ATHEISM: The Necessary Proof

made up =/= false Just 'cause they're made up doesn't mean they're false.smc91352

Well I believe there's a huge difference in what's meant to be believed as true and what is made-up purely for entertainment's sake.

Greek Mythology was a bunch of stories created purely for entertainment and some ended up taking it seriously (read my post above). Christianity, Judaism and Islam along with other religions all have one thing in common and that is the involvement of a messenger who from the start stated that these words being spoken are the words of God. And that's where most of the discussion lies. I hope my point gets across.

[QUOTE="smc91352"]made up =/= false Just 'cause they're made up doesn't mean they're false.Aero5555

Well I believe there's a huge difference in what's meant to be believed as true and what is made-up purely for entertainment's sake.

Greek Mythology was a stories created purely for entertainment and some ended up taking it seriously (read my post above). Christianity, Judaism and Islam along with other religions all have one thing in common and that is the involvement of a messenger who from the start stated that these words being spoken are the words of God. And that's where most of the discussion lies. I hope my point gets across.

I'm still getting that you think that because the stories are made up for entertaining that they're less accurate. smc91352

it's not a point of accuracy at all, it simply doesn't make sense IMO to take whatever someone created purely to entertain (video game for example) and even think of making it an issue of worship.

I can't give your religion any more credibility.smc91352

LOL! Where'd that come from? I never asked for any.

Here is another question if Christianity/Islam was introduced today, would it actually get anywhere? No, and that's why religion was so successful when literacy rates bordered around 2%, famine, warfare, were constant, and its why religion is more popular in less well off nations "third world nations" Europe has become increasingly secular, which before that fought countless wars on why Christianity is right, and Islam was wrong.

Now im not saying that warfare, famine, still dont exist. Its just decreased over time, and world happiness for lack of a better word has caused a direct correlation towards the world becoming more and more secular.

[QUOTE="smc91352"]I'm still getting that you think that because the stories are made up for entertaining that they're less accurate. Aero5555

it's not a point of accuracy at all, it simply doesn't make sense IMO to take whatever someone created purely to entertain (video game for example) and even think of making it an issue of worship.

I can't give your religion any more credibility.smc91352

LOL! Where'd that come from? I never asked for any.

Here is another question if Christianity/Islam was introduced today, would it actually get anywhere?

Fizzman

Well according to Islamic faith Mohammed was meant to be the last messenger of God. And again I'll mention how all I'm saying is just so people who're curious could be informed. Not trying to prove a point, take it or leave I don't care either way.

[QUOTE="Fizzman"]

Here is another question if Christianity/Islam was introduced today, would it actually get anywhere?

Aero5555

Well according to Islamic faith Mohammed was meant to be the last messenger of God. And again I'll mention how all I'm saying is just so people who're curious could be informed. Not trying to prove a point, take it or leave I don't care either way.

Hey man you can believe what you want im just trying to have a lively debate.

I didn't say it made sense; I was just saying that that possibility deserves the same amount of credibility because of the same level of probability.smc91352

What possibilty? If the author of the piece of entertainment stated that it's purely fiction and made up would you still give it credit as something probably true? This is going nowhere, I withdraw from the discussion. Whatever floats your boat dude.

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

[QUOTE="smc91352"]I didn't say it made sense; I was just saying that that possibility deserves the same amount of credibility because of the same level of probability.Aero5555

What possibilty? If the author of the piece of entertainment stated that it's purely fiction and made up would you still give it credit as something probably true? This is going nowhere, I withdraw from the discussion. Whatever floats your boat dude.

Im sorry what author do you speak of because i have never heard of this before? Id like to say im more informed about Roman/Greek/Norse Mythology more so then the usual person, and i have never read about this anywhere.

Hey man you can believe what you want im just trying to have a lively debate.

Fizzman

Debate to your heart's content. Read my post again, alot of people automatically get so defensive whenever someone mentions his religious views and think he's trying to force it. I'm just making it clear that I'm not into debating my views just stating them. I withdraw from here on either way.

Im sorry what author do you speak of because i have never heard of this before? Id like to say im more informed about Roman/Greek/Norse Mythology more so then the usual person, and i have never read about this anywhere.

Fizzman

The point got general once we got into the "made up =/= false" debate. With regards to Greek Mythology I'm talking from first-hand experience being Greek with Greek friends who are atheists. It's widely known that those stories were made-up by authors to entertain and never to be taken seriously. Wikipedia will help you alot more than me.

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

MystikFollower

Yes, it could be just a "meaningless accident".

Are you trying to suggest that there must be a god because the universe is really big?

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

MystikFollower

*yawns*

Meaning is an arbitary human concept at best, and ultimately irrelevant. What's important is the question of whether or not the presence of the universe necessitates the presence of a sentient supernatural omnipotent creator, and I have yet to see any valid string of logic that comes to such a conclusion.

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

Barbariser

*yawns*

Meaning is an arbitary human concept at best, and ultimately irrelevant. What's important is the question of whether or not the presence of the universe necessitates the presence of a sentient supernatural omnipotent creator, and I have yet to see any valid string of logic that comes to such a conclusion.

[QUOTE="Barbariser"]

[QUOTE="MystikFollower"]

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

ghoklebutter

*yawns*

Meaning is an arbitary human concept at best, and ultimately irrelevant. What's important is the question of whether or not the presence of the universe necessitates the presence of a sentient supernatural omnipotent creator, and I have yet to see any valid string of logic that comes to such a conclusion.

I just think people need to stop thinking about things in such narrow minded "since we can't see or test it, it must not exist" ways. I'm not here to change anyone's mind as I'm very comfortable in my beliefs but please read this [link]http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/nature.htm[/link]. I can see the stand point many athiests take with God and spirituality and many of the fallacy's and issues they have with belief and religion I fully agree with. I don't believe in many aspects of the Bible, nor do I think any one religion can ever claim to be complete truth. That'd be a paradox anyways considering religion in itself is simply civilization's futile attempt to understand something that, at least on this plane of existence, is incomprehensible. It is impossible for the human mind to comprehend a being that transcends space and time. A being that is everywhere and at the same time nowhere (since to be somewhere there'd have to somewhere you are not which is impossible for a divine being). Nature has a level of complexity and sophistication that to this day scientists have barely scratched the surface of. We still don't even understand the true nature of the very atoms that give the Universe mass.

But please read at least that chapter. Not to change your mind but just to expand your insight a little. And I'm not saying just because the Universe is unimaginably vast that it was intelligent design. Most atheists take a cause and effect approach to this.. Everything in the universe due to the laws of nature has a cause and effect relationship with something else. Now followning this cause and effect relationship back to the very beginning we come ultimately to the cause for everything. But if you take the athiest view that cause can't be something intelligent so we have to think what else could be the cause for the rapid expansion of a tiny amount of space into the universe. Honestly I can say I have no idea what, besides a divine being with power beyond comprehension, could cause such an event.

We know for a fact that the Universe had a beginning. If the Universe was truly infinity and had no beginning or end, then all the energy in the Universe would have been burnt out and used up long long ago. Scientists know that the energy currently in are Universe is weakening and one day billions and billions of years from now it'll have all been used up and transformed into non useful energy. Time itself (since time is energy) would even cease to flow. I believe each and every person has their own path to follow that will ultimately lead them where they need to be and I hope all of us one day gain the understanding of this Universe that all of us are pulled to know.

I'm very sorry, while that link has some good insight it is not the page I wanted you to read. http://www.al-islam.org/GodAttributes/need.htmThis is the link I actually wanted to show you.

Meh using the lack of understanding of the universe as some kind of hey its so crazy therehas to be something out thereis more of a scientific area that will eventually be exposed once we gather the requiste techonology, and intelligence to further explain it.

Meh using the lack of understanding of the universe as some kind of hey its so crazy therehas to be something out thereis more of a scientific area that will eventually be exposed once we gather the requiste techonology, and intelligence to further explain it.

Fizzman

We'll be long extinct before that happens guaranteed. This world is screwed one way or another. Global Warming, nuclear war, asteroids, the Sun. There's near endless ways for life to be wiped out at any instance. This world is to narrowly concieved anyways. I meditate a lot and have found a great inner peace in the things I've discovered just by cutting out the noise of the world and listening to the language of the soul. Everyone has it just more are far to caught up in their little lives to every realise it or pay attention. Two years ago I was at a point with drugs and depression that I was going to end my life and had tried once (pills are a stupid way to go anyways lol). Point is, I had let myself just get completely wrapped in the materialistic and unimportant self absorbed aspects of life and it nearly destroyed me. I dunno if its God or what but something changed in me and my whole outlook on things. It brought about a peace I had never felt before. A comfort that was not my own. That's where my belief came from. Not from listening to a sermon or reading a book full of stories.

Honestly I can say I have no idea what, besides a divine being with power beyond comprehension, could cause such an event.

The Big Bang was an expansion of a singularity that compressed all of the universe's mass and energy into an almost infinitely small volume. I'm not sure how "divine conscious intervention" needs to be injected into this, since such a singularity would be incredibly unstable on its lonesome, and it could "expand" by virtue of having an internal pressure that is stronger than its own gravitational pull.

We know for a fact that the Universe had a beginning.

Since when?

If the Universe was truly infinity and had no beginning or end, then all the energy in the Universe would have been burnt out and used up long long ago.

What? First of all, energy can NEVER be "used up" - it will only change its forms and dissipate, and it will ALWAYS remain. Furthermore, this dissipation process only begun during the Big Bang, since that was when the expansion began and therefore when entropy began to increase - and nobody's saying that the duration between the Big Bang and now is infinite.

Scientists know that the energy currently in are Universe is weakening and one day billions and billions of years from now it'll have all been used up and transformed into non useful energy.

And?

Time itself (since time is energy) would even cease to flow.

Time is energy? I must have missed a memo somewhere.

MystikFollower

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

MystikFollower

We know for a fact that the Universe had a beginning. If the Universe was truly infinity and had no beginning or end, then all the energy in the Universe would have been burnt out and used up long long ago.

MystikFollower

Hi everybody. Now I'm not going to read through all 16 pages of this probably very dragged out debate. I'm also not going to sit here and spout my personal beliefs in a futile and meaningless attempt to change anyone's beliefs on the very broad subjects of Spirituality and Religion. It would be fruitless since almost everyone here is already set in whatever beliefs they have and nothing a person they don't even know says on a video game website is going to change their minds. However I'd like every person who reads this to do something for me. Whatever you're doing at this moment and thinking about, I would like you to close your eyes and try your best to clear your mind.

After you have done that I want you to consider the Universe. Consider everything about it. The vast, seemingly endless, sizeof it. The hundreds of trillions of galaxy clusters. The nearly endless amount of star systems and the sheermajesty of it. The phenonema we witness in it is on scales that are boggling to the mind. Black holes, wormholes, quasars and pulsars. Now consider what everything in this universe really is. Time, space, matter, movement, every single atom and molecule. It's all the remnant energy from the Big Bang. Energy is the very fabric of the universe. It is said that it took an incomprehensible amount of energy to create the universe. Now consider all this and ask yourself if it could actually just be a meaningless accident....

MystikFollower

I'm a theist, and the size of the universe really doesn't change the argument. If so much as a single, infinitesimally small piece of existence could be a random, self perpetuating occurrence, then whole universe could quite easily be. It's one thing to argue against the self-causality of the universe. (which is where I derive my belief in a deity from...) The argument that the universe is so complex that it could not have been a random accident, I find to be complete rubbish.