Atheist and proud of it?

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#201 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

battlefront23

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

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#202 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Why does he need personal gain? HE'S THE ALMIGHTY!!!!

Video_Game_King

You tell me. While we're at it, why does he need validation of his own being? Sounds like an insecure bastard. Is God a bullied high school nerd?

He doesn't need personal gain... he wasn't trying to prove anything besides the fact that he is in control...This argument has gone nowhere and since you're disbelief in God is so SEVERELY strong, why do you even want answers from me? Same with SubZero

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#203 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

sSubZerOo

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

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#204 quiglythegreat
Member since 2006 • 16886 Posts

Yay Descartes and "Meditations on First Philosophy"!

Anyway, while the points you both bring up are valid you must realize that you're arguing that everything in this world is fake or misunderstood and that because of that the soul is a possibility, just as everything else would also be a possibility. In other words, you have both resorted to having to bring everything in existence to total doubt in order to provide just a modicum of reason to your concept of the soul. And all that does is put your concept of the soul on equal footing with everything (and I literally mean everything, including the existence of such outlandish concepts as the flying spaghetti monster). It doesn't make the concept of a soul any more likely than it already is. It doesn't make your god or your religion any more real. No matter what you argue, you have no reason to believe in your god. None.

gameguy6700
I've never seriously read Descartes and I plan to avoid doing so as long as I can. What I'm saying is that it's important to ask if the hour-glass exists if indeed you something in it. Clearly, we are delusional a lot of the time, thus what we perceive to be reality cannot be totally accepted as such. We are real, it seems, and we experience all things around us. I'm not saying that everything else doesn't exist, but is a rock aware of another rock? No, it's not, we are aware of things, we are sentient, and that means that we exist. The issue is that the physical basis of such sentience really may in itself be an illusion, because if it were, there would be absolutely no way to know. This is different than proposing a specific phenomenon like the flying spaghetti monster because it's a theory for everything, and it lacks definition. That's what bothers me about that metaphor; god doesn't even have a distinct definition, so why should you use such a distinct parody?
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#205 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

he preordains our choices (this is some deep stuff, so I understand if you don't get it at first) In other words he knows exactly what choices we are going to have before we have them... If evil goes to far: as such as slavery, murder, immorality etc. then he already has some country or civilization preordained to destroy the cause of that sin...

battlefront23

Are you insulting my intelligence? Anyway, back on track with this. So he allows the evil to exist in the first place? Why doesn't he just make us avoid it? And if he wants to make us suffer for not worshipping him, he must be one insecure man. And just to prove God is evil....

No I really was not trying to stab at your intelligence sorry... he doesn't want you to suffer cuz you don't worship him... many Christians suffer all the time...

No offense but I don't understand how people know the inner workings ofa being they claim to be beyond comprehension? Just seems alittle contridictory... That being said evil and good are subjective, with out religion/god mankind would still have a understanding of these ideas, if they were not following a religion.

Could you restate that?

My point is the fact that you sound like you actually know the being.. When that is not true, you have read froma 2000 year old text that has been warped through constant rewrittings.. I find it kind of rediculous that you state it as supposed fact.. Maybe you should say its in your belief the being doesn't want you to suffer? This seems kind of a contridiction when most claim god to be perfect beyond our reasoning, how can people be entirely sure the true motives can beso easilly discerned.. And you can't use the Bible as a form of evidence not only has it been changed by translations not to mention peoples bias, but numerous passages can't even be agreed on meaning...

Also the whole idea of good and evil are subjective and fit completely with in the constructs of man and culture. God has no equation in this idea, in less the being is in direct control of our lives and civilization which is a contridiction to free will.

where is this proof of the scripture changing? Where?

You have to be kidding me are you this ignorant.. Other then the fact of thousands of translations (languages arn't 1:1 word meanigns) which can cause a huge varience.. As well as the fact that during the dark ages mankind was controled by brutal regimes.. We can point out that there are hundreds if not thousands of different versions of bibles all with some different material matter.. I am not saying the original bible or yoru beliefs are wrong.. but I do call any one who thinks the Bible is 100% or even 80% accurate to the original is a bloody fool..

Where? Haven't answered this... Almost all Bible variations are not different material, maybe different grammar... but that doesn't change anything.

......Wow just wow.. First you completely go against it then you break down saying it has different Grammar.... There is a huge difference speically with alot of these stories.. And as I said before there have ALWAYS been differences in the Bible, if there wasn't there would be only ONE DENOMINATION of Christianity, yet there is many.

When did I go against it? I'm sick of you putting words in my mouth! ALL denominations that ARE need only to believe this to got to heaven: Jesus died for our sins and he is coming back. That is all. Now, someone's gonna say so I can believe in God and still sin? That wouldn't be true Christianity...

.... This is morally flawed.. Why would god refuse people morally superior for a group of people which consist of ones born into a religion rather given full choice of believing it or not. If god was just why wouldn't the being judge upon a persons characters and actions, rather then a belief that seems really circumstantial.

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#206 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts
[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Why does he need personal gain? HE'S THE ALMIGHTY!!!!

battlefront23

You tell me. While we're at it, why does he need validation of his own being? Sounds like an insecure bastard. Is God a bullied high school nerd?

He doesn't need personal gain... he wasn't trying to prove anything besides the fact that he is in control...This argument has gone nowhere and since you're disbelief in God is so SEVERELY strong, why do you even want answers from me? Same with SubZero

How did he prove he was in control? Satan was the one screwing with Job. And couldn't he just prove it by controlling Satan into believing him? As to why I'm "against" Christianity, I'm just naturally argumentative.

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#207 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Why does he need personal gain? HE'S THE ALMIGHTY!!!!

Video_Game_King

You tell me. While we're at it, why does he need validation of his own being? Sounds like an insecure bastard. Is God a bullied high school nerd?

He doesn't need personal gain... he wasn't trying to prove anything besides the fact that he is in control...This argument has gone nowhere and since you're disbelief in God is so SEVERELY strong, why do you even want answers from me? Same with SubZero

How did he prove he was in control? Satan was the one screwing with Job. And couldn't he just prove it by controlling Satan into believing him? As to why I'm "against" Christianity, I'm just naturally argumentative.

The fact Satan aksed him for permission...

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#208 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

battlefront23

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

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#209 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

he preordains our choices (this is some deep stuff, so I understand if you don't get it at first) In other words he knows exactly what choices we are going to have before we have them... If evil goes to far: as such as slavery, murder, immorality etc. then he already has some country or civilization preordained to destroy the cause of that sin...

sSubZerOo

Are you insulting my intelligence? Anyway, back on track with this. So he allows the evil to exist in the first place? Why doesn't he just make us avoid it? And if he wants to make us suffer for not worshipping him, he must be one insecure man. And just to prove God is evil....

No I really was not trying to stab at your intelligence sorry... he doesn't want you to suffer cuz you don't worship him... many Christians suffer all the time...

No offense but I don't understand how people know the inner workings ofa being they claim to be beyond comprehension? Just seems alittle contridictory... That being said evil and good are subjective, with out religion/god mankind would still have a understanding of these ideas, if they were not following a religion.

Could you restate that?

My point is the fact that you sound like you actually know the being.. When that is not true, you have read froma 2000 year old text that has been warped through constant rewrittings.. I find it kind of rediculous that you state it as supposed fact.. Maybe you should say its in your belief the being doesn't want you to suffer? This seems kind of a contridiction when most claim god to be perfect beyond our reasoning, how can people be entirely sure the true motives can beso easilly discerned.. And you can't use the Bible as a form of evidence not only has it been changed by translations not to mention peoples bias, but numerous passages can't even be agreed on meaning...

Also the whole idea of good and evil are subjective and fit completely with in the constructs of man and culture. God has no equation in this idea, in less the being is in direct control of our lives and civilization which is a contridiction to free will.

where is this proof of the scripture changing? Where?

You have to be kidding me are you this ignorant.. Other then the fact of thousands of translations (languages arn't 1:1 word meanigns) which can cause a huge varience.. As well as the fact that during the dark ages mankind was controled by brutal regimes.. We can point out that there are hundreds if not thousands of different versions of bibles all with some different material matter.. I am not saying the original bible or yoru beliefs are wrong.. but I do call any one who thinks the Bible is 100% or even 80% accurate to the original is a bloody fool..

Where? Haven't answered this... Almost all Bible variations are not different material, maybe different grammar... but that doesn't change anything.

......Wow just wow.. First you completely go against it then you break down saying it has different Grammar.... There is a huge difference speically with alot of these stories.. And as I said before there have ALWAYS been differences in the Bible, if there wasn't there would be only ONE DENOMINATION of Christianity, yet there is many.

When did I go against it? I'm sick of you putting words in my mouth! ALL denominations that ARE need only to believe this to got to heaven: Jesus died for our sins and he is coming back. That is all. Now, someone's gonna say so I can believe in God and still sin? That wouldn't be true Christianity...

.... This is morally flawed.. Why would god refuse people morally superior for a group of people which consist of ones born into a religion rather given full choice of believing it or not. If god was just why wouldn't the being judge upon a persons characters and actions, rather then a belief that seems really circumstantial.

Why are they doing these actions is what I ask... if right and wrong is subjective, why are they doing these things...

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#210 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts
[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Why does he need personal gain? HE'S THE ALMIGHTY!!!!

battlefront23

You tell me. While we're at it, why does he need validation of his own being? Sounds like an insecure bastard. Is God a bullied high school nerd?

He doesn't need personal gain... he wasn't trying to prove anything besides the fact that he is in control...This argument has gone nowhere and since you're disbelief in God is so SEVERELY strong, why do you even want answers from me? Same with SubZero

How did he prove he was in control? Satan was the one screwing with Job. And couldn't he just prove it by controlling Satan into believing him? As to why I'm "against" Christianity, I'm just naturally argumentative.

The fact Satan aksed him for permission...

Really? Have the passage ready? I believe Satan just said "He only loves you due to his good fortune. He'd go straight for me as soon as you took it away", to which God replied "Oh yea? Go screw with his environment, but don't touch him!"

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#211 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

sSubZerOo

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

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#212 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

he preordains our choices (this is some deep stuff, so I understand if you don't get it at first) In other words he knows exactly what choices we are going to have before we have them... If evil goes to far: as such as slavery, murder, immorality etc. then he already has some country or civilization preordained to destroy the cause of that sin...

battlefront23

Are you insulting my intelligence? Anyway, back on track with this. So he allows the evil to exist in the first place? Why doesn't he just make us avoid it? And if he wants to make us suffer for not worshipping him, he must be one insecure man. And just to prove God is evil....

No I really was not trying to stab at your intelligence sorry... he doesn't want you to suffer cuz you don't worship him... many Christians suffer all the time...

No offense but I don't understand how people know the inner workings ofa being they claim to be beyond comprehension? Just seems alittle contridictory... That being said evil and good are subjective, with out religion/god mankind would still have a understanding of these ideas, if they were not following a religion.

Could you restate that?

My point is the fact that you sound like you actually know the being.. When that is not true, you have read froma 2000 year old text that has been warped through constant rewrittings.. I find it kind of rediculous that you state it as supposed fact.. Maybe you should say its in your belief the being doesn't want you to suffer? This seems kind of a contridiction when most claim god to be perfect beyond our reasoning, how can people be entirely sure the true motives can beso easilly discerned.. And you can't use the Bible as a form of evidence not only has it been changed by translations not to mention peoples bias, but numerous passages can't even be agreed on meaning...

Also the whole idea of good and evil are subjective and fit completely with in the constructs of man and culture. God has no equation in this idea, in less the being is in direct control of our lives and civilization which is a contridiction to free will.

where is this proof of the scripture changing? Where?

You have to be kidding me are you this ignorant.. Other then the fact of thousands of translations (languages arn't 1:1 word meanigns) which can cause a huge varience.. As well as the fact that during the dark ages mankind was controled by brutal regimes.. We can point out that there are hundreds if not thousands of different versions of bibles all with some different material matter.. I am not saying the original bible or yoru beliefs are wrong.. but I do call any one who thinks the Bible is 100% or even 80% accurate to the original is a bloody fool..

Where? Haven't answered this... Almost all Bible variations are not different material, maybe different grammar... but that doesn't change anything.

......Wow just wow.. First you completely go against it then you break down saying it has different Grammar.... There is a huge difference speically with alot of these stories.. And as I said before there have ALWAYS been differences in the Bible, if there wasn't there would be only ONE DENOMINATION of Christianity, yet there is many.

When did I go against it? I'm sick of you putting words in my mouth! ALL denominations that ARE need only to believe this to got to heaven: Jesus died for our sins and he is coming back. That is all. Now, someone's gonna say so I can believe in God and still sin? That wouldn't be true Christianity...

.... This is morally flawed.. Why would god refuse people morally superior for a group of people which consist of ones born into a religion rather given full choice of believing it or not. If god was just why wouldn't the being judge upon a persons characters and actions, rather then a belief that seems really circumstantial.

Why are they doing these actions is what I ask... if right and wrong is subjective, why are they doing these things...

Put it in this perspective, if god created moral action then we infact are controled and do not have free will, because god has preordainted our decision making at hand.. If god RECOGNIZES good action, then god does not control morality and is completely seperate of it..

And it is subjective.. 500 years ago, oppression of womens rights and slavery were perfectly normal and not considered unjust acts. As our society evolved our values change, it has nothing to do with god or religion. Also our ideas are very much affected by society in general.

Kane hada interesting idea on this.. That overall we are controeld by our society in general... We do have moments in life where competing moral deicisons are at war with in our head.. These significant moments are thought through indeterminism where at random we may change our decision if brought upon it again.. This forms our character..

Like I said earlier I have no problem with Christianity it just perturbs me how alot oc Christians present their ideas as fact. As well as not admitting that there is no flaws in any of their beliefs or ideas. For me for instance I will accept people to say I believe in god etc etc.. What I can't handle is the rediculousness of "there is a god and they would never harm us".. How can people have such knownledge of the inner workings of a being that people claim is outside the laws of physics and everything else.

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#213 gameguy6700
Member since 2004 • 12197 Posts
[QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

Yay Descartes and "Meditations on First Philosophy"!

Anyway, while the points you both bring up are valid you must realize that you're arguing that everything in this world is fake or misunderstood and that because of that the soul is a possibility, just as everything else would also be a possibility. In other words, you have both resorted to having to bring everything in existence to total doubt in order to provide just a modicum of reason to your concept of the soul. And all that does is put your concept of the soul on equal footing with everything (and I literally mean everything, including the existence of such outlandish concepts as the flying spaghetti monster). It doesn't make the concept of a soul any more likely than it already is. It doesn't make your god or your religion any more real. No matter what you argue, you have no reason to believe in your god. None.

quiglythegreat

I've never seriously read Descartes and I plan to avoid doing so as long as I can. What I'm saying is that it's important to ask if the hour-glass exists if indeed you something in it. Clearly, we are delusional a lot of the time, thus what we perceive to be reality cannot be totally accepted as such. We are real, it seems, and we experience all things around us. I'm not saying that everything else doesn't exist, but is a rock aware of another rock? No, it's not, we are aware of things, we are sentient, and that means that we exist. The issue is that the physical basis of such sentience really may in itself be an illusion, because if it were, there would be absolutely no way to know. This is different than proposing a specific phenomenon like the flying spaghetti monster because it's a theory for everything, and it lacks definition. That's what bothers me about that metaphor; god doesn't even have a distinct definition, so why should you use such a distinct parody?

Seriously, go read Descartes, he covers everything you just talked about and much more thoroughly (if you want I even have the relevant chapters on my computer I could send you). Plus he offers an answer. You may not realize it, but what you're trying to argue is actually the philosophical basis of modern science.

And like I said, while everything can be doubted you have to realize that by doing so you don't make your God, soul, or religion any more valid. It still doesn't have any evidence and there still isn't any logical reason to believe in it (in fact religious belief becomes even more illogical since you're saying that we shouldn't completely believe in anything except our own conciousness).

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battlefront23

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#214 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Why does he need personal gain? HE'S THE ALMIGHTY!!!!

Video_Game_King

You tell me. While we're at it, why does he need validation of his own being? Sounds like an insecure bastard. Is God a bullied high school nerd?

He doesn't need personal gain... he wasn't trying to prove anything besides the fact that he is in control...This argument has gone nowhere and since you're disbelief in God is so SEVERELY strong, why do you even want answers from me? Same with SubZero

How did he prove he was in control? Satan was the one screwing with Job. And couldn't he just prove it by controlling Satan into believing him? As to why I'm "against" Christianity, I'm just naturally argumentative.

The fact Satan aksed him for permission...

Really? Have the passage ready? I believe Satan just said "He only loves you due to his good fortune. He'd go straight for me as soon as you took it away", to which God replied "Oh yea? Go screw with his environment, but don't touch him!"

Nice wording anyway... NKJV "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fromon the earth, and from walking back and forth in it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing... But now stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#215 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

battlefront23

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

Then God is infringing on freewill. If god is doing that he is thus controling people from making a text, which is a completely contridiction. And I am not speaking about the original Bibile, say the Bible was written by god.. Fair enough I can't argue one way or another.. But what I can argue is the bibles of today are not perfect because it has been rewritten by man a perfect being through thousands of years. There is gonna be odvious difference not to mention biases.. To think that the bible is 100% accurate of today compared to 2000 years ago is rediculous.. God did not have a hand in these bibles, man has and it has fundamentally changed.. Whehter it was purposely or by accident through translations, misinterpratations etc etc.

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#216 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

he preordains our choices (this is some deep stuff, so I understand if you don't get it at first) In other words he knows exactly what choices we are going to have before we have them... If evil goes to far: as such as slavery, murder, immorality etc. then he already has some country or civilization preordained to destroy the cause of that sin...

sSubZerOo

Are you insulting my intelligence? Anyway, back on track with this. So he allows the evil to exist in the first place? Why doesn't he just make us avoid it? And if he wants to make us suffer for not worshipping him, he must be one insecure man. And just to prove God is evil....

No I really was not trying to stab at your intelligence sorry... he doesn't want you to suffer cuz you don't worship him... many Christians suffer all the time...

No offense but I don't understand how people know the inner workings ofa being they claim to be beyond comprehension? Just seems alittle contridictory... That being said evil and good are subjective, with out religion/god mankind would still have a understanding of these ideas, if they were not following a religion.

Could you restate that?

My point is the fact that you sound like you actually know the being.. When that is not true, you have read froma 2000 year old text that has been warped through constant rewrittings.. I find it kind of rediculous that you state it as supposed fact.. Maybe you should say its in your belief the being doesn't want you to suffer? This seems kind of a contridiction when most claim god to be perfect beyond our reasoning, how can people be entirely sure the true motives can beso easilly discerned.. And you can't use the Bible as a form of evidence not only has it been changed by translations not to mention peoples bias, but numerous passages can't even be agreed on meaning...

Also the whole idea of good and evil are subjective and fit completely with in the constructs of man and culture. God has no equation in this idea, in less the being is in direct control of our lives and civilization which is a contridiction to free will.

where is this proof of the scripture changing? Where?

You have to be kidding me are you this ignorant.. Other then the fact of thousands of translations (languages arn't 1:1 word meanigns) which can cause a huge varience.. As well as the fact that during the dark ages mankind was controled by brutal regimes.. We can point out that there are hundreds if not thousands of different versions of bibles all with some different material matter.. I am not saying the original bible or yoru beliefs are wrong.. but I do call any one who thinks the Bible is 100% or even 80% accurate to the original is a bloody fool..

Where? Haven't answered this... Almost all Bible variations are not different material, maybe different grammar... but that doesn't change anything.

......Wow just wow.. First you completely go against it then you break down saying it has different Grammar.... There is a huge difference speically with alot of these stories.. And as I said before there have ALWAYS been differences in the Bible, if there wasn't there would be only ONE DENOMINATION of Christianity, yet there is many.

When did I go against it? I'm sick of you putting words in my mouth! ALL denominations that ARE need only to believe this to got to heaven: Jesus died for our sins and he is coming back. That is all. Now, someone's gonna say so I can believe in God and still sin? That wouldn't be true Christianity...

.... This is morally flawed.. Why would god refuse people morally superior for a group of people which consist of ones born into a religion rather given full choice of believing it or not. If god was just why wouldn't the being judge upon a persons characters and actions, rather then a belief that seems really circumstantial.

Why are they doing these actions is what I ask... if right and wrong is subjective, why are they doing these things...

Put it in this perspective, if god created moral action then we infact are controled and do not have free will, because god has preordainted our decision making at hand.. If god RECOGNIZES good action, then god does not control morality and is completely seperate of it..

And it is subjective.. 500 years ago, oppression of womens rights and slavery were perfectly normal and not considered unjust acts. As our society evolved our values change, it has nothing to do with god or religion. Also our ideas are very much affected by society in general.

Kane hada interesting idea on this.. That overall we are controeld by our society in general... We do have moments in life where competing moral deicisons are at war with in our head.. These significant moments are thought through indeterminism where at random we may change our decision if brought upon it again.. This forms our character..

Like I said earlier I have no problem with Christianity it just perturbs me how alot oc Christians present their ideas as fact. As well as not admitting that there is no flaws in any of their beliefs or ideas. For me for instance I will accept people to say I believe in god etc etc.. What I can't handle is the rediculousness of "there is a god and they would never harm us".. How can people have such knownledge of the inner workings of a being that people claim is outside the laws of physics and everything else.

I agree in the sense that God can only be described so much... he is a very mysterious God.

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#217 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

sSubZerOo

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

Then God is infringing on freewill. If god is doing that he is thus controling people from making a text, which is a completely contridiction.

Nah, God preordained their decisions, thus he didn't infringe...

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gameguy6700

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#218 gameguy6700
Member since 2004 • 12197 Posts
[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Why does he need personal gain? HE'S THE ALMIGHTY!!!!

battlefront23

You tell me. While we're at it, why does he need validation of his own being? Sounds like an insecure bastard. Is God a bullied high school nerd?

He doesn't need personal gain... he wasn't trying to prove anything besides the fact that he is in control...This argument has gone nowhere and since you're disbelief in God is so SEVERELY strong, why do you even want answers from me? Same with SubZero

How did he prove he was in control? Satan was the one screwing with Job. And couldn't he just prove it by controlling Satan into believing him? As to why I'm "against" Christianity, I'm just naturally argumentative.

The fact Satan aksed him for permission...

Really? Have the passage ready? I believe Satan just said "He only loves you due to his good fortune. He'd go straight for me as soon as you took it away", to which God replied "Oh yea? Go screw with his environment, but don't touch him!"

Nice wording anyway... NKJV "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fromon the earth, and from walking back and forth in it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing... But now stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

Good job defeating yourself. Nowhere in that quote does Satan ask for permission. The conversation goes:

God: "So Satan, what have you been up to?"
Satan: "Just walking around the Earth"
God: "Have you seen this guy named Job? He's my most loyal worshipper"
Satan: "Pssh...he's only loyal because he has a perfect life"
God: "Oh, oh yeah?! Well why don't go you go screw up his life then and make him miserable?! Ye..yeah! Then we'll see who's right! Just don't kill the guy"
Satan: "its a bet"

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#219 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

Nice wording anyway... NKJV "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fromon the earth, and from walking back and forth in it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing... But now stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

battlefront23

Let me summarize:

Hey Satan, what've you been doing?God

Travel, you know.Satan

You seen Job? Good follower.God

Oh please, he only worships you because he has a good life. If his life sucked, he'd curse you!Satan

Really, ya think so? Here, screw with everything around him. Don't touch him, though.God

Satan doesn't ask for permission, but God gives it.

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#220 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

sSubZerOo

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

Then God is infringing on freewill. If god is doing that he is thus controling people from making a text, which is a completely contridiction. And I am not speaking about the original Bibile, say the Bible was written by god.. Fair enough I can't argue one way or another.. But what I can argue is the bibles of today are not perfect because it has been rewritten by man a perfect being through thousands of years. There is gonna be odvious difference not to mention biases.. To think that the bible is 100% accurate of today compared to 2000 years ago is rediculous.. God did not have a hand in these bibles, man has and it has fundamentally changed.. Whehter it was purposely or by accident through translations, misinterpratations etc etc.

But do you think the mishaps were huge or minor? I say very, very minor...

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#221 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Nice wording anyway... NKJV "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fromon the earth, and from walking back and forth in it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing... But now stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

Video_Game_King

Let me summarize:

Hey Satan, what've you been doing?God

Travel, you know.Satan

You seen Job? Good follower.God

Oh please, he only worships you because he has a good life. If his life sucked, he'd curse you!Satan

Really, ya think so? Here, screw with everything around him. Don't touch him, though.God

Satan doesn't ask for permission, but God gives it.

But Satan had to go before God and God gave him the ability...

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#222 greenprince
Member since 2006 • 3332 Posts
[QUOTE="greenprince"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="greenprince"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="Mythbuster4ever"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="Mythbuster4ever"]

[QUOTE="KillaHalo2o9"]I'm not and I'm proud.gameguy6700

ZOMG ME TOOO YAY

Sciencce wont help you.

During 9-11, noo= one prayed to science.

Judging by the death figures from 9/11 I think its safe to say that religion won't help you either.

*cough*

I have a really bad cough, and nothings helping. And soad burns. Its getting anonying. And check out that pic I just posted.

What am I looking at? Looks like a piece of cloth on top of a cross...I don't see what it has to do with any of this.

I guess you're blind also...

If this picture is supposed to show a cross saving a church or something then shut up. 2,500+ people died on 9/11, most of whom were Christian. That cross probably saved, what, 10 people max? You don't think the people trapped on the planes that were flown into the pentagon and towers prayed? Or that people trapped on the upper floors of the WTC prayed to god to save them from the fire the same way that he saved some Jews in that bible story whose name I can't remember. And speaking of Jews, God's chosen people, why didn't God do anything to save them from the holocaust? Get it now? A fraction of a fraction of Christians get saved by a freak coincidence and attribute that to god, yet when most of them die just like expected its suddenly all part of "God's plan". Here's a good way to put it: If you get sick with a curable type of cancer, who are you going to turn to? Medical science or religion?

There was a huge explosion that engulfed several floors of the tower at once. Did God miraculously sustain the tower for an additional 30 minutes to allow people to escape? Given these circumstances, it seems likely that God miraculously intervened to limit the death toll in the attack on the World Trade Center towers.

The third airliner crashed into the Pentagon. However, the side of the building hit was under renovation, limiting the loss of life. If the terrorists had crashed directly into the Pentagon from the original direction of flight (the plane had passed the Pentagon and made a 270 degree turn prior to impact), the loss of life would have been ten times greater. Was God involved in this?

The fourth airliner did not even reach its intended destination (probably the Capitol Building in Washington D.C.). Although God did not bring down this airliner directly, His people were involved in thwarting the attempt at mass destruction. Todd Beamer, a graduate of Wheaton College, a dedicated Christian who taught Sunday School, led a charge against the hijackers who had commandeered flight 93, resulting in the plane crashing into an unpopulated field outside of Pittsburgh. As it turned out, the plane crashed just 2 miles from an elementary school. Was God involved in steering the airliner away from the school?

It seems to me that you're focusing on the negative aspects of 9/11. I do not blame you but that type of perspective is bias at-most. It seems to me that you forgot that God granted freewill to all individuals and that includes Hitler and the Nazis, therefore they are the ones responsible for such atrocities not God. Another thing, religion and science are not exclusive therefore I choose both.

Or God could have made all the hijackers suffer from a heart attack instead or something else like that. That way the bad men still die and no casuality numbers in the thousands. Plus we avoid two wars in the middle east.

But hey, since you're so good at treating coincidence as divine intervention, what were some examples of God using damage control during the holocaust? Or the crusades? Or the Oklahoma City Bombing (he saved a bunch of grade schoolers from death according to your story so obviously he would have saved the daycare that was located in the...oh wait, no he didn't. Those kids died or got seriously maimed).

But then he would interfere with their free will of what they want to do wouldn't it? Another, thing you must consider is that they weren't truly evil. The terrorists truly believe they were doing the right thing but were brainwashed or influence to believe it just. If they weren't fully influence by bad role models,and raised normally, odds are they would reconsider their evil actions.

I agree that there is a lot of evil in the world. In fact, there is too much evil in the world from what would be expected from chaos theory or the laws of physics.Look at all the evil perpetuated in the last century alone - 6 million Jews killed by Hitler 40 million Russians killed by Stalin, 2 million Cambodians killed by their own government in the 1970's. In fact, the Pol Pot regime specifically preached atheism and sought to exterminate all religious expression in Cambodia. In addition to these atrocities, there have been hundreds of massacres committed in virtually every nation of the world. The Bible says that the presence of evil is due to the spiritual component of our nature - something that animals do not possess.

God endowed His spiritual creatures (humans and angels) with free will to love God or to oppose Him. The most powerful created being (the angel Satan) rebelled and led one third of the angels into opposition against God. Those humans who oppose or ignore God follow Satan into rebellion - either consciously or unconsciously. Some people blame the evil on "society." However, society is composed of individuals who make individual choices. Most of the evil is committed by people who oppose the will of society. In contrast, there are many examples of societies in the animal kingdom, especially among the primates. None of these societies have the capacity for evil that we have. We are different from all other animals on our planet - a fact that has no scientific or evolutionary explanation.

Again, you are looking at the negative aspects of the situation which clouds your judgement. There is a reason why we have choices, and how are choices whether good or bad has a outcome or consequence. Instead of blaming God for mankind's problems, you should consider that mankind started these problems. God is there for support, he is all powerful and it is foretold in the future of Christian belief that he will cleanse the world of sin and malice. And the punishthe wicked. Until then all we could do is make the world as moral as it can possibly be.

I thought you would say that. Might I redirect you to your previous post:

Although God did not bring down this airliner directly, His people were involved in thwarting the attempt at mass destruction. Todd Beamer, a graduate of Wheaton College, a dedicated Christian who taught Sunday School, led a charge against the hijackers who had commandeered flight 93, resulting in the plane crashing into an unpopulated field outside of Pittsburgh.greenprince

So which is it? Does God interfere with free will or not? Because causing someone to have a heart attack requires much less interference in their free will (in fact it requires none) than making someone decide to board a plane in order to put them in a position to stop terrorists.

I'll go ahead and answer that question for you: yes, god interferes with free will. Remember in exodus when Moses is trying to get the Pharaoh to free the slaves? The bible explicitly states multiple times that God forced the pharoh to not let the slaves go (he "hardened his heart") just so God could kill off every first born male in Egypt to make a point.

What are you talking about? causing a person heat attacks before they commit to an act or board the plane as you claimed interferes with their decision or free will of doing so. God did not stop the hijackers it states that his followers did. You are confusing my words, sorry if you found my words confusing and mixed.

God did not force the Pharoh to have a hardened hear as you clamied. But according to 1 Samuel 6:6, God didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart; the Pharaoh did it himself .

An excellent explanation is available that account for the Exodus declarations, each perfectly plausible and sufficient to Both explanations pertain to the fact that every language has its own way of using certain types of words and phrases that might appear odd to a person not familiar with the language. For instance, suppose a person commented that his boss became angry and bit his head off."Would anyone think that the speaker actually had his head bitten off? English-speaking people understand this example of figurative speech.In the same way, the biblical languages had idioms, colloquialisms, Semitisms, and word usages peculiar to them, which those familiar with the language would understand.

With that in mind, list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission,So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages. He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people': i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophet. Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet: i.e. I have permitted him to deceive himself. in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

I can see why you can get the worng message but the wirting and interpetion of the Bible is so mixed and diverse that you can get that problem.

I'm really sorry but I can not contiune this conversation. If you want to continue it please pm or add me in your friend list but it is 12am where I live (Canada) and I must sleep.

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#223 Naked_Shooter
Member since 2006 • 164 Posts

Damn straight, not only do I get my sundays free but I also get to watch The Golden Compass with glee!

Rifkin-

I'm not an atheist. Neither am I a poious hardcore Christian, or anything like that. I still get to have my Sundays free, and watch Golden Compass - with disgust. You know why? Because the Golden Compass book was not anti-religeon, or anti-catholic. It was one of the greatest trilogies I've ever read (though I don't do alot of reading). But the movie was just terrible, and from the sound of it, you've enjoyed something awful, that you could have had ten thousand times more pleasure in reading.

Also, after reading it, you would have found that Religeon of any kind gives everything a meaning - something that the idiots which sensored Golden Compass, stripping it of ALL the memorable moments, didn't have any interest in finding.

No, being an atheist shouldn't make you proud. It's offensive and disgusting when atheist people look down upon religeous people, acting like they know everything, and like they are superior in reason.

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#224 Bulldog19892
Member since 2005 • 3520 Posts
I'm an atheist.
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#225 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts
[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Nice wording anyway... NKJV "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fromon the earth, and from walking back and forth in it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing... But now stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

battlefront23

Let me summarize:

Hey Satan, what've you been doing?God

Travel, you know.Satan

You seen Job? Good follower.God

Oh please, he only worships you because he has a good life. If his life sucked, he'd curse you!Satan

Really, ya think so? Here, screw with everything around him. Don't touch him, though.God

Satan doesn't ask for permission, but God gives it.

But Satan had to go before God and God gave him the ability...

Satan only visited God. He didn't go there specifically to get the ability to screw with Job and everything around him.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#226 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

battlefront23

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

Then God is infringing on freewill. If god is doing that he is thus controling people from making a text, which is a completely contridiction. And I am not speaking about the original Bibile, say the Bible was written by god.. Fair enough I can't argue one way or another.. But what I can argue is the bibles of today are not perfect because it has been rewritten by man a perfect being through thousands of years. There is gonna be odvious difference not to mention biases.. To think that the bible is 100% accurate of today compared to 2000 years ago is rediculous.. God did not have a hand in these bibles, man has and it has fundamentally changed.. Whehter it was purposely or by accident through translations, misinterpratations etc etc.

But do you think the mishaps were huge or minor? I say very, very minor...

Who knows there is absolutely no idea.. Yet again i am not saying Christianity is right or wrong.. It could be huge for all we know.. I just think people need to stop having such polarizing statements coming from their mouth like "only peopel who believe in Jesus will go to heaven", for all we know that statment could be wrong. And it ponders my mind how people at one hand will say that the being is beyond our understanding, physics, reality etc etc.. Yet right after they will say something about the inner workings of god.. Wiat if this being is beyond our understaning how can such statements be made to beign with? This is a contridiction...

This is like saying that no one knows anything about Bob.. Then right after saying that he likes cheese burgers..

The good values showed in the book can be followed I just think its rather foolish to take verythign word for word from any such text.. Because in the end the text has been rewritten by man hundreds if not thousands of times..

In the end of the day religion is one thing, and character is quite another. They can be related but character does not require religion to survive.. So why is god judgment include belief? Can we really say that a man like Gandi did not go to this paradise? Merely because he was born in the wrong reigion at the wrong time.

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#227 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="battlefront23"]

Nice wording anyway... NKJV "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fromon the earth, and from walking back and forth in it." Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing... But now stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."

Video_Game_King

Let me summarize:

Hey Satan, what've you been doing?God

Travel, you know.Satan

You seen Job? Good follower.God

Oh please, he only worships you because he has a good life. If his life sucked, he'd curse you!Satan

Really, ya think so? Here, screw with everything around him. Don't touch him, though.God

Satan doesn't ask for permission, but God gives it.

But Satan had to go before God and God gave him the ability...

Satan only visited God. He didn't go there specifically to get the ability to screw with Job and everything around him.

How would you know that?

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battlefront23

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#228 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts
[QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

sSubZerOo

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

Then God is infringing on freewill. If god is doing that he is thus controling people from making a text, which is a completely contridiction. And I am not speaking about the original Bibile, say the Bible was written by god.. Fair enough I can't argue one way or another.. But what I can argue is the bibles of today are not perfect because it has been rewritten by man a perfect being through thousands of years. There is gonna be odvious difference not to mention biases.. To think that the bible is 100% accurate of today compared to 2000 years ago is rediculous.. God did not have a hand in these bibles, man has and it has fundamentally changed.. Whehter it was purposely or by accident through translations, misinterpratations etc etc.

But do you think the mishaps were huge or minor? I say very, very minor...

Who knows there is absolutely no idea.. Yet again i am not saying Christianity is right or wrong.. It could be huge for all we know.. I just think people need to stop having such polarizing statements coming from their mouth like "only peopel who believe in Jesus will go to heaven", for all we know that statment could be wrong. And it ponders my mind how people at one hand will say that the being is beyond our understanding, physics, reality etc etc.. Yet right after they will say something about the inner workings of god.. Wiat if this being is beyond our understaning how can such statements be made to beign with? This is a contridiction...

This is like saying that no one knows anything about Bob.. Then right after saying that he likes cheese burgers..

It doesn't really seem like we're going anywhere! :P

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#229 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

How would you know that?

battlefront23

Mind showing me the passage where Satan plans to go to Heaven and present his idea for wrecking the life of a devout follower of the lord?

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#230 gameguy6700
Member since 2004 • 12197 Posts

What are you talking about? causing a person heat attacks before they commit to an act or board the plane as you claimed interferes with their decision or free will of doing so. God did not stop the hijackers it states that his followers did. You are confusing my words, sorry if you found my words confusing and mixed.

God did not force the Pharoh to have a hardened hear as you clamied. But according to 1 Samuel 6:6, God didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart; the Pharaoh did it himself .

An excellent explanation is available that account for the Exodus declarations, each perfectly plausible and sufficient to Both explanations pertain to the fact that every language has its own way of using certain types of words and phrases that might appear odd to a person not familiar with the language. For instance, suppose a person commented that his boss became angry and bit his head off."Would anyone think that the speaker actually had his head bitten off? English-speaking people understand this example of figurative speech.In the same way, the biblical languages had idioms, colloquialisms, Semitisms, and word usages peculiar to them, which those familiar with the language would understand.

With that in mind, list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission,So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages. He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people': i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophet. Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet: i.e. I have permitted him to deceive himself. in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

I can see why you can get the worng message but the wirting and interpetion of the Bible is so mixed and diverse that you can get that problem.

I'm really sorry but I can not contiune this conversation. If you want to continue it please pm or add me in your friend list but it is 12am where I live (Canada) and I must sleep.

greenprince

Don't get hung up on the pharoh thing. The issue here is free will. You claimed that God caused a bunch of Christians to board one of the hijacked 9/11 planes in order to stop the hijackers. That's interfering with free will just as much as a heart attack. And I say it interferes with it more because with a heart attack the person just dies before they can do what they wanted (which interfers with free will no more than any other death in history). However, forcing someone to decide to take a flight in order to put them on a certain plane is interfering with a person's conciousness. And even more so....THE PEOPLE WHOM YOU CLAIM GOD FORCED ON THAT PLANE DIED. So right there god is interefering with their free will again according to you. He makes them decide to take a flight and then makes them die.

And I haven't mentioned this yet because I didn't want the topic turning into this (though I think it may have already) but if god is omniscient that means he knows everything including the future. And if he knows the future he knows what decisions you'll make. And if he knows that then you can't ever act in conflict with his knowledge since God's knowledge is perfect. In other words, if God knows everything then you have no free will to begin with.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#231 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="battlefront23"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"][QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]

I am trying to tell you that this idea of good in return from this context would be god protecting mankind from Satan.. But isn't the being always suppose todo that? Job lived avirtoius life, and god basically allowed Satan to harm him all for a bet..

battlefront23

Actually, he DID. On the second day, though. First day was everything around him.

Yeah including his family.. Makes so much sense, I guess we still considered them property back then..

Now you're just being overly literal. The point remains that God would defile a man's life for something as meager as a bet with Lucifer, Prince of Darkness.

You need to read the Bible this was not a bet... how is having faith in Job a bet? :shock:

Yet again this goes against God's attribute of being Omnipetent.. He is outside of time and thus can go any where the being choose.. The being does not need faith because it sees everything Job is made up of, everything Job has done an dwill do through out his life.

I'm sorry my bad... hope? I really want to understand what your guys' problem with Christianity is.

I have no problem with Christanity.. I just can't stand that you think that the Bible is 100% accurate to this date.. This has nothing to dow ith Christanity it self it has to do with it being passed down by man.. No where do I say that god doesn't exist.. It also perturbs me how you guys state your ideas as being 100% fact with no IMO's or beliefs..

God doesn't need hope either, it is a perfect being and has none such attributes because it needs none such attributes.. It knows the outcome of all things, because it is outside of time by the deifnitions provdied by most people as being outside the laws of physics. If god is outside of time when the being looks ona person the being is able to see both the future and present past, and the very thoughts with in their head.. God shouldn't need tot ake a bet because god knows exactly what Job is going to do.. Now this doesn't contridict free will..

All I am saying is I think the Story of Job is a flawed story that contridcts god in multipel attributes.. This doesn't mean Christanity or the Bible is 100% wrong, I just think that story was created by man.. (this is even if the bible was form god, which I am indifferent on.. Could really care less)

Just show me where ther is disproofs... I seriously want to see it.

I just pointed out that there are numerous different versions of bibles, along with numerous different sects of Christianity where some havea great deal in difference... Apparenlty you can't understand this... How bout the fact that we can all agree if the original Bible existed that it was more or less PERFECT. This PERFECT text got translated and rewritten for over 2000 years by IMPERFECT beings. To think that the text is 100% accurate is not only ignorant, but arrogant at best. This is like having god draw a perfect circle and try to have mankind free hand it.. It will always be imperfect and as the design passes down it will keep degenerating from the said perfection.

But don't you think that God would make sure his book had no imperfections? You are right if God did not have his hand on the writing of the Bible itself...

Then God is infringing on freewill. If god is doing that he is thus controling people from making a text, which is a completely contridiction.

Nah, God preordained their decisions, thus he didn't infringe...

For freewill to exist god can never preordain.. God can see the workings of man and eveyrthing that man will do, but to freewill to exist that being must not act or do anything with that knownledge.. This preordainment would be like me putting you in a rats maze and know exactly where your going and if god didn't like something (such as the bible being changed) then the being would be putting up a artificial wall to stop youf rom doing it.. This is a infringement of free will..

Because in the end your still be restricted from a choice, where the agent is contributing nothing towards the decision.

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deactivated-59d151f079814

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#232 deactivated-59d151f079814
Member since 2003 • 47239 Posts
[QUOTE="greenprince"]

What are you talking about? causing a person heat attacks before they commit to an act or board the plane as you claimed interferes with their decision or free will of doing so. God did not stop the hijackers it states that his followers did. You are confusing my words, sorry if you found my words confusing and mixed.

God did not force the Pharoh to have a hardened hear as you clamied. But according to 1 Samuel 6:6, God didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart; the Pharaoh did it himself .

An excellent explanation is available that account for the Exodus declarations, each perfectly plausible and sufficient to Both explanations pertain to the fact that every language has its own way of using certain types of words and phrases that might appear odd to a person not familiar with the language. For instance, suppose a person commented that his boss became angry and bit his head off."Would anyone think that the speaker actually had his head bitten off? English-speaking people understand this example of figurative speech.In the same way, the biblical languages had idioms, colloquialisms, Semitisms, and word usages peculiar to them, which those familiar with the language would understand.

With that in mind, list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission,So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages. He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people': i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophet. Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet: i.e. I have permitted him to deceive himself. in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

I can see why you can get the worng message but the wirting and interpetion of the Bible is so mixed and diverse that you can get that problem.

I'm really sorry but I can not contiune this conversation. If you want to continue it please pm or add me in your friend list but it is 12am where I live (Canada) and I must sleep.

gameguy6700

Don't get hung up on the pharoh thing. The issue here is free will. You claimed that God caused a bunch of Christians to board one of the hijacked 9/11 planes in order to stop the hijackers. That's interfering with free will just as much as a heart attack. And I say it interferes with it more because with a heart attack the person just dies before they can do what they wanted (which interfers with free will no more than any other death in history). However, forcing someone to decide to take a flight in order to put them on a certain plane is interfering with a person's conciousness. And even more so....THE PEOPLE WHOM YOU CLAIM GOD FORCED ON THAT PLANE DIED. So right there god is interefering with their free will again according to you. He makes them decide to take a flight and then makes them die.

And I haven't mentioned this yet because I didn't want the topic turning into this (though I think it may have already) but if god is omniscient that means he knows everything including the future. And if he knows the future he knows what decisions you'll make. And if he knows that then you can't ever act in conflict with his knowledge since God's knowledge is perfect. In other words, if God knows everything then you have no free will to begin with.

The last part isn't 100% true.. Philosophically god could merely just not act on this knowledge to run this course and we would still have free iwll.. Just because the being is outside of time and sees our every move doesn't mean it decides our destiny.. The only way it would do that is if it started acting on this knownledge or other such ideas.

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gameguy6700

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#233 gameguy6700
Member since 2004 • 12197 Posts
[QUOTE="gameguy6700"][QUOTE="greenprince"]

What are you talking about? causing a person heat attacks before they commit to an act or board the plane as you claimed interferes with their decision or free will of doing so. God did not stop the hijackers it states that his followers did. You are confusing my words, sorry if you found my words confusing and mixed.

God did not force the Pharoh to have a hardened hear as you clamied. But according to 1 Samuel 6:6, God didn't harden the Pharaoh's heart; the Pharaoh did it himself .

An excellent explanation is available that account for the Exodus declarations, each perfectly plausible and sufficient to Both explanations pertain to the fact that every language has its own way of using certain types of words and phrases that might appear odd to a person not familiar with the language. For instance, suppose a person commented that his boss became angry and bit his head off."Would anyone think that the speaker actually had his head bitten off? English-speaking people understand this example of figurative speech.In the same way, the biblical languages had idioms, colloquialisms, Semitisms, and word usages peculiar to them, which those familiar with the language would understand.

With that in mind, list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission,So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages. He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people': i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophet. Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet: i.e. I have permitted him to deceive himself. in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh's heart to be hardened.

I can see why you can get the worng message but the wirting and interpetion of the Bible is so mixed and diverse that you can get that problem.

I'm really sorry but I can not contiune this conversation. If you want to continue it please pm or add me in your friend list but it is 12am where I live (Canada) and I must sleep.

sSubZerOo

Don't get hung up on the pharoh thing. The issue here is free will. You claimed that God caused a bunch of Christians to board one of the hijacked 9/11 planes in order to stop the hijackers. That's interfering with free will just as much as a heart attack. And I say it interferes with it more because with a heart attack the person just dies before they can do what they wanted (which interfers with free will no more than any other death in history). However, forcing someone to decide to take a flight in order to put them on a certain plane is interfering with a person's conciousness. And even more so....THE PEOPLE WHOM YOU CLAIM GOD FORCED ON THAT PLANE DIED. So right there god is interefering with their free will again according to you. He makes them decide to take a flight and then makes them die.

And I haven't mentioned this yet because I didn't want the topic turning into this (though I think it may have already) but if god is omniscient that means he knows everything including the future. And if he knows the future he knows what decisions you'll make. And if he knows that then you can't ever act in conflict with his knowledge since God's knowledge is perfect. In other words, if God knows everything then you have no free will to begin with.

The last part isn't 100% true.. Philosophically god could merely just not act on this knowledge to run this course and we would still have free iwll.. Just because the being is outside of time and sees our every move doesn't mean it decides our destiny.. The only way it would do that is if it started acting on this knownledge or other such ideas.

Yes, that's certainly correct. However, whether or not God's knowledge nesseciatates the absence of free will or is merely a side effect is unimportant to this issue. Either way there cannot be free will if God is truly omniscient and as a result God is free to interfere with our lives since they're predetermined no matter what he does.

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fkholmes

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#234 fkholmes
Member since 2006 • 8887 Posts

[QUOTE="Rifkin-"]Its not disbelief, its rational thought.foxhound_fox

No. It isn't. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. A belief that has no empirical evidence to prove it correct.

Actually, Atheism is about a lack of belief. There is no proof to support God, however there is almost no way to prove the non-existence of something.

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cowboymonkey21

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#235 cowboymonkey21
Member since 2007 • 5297 Posts
Im proud of it! I know the truth of whats gonna happen when im going to die.GamingThief
What would that be exactly?
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Video_Game_King

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#236 Video_Game_King
Member since 2003 • 27545 Posts

[QUOTE="foxhound_fox"][QUOTE="Rifkin-"]Its not disbelief, its rational thought.fkholmes


No. It isn't. Atheism is the belief that God does not exist. A belief that has no empirical evidence to prove it correct.

Actually, Atheism is about a lack of belief. There is no proof to support God, however there is almost no way to prove the non-existence of something.

Actually, its impossible to disprove the existence of anything, as doing so would only serve to empower the existence of that which you were trying to disprove.

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foxhound_fox

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#237 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
Actually, Atheism is about a lack of belief. There is no proof to support God, however there is almost no way to prove the non-existence of something.fkholmes

Incorrect. One cannot "lack" belief. You either believe something to be true, or your believe it to be false. You believe God exists, you believe God does not exist or you believe something else entirely. You can not "lack" belief.
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Argreras

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#238 Argreras
Member since 2007 • 84 Posts
[QUOTE="fkholmes"]Actually, Atheism is about a lack of belief. There is no proof to support God, however there is almost no way to prove the non-existence of something.foxhound_fox

Incorrect. One cannot "lack" belief. You either believe something to be true, or your believe it to be false. You believe God exists, you believe God does not exist or you believe something else entirely. You can not "lack" belief.



I believe in unsure opinion, dshouldn't that mean that someone doesn't have to either believe or not believe at all?

And since I'm late, alright, I'm not alone! :D
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foxhound_fox

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#239 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts
I believe in unsure opinion, dshouldn't that mean that someone doesn't have to either believe or not believe at all?

And since I'm late, alright, I'm not alone! :D
Argreras

Which is the reason why I included: "...or you believe something else entirely."

I was not trying to generalize everyone's beliefs, I was just trying to point out that one cannot "lack" belief. ;)
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#240 gasmaskman
Member since 2005 • 3463 Posts

[QUOTE="white_sox"]Remember Jesus when you are opening your presents on his birthday.
Link256

Pft... lot of people who not atheist are guilty of that one, including certain number of Christians.


Too bad not only was he NOT born on Dec. 25th, but it's been celebrated long before Christianity became popular.

Remember the Winter Solstice when you're opening presents celebrating it, like they have for millenniums.

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tiger35010

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#241 tiger35010
Member since 2004 • 859 Posts

I am a non-practicing catholic. The reason for catholic: born into it. Reason for non-practicing: i cant bring my self to believe in a god at this point in my life.

Take a minute and think about how god loves all of his children, thats every person on earth. Now turn on your local news channel. Go ahead, i'll wait. What did you find? A couple drive-by shootings and a dead body found in some abandoned place? how sad....

If there is a god, how could he let these things happen? War, violence, rape. i am sorry, but i have lost confidence in my "god."

aronmauk
same....most of my faith was lost due to the "church" twisting the name of Jesus/God for their religious benifit. They've been at it since Christianity became a common belief instead of an underground cult
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Bgrngod

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#242 Bgrngod
Member since 2002 • 5766 Posts

I'm an Atheist.

i don't see why I should be proud of it though.

thriteenthmonke

Same. It's just the way it is.

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double_decker

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#243 double_decker
Member since 2006 • 146090 Posts

Damn straight, not only do I get my sundays free but I also get to watch The Golden Compass with glee!

Rifkin-
If you are going to take advantage of Sunday... why not football? :P
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123625

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#244 123625
Member since 2006 • 9035 Posts

okay? be proud of it.

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tyvivanco

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#245 tyvivanco
Member since 2003 • 1201 Posts
no im not i am christian and proud of it
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bman784

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#246 bman784
Member since 2004 • 6755 Posts
My problem with religion is how prevalent it is. The fact that the three main monotheistic religions encompass a sizable chunk of the earth's population scares me. Those people have all taken the logic defying path of following a piece of anecdotal literature based on pure belief, and they inherently think that they are absolutely right. Sure we don't know everything about the order and function of the universe, but how can a piece of literature written two centuries ago with no backing or verification adequately provide answers?
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smarb001

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#247 smarb001
Member since 2005 • 2325 Posts
[QUOTE="Rifkin-"]

Damn straight, not only do I get my sundays free but I also get to watch The Golden Compass with glee!

ryangb

cool, i wish i could be christian and get my sundays free and be able to watch The Golden Compass, WITH GLEE, what a treat cuz that movie looks like itll be in theatres for about a week. And im glad your proud to be an athiest, it doesnt matter, proud athiest or not, youre still going to hell.

you know who else is going to hell? you are, for being ignorant and judgemental.

I in the other hand will live my life how i want not bound by the rules of some magical bearded pixie.

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smarb001

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#248 smarb001
Member since 2005 • 2325 Posts
[QUOTE="Rifkin-"]

Damn straight, not only do I get my sundays free but I also get to watch The Golden Compass with glee!

Naked_Shooter

I'm not an atheist. Neither am I a poious hardcore Christian, or anything like that. I still get to have my Sundays free, and watch Golden Compass - with disgust. You know why? Because the Golden Compass book was not anti-religeon, or anti-catholic. It was one of the greatest trilogies I've ever read (though I don't do alot of reading). But the movie was just terrible, and from the sound of it, you've enjoyed something awful, that you could have had ten thousand times more pleasure in reading.

Also, after reading it, you would have found that Religeon of any kind gives everything a meaning - something that the idiots which sensored Golden Compass, stripping it of ALL the memorable moments, didn't have any interest in finding.

No, being an atheist shouldn't make you proud. It's offensive and disgusting when atheist people look down upon religeous people, acting like they know everything, and like they are superior in reason.

well we are... mostly because being a brainwashed tool for corrupt religious organisations, or believing in something that has NO reason to exist while arguing against the very roots of complex life (evolution) is 100x worse than simply ignoring these stupid premises to worship some guy because you feel like it

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Bourbons3

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#249 Bourbons3
Member since 2003 • 24238 Posts
You're proud because of disbelief? Seems a rather strange thing to be proud of.Rhazakna
Its bring proud in believing in common sense.
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david60639

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#250 david60639
Member since 2005 • 6951 Posts
Proud? WTH?