Atheists.... do you have any morals? If so, how do you define them.

[QUOTE="123625"]

Doesnt change the fact, that those universal good and evils were placed by man and its only how they preceive them to be. But not all men and women think these rules or "universal goods and evils" are partically good or partically bad. You don't all agree on the same moral code. how can it be universal if one person dissagrees with what is normally good or bad?

Aidenfury19

Theres really no room for debate in the utility of courses of action, although you can argue to some degree between the course of action the necessities will always come out on top. What are the basest instincts and requirements? Survival, sustenance and reproduction all of which are to some degree interconnected.

Democratic principals are justified under this system as a means to advance common needs.

As for the issue of whether it is "universal" I don't care to argue symantics with you, there are any number of definitions that you could use for that.

Well you have your beleifs and i have mine laters.

Well you have your beleifs and i have mine laters.

123625

Fair enough, I won't declare myself the winner here even though I think that I did come out on top. ;)

[QUOTE="123625"]

Well you have your beleifs and i have mine laters.

Aidenfury19

Fair enough, I won't declare myself the winner here even though I think that I did come out on top. ;)

You know how to push it don't you. Either way i could care less. All i know is my point wasnt refuted which im happy for, For once.

Just jumping ahead. In order to properly define your morality, you would also have to define what you believe to be as "morally good" and what is "morally bad" -- or in other words, "morally right" or "morally wrong". As, simply saying "My moral code is to be good", would create a situation where the definition of "good" is subjective.

rimnet00

So you want me to give my definition of good and bad? Cause its different in every situation, so I can't define it.

I mean, murder is bad, so the action of killing someone would be wrong, of course. But say the man you intend to murder is about to shoot another person? Killing that person would now be (I know this is not going to go over well with some people, but take it easy, its just my opinion) justified. I would not be able to give my definitions of good and bad, because exactly what constitutes each couldn't be stated.

And I take my moral code from life experience...my morals aren't exactly the kindest around, either.

[QUOTE="Aidenfury19"][QUOTE="123625"]

Well you have your beleifs and i have mine laters.

123625

Fair enough, I won't declare myself the winner here even though I think that I did come out on top. ;)

You know how to push it don't you. Either way i could care less. All i know is my point wasnt refuted which im happy for, For once.

Just your friendly neighborhood disgruntled poster.

This thread is so funny. What about the vast populations of non-christians in asia and africa? Do you think they have no morals because they are not christian?

This is directed at the TC. For one thing, I think you should replace christian morals with religious morals in your original question, since christian morals really doesn't apply to a huge percentage of the human population.

As for my morals, they are based on secular buddhist teachings that originated in India and Tibet, and the idea of natural law. And I am an atheist in case you were wondering. The highest virtue in my book is selflessness. If we can overcome that, then we can overcome "evil" in the world.

Moral for me works as:

Do my doings harm people? Would I feel proud of what I did in a future??

This thread is so funny. What about the vast populations of non-christians in asia and africa? Do you think they have no morals because they are not christian?

This is directed at the TC. For one thing, I think you should replace christian morals with religious morals in your original question, since christian morals really doesn't apply to a huge percentage of the human population.

As for my morals, they are based on secular buddhist teachings that originated in India and Tibet, and the idea of natural law. And I am an atheist in case you were wondering. The highest virtue in my book is selflessness. If we can overcome that, then we can overcome "evil" in the world.

shanelevy

I think the TC is actually muslim.... (Could be wrong)

Morality does not come from religion, or religious beliefs, nor from imaginary supernatural beings (i.e., gods). Religious people can lay no greater claim to morality than atheists.

Moral behavior follows from this: It is wrong to initiate force against other people and their property.

The short explanation for this is that all people own themselves, thus no one else has a right to impose his will on another person.

That's it. It's no great mystery, and as you can see, it has nothing to do with religion. You can elaborate and expound as much as you wish, but that sole principle is the foundation from which moral behavior can be determined.

It is never immoral to exercise your will to do whatever you wish so long as you do not initiate force against other people and their property.

Morality, of course, is optional. A person can choose not to act morally. That does not mean that morality is subjective. There clearly is right and wrong, whether people choose to act in accord with one or the other is up to them. Moral behavior cannot be compelled, since to compel someone is to initiate force against them. That is why it is impossible to legislate morality. Legislation itself is immoral because it seeks to limit what people may do and impose penalties for breaking the law.

Theft, fraud, assault, murder, anything that constitutes initiating force is immoral. That means voting is immoral, establishing governments and making and enforcing law is immoral, state-sponsored homicide (captital punishment) is immoral, wars of aggression are immoral.

It seems to me that morals stem from the teachings of those around us; be it family, friends or congregation. But the reason we may take them on board is our ability to feel. That compassion that is inside us and can see the suffering of others teaches us what can be damaging to others and by definition ourselves.

I guess it is enirely up to each individual how they view this information, but I would say that while I am not a follower of any organised religion I think that the core teachings that can be found in all major religions are a good place to start in this education. Many people believe, religous or otherwise, that this compassion can be disregarded in certain situations as a method of control in society, such as the punishment of criminals, it is up to society as a collective to find the balance between morals and control which allows it to function.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="123625"][QUOTE="gobo212"][QUOTE="123625"]

Because they were made without reason or meaning, there can be no universal good or bad, This Means good and bad is only what they precieve it to be.

123625

While I don't think there is such thing as an objective good or bad I don't understand your logic. How does not being made with purpose = no right and wrong?

please don't cut out half the post i explained what i thought above that statement, common deception.

If you are not the result of being created for meaning and purpose you are without meaning. That meaning is only what you make for yourself then.

Same with good bad.

I was just sharing my thoughts is all.

If you were made for no meaning you make your own. Thats what i was saying. This means good and bad are only how you precieve it.

And since you make your own meaning because you were without meaning, Good and bad is only how you precieve it.

That's exactly right. What we define as good or bad is subjective. You actually took notice of what I said before, which I applaud (unlike Revinh who seems to just project his own beliefs on everything).

Even then, what you define as good or bad based on your religious beliefs is subjective in that another person's religion may contradict what yours says. In one such way, fundamentalist Christians believe a lot of other people are sinners and aren't afraid to say it, whereas fundamentalist Muslims are willing to kill others for heresy. To the Christian what the Muslims do is a grave sin, whereas the Muslims see themselves as a matyr doing God's will.

What is right for one person may not be right for another, but then there comes in to play our personal freedoms. If it doesn't harm anyone, directly or indirectly, it can't essentially be wrong can it? I think that's the major point of many atheists' beliefs.

My parents. They raised me with certain morales. As did their parents to them. Infact, you could probably find the basis of their morale code from a time before religion.

This thread is so funny. What about the vast populations of non-christians in asia and africa? Do you think they have no morals because they are not christian?

This is directed at the TC. For one thing, I think you should replace christian morals with religious morals in your original question, since christian morals really doesn't apply to a huge percentage of the human population.

As for my morals, they are based on secular buddhist teachings that originated in India and Tibet, and the idea of natural law. And I am an atheist in case you were wondering. The highest virtue in my book is selflessness. If we can overcome that, then we can overcome "evil" in the world.

shanelevy

I only read the first page and this page but from what I've read it seems instead of answering his question....everyone got defensive. Ok...you're not religious and you have morals. Fine...but why can't you explain them?

As for those stating family etc....well long ago religion probably paid a part in establishing that morality. Once learned it was passed down even if the religion was not.

Defining yourself as good is not the answer. Good is subjective and a purely selfish person may make immoral choices because he deludes himself that he is good.

With that said.....I'm not in any way stating that I think atheists are not moral people.

Defining yourself as good is not the answer. Good is subjective and a purely selfish person may make immoral choices because he deludes himself that he is good.

LJS9502_basic

I haven't read any posts that came before this but if you're referring to me, let me clarify. I said like "chaotic good" because I figure gamers understand what that means. I've never even played D&D but I'm familiar with it.

Chaotic Good is known as the "Beatific" or "Rebel" alignment. A chaotic good character favors change for the greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom.

I only read the first page and this page but from what I've read it seems instead of answering his question....everyone got defensive. Ok...you're not religious and you have morals. Fine...but why can't you explain them?LJS9502_basic

You don't need to abook to tell you whats right or wrong. You can feel whats right or wrong. It's as simple as that. Are you saying before people found religion they were bad? And I hate to be a downer on religion, but do you honestly know anyone who follows every single good and bad thing thats put forth in the bible?Morphic

Lots of serial killers feel good when they murder.

The first people were Adam and Eve, whom were given their rules of right and wrong by God. Generations of their offspring slowly began to lose their morality however. This doesn't mean they didn't know what God's moral code of law was, it's just that they chose not to obey it. Prophets were sent forth to return their people back onto the path of God - some followed others didn't, but the followers themselves would see the same situations occuring -- the loss of morality once again.

I'm not suggesting that people follow everything the bible puts down as 'moral'. However, they know what is morally good and morally bad, since the bible for Christians defines it fo them. It is up to that individual however, to either obey or disobey, out of an understanding for what the concequences of doing otherwise may be. It's just like the law -- not everyone follows it -- but if you don't you could be given penalty.

[QUOTE="Morphic"]You don't need to abook to tell you whats right or wrong. You can feel whats right or wrong. It's as simple as that. Are you saying before people found religion they were bad? And I hate to be a downer on religion, but do you honestly know anyone who follows every single good and bad thing thats put forth in the bible?rimnet00

Lots of serial killers feel good when they murder.

i think basic morality is ingrained in every human at the instinctual level.. its a shame that religious folks seem to have a stranggle-hold on the morality issue.. i guess they are running out of things to hold onto..

[QUOTE="rowzzr"]you dont kill, you dont harm others, etc. i think that's the general morality for anyone with a sane mind, with or without religion. so what's your point, tc?CptJSparrow

it's normal for anyone to wish for so. "wish" means you think/hope/desire for it - the way you said it, no actions involved. nothing wrong, then. i said in my post, "you don't kill, you don't harm others, etc." wishing for it, doesn't necessarily say you're doing them any harm, ;), as it seems like you'd be too afraid to do so since you can only wish for it. :) but then again, if you think you're insane then you must be.

I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of.rimnet00

Are you telling me your belief in God is the only thing stopping you from becoming a thieving, mass-murdering rapist?

I only read the first page and this page but from what I've read it seems instead of answering his question....everyone got defensive. Ok...you're not religious and you have morals. Fine...but why can't you explain them?

As for those stating family etc....well long ago religion probably paid a part in establishing that morality. Once learned it was passed down even if the religion was not.

Defining yourself as good is not the answer. Good is subjective and a purely selfish person may make immoral choices because he deludes himself that he is good.

With that said.....I'm not in any way stating that I think atheists are not moral people.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="rowzzr"]you dont kill, you dont harm others, etc. i think that's the general morality for anyone with a sane mind, with or without religion. so what's your point, tc?rowzzr

it's normal for anyone to wish for so. "wish" means you think/hope/desire for it - the way you said it, no actions involved. nothing wrong, then. i said in my post, "you don't kill, you don't harm others, etc." wishing for it, doesn't necessarily say you're doing them any harm, ;), as it seems like you'd be too afraid to do so since you can only wish for it. :) but then again, if you think you're insane then you must be.

I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of.rimnet00

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of.DrSponge

[QUOTE="DrSponge"]

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of.CptJSparrow

Ugh, it's people like you that make me want to curl up and die...

"I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of." It's just ignorance.

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"][QUOTE="DrSponge"]

[QUOTE="rimnet00"]I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of.DrSponge

Ugh, it's people like you that make me want to curl up and die...

"I just don't understand what Atheists base their morals off of." It's just ignorance.

Alright, I have a few things I want to say here.

#1: What do I base my morals off of? This is an almost impossible question to answer. Everything is relative. I don't think there is any one formula that you can base "morals" off of, because there will always be an acception to the rule; you can twist up some sort of weird circumstance to prevent the rule from applying.

#2: Why is it that most (not all) Christians seem to believe that their "laws" (10 commandments and what not) are exclusively theirs and were founded by them. Thou shalt not kill... I mean, obviously this idea had to have existed before Moses proclaimed it. And also, aren't the 10 Commandments supposed to be like the ultimate laws? Because some of them seem to be discarded because they don't apply to our society or something along those lines... Does anyone actually NOT work on the Sabbath at one point or another? Having laws that aren't applicable hurt the credibility of the Commandments as a whole.

#3: I think there's a common misconception about Atheists. The term literally means you don't believe in God or a higher power, the opposite of a Theist. All Atheists are not bound together in one common belief; we believe in whatever each one of us wants to, there is no set scripture or code for Atheists to follow. One Atheist being compared to another is the same thing as comparing a Christian to a Hindu, Hindu to a Muslim, or whatever other Theist religions there are. So basically, I guess I'm coming back to my thought that everything is relative. No one has said that Atheists are all the same explicitly, but I get the feeling from reading some posts that some of you tend to think about it like they do.

And he wants us to cure his ingorance of the subject. What is so loathsome about that?CptJSparrow

The answer to his question is blatently obvious...

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] And he wants us to cure his ingorance of the subject. What is so loathsome about that?DrSponge

The answer to his question is blatently obvious...

[QUOTE="DrSponge"]

[QUOTE="CptJSparrow"] And he wants us to cure his ingorance of the subject. What is so loathsome about that?CptJSparrow

The answer to his question is blatently obvious...

Well yeah, but by now he should know that morality isn't based on religion.