusted when their unrealistic idea of what their soldiers are like, Some idea of noble knights in shinning armour who protect the weak and uphold justice. The truth is they are just people, mostly very young, Who are sent to seriously screwed up places and forced to witness things most other people couldn't imagine and do things that they would otherwise believe unthinkable, while everyone else is living in their nice safe bubble which is the first world.

Believe it or not but killing doesn't come easy to most people, Right back to the American civil war and likely well before that Generals were aware of the difficulty in not just training their soldiers to be efficient at killing the enemy but conditioning them to do it when another human being was at the other end of a barrel and not just an inanimate target on a range. It was not rare after a battle to find rifles stacked with bullets that were not fired, a dozen rounds that were loaded but not discharged. Soldiers were trained to go through the motions but when it came to pulling the trigger and killing someone they did not know, Far more then most people know did not have the will to do it, so they just go through the motions of loading powder and bullet, shouldering the rifle and not firing, loading powder and bullet, shouldering the rifle and not firing. Until the battle was over or they died. they managed to solve this problem fairly well by the Bohr war and leading into WW1 by dehumanizing the enemy, That allowed soldiers some degree of distance between the reality of what they where doing but even then bayonet charges brought the reality right back again but by then the fear and survival instinct tended to kick in when you were 2 feet from the man who would kill you.

When soldiers appear to be passive when it comes to killing it's not because they don't care or do not understand what they are doing, It is because at the end of the day they are the ones forced to kill and they don't have the luxury of putting their actions and what they witness to the back of their mind and forget about it the next day like everyone else who criticizes them can. They can't afford to be too emotionally involved in the work because they are not that different from everyone else, Good people forced to do bad things and live with their actions.

Netherscourge

You're wrong.

PTSD is a direct result of becomming desensitized to violent, dramatic and/or disturbing situaitons. If you're singing happy tunes while killing people, regardless of the situation, you're probably not going to end up well once you leave the battlefield and return to a peacful environment.

He doesn't have to FEEL passive while killing insurgents - however, he does need to maintain a composure of professionalism.

If he has to sing to deal with this situaiton he's in, he's already in trouble mentally.

NOTE - I'm not saying he should be PUNISHED - I'm saying he needs some help

PTSD is not the direct result of anything specific, It varies from person to person and situation to situation, Ultimately it is the result of stress overwhelming someone psychologically, By simply viewing so much death people will naturally become desensitized to it, That goes for pretty much anything someone is exposed to enough of. Being desensitized to something that would normally be shocking is not necessarily healthy or a good sign, As we still don't know the methods the brain uses to achieve it and what degree those methods affect the persons greater psychology. Shell shock in WW1 was first widely viewed as mere weakness and cowardice in the people who displayed the symptoms but we now know it to be a case of PTSD. While they appeared to become desensitized to what was going on around them they became desensitized to just about everything and lost not just the will to fight but the will to get up and do anything.

I'm not disagreeing that their passive attitude may be a sign of mental stress, i'm not qualified to make that assessment. Apaches are not built to provide food and medical supplies, They are built to destroy the enemy and they are extremely effective at doing it, The men and women who pilot them are under no illusions of what they are expected to do and they know they will likely have to do it many times. Professionalism in their line of work means doing their job time and time again to the best of their ability and within the parameters they are assigned with. If they choose to sing and compliment each other while doing it then so be it, I'm not going to criticize them for that. But they know exactly what they are doing, Better then anyone else.

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IPWNDU2

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#71 IPWNDU2
Member since 2006 • 2535 Posts

I hope some psychopath gets him one day and kills him whilst singing that. Would be brilliant.pspdseagle

I hope some psychopath gets you while saying whilst

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PlanetJosh

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#72 PlanetJosh
Member since 2012 • 25 Posts
Maybe for the next time he'll sing "I fought the law and the law won". It would only take 3 or 4 seconds to sing that chorus. Of couse the pilot wouldn't mean himself as the lawbreaker, it would be directed at the drug farmers below.
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Necrifer

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#73 Necrifer
Member since 2010 • 10629 Posts

Breakin' rocks in the hot sun

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#74 MacBoomStick
Member since 2011 • 1822 Posts

[QUOTE="Masculus"]

This reminds me of that movie:

"They train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write f**k on their airplanes because it is obscene."

It's ridiculous that they question the morality of singing while killing people and not the act of killing itself.

DraugenCP



Basically.

What I wonder most at this point is whether or not the people killed in that video were actually innocent farmers as is claimed. This question alone renders the whole discussion on the singing completely irrelevant.

As far as he knew they were insurgents so it wouldn't mater anyways.
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#75 pspdseagle
Member since 2007 • 3307 Posts

[QUOTE="pspdseagle"]I hope some psychopath gets him one day and kills him whilst singing that. Would be brilliant.DraugenCP



You call someone a psychopath then openly claim you hope for someone to get murdered?

Ironic.

Couldn't kill a fly but that does pi$$ me off a bit. Take it as you will.

It would be a good end to a movie.

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bigfoot2045

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#76 bigfoot2045
Member since 2012 • 732 Posts

My guess would be that most people in the military right now are basically sociopaths. We're waging wars of aggression that have nothing to do with our defense. They're simply not recruiting the same kinds of people they did in World War 2 where we were actually fighting evil.

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Ilovegames1992

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#77 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

"99 brown insurgents on the ground, 99 brown insurgents, shoot one down, hits the ground, theres 98 brown insurgents on the ground...."

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worlock77

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#78 worlock77
Member since 2009 • 22552 Posts

*feigned moral outrage*

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MacBoomStick

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#79 MacBoomStick
Member since 2011 • 1822 Posts

Fvck the Army coming straight from the mud house.

A young Muslim got it bad cause I'm brown.

And not the other religion or so the Army thinks

They got the authority to kill an Islamic.

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tenaka2

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#80 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

Well the army are trained to dissociate in battle situations, if they were all trained to be emphasise with the enemy they couldn't do the job.

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#81 SolidSnake35
Member since 2005 • 58971 Posts

[QUOTE="pspdseagle"]I hope some psychopath gets him one day and kills him whilst singing that. Would be brilliant.IPWNDU2

I hope some psychopath gets you while saying whilst

Whilst is a great word.
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sideskull

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#82 sideskull
Member since 2012 • 136 Posts

its war. its sick either ways. i dont think the pilot should be yelled at. there are far worse things than this.

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#83 Kocelot
Member since 2011 • 816 Posts

i seriously wonder how ppl from today would react to world war 2, or a more 'actual' war.

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#84 Ilovegames1992
Member since 2010 • 14221 Posts

i seriously wonder how ppl from today would react to world war 2, or a more 'actual' war.

Kocelot

I don't think many would survive.

Different times.

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Jebus213

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#85 Jebus213
Member since 2010 • 10056 Posts
Wait, he only sang for a couple of seconds over the radio? It's "KEWL" to hate America right? Ugh....
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Jebus213

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#86 Jebus213
Member since 2010 • 10056 Posts

I don't see the problem with this.

leviathan91
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#87 krazykillaz
Member since 2002 • 21141 Posts
They're people coping with extreme circumstances. For an outsider it looks disgusting, but I don't think these are bad people.
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#88 wis3boi
Member since 2005 • 32507 Posts

i seriously wonder how ppl from today would react to world war 2, or a more 'actual' war.

Kocelot

probably piss themselves.

On the thread: I have no problem with the guy signing, but I bet they chewed him out because generally they tell you not to chat or say dumb things over airwaves. You're supposed to keep it mission chat only.

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kuraimen

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#89 kuraimen
Member since 2010 • 28078 Posts
I hope that people who have no problem with this imagine the insurgents or a terrorist doing the same thing.
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#90 lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 45469 Posts
I don't really see what the problem is myself, from the sounds of it I expected someone to be singing along all crazed out and disassociated with reality and killing people from the air like they were in a video game, but that strike looked rather clean and controlled. Anyhow, what next, they going to slam a pilot for saying "good hit"?
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lonewolf604

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#91 lonewolf604
Member since 2007 • 8748 Posts

Unprofessional and disturbing.

He should have fired his rockets and returned to base to await his next mission.

Making it into a joke or a game is disturbing and probably gives you an idea of how his life is going to end up once he's out of the service...

Dude has PTSD written all over him - I would not want to be around him when he finishes his tour and goes home.

Netherscourge
lol He's far from PTSD. Its a coping mechanism to distance himself from the thought of killing someone.
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#92 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 180197 Posts
I think people over react....
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#93 StRaItJaCkEt36
Member since 2011 • 551 Posts
[QUOTE="Netherscourge"]

Unprofessional and disturbing.

He should have fired his rockets and returned to base to await his next mission.

Making it into a joke or a game is disturbing and probably gives you an idea of how his life is going to end up once he's out of the service...

Dude has PTSD written all over him - I would not want to be around him when he finishes his tour and goes home.

lonewolf604
lol He's far from PTSD. Its a coping mechanism to distance himself from the thought of killing someone.

he doesn't have to worry about coming up with a coping mechanism because all he has to do is push a button and obliterate somebody that's pretty far away from himself.
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#94 Celldrax
Member since 2005 • 15053 Posts

I was actually expecting something bad.

Seems I was wrong.

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lonewolf604

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#95 lonewolf604
Member since 2007 • 8748 Posts
[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="Netherscourge"]

Unprofessional and disturbing.

He should have fired his rockets and returned to base to await his next mission.

Making it into a joke or a game is disturbing and probably gives you an idea of how his life is going to end up once he's out of the service...

Dude has PTSD written all over him - I would not want to be around him when he finishes his tour and goes home.

StRaItJaCkEt36
lol He's far from PTSD. Its a coping mechanism to distance himself from the thought of killing someone.

he doesn't have to worry about coming up with a coping mechanism because all he has to do is push a button and obliterate somebody that's pretty far away from himself.

I'm talking about mentally distancing himself.....:roll:
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RmanForLife

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#96 RmanForLife
Member since 2006 • 646 Posts

Im sure the pilot would have never imagined this ending up on youtube..... if he did I'm fairly confident he would have refrained from singing. From the pilot/gunners prospective, these are people (Taliban/ Al Quieda) who murder innocent civillians, torture and kill pow's, and perform many other evil acts. Its their way of coping with taking another human life. I'm also fairly sure he isn't the only one who has sang during combat.

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Fightingfan

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#97 Fightingfan
Member since 2010 • 38011 Posts
I need help, I said to myself that looks like fun...
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Bane_09

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#98 Bane_09
Member since 2010 • 3394 Posts

I need help, I said to myself that looks like fun...Fightingfan

Those Apaches are pretty badass so it's understandable

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mattisgod01

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#99 mattisgod01
Member since 2005 • 3476 Posts

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="Netherscourge"]

Unprofessional and disturbing.

He should have fired his rockets and returned to base to await his next mission.

Making it into a joke or a game is disturbing and probably gives you an idea of how his life is going to end up once he's out of the service...

Dude has PTSD written all over him - I would not want to be around him when he finishes his tour and goes home.

StRaItJaCkEt36

lol He's far from PTSD. Its a coping mechanism to distance himself from the thought of killing someone.

he doesn't have to worry about coming up with a coping mechanism because all he has to do is push a button and obliterate somebody that's pretty far away from himself.

You make it sound so easy. If only pushing a button and killing people from a distance in real life was as easy as it is in a video game, In real life real people die and the pilots are perfectly aware of that. The coping mechanism helps them deal with the after effects, Like trying to get to sleep without giving the days events too much thought.

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ad1x2

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#100 ad1x2
Member since 2005 • 8430 Posts

[QUOTE="lonewolf604"][QUOTE="Netherscourge"]

Unprofessional and disturbing.

He should have fired his rockets and returned to base to await his next mission.

Making it into a joke or a game is disturbing and probably gives you an idea of how his life is going to end up once he's out of the service...

Dude has PTSD written all over him - I would not want to be around him when he finishes his tour and goes home.

StRaItJaCkEt36

lol He's far from PTSD. Its a coping mechanism to distance himself from the thought of killing someone.

he doesn't have to worry about coming up with a coping mechanism because all he has to do is push a button and obliterate somebody that's pretty far away from himself.

Seriously? When you kill somebody the only difference between doing it from a distance and doing it a few feet away is the danger involved. Distance won't stop you from possibly feeling bad about it if you know your actions directly ended someone's life.