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#51 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]
Then who would wash your shirts and clean your homes?
Pirate700

Those who need jobs?

I like how he makes those out to be low paying jobs or something. The two lawm guys that do my folks house make $20/hour. Same with the two ladies they have clean the house. I'd kill for that kind of money for a stressless job.

One of the biggest employer of illegals is now construction....which is a very well paying job and one that Americans DO want to do. I don't think the excuse that no one wants the jobs holds true once you start looking into the subject and not the soundbites.

13 years ago

46465

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Member since 2008 • 46465 Posts

For the folks in the thread who are doing the whole "I'll help them leave" bit... Can you elaborate on how you'd do that? Link I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.nocoolnamejim

I don't think any of us are suggesting we round all of them up. Not that practical or possible.

13 years ago

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#53 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.nocoolnamejim

I'd guess one at a time....and if they hit businesses hard....the jobs will dry up so they'll leave on their own. Doubt you can find them all though...still going after the employer is the most logical.

13 years ago

17958

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Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

For the folks in the thread who are doing the whole "I'll help them leave" bit... Can you elaborate on how you'd do that? Link I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.nocoolnamejim

It is not in the U.S.s interest to depot them, they support U.S. business by being underpaid, no one wants them to leave.

13 years ago

40001

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Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

Also, how many illegal immigrants have you spent time around? And to answer your question, I work construction so I've met plenty.
DroidPhysX

Your posts only point out the negatives.
I could list much larger/worse numbers for citizens 'mooching' off the system.
You listed nothing about the economic benefits.

To answer your question (which was mine)...
I live in Texas. I worked 'min wage' jobs and oil field jobs from the time I was 12 till I was 27
...what do you think

13 years ago

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#56 Allicrombie

Member since 2005 • 26223 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]For the folks in the thread who are doing the whole "I'll help them leave" bit... Can you elaborate on how you'd do that? Link I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.

I'd use Cerebro, it'll find them all. >.>

13 years ago

17098

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Member since 2010 • 17098 Posts

[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]Also, how many illegal immigrants have you spent time around? And to answer your question, I work construction so I've met plenty.
rawsavon

Your posts only point out the negatives.
I could list much larger/worse numbers for citizens 'mooching' off the system.
You listed nothing about the economic benefits.

To answer your question (which was mine)...
I live in Texas. I worked 'min wage' jobs and oil field jobs from the time I was 12 till I was 27
...what do you think

My point never alluded to the economic benefits in the first place. ;)

13 years ago

40001

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Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]For the folks in the thread who are doing the whole "I'll help them leave" bit... Can you elaborate on how you'd do that? Link I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.Allicrombie

I'd use Cerebro, it'll find them all. >.>

I think some people ITT would rather send the sentinels after them

13 years ago

15136

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#59 nocoolnamejim

Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]For the folks in the thread who are doing the whole "I'll help them leave" bit... Can you elaborate on how you'd do that? Link I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.Pirate700

I don't think any of us are suggesting we round all of them up. Not that practical or possible.

That's kind of my point. I'm all for tightening up security on people who aren't already here and providing better incentives for them to either stay in their host country or immigrate legally but... ...the approach to the people already IN the country needs to be a bit more nuanced than simply the "we'll round them up one at a time and toss them back over to Mexico" approach since it is, for all intents and purposes, logistically impossible. If the concern is that they're a drain on the country's resources, then register them and make them pay taxes. Get them to register voluntarily by offering them a path that eventually leads to legal status and lays down preconditions that they would have to meet. Whether it's learning the country's history or english, remaining employed for a certain period of time, or whatever other conditions make sense.

13 years ago

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#60 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.

13 years ago

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#61 nocoolnamejim

Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="Allicrombie"][QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]For the folks in the thread who are doing the whole "I'll help them leave" bit... Can you elaborate on how you'd do that? Link I mean, given that there are almost 14 million people here illegally. HOW exactly are you going to find and deport them all? Just curious.rawsavon

I'd use Cerebro, it'll find them all. >.>

I think some people ITT would rather send the sentinels after them

I suppose either approach could be made to work.

13 years ago

40001

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Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

[QUOTE="rawsavon"]
[QUOTE="DroidPhysX"]Also, how many illegal immigrants have you spent time around? And to answer your question, I work construction so I've met plenty.
DroidPhysX

Your posts only point out the negatives.
I could list much larger/worse numbers for citizens 'mooching' off the system.
You listed nothing about the economic benefits.

To answer your question (which was mine)...
I live in Texas. I worked 'min wage' jobs and oil field jobs from the time I was 12 till I was 27
...what do you think

My point never alluded to the economic benefits in the first place. ;)

That's what I said ;)
If the positives offset the negatives, then your assetrtion lacks merit ;)

13 years ago

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Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts

It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.
sonicare

Get your logic and reason out of this thread...

13 years ago

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#64 nocoolnamejim

Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"]
It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.
rawsavon

Get your logic and reason out of this thread...

I've kind of been meaning to ask this for a while now... Sonicare, did an alien race come and kidnap the original you and replace you with some sort of reprogrammed doppelganger? (And I mean that in the nicest possible way.) People used to give Theo a lot of grief for his changing from being a conservative to more of a liberal...but I recall you used to be a bit more of a hardline conservative as well. Don't get me wrong. I like the change! Just curious what happened.

13 years ago

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#65 Bloodseeker23

Member since 2008 • 8338 Posts

No. Most freeload from the system. I'm particular aiming this at illegal women who have anchor babies. DroidPhysX

This, I hate that also...

13 years ago

8709

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Member since 2007 • 8709 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"]I guess it depends on what you mean by helping them. I'm in favor of providing a method by which illegal immigrants, if they register and do certain things, can earn the right to remain here legally since it's both the moral and right thing to do and I don't think it's realistic to expect us to be able to round up millions of illegal immigrants and deport them. I'm not in favor of some sort of general amnesty that switches them all over to citizens instantaneously.

This exactly. is my opinion.

13 years ago

19063

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Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

We should give much credit to the people who come here legally and study to become citizens. Also I think it should be pointed out that illegal immigration is from nearly every country, let's not single out any one group of people.

13 years ago

973

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Member since 2011 • 973 Posts

I'm all for latinas coming to America, hell I'll give them a ride.

13 years ago

17958

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Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

If all illegals left the u.s. the u.s. structure would fall apart.

13 years ago

180231

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#70 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.
sonicare

Bit of a question here......if the employer is making out by not paying required wages, benefits, taxes etc then obviously he isn't going to hire someone "legal"...so saying the illegals want to come work here doesn't actually help those already out of work. Now if there was the work and not enough bodies that would be different. But make the illegals legal and then you have no incentive for employers to hire them. You might just have created more people on unemployment and social programs. Because the current problem is not that there isn't enough workers...it's the employers don't want to pay the required money. So the question is....do you really think that would change anything?

13 years ago

180231

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#71 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

If all illegals left the u.s. the u.s. structure would fall apart.
tenaka2

No it wouldn't.:|

13 years ago

2049

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#72 KeredsBlaze

Member since 2010 • 2049 Posts

depends on whether they want/are trying to become legalized. If they are trying then great, if not, get the hell out

13 years ago

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#73 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sonicare"]

It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.

Bit of a question here......if the employer is making out by not paying required wages, benefits, taxes etc then obviously he isn't going to hire someone "legal"...so saying the illegals want to come work here doesn't actually help those already out of work. Now if there was the work and not enough bodies that would be different. But make the illegals legal and they you have no incentive for employers to hire them. You might just have created more people on unemployment and social programs. Because the current problem is not that there isn't enough workers...it's the employers don't want to pay the required money. So the question is....do you really think that would change anything?

I definitely think employers who hire illegals just to pay them less should be prosecuted. But generally, economies grow by having people spending money and the more people you have the better. That's why europe is still struggling to achieve their potential, because they dont have the populations needed. But I agree that it is wise to be wary of a large scale immigration of untrained/uneducated workers.

13 years ago

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#74 stanleycup98

Member since 2006 • 6144 Posts

I'm against it. I immigrated to the US legally and had to deal with all the annoying and unnecessary processes. I don't see why they should be allowed to enter illegally and be allowed to stay. In my opinion, the only thing that needs to be done is to make it easier for people living in other countries to gain legal entry into the US. It is very hard to get a visa from countries like Mexico, Honduras, etc. But that doesn't mean they should be allowed to enter illegally.

13 years ago

180231

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#75 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="sonicare"]

It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.

Bit of a question here......if the employer is making out by not paying required wages, benefits, taxes etc then obviously he isn't going to hire someone "legal"...so saying the illegals want to come work here doesn't actually help those already out of work. Now if there was the work and not enough bodies that would be different. But make the illegals legal and they you have no incentive for employers to hire them. You might just have created more people on unemployment and social programs. Because the current problem is not that there isn't enough workers...it's the employers don't want to pay the required money. So the question is....do you really think that would change anything?

I definitely think employers who hire illegals just to pay them less should be prosecuted. But generally, economies grow by having people spending money and the more people you have the better. That's why europe is still struggling to achieve their potential, because they dont have the populations needed. But I agree that it is wise to be wary of a large scale immigration of untrained/uneducated workers.

Yes but the illegals aren't spending the money.....they are sending it home. They also incur costs to the taxpayers. I see no reason to reward them.

13 years ago

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#76 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="nocoolnamejim"][QUOTE="rawsavon"]

[QUOTE="sonicare"]

It's an extremely complex issue and not nearly as black and white as I used to think. I'd be all for giving amnesty to working illegals. Countries need people and if you have a group of people that is actively seeking work and is willing to work, by all means I want them as my fellow citizens. However, I don't want people to come here, not work and load the public systems. We can't subsidize other nations poor populations.

Get your logic and reason out of this thread...

I've kind of been meaning to ask this for a while now... Sonicare, did an alien race come and kidnap the original you and replace you with some sort of reprogrammed doppelganger? (And I mean that in the nicest possible way.) People used to give Theo a lot of grief for his changing from being a conservative to more of a liberal...but I recall you used to be a bit more of a hardline conservative as well. Don't get me wrong. I like the change! Just curious what happened.

I've always played the devil's advoate. I'm a little bit conservative, but I usually just argued with people for the sake of arguing with them. I still a financial conservative, but I'm generally more liberal socially. Plus, as I grow, I learn and change on some opinions. If you think politicans waffle, I'm worse. But I figure its good, because it makes me think about my stances.

13 years ago

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#77 EntropyWins

Member since 2010 • 1209 Posts

I'm for finding a solution that is both realistic and beneficicial for all the parties involved. So yes, I am for offering some path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

13 years ago

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#78 howlrunner13

Member since 2005 • 4408 Posts

The only help I am for is helping them out of this country.

13 years ago

17384

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Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

Let's just say I am for helping people, regardless of what side of an imaginary line they happen to be born on, and whether or not they crossed said line.

/liberal hippy herp derp rant

Also, closed borders = protectionism

protectionism = bad

Therefore, closed borders = bad

/economic rant

13 years ago

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#80 nocoolnamejim

Member since 2003 • 15136 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"] I've always played the devil's advoate. I'm a little bit conservative, but I usually just argued with people for the sake of arguing with them. I still a financial conservative, but I'm generally more liberal socially. Plus, as I grow, I learn and change on some opinions. If you think politicans waffle, I'm worse. But I figure its good, because it makes me think about my stances.

Not at all. There's a difference between being open-minded and a waffler. An open-minded person reexamines their views when new data comes in and can legitimately change their mind on things. Wafflers (or flip-floppers if you prefer politician speak) change their views out of political convenience or for some sort of personal gain. I'm getting the former vibe from you, not the latter. I'm enjoying a lot of your posts lately.

13 years ago

19063

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Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

Let's just say I am for helping people, regardless of what side of an imaginary line they happen to be born on, and whether or not they crossed said line.
/liberal hippy herp derp rant
Also, closed borders = protectionism
protectionism = bad
Therefore, closed borders = bad
/economic rant
-Sun_Tzu-

Mexico has oil money plus millions from making engines for some US cars. They can afford to help their own people with social programs - we shouldn't support those who break the law. It isn't difficult to become a US citizen, as I helped a person who sought to become one - and succeeded.

13 years ago

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57548

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#82 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] Bit of a question here......if the employer is making out by not paying required wages, benefits, taxes etc then obviously he isn't going to hire someone "legal"...so saying the illegals want to come work here doesn't actually help those already out of work. Now if there was the work and not enough bodies that would be different. But make the illegals legal and they you have no incentive for employers to hire them. You might just have created more people on unemployment and social programs. Because the current problem is not that there isn't enough workers...it's the employers don't want to pay the required money. So the question is....do you really think that would change anything?LJS9502_basic

I definitely think employers who hire illegals just to pay them less should be prosecuted. But generally, economies grow by having people spending money and the more people you have the better. That's why europe is still struggling to achieve their potential, because they dont have the populations needed. But I agree that it is wise to be wary of a large scale immigration of untrained/uneducated workers.

Yes but the illegals aren't spending the money.....they are sending it home. They also incur costs to the taxpayers. I see no reason to reward them.

It's definitely a tricky situation. Generally though, I dont mind if I have a group of people that wants to work and is willing to put in the effort. I'd rather have them documented, on the payrolls and paying taxes to support the social programs they draw from. I definitely see your point and I go back and forth on this issue a lot. The immigration system is kind of broken. I have several friends in Taiwan who are well educated (graduate degrees), english speaking, and hard working. I think they'd make a great addition to this country, but they can't get in. It's silly that we are turning away that kind of talent when we have the brain drain that we do.

13 years ago

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#83 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"] I've always played the devil's advoate. I'm a little bit conservative, but I usually just argued with people for the sake of arguing with them. I still a financial conservative, but I'm generally more liberal socially. Plus, as I grow, I learn and change on some opinions. If you think politicans waffle, I'm worse. But I figure its good, because it makes me think about my stances.nocoolnamejim

Not at all. There's a difference between being open-minded and a waffler. An open-minded person reexamines their views when new data comes in and can legitimately change their mind on things. Wafflers (or flip-floppers if you prefer politician speak) change their views out of political convenience or for some sort of personal gain. I'm getting the former vibe from you, not the latter. I'm enjoying a lot of your posts lately.

Thanks. In the past, I think I was a little more caustic - probably more for show than actual personal belief.

13 years ago

17958

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Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]
If all illegals left the u.s. the u.s. structure would fall apart.
LJS9502_basic

No it wouldn't.:|

Yes it would :|

13 years ago

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#85 foxhound_fox

Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

Helping them with what? Become legal? Definitely. Helping them take money, work and resources from hard-working legal citizens just so they can ship whatever they make back home? Definitely not. If they come to a country wanting to become part of the citizenry, them I fully support anything the government can do to help them. If all they do is leech of the hard work of others... I say back to where you came from. Though, it doesn't help that US immigration laws are so stringent. If they loosened it a bit more, and lowered the requirements to people who can prove they can work, then all the better.

13 years ago

180231

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#86 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

\ It's definitely a tricky situation. Generally though, I dont mind if I have a group of people that wants to work and is willing to put in the effort. I'd rather have them documented, on the payrolls and paying taxes to support the social programs they draw from. I definitely see your point and I go back and forth on this issue a lot. The immigration system is kind of broken. I have several friends in Taiwan who are well educated (graduate degrees), english speaking, and hard working. I think they'd make a great addition to this country, but they can't get in. It's silly that we are turning away that kind of talent when we have the brain drain that we do.sonicare

You're missing my point though. The reason they have the job is employers fire legal employees to hire illegals so they can make more profit by paying less in wages and benefits. They replaced people who DID want to work and did so until they no longer had a job. Basically they displaced the workers....creating more individuals and families on social programs....or struggling with a couple minimum wage jobs to raise a family. There was no need to fire those people other than greed. Now you take x amount of illegals and make them legal. What do you think the employer will do? Fire them and get different illegals in. The pattern repeats except you are enlarging the unemployed that need social programs.

The problem is not that employees are lacking for these jobs. Hotels/restaurants are not jobs that untrained citizens avoid. They do work in that field. As for construction...those jobs were highly sought.

13 years ago

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#87 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Helping them with what? Become legal? Definitely. Helping them take money, work and resources from hard-working legal citizens just so they can ship whatever they make back home? Definitely not. If they come to a country wanting to become part of the citizenry, them I fully support anything the government can do to help them. If all they do is leech of the hard work of others... I say back to where you came from. Though, it doesn't help that US immigration laws are so stringent. If they loosened it a bit more, and lowered the requirements to people who can prove they can work, then all the better.foxhound_fox

I never understood why more illegal immigrants didnt head to Canada. You guys have better social systems than us. I think the economic situation in Canada is ok as well. They'd get more benefits. Though, they'd have to deal with those Ontario winters.

13 years ago

17384

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Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
Let's just say I am for helping people, regardless of what side of an imaginary line they happen to be born on, and whether or not they crossed said line.
/liberal hippy herp derp rant
Also, closed borders = protectionism
protectionism = bad
Therefore, closed borders = bad
/economic rant
topsemag55

Mexico has oil money plus millions from making engines for some US cars. They can afford to help their own people with social programs - we shouldn't support those who break the law. It isn't difficult to become a US citizen, as I helped a person who sought to become one - and succeeded.

Actually it is very difficult to not only become a US citizen, but to even get a green card. The U.S. Immigration system is horrendously inefficient and has rightfully earned it's reputation as a bureaucratic hell hole. Moreover, I don't see the problem with letting people who want to come here, come here. In fact, there's a lot economic benefits to doing so. For starters, it would certainly breath new life into our severely depressed housing market.

13 years ago

180231

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#89 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"]Helping them with what? Become legal? Definitely. Helping them take money, work and resources from hard-working legal citizens just so they can ship whatever they make back home? Definitely not. If they come to a country wanting to become part of the citizenry, them I fully support anything the government can do to help them. If all they do is leech of the hard work of others... I say back to where you came from. Though, it doesn't help that US immigration laws are so stringent. If they loosened it a bit more, and lowered the requirements to people who can prove they can work, then all the better.sonicare

I never understood why more illegal immigrants didnt head to Canada. You guys have better social systems than us. I think the economic situation in Canada is ok as well. They'd get more benefits. Though, they'd have to deal with those Ontario winters.

Let's spread the word.....

13 years ago

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#90 stanleycup98

Member since 2006 • 6144 Posts

[QUOTE="topsemag55"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]
Let's just say I am for helping people, regardless of what side of an imaginary line they happen to be born on, and whether or not they crossed said line.
/liberal hippy herp derp rant
Also, closed borders = protectionism
protectionism = bad
Therefore, closed borders = bad
/economic rant
-Sun_Tzu-

Mexico has oil money plus millions from making engines for some US cars. They can afford to help their own people with social programs - we shouldn't support those who break the law. It isn't difficult to become a US citizen, as I helped a person who sought to become one - and succeeded.

Actually it is very difficult to not only become a US citizen, but to even get a green card. The U.S. Immigration system is horrendously inefficient and has rightfully earned it's reputation as a bureaucratic hell hole. Moreover, I don't see the problem with letting people who want to come here, come here. In fact, there's a lot economic benefits to doing so. For starters, it would certainly breath new life into our severely depressed housing market.

If you have legitimate documentation, then it is actually very easy to obtain both a green card and citizenship. It takes time, but it isn't hard.

13 years ago

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#91 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="sonicare"]\ It's definitely a tricky situation. Generally though, I dont mind if I have a group of people that wants to work and is willing to put in the effort. I'd rather have them documented, on the payrolls and paying taxes to support the social programs they draw from. I definitely see your point and I go back and forth on this issue a lot. The immigration system is kind of broken. I have several friends in Taiwan who are well educated (graduate degrees), english speaking, and hard working. I think they'd make a great addition to this country, but they can't get in. It's silly that we are turning away that kind of talent when we have the brain drain that we do.LJS9502_basic

You're missing my point though. The reason they have the job is employers fire legal employees to hire illegals so they can make more profit by paying less in wages and benefits. They replaced people who DID want to work and did so until they no longer had a job. Basically they displaced the workers....creating more individuals and families on social programs....or struggling with a couple minimum wage jobs to raise a family. There was no need to fire those people other than greed. Now you take x amount of illegals and make them legal. What do you think the employer will do? Fire them and get different illegals in. The pattern repeats except you are enlarging the unemployed that need social programs.

The problem is not that employees are lacking for these jobs. Hotels/restaurants are not jobs that untrained citizens avoid. They do work in that field. As for construction...those jobs were highly sought.

I think that assumes that there is a static job market. Often time, though jobs and demand can be induced by more people. I am by no means an economic expert, but I dont necessarily think that these people take jobs away from US citizens. There are some theories showing that they actually create jobs. But I think, regardless of whether you believe in amnesty or not, you have to go after the employer. They should be prosecuted for paying people less than a standard wage for a job. If that happens, then these employers would have no reason to hire an illegal alien over a legitimate citizen.

13 years ago

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Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

Actually it is very difficult to not only become a US citizen, but to even get a green card. The U.S. Immigration system is horrendously inefficient and has rightfully earned it's reputation as a bureaucratic hell hole. Moreover, I don't see the problem with letting people who want to come here, come here. In fact, there's a lot economic benefits to doing so. For starters, it would certainly breath new life into our severely depressed housing market. -Sun_Tzu-

The level of difficulty is dependent upon what support you have readily available. I was active duty military at the time, so it was easy for me to get help in smoothing out the process (plus it happened pre-9/11, so that makes a difference as well).

13 years ago

deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

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#93 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51

Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="topsemag55"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"]

Let's just say I am for helping people, regardless of what side of an imaginary line they happen to be born on, and whether or not they crossed said line.

/liberal hippy herp derp rant

Also, closed borders = protectionism

protectionism = bad

Therefore, closed borders = bad

/economic rant

Mexico has oil money plus millions from making engines for some US cars. They can afford to help their own people with social programs - we shouldn't support those who break the law. It isn't difficult to become a US citizen, as I helped a person who sought to become one - and succeeded.

Actually it is very difficult to not only become a US citizen, but to even get a green card. The U.S. Immigration system is horrendously inefficient and has rightfully earned it's reputation as a bureaucratic hell hole. Moreover, I don't see the problem with letting people who want to come here, come here. In fact, there's a lot economic benefits to doing so. For starters, it would certainly breath new life into our severely depressed housing market.

Not just that, but our brain drain problem as well. There are tons of highly educated and highly motivated people from India and the rest of the East that would make an immediate impact. Lots of foreigners come here to do their post graduate work. They get master degrees, Ph.D's, etc. A lot of them would like to stay, but they can't because of the process. No reason our country can't cherry pick and grab up all this talent rather than let them go. These people create jobs.

13 years ago

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#94 LJS9502_basic

Member since 2003 • 180231 Posts

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]
[QUOTE="sonicare"]\ It's definitely a tricky situation. Generally though, I dont mind if I have a group of people that wants to work and is willing to put in the effort. I'd rather have them documented, on the payrolls and paying taxes to support the social programs they draw from. I definitely see your point and I go back and forth on this issue a lot. The immigration system is kind of broken. I have several friends in Taiwan who are well educated (graduate degrees), english speaking, and hard working. I think they'd make a great addition to this country, but they can't get in. It's silly that we are turning away that kind of talent when we have the brain drain that we do.sonicare

You're missing my point though. The reason they have the job is employers fire legal employees to hire illegals so they can make more profit by paying less in wages and benefits. They replaced people who DID want to work and did so until they no longer had a job. Basically they displaced the workers....creating more individuals and families on social programs....or struggling with a couple minimum wage jobs to raise a family. There was no need to fire those people other than greed. Now you take x amount of illegals and make them legal. What do you think the employer will do? Fire them and get different illegals in. The pattern repeats except you are enlarging the unemployed that need social programs.

The problem is not that employees are lacking for these jobs. Hotels/restaurants are not jobs that untrained citizens avoid. They do work in that field. As for construction...those jobs were highly sought.

I think that assumes that there is a static job market. Often time, though jobs and demand can be induced by more people. I am by no means an economic expert, but I dont necessarily think that these people take jobs away from US citizens. There are some theories showing that they actually create jobs. But I think, regardless of whether you believe in amnesty or not, you have to go after the employer. They should be prosecuted for paying people less than a standard wage for a job. If that happens, then these employers would have no reason to hire an illegal alien over a legitimate citizen.

And yet those who lost jobs due to illegals were working those jobs. No nothing's static but when employees are fired for being legal something is wrong. I said in my first post that aggressively going after employers would solve much of the problems. The illegals would go home to their families if they had no work up here. It's not so much that they all want citizenship....they just want jobs. Much of the money is not circulated back because they send it home to Mexico for instance to the family. I think they even know if they become legal the jobs will disappear. It's not like they've applied for citizenship and been denied or are waiting. That's an assumption I think gets made in this threads. How many do you think tried to legally enter the country? Because if they haven't even tried...they aren't that interested in the legality.

13 years ago

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Member since 2007 • 8237 Posts

Illegals should be shipped back to wherever they came from.

If they want to live in a country, they should o it legally.

13 years ago

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Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="stanleycup98"][QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"][QUOTE="topsemag55"] Mexico has oil money plus millions from making engines for some US cars. They can afford to help their own people with social programs - we shouldn't support those who break the law. It isn't difficult to become a US citizen, as I helped a person who sought to become one - and succeeded.

Actually it is very difficult to not only become a US citizen, but to even get a green card. The U.S. Immigration system is horrendously inefficient and has rightfully earned it's reputation as a bureaucratic hell hole. Moreover, I don't see the problem with letting people who want to come here, come here. In fact, there's a lot economic benefits to doing so. For starters, it would certainly breath new life into our severely depressed housing market.

If you have legitimate documentation, then it is actually very easy to obtain both a green card and citizenship. It takes time, but it isn't hard.

It can take an absurd amount of time to come to the U.S. legally, especially if you are poor, uneducated and unskilled. Time that a lot of people do not have. Poverty in Mexico is a miserable existence, and with the presence and influence of the drug cartels in the country, many of these impoverished communities often resemble war zones.

13 years ago

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Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

Not just that, but our brain drain problem as well. There are tons of highly educated and highly motivated people from India and the rest of the East that would make an immediate impact. Lots of foreigners come here to do their post graduate work. They get master degrees, Ph.D's, etc. A lot of them would like to stay, but they can't because of the process. No reason our country can't cherry pick and grab up all this talent rather than let them go. These people create jobs.sonicare

Those you mention are not illegals (unless they overstay their visas), which makes them ineligible for this thread, since it's about illegals. I'm all for extending visas for those who obtained them legally and aren't masquerading to cover covert terrorism.

13 years ago

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Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] Actually it is very difficult to not only become a US citizen, but to even get a green card. The U.S. Immigration system is horrendously inefficient and has rightfully earned it's reputation as a bureaucratic hell hole. Moreover, I don't see the problem with letting people who want to come here, come here. In fact, there's a lot economic benefits to doing so. For starters, it would certainly breath new life into our severely depressed housing market. topsemag55

The level of difficulty is dependent upon what support you have readily available. I was active duty military at the time, so it was easy for me to get help in smoothing out the process (plus it happened pre-9/11, so that makes a difference as well).

OK, but most, if not all of these people crossing the border don't have active duty members of the armed forces to help pull some strings for them.

13 years ago

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#100 topsemag55

Member since 2007 • 19063 Posts

[QUOTE="-Sun_Tzu-"] OK, but most, if not all of these people crossing the border don't have active duty members of the armed forces to help pull some strings for them.

True, the person I helped I had claimed as a dependent. Immigration was still giving me a hard time though, so I wound up writing a letter to the senior member of the House Armed Services Committee - Immigration fell all over themselves trying to be nice and help me after that.:lol:

13 years ago

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