Arab Spring in the absence of the Iraq War?

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

You're very predictable yourself.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

That's a major assumption and a "what if".

Wasdie

It is, but in the wake of the fallout of this whole series of wars, you have to wonder.

If nothing else, it makes for good conversation and learning :).

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

[QUOTE="SaudiFury"] ah PWSteal_LdPinch the guy who lives to post only negative Muslim stories from around the world. and only posts attacking, slandering, and blasting muslims in every conceivable way. i don't deny bad and evil things happen in the Muslim world at the hands of Muslims. you calling me predictable is rather humorous to say the least. Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"] You're the one attacking people for being predictable. Anyway, I'd be more ashamed of following a lascivious child rapist than being a predictable poster on a gaming forum.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] yes, in the bible, the Egyptians were the children of Ham, son of Noah, although historically Egypt was home to a whole bunch of people. in the Jewish world it sort of works that way, a person's religion is chosen according to the mother , but the child has to belong to the group of the father, in the context of Ashkenazi/Sephardic/Mizrachi. ie, if we look at my family, despite the fact that my grandmother on my mother's side is a Sephardic Jew , because my father is an Ashkenazi Jew , on paper, I am also an Ashkenazi Jew (although honestly, few people in Israel who are under 40 actually care that much about that) though traditionally, Jews also chose the religion by the father too , but in the diaspora it was changed due to circumstances.Darkman2007

We'll work it out eventually, I'm sure.

Saddam would have acted like Ghadaffi, he did it before to the Kurds so this would be nothing new.markop2003

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] It's very much the same way here as well. I cannot fathom racial hate, hating governments, that much I get, but Semites hating each other is something I can never quite stomach. Although I suppose the answer is obvious already: ignorance.Victorious_Fize

one day it might change, , though thats going to be an odd Middle East although you know its not just between Jews and Arabs (and Persians for that matter) , its also Arab against Arab

heck , the first time Arabs are mentioned (as far as I know) , in an outside source, its on an Assyrian stele where they are allied with the Israelites and others in fighting the Assyrians, so weirder things have happened.

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] You should also be ashamed of your cultural reflection. Your actions and views defeat themselves entirely.Victorious_Fize

give it i [QUOTE="GazaAli"][QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="GazaAli"]By the way, I think the Arab spring is mostly hogwash. Tyrants are changing but people aren't.TehFuneral

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"] Cultural criticism from someone who lives in Saudi Arabia should be taken as a token of pride.PWSteal_Ldpinch

I think Saddam would have reacted exactly like Ghadaffi. He wouldnt hesitate to use planes against his people. I cant really find a correlation between the Iraq War starting or not and the Arab Spring commencing. I cant say if it sped up the Spring or hurt it or had no effect at all. But: if the Iraq War never started, I'd say Saddam would have been overthrown by now.

BossPerson

The more the Arab Spring progresses and the more we see just how much a blunder the invasion of Iraq was, I wonder what would have happened if it never took place. I am pretty curious actually as to whether Saddam would have been overthrown internally instead of completely by intervention. I also wonder how differently current events would have turned out without the war ever happening.

I must say, I believe the Arab Spring could have happened years earlier if the Iraq War never took place. The complete mess the country became and the cycle of violence it is still consumed in has seemed to served as sort of an example as to what would happen to Arab nations if their respective dictators/strongmen were overthrown. It gave their people a reason (real or not) to rally around them, and even today, we have seen people like Syrian President Assad largely using this card to maintain his key support (as well as Gaddafi and his supporters for awhile).

Yes, hindsight is 20/20 and this is all hypothetical and after the fact, but you have to wonder and reassess history constantly.

jetpower3

[QUOTE="jetpower3"]

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] No because if the sanctions were lifted Saddam would've been able to reload militarily. BossPerson

Eight years or less of reloading militarily isn't going to cut it. Gaddafi had about the same amount of time, and that wasn't enough to save himself.

[QUOTE="Storm_Marine"]

[QUOTE="jetpower3"]

Eight years or less of reloading militarily isn't going to cut it. Gaddafi had about the same amount of time, and that wasn't enough to save himself.

jetpower3

Gaddafi wouldn't have been overthrown without western intervention.

Maybe not, but Saddam was under a no-fly-zone of his very own. Any new uprising would be very difficult to respond to in the same way as Gaddafi initally did.

It annoys me how many people are/were against the Iraq war. And blame Bush for it.....all he did was go by what his Intelligence was telling him! Its not like he is a trained expert and was looking at satellite photographcs and **** the intillegence proved false....so what? People think that after 9/11 we were just supposed to sit around and not do anything is just insane. Diplomacy cant solve all of the worlds problems. Evil exists. Dimplomacy failed in trying to stop Hitler and it failed against Saddam.

also lol @ monarchist & Arab-hating Arabs.Victorious_Fize

We Westerners have developed quite an aversion to monarchs with very good reason. Please forgive us for not loving them.

[QUOTE="MrPraline"][QUOTE="SaudiFury"]

from what i gather from your post history and what i've seen.

there is not much to learn.

SaudiFury

I don't claim to know you, i've never met you, i claim to have a good idea as to how you will respond. If reading dozens of posts by you and seeing your beliefs written down and how you present yourself does not amount to some knowledge as to what you think and how you act. Then i don't know what counts then.

if say i were to start a thread about say.... abortion, By and large the active posters on this forum, i can already tell what and where most of them stand. After being on here for some 5 years, it begins to be predictable as to who will respond and how. it's not about being a smart @ss, or claiming to know people, it's about seeing a predictable response given again and again.

When victorious_fize writes that he is of a Yemeni tribal origin, what does this change for you? you already lol'd at him for living in Saudi Arabia. were all a bunch of sand people to some of you guys anyways.

Praline is a bro.

fin

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]also lol @ monarchist & Arab-hating Arabs.coolbeans90

We Westerners have developed quite an aversion to monarchs with very good reason. Please forgive us for not loving them.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]also lol @ monarchist & Arab-hating Arabs.Victorious_Fize

We Westerners have developed quite an aversion to monarchs with very good reason. Please forgive us for not loving them.

Gotcha.

Addendum: PW ain't a bro.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

We Westerners have developed quite an aversion to monarchs with very good reason. Please forgive us for not loving them.

coolbeans90

Gotcha.

Addendum: PW ain't a bro.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] I was referring to the Arabs here who oppose the revolutions. Nobody here likes monarchs either. We call them "mutabil" in Arabic, meaning "drummer". Because they'll drum (tabla) about how glorious their masters are day and night.Victorious_Fize

Gotcha.

Addendum: PW ain't a bro.

Sweet

< 3

I LOOK FORWARD TO FUTURE CONVOS

will attempt to be civlized

Addendum: PW ain't a bro.coolbeans90

Sun Tzu is a f*cking terrible debater.

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Gotcha.

Addendum: PW ain't a bro.

coolbeans90

Sweet

< 3

I LOOK FORWARD TO FUTURE CONVOS

will attempt to be civlized

I am a f*cking terrible debater.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

I am a f*cking terrible debater.

Victorious_Fize

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]Addendum: PW ain't a bro.PWSteal_Ldpinch

He is very good at debating - far better than I am, anyway. I say this as a hater of leftie scum. Granted, you argue hopeless causes well, though with an amount of vitriol I would call unwarranted.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="Victorious_Fize"] You're already a bro in my book.

Victorious_Fize

Sweet

< 3

I LOOK FORWARD TO FUTURE CONVOS

will attempt to be civlized

On occasion, when upset with someone, it's not that I don't hold back, but I say the most awfully ridiculous sh!t possible towards someone possible. Some interpret this as hostile.

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]Addendum: PW ain't a bro.coolbeans90

He is very good at debating - far better than I am, anyway. I say this as a hater of leftie scum. Granted, you argue hopeless causes well, though with an amount of vitriol I would call unwarranted.

And also, what are these "hopeless causes" that I argue? I have never argued that there is a solution to Islam, my arguments are only intended to discredit the notion that Islam is a peaceful religion.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"] Yeah I was starting to think so too, beans. While were being candid with each other, your praise of Sun Tzu's debating skills reveals a lack of judgement.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

He is very good at debating - far better than I am, anyway. I say this as a hater of leftie scum. Granted, you argue hopeless causes well, though with an amount of vitriol I would call unwarranted.

And also, what are these "hopeless causes" that I argue? I have never argued that there is a solution to Islam, my arguments are only intended to discredit the notion that Islam is a peaceful religion.

Sun Tzu uses powerful, concise arguments, despite qualifiers.

No one among us us arguing Islam is a peaceful religion.

Sun Tzu uses powerful, concise arguments.

coolbeans90

:lol:

No one among us us arguing Islam is a peaceful religion.

coolbeans90

So what is it that you think I'm arguing?

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Sun Tzu uses powerful, concise arguments.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

:lol:

No one among us us arguing Islam is a peaceful religion.

coolbeans90

So what is it that you think I'm arguing?

Have you observed him debate?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to argue that, doctrinally, that Islam is inherently more violent than other Abrahamic religions -- whereas I'd chalk it up to cultural backwardness.

Man there must be a draft ITT because I hear a lot of rustling -Sun_Tzu-

Hi Sun Tzu.

Did you or did you not argue that begining a sentence with the disclaimer "in my opinion" is redundant because any statement one makes is assumed to be the person's opinion?

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]Man there must be a draft ITT because I hear a lot of rustling PWSteal_Ldpinch

Hi Sun Tzu.

Did you or did you not argue that begining a sentence with the disclaimer "in my opinion" is redundant because any statement one makes is assumed to be the person's opinion?

Have you observed him debate?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to argue that, doctrinally, that Islam is inherently more violent than other Abrahamic religions -- whereas I'd chalk it up to cultural backwardness.

coolbeans90

Oh so you're an equalizer. Well it won't take long for me to dismantle your argument. Do you think every religion is exactlyas violent as every other? Does every religion have the same exactnumber of violent passages?

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Have you observed him debate?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to argue that, doctrinally, that Islam is inherently more violent than other Abrahamic religions -- whereas I'd chalk it up to cultural backwardness.

PWSteal_Ldpinch

Oh so you're an equalizer. Well it won't take long for me to dismantle your argument. Do you think every religion is exactlyas violent as every other? Does every religion have the same exactnumber of violent passages?

I'm not an equalizer.

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

Have you observed him debate?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to argue that, doctrinally, that Islam is inherently more violent than other Abrahamic religions -- whereas I'd chalk it up to cultural backwardness.

coolbeans90

Oh so you're an equalizer. Well it won't take long for me to dismantle your argument. Do you think every religion is exactlyas violent as every other? Does every religion have the same exactnumber of violent passages?

I'm not an equalizer.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"]

Oh so you're an equalizer. Well it won't take long for me to dismantle your argument. Do you think every religion is exactlyas violent as every other? Does every religion have the same exactnumber of violent passages?

PWSteal_Ldpinch

I'm not an equalizer.

I know exactly what I am trying to argue, and you do, too (making my response rather pointless, but so be it): that the disparity of violence between regions of different Abrahamic regions has not to do with religious reason strictly related to doctrine so much as cultural differences.

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"][QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

I'm not an equalizer.

coolbeans90

I know exactly what I am trying to argue, and you do, too (making my response rather pointless, but so be it): that the disparity of violence between regions of different Abrahamic regions has not to do with religious reason strictly related to doctrine so much as cultural differences.

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="PWSteal_Ldpinch"] So what is your argument? Do even know what you're trying to argue? If you answer the question then I might be able to help you get some insight.PWSteal_Ldpinch

I know exactly what I am trying to argue, and you do, too (making my response rather pointless, but so be it): that the disparity of violence between regions of different Abrahamic regions has not to do with religious reason strictly related to doctrine so much as cultural differences.

*yawns*

I do not recall saying the penalty wasn't that.

When you are done burning straw men, let me know.