This question simulates the existence of a God, and for the relevance of this question you have to believe in your mind that God does exist to be able to answer this question accordingly. Otherwise, it just becomes another God-does-not-exist thread.
[QUOTE="DrummerJon"]how to forgive (assuming hell exists)hobbez
Hm.. I think He would know how to forgive, whether He chooses to or otherwise is beyond what this thread is asking.
if he knew how to why would he ever not? forgiving feels pretty nice. oh that tricky god.
what about how not to know anything? idk its like someone saying "I have an immortal dog, how can you kill it?" the popular deffinition of god doesn't allow him not to know something. since theres no logical way to prove or disprove anything its really a argument of opinions with no answer that will satisfy anyone.
[QUOTE="hobbez"]Otherwise, it just becomes another God-does-not-exist thread.TERMINAT0R1
That's what happens when you bring up the topic of God in front of intelligent, rational people.
Intelligent, rational people or even atheists should be able to attempt to answer a question about God without devolving it into a discussion of whether God exists or not.
[QUOTE="DrummerJon"][QUOTE="Beaman"][QUOTE="DrummerJon"]how to forgive (assuming hell exists)DrummerJon
:| God is constantly forgiving the sins of man.why does hell exist?
Hell is for those who choose not to believe in him..
He can't forgive them for using reason? I think the ones who need forgivness the most are the ones who dont ask for it
People have different reasons to not believe, being rational is not the only reason why they don't (though many would argue this is why they don't). Also you don't have to not believe to go to hell, I'm sure there's plenty of reasons that would land you straight to hell.
[QUOTE="DrummerJon"]He can't forgive them for using reason? I think the ones who need forgivness the most are the ones who dont ask for it MoldOnHold
Well what about the people who constantly live in fear of him? They are the ones who ask the most often, They know when they do something he doesn't like and will probably try to make up for it. Keep in mind and ideal diety would just forgive everyone for everything because we are stupid mortals, I just think the ones who are unaware of their wrong doings need the forgivness because...well they arn't trying to even make up for it, he has the least reason to forive them. There ARE still reasons to forgive them, and a truely perfect god would.
different reasons to not believe, being rational is not the only reason why they don't (though many would argue this is why they don't). Also you don't have to not believe to go to hell, I'm sure there's plenty of reasons that would land you straight to hell.
hobbez
doesnt the christian god see us as children? we know very little, we dont live very long, we are created with unconditional love and he trys to take care of us. If a child is confused and kills a man (or is brainwashed and does so) wont god see us as silly little todlers making mistakes with the right intentions? We are born innocent, the world makes us do 'bad" things, can't god see that and just show us why were were wrong and things be cool?
if a kid touches a stove you sit them down and explain why you cant do that, then you send them off for dinner, not make them lay in the oven for an eternity.
[QUOTE="MoldOnHold"][QUOTE="DrummerJon"]He can't forgive them for using reason? I think the ones who need forgivness the most are the ones who dont ask for it DrummerJon
Well what about the people who constantly live in fear of him? They are the ones who ask the most often, They know when they do something he doesn't like and will probably try to make up for it. Keep in mind and ideal diety would just forgive everyone for everything because we are stupid mortals, I just think the ones who are unaware of their wrong doings need the forgivness because...well they arn't trying to even make up for it, he has the least reason to forive them. There ARE still reasons to forgive them, and a truely perfect god would.
but what do I know I'm just a heretic
I'm afraid I'm not following here.
Those who have the least reason to be forgived should be forgiven more? They may be unaware of their wrong-doing, but what if they do not believe in him? They can do wrong, and they will not care of the consequences.
[QUOTE="MoldOnHold"][QUOTE="DrummerJon"]He can't forgive them for using reason? I think the ones who need forgivness the most are the ones who dont ask for it DrummerJon
Well what about the people who constantly live in fear of him? They are the ones who ask the most often, They know when they do something he doesn't like and will probably try to make up for it. Keep in mind and ideal diety would just forgive everyone for everything because we are stupid mortals, I just think the ones who are unaware of their wrong doings need the forgivness because...well they arn't trying to even make up for it, he has the least reason to forive them. There ARE still reasons to forgive them, and a truely perfect god would.
but what do I know I'm just a heretic
That would be great God forgiving everyone and forgetting all their sins, however God doesn't work like that. That may be your ideal God but that's not the conceptualized God of people of faith. You mention perfect God, by definition He is already generally considered omnipotent, omnicient, omnibenevolent, etc.. and therefore perfect. You already admitted that we are stupid mortals, that is what we have to work on to ideally go to heaven.
However, this isn't asking about God's ability to forgive or heaven or hell though.. I think we've gone off topic for too long..
Those who have the least reason to be forgived should be forgiven more? They may be unaware of their wrong-doing, but what if they do not believe in him? They can do wrong, and they will not care of the consequences. MoldOnHold
they NEED it more, because they arn't doing anything about their bad deeds, perhapse feel guilt but wont go to confession for example. I don't understand why being an atheist or worshiping another god is such a nono in the eyes of a loving forgiving understanding god.
My point is the followers are getting the forgivness, and the non-believers are not, thus the non-believers need it. They all should get it but hey maybe god likes torturing the "delusional'. I think if christianity were somehow generally correct about god, he would see atheists, muslims,etc as delusional rather than evil. Like when I see christians (not to be mean, but to be honest) I see a group of delusional people, I don't hate anyone for their religious beliefes I try to just forgive them if they say i'm evil or if they try to get non-science into a science ****such as biology. I would think god would have my attitude towards the deluded and just be like "eh you don't know better, I'll make you understand what you did wrong and let you be happy for an eternity'
at least I like to think that because god would be the man if he had that attitude.
everyone and forgetting all their sins, however God doesn't work like that. That may be your ideal God but that's not the conceptualized God of people of faith. You mention perfect God, by definition He is already generally considered omnipotent, omnicient, omnibenevolent, etc.. and therefore perfect. You already admitted that we are stupid mortals, that is what we have to work on to ideally go to heaven.
However, this isn't asking about God's ability to forgive or heaven or hell though.. I think we've gone off topic for too long..
hobbez
I agree we are very off topic, but my final point will be that a god who doesn't forgive everything like i mentioned is not a god worth my faith (love,whatever it is god made us for) so I'll walk into hell with no regrets. At least Satan made us more godlike with the tree of knowledge :)
everyone and forgetting all their sins, however God doesn't work like that. That may be your ideal God but that's not the conceptualized God of people of faith. You mention perfect God, by definition He is already generally considered omnipotent, omnicient, omnibenevolent, etc.. and therefore perfect. You already admitted that we are stupid mortals, that is what we have to work on to ideally go to heaven.
However, this isn't asking about God's ability to forgive or heaven or hell though.. I think we've gone off topic for too long..
DrummerJon
I agree we are very off topic, but my final point will be that a god who doesn't forgive everything like i mentioned is not a god worth my faith (love,whatever it is god made us for) so I'll walk into hell with no regrets. At least Satan made us more godlike with the tree of knowledge :)
(This is from a Christian's point of view not necessarily mine) He does forgive anyone who chooses to convert from their wrong doings but they must do so whole heartedly. Those who don't believe choose not to and are therefore *punished* (I use this word loosely) in hell. You have to abide by the rules to get ito heaven, if you don't then you go to hell to put it simply.
everyone and forgetting all their sins, however God doesn't work like that. That may be your ideal God but that's not the conceptualized God of people of faith. You mention perfect God, by definition He is already generally considered omnipotent, omnicient, omnibenevolent, etc.. and therefore perfect. You already admitted that we are stupid mortals, that is what we have to work on to ideally go to heaven.
However, this isn't asking about God's ability to forgive or heaven or hell though.. I think we've gone off topic for too long..
hobbez
I agree we are very off topic, but my final point will be that a god who doesn't forgive everything like i mentioned is not a god worth my faith (love,whatever it is god made us for) so I'll walk into hell with no regrets. At least Satan made us more godlike with the tree of knowledge :)
(This is from a Christian's point of view not necessarily mine) He does forgive anyone who chooses to convert from their wrong doings but they must do so whole heartedly. Those who don't believe choose not to and are therefore *punished* (I use this word loosely) in hell. You have to abide by the rules to get ito heaven, if you don't then you go to hell to put it simply.
I know, its just that system blows necause hell is an infinite punishment for very finite sins. Hell is just a tool the church uses for power money and political gain. (at least in the old days with the de'medicis). oh well. but back to your point, the christian god knows everything even what its like to not know anything cause hes like superman.
I think he cannot completely know how we ract under different circumstances because of the free will that he gave us. if he knew ever move we'd make then that wouldn't completely be free will now would it?
I think he cannot completely know how we ract under different circumstances because of the free will that he gave us. if he knew ever move we'd make then that wouldn't completely be free will now would it?princess1087
By you logic, there is no planned future therefore there are no facts about the future that can be known.
God cannot know if you will choose him or not. If he did he would of already known you would or wouldn't of choosen him before he gave you freewiill therefore condemning you to heaven or hell before you even existed.
God can't know anything at all. How could something imaginary have any knowledge at all? That'd be like my invisible friend being a genius, its just not going to happen.
Log in to comment