Are you Pro Life?

[QUOTE="SSCyborg"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"]

Pro Choice

It's the woman's body, she should be able to choose.

Lebbin

Glad to know you are so knowledgable about pregnancy and the human body. :roll:

I seriously don't see what you all have against abortions. If it doesn't and will not affect you, you should just leave it alone.

Why should people who believe it is murder (like myself) leave it alone?

How is it murder when it isn't sentient?
It's just killing off a bunch of cells until it is sentient. It's like cutting my hair or someone removing a growth.

[QUOTE="Lebbin"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"]

Pro Choice

It's the woman's body, she should be able to choose.

SSCyborg

Glad to know you are so knowledgable about pregnancy and the human body. :roll:

I seriously don't see what you all have against abortions. If it doesn't and will not affect you, you should just leave it alone.

Why should people who believe it is murder (like myself) leave it alone?

How is it murder when it isn't sentient?
It's just killing off a bunch of cells until it is sentient. It's like cutting my hair or someone removing a growth.

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I never said it was sentient I just said it isen't her body...The_Ish

Alright, I thought you'd figure out the coming argument from what I pointed out...but I guess not.

If something was growing out of you arm, and it simply kept growing, it would be called part of your body.

If it suddenly acquired the capability of sentience and the ability/capability to live disconnected from you, it is no longer part of your body - it would be an individual. Something that has a right to live, because it is aware of itself, or can become aware of itself at some point because it has the proper functions to eventually do so.

The same applies to pregnancy - until the fetus develops the brain to a point where sentience is possible, it's just a part of a woman's ody that is growing.

[QUOTE="Lebbin"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"]

Pro Choice

It's the woman's body, she should be able to choose.

SSCyborg

Glad to know you are so knowledgable about pregnancy and the human body. :roll:

I seriously don't see what you all have against abortions. If it doesn't and will not affect you, you should just leave it alone.

Why should people who believe it is murder (like myself) leave it alone?

How is it murder when it isn't sentient?
It's just killing off a bunch of cells until it is sentient. It's like cutting my hair or someone removing a growth.

Pro-choice is the way to go! :P

[QUOTE="Lebbin"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"][QUOTE="notconspiracy"][QUOTE="SSCyborg"]

Pro Choice

It's the woman's body, she should be able to choose.

SSCyborg

Glad to know you are so knowledgable about pregnancy and the human body. :roll:

I seriously don't see what you all have against abortions. If it doesn't and will not affect you, you should just leave it alone.

Why should people who believe it is murder (like myself) leave it alone?

How is it murder when it isn't sentient?
It's just killing off a bunch of cells until it is sentient. It's like cutting my hair or someone removing a growth.

Hair doesn't grow into a living, thinking lifeform. I believe the fetus is a human being before it's born.

the growth isn't unique from you. notconspiracy

What is both parents say it is alright?
Besides we should not be putting a female through this pain if she does not feel fit or willing to continue with it.

And it is STILL a bunch of cells, until it gains sentience. May I ask your stance on cloning?

I really dont appreciate the term Pro-Life. It is a really inaccurate term to describe those of us who are Anti-Abortion. I support wars when necessary, and i support executions to a certain scale. I even support torture (only if it actually is Effective, that is). So Pro-Life gives off this false portrayel that all of us against abortion are a bunch of hippie pacifists or it makes us look like hypocrites. Neither is correct.

Anyways, yes i am Anti-Abortion. I had the fortune of being born. Even though, like with most other families, my birth and the birth of my sibling affected our parents financially. All others deserve that chance as well. We can not let abortion be a tool of convenience.

Hair doesn't grow into a living, thinking lifeform. I believe the fetus is a human being before it's born.

Lebbin

Yeah it's a human before it's born, but that takes around 9 months to happen. There is a reason that abortions are illegal after a certain period of time.

those who say it's a bunch of cells are wrong. I know that some people have problems and cant deal with pregnency, I'm am simpatheic to that but I do not belive the child deserves to die. It has a heartbeat at 5 weeks and brain activity and 8 weeks. It cannot just be a bunch of cells.

I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... funkadelichika

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

There is no pro-life. Only anti-choice.JJ4545

[QUOTE="notconspiracy"]

the growth isn't unique from you. SSCyborg

What is both parents say it is alright?
Besides we should not be putting a female through this pain if she does not feel fit or willing to continue with it.

And it is STILL a bunch of cells, until it gains sentience. May I ask your stance on cloning?

and when does it gain sentience?

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... The_Ish

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... The_Ish

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

It isn't a part of her body. it is an independent entity. It has different blood, different bones, different everything. It just feed off the mother via the felopian tube. Not much different than and infant who also feeds off the mother just in a different way.

[QUOTE="The_Ish"]

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... ferrari2001

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

It isn't a part of her body. it is an inpendent entity. It has different blood, different bones, different everything. It just feed off the money via the felopian tube. Not much different than and infant who also feeds off the mother just in a different way.

But since it will be sentient at some point is it right at any point to kill it off?funkadelichika

[QUOTE="The_Ish"]

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... ferrari2001

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

It isn't a part of her body. it is an independent entity. It has different blood, different bones, different everything. It just feed off the mother via the felopian tube. Not much different than and infant who also feeds off the mother just in a different way.

I totally didn't know that a fetus right after conception has already developed bones and eyes and organs and stuff. I guess people learn something new every day. :roll:

I really dont appreciate the term Pro-Life. It is a really inaccurate term to describe those of us who are Anti-Abortion. I support wars when necessary, and i support executions to a certain scale. I even support torture (only if it actually is Effective, that is). So Pro-Life gives off this false portrayel that all of us against abortion are a bunch of hippie pacifists or it makes us look like hypocrites. Neither is correct.

Anyways, yes i am Anti-Abortion. I had the fortune of being born. Even though, like with most other families, my birth and the birth of my sibling affected our parents financially. All others deserve that chance as well. We can not let abortion be a tool of convenience.

Tolwan

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"] But since it will be sentient at some point is it right at any point to kill it off?The_Ish

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="The_Ish"]

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... The_Ish

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

It isn't a part of her body. it is an independent entity. It has different blood, different bones, different everything. It just feed off the mother via the felopian tube. Not much different than and infant who also feeds off the mother just in a different way.

I totally didn't know that a fetus right after conception has already developed bones and eyes and organs and stuff. I guess people learn something new every day. :roll:

Technicly no, but right at the start it has a completely different genetic structure and starts developing its own independant systems right off the bat. Further more, it is not exactly reliant on the mother. If we could simulate the environment within the womb, we could easily take the child out without any harm to it or the mother and allow it to grow within an artificial womb. Perhaps this kind of tech could be the solution to the abortion debate... But it doesnt exsist, so..eh..

[QUOTE="The_Ish"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="The_Ish"]

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... Tolwan

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

It isn't a part of her body. it is an independent entity. It has different blood, different bones, different everything. It just feed off the mother via the felopian tube. Not much different than and infant who also feeds off the mother just in a different way.

I totally didn't know that a fetus right after conception has already developed bones and eyes and organs and stuff. I guess people learn something new every day. :roll:

Technicly no, but right at the start it has a completely different genetic structure and starts developing its own independant systems right off the bat. Further more, it is not exactly reliant on the mother. If we could simulate the environment within the womb, we could easily take the child out without any harm to it or the mother and allow it to grow within an artificial womb. Perhaps this kind of tech could be the solution to the abortion debate... But it doesnt exsist, so..eh..

exactly right.. it has never been a part of the mother... from conception it contains everything it is going to be for the rest of it's life and it begins a series of growth and reproduction that will continue for the rest of it's life.

[QUOTE="The_Ish"][QUOTE="ferrari2001"][QUOTE="The_Ish"]

[QUOTE="funkadelichika"]I'm not stupid I figured out what you would go to point at...But their is an issue with your argument. You state "something that has a right to live because it is aware of itself ,OR CAN BECMOME AWARE OF ITSELF" A fetus does become aware of it's surroundings eventually... Tolwan

Yes - eventually. I pointed that out, and said that until that point, it is just something growing within the woman, and is only a part of her body.

It isn't a part of her body. it is an independent entity. It has different blood, different bones, different everything. It just feed off the mother via the felopian tube. Not much different than and infant who also feeds off the mother just in a different way.

I totally didn't know that a fetus right after conception has already developed bones and eyes and organs and stuff. I guess people learn something new every day. :roll:

Technicly no, but right at the start it has a completely different genetic structure and starts developing its own independant systems right off the bat. Further more, it is not exactly reliant on the mother. If we could simulate the environment within the womb, we could easily take the child out without any harm to it or the mother and allow it to grow within an artificial womb. Perhaps this kind of tech could be the solution to the abortion debate... But it doesnt exsist, so..eh..

Though I didn't feel like making this point in response to him, I'll make it to you.

Even if it is a different "entity", that does not really mean anything unless it becomes capable of sentience. If we seperated a fetus from it's mother, sure, it's no longer part of her body, but it simply becomes something that consumes resources until the fetus actually develops a brain capable of sentience. If we had this kind of tech, it actually would not solve the abortion debate. Personally, I think the only solution is to allow abortion up to a certain point (and this would be before the second trimester, since it's around that time the brain starts developing meaningfully), but disallow it after that point. The mother has plenty of time to decide whether or not she wants to have a child by then.

exactly right.. it has never been a part of the mother... from conception it contains everything it is going to be for the rest of it's life and it begins a series of growth and reproduction that will continue for the rest of it's life.

ferrari2001

If it's never been a part of the mother, what the hell is the egg?

after 6 weeks abortion stops a beating heartnotconspiracy

War stops a beating heart. Killing off animals for meat stops a beating heart. I fail to see your point if you support any of those.

my stance on cloning? IDK.

and when does it gain sentience?

notconspiracy

We do not know the exact momement that it gains sentience, but if I had to guess, I would say around 8-12 weeks. Science (to my knowledge) has yet to come up with a definitive answer to this.

You guys are fighting the wrong battle. It should not be "Should abortion be legal" but "When should abortion become illegal?" In the first trimester it is a bunch of cells. Millions of our cells die daily. It is completely outlawed in the third trimester.

It's the second semester and sentience that are the real arguments.

Pro-choice.

The term 'pro-life' is some of the worst political sugar coating in history.

Pro-choice.

The term 'pro-life' is some of the worst political sugar coating in history.

dhyce

Pro-choice is also pretty sugar-coated, really. A lot of people who support "pro-choice" also support tighter gun control laws or gun bans.

It really should just be either Pro-Abortion or Anti-Abortion. But I guess honesty is too much to ask for.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

exactly right.. it has never been a part of the mother... from conception it contains everything it is going to be for the rest of it's life and it begins a series of growth and reproduction that will continue for the rest of it's life.

SSCyborg

If it's never been a part of the mother, what the hell is the egg?

after 6 weeks abortion stops a beating heartnotconspiracy

War stops a beating heart. Killing off animals for meat stops a beating heart. I fail to see your point if you support any of those.

my stance on cloning? IDK.

and when does it gain sentience?

notconspiracy

We do not know the exact momement that it gains sentience, but if I had to guess, I would say around 8-12 weeks. Science (to my knowledge) has yet to come up with a definitive answer to this.

You guys are fighting the wrong battle. It should not be "Should abortion be legal" but "When should abortion become illegal?" In the first trimester it is a bunch of cells. Millions of our cells die daily. It is completely outlawed in the third trimester.

It's the second semester and sentience that are the real arguments.

or is it 8 weeks?

im not sure.

Pro-choice.

The term 'pro-life' is some of the worst political sugar coating in history.

dhyce

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

exactly right.. it has never been a part of the mother... from conception it contains everything it is going to be for the rest of it's life and it begins a series of growth and reproduction that will continue for the rest of it's life.

SSCyborg

If it's never been a part of the mother, what the hell is the egg?

after 6 weeks abortion stops a beating heartnotconspiracy

War stops a beating heart. Killing off animals for meat stops a beating heart. I fail to see your point if you support any of those.

my stance on cloning? IDK.

and when does it gain sentience?

notconspiracy

We do not know the exact momement that it gains sentience, but if I had to guess, I would say around 8-12 weeks. Science (to my knowledge) has yet to come up with a definitive answer to this.

You guys are fighting the wrong battle. It should not be "Should abortion be legal" but "When should abortion become illegal?" In the first trimester it is a bunch of cells. Millions of our cells die daily. It is completely outlawed in the third trimester.

It's the second semester and sentience that are the real arguments.

You dont understand the fundamental debate going on here. It is ideological. When does one gain the soul? When is it actually considered life? Some wish to protect a forming child altogether. It may be cells, but it WILL become a baby. An egg, no, it wont. All the egg is, is the mothers DNA. That's it. All sperm is, is the Father's DNA. A conceived child is the two DNA combined already and it has already formed the Genetic Structure of a new being. You abort that, you kill that genetic structure, that future child.

You follow a different ideology on the matter. This is a clash of ideals not science. I think most people know the science behind the process of birth. What will determine the law in this country? The ideaology that is more prevelant in the US, as it usually is in this country.

Pro-choice.

The term 'pro-life' is some of the worst political sugar coating in history.

dhyce

Pro-choice is also pretty sugar-coated, really. A lot of people who support "pro-choice" also support tighter gun control laws or gun bans.

It really should just be either Pro-Abortion or Anti-Abortion. But I guess honesty is too much to ask for.

The_Ish

You're right.

Although pro-abortion or anti-abortion don't have a good enough ring to them, not easily marketable to people. Both terms pro-choice and pro-life have an ostentatious air to them. People love a good ring with their political terminology, honesty just doesn't have the same edgy punch.

You dont understand the fundamental debate going on here. It is ideological. When does one gain the soul? When is it actually considered life? Some wish to protect a forming child altogether. It may be cells, but it WILL become a baby. An egg, no, it wont. All the egg is, is the mothers DNA. That's it. All sperm is, is the Father's DNA. A conceived child is the two DNA combined already and it has already formed the Genetic Structure of a new being. You abort that, you kill that genetic structure, that future child.

You follow a different ideology on the matter. This is a clash of ideals not science. I think most people know the science behind the process of birth. What will determine the law in this country? The ideaology that is more prevelant in the US, as it usually is in this country.

Tolwan

Who is to say one has a soul? The sentience argument is basically the life argument, except for the fact all cells are living (except dead ones >_>)

And yes it can become a battle of science, but only if science can create an artificial bond with a fetus' brain to determine when it first becomes self-aware.

If you kill a spider you're killing off a genetic structure. What makes us more important?

8-12? well fetal brain waves start at 6 weeks

or is it 8 weeks?

im not sure.

notconspiracy

The brains waves may begin then, but that is the most basic of things. It takes time for the brain to become more functional and for the baby/fetus to become self-aware.

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

You dont understand the fundamental debate going on here. It is ideological. When does one gain the soul? When is it actually considered life? Some wish to protect a forming child altogether. It may be cells, but it WILL become a baby. An egg, no, it wont. All the egg is, is the mothers DNA. That's it. All sperm is, is the Father's DNA. A conceived child is the two DNA combined already and it has already formed the Genetic Structure of a new being. You abort that, you kill that genetic structure, that future child.

You follow a different ideology on the matter. This is a clash of ideals not science. I think most people know the science behind the process of birth. What will determine the law in this country? The ideaology that is more prevelant in the US, as it usually is in this country.

SSCyborg

Who is to say one has a soul? The sentience argument is basically the life argument, except for the fact all cells are living (except dead ones >_>)

And yes it can become a battle of science, but only if science can create an artificial bond with a fetus' brain to determine when it first becomes self-aware.

If you kill a spider you're killing off a genetic structure. What makes us more important?

8-12? well fetal brain waves start at 6 weeks

or is it 8 weeks?

im not sure.

notconspiracy

The brains waves may begin then, but that is the most basic of things. It takes time for the brain to become more functional and for the baby/fetus to become self-aware.

Did you read anything i said? This IS an ideological debate. Why? Because it's all about what you place value on. Many people value the very begining of human life, that formation of the genetic structure which is that of a human being. You value that of a living breathing organism, nothing less. Most KNOW the science behind it, and even if you told them the exact time of sentience, many would still hold their positions. It is NOT a battle of science. It is a battle of ideologies.

As per your question of the spider. The spider is a bug, arachnid, a primitive life form. I believe that human life is the most valuable life. When comapared to that of an animal, we are superior in many senses. We are all that matters, because we are the only ones capable of having things matter to us.

DId you know that the 40 DAYS of life have been going on since Ash Wednesday and will continue til Easter. Basically it is a time where tons of people nationwide gather and pray outside abortion clinics. the last one was in October and it saved an estimated 340 kids. It may have even caused some clinics to close, and a lot of them reduced hours. so this is a great victory.whipassmt

Did you read anything i said? This IS an ideological debate. Why? Because it's all about what you place value on. Many people value the very begining of human life, that formation of the genetic structure which is that of a human being. You value that of a living breathing organism, nothing less. Most KNOW the science behind it, and even if you told them the exact time of sentience, many would still hold their positions. It is NOT a battle of science. It is a battle of ideologies.

As per your question of the spider. The spider is a bug, arachnid, a primitive life form. I believe that human life is the most valuable life. When comapared to that of an animal, we are superior in many senses. We are all that matters, because we are the only ones capable of having things matter to us.

Tolwan

I read what you said. How do you wish for me to argue my point?

Durr abortion is good durr

[QUOTE="Tolwan"]

Did you read anything i said? This IS an ideological debate. Why? Because it's all about what you place value on. Many people value the very begining of human life, that formation of the genetic structure which is that of a human being. You value that of a living breathing organism, nothing less. Most KNOW the science behind it, and even if you told them the exact time of sentience, many would still hold their positions. It is NOT a battle of science. It is a battle of ideologies.

As per your question of the spider. The spider is a bug, arachnid, a primitive life form. I believe that human life is the most valuable life. When comapared to that of an animal, we are superior in many senses. We are all that matters, because we are the only ones capable of having things matter to us.

SSCyborg

I read what you said. How do you wish for me to argue my point?

Durr abortion is good durr

The point is you can't really argue point. not with science anyways. The best we can do really is state what OUR ideological position is, and why we believe it. But you can't go around devaluing other peoples ideologies. That doesnt do anything.

This is a simple battle of ideologies and throwing science around really isnt gonna do much since most of us know the science behind it.

[QUOTE="whipassmt"]DId you know that the 40 DAYS of life have been going on since Ash Wednesday and will continue til Easter. Basically it is a time where tons of people nationwide gather and pray outside abortion clinics. the last one was in October and it saved an estimated 340 kids. It may have even caused some clinics to close, and a lot of them reduced hours. so this is a great victory.Wetall_basic

Yay for forcing opinions on others that are none of our business. :roll:

Isn't it ironic that I'm arguing in this thread. >_>

The point is you can't really argue point. I stopped arguing my "pro-life" position long ago on these forums. The best we can do really is state what OUR ideological position is, and why we believe it. But you can't go around devaluing other peoples ideologies. That doesnt do anything.

This is a simple battle of ideologies and throwing science around really isnt gonna do much since most of us know the science behind it.

Tolwan

Yeah it does. It makes them feel either worse or better about their position, and in some instances cause them to rethink their position.

And yeah science does has a stance in this. I am sure there are people in the world that feel the way they do because of science, and if science proved something else it may cause them to change their opinion. And as you say most people know the science, but there are some who don't, in which case it would be best to just state it instead of confusing them (even though it may confuse them more)