Canadian Election Results: another Conservative Minority

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clicketyclick

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#1 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

It looks like the comments on the Youth Act and the arts funding cost the Conservatives their gains in Quebec, and as a result, a majority government fell outside their grasp.

Interesting to note that vote splitting went both ways; Liberals were the only party to lose seats, I believe, and both Conservatives and the NDP made nice gains thanks to those former Liberal voters.

And for inexplicable reasons, the Bloc Québécois appears to still be a federal party, and with more seats than the NDP.

Out of all the parties, the NDP seems to have made the most of this election.

Did you vote? What do you think of the results?

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Tylendal

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#2 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts

I was sort of hoping the green party would get some seats this year. It was my first time voting.

Also, I forgot about the Bloc de Quebecois. Why weren't they on my ballot? :P

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Severed_Hand

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#3 Severed_Hand
Member since 2007 • 3402 Posts
I voted for the first time today!! and i figured the Tories would have another minority. Dion really struck a chord with liberal voters... might give the Green Party a seat.
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Marksman2200

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#4 Marksman2200
Member since 2007 • 23037 Posts
I wished NDP got more seats. I would have voted for them, but I'm still 17.
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BuryMe

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#5 BuryMe
Member since 2004 • 22017 Posts

Although I'm a staunch NDP supporter, i voted liberal for strategic reasons (not that it made any difference any way, i still hate my conservative MP)

At least it's only a minority. Looks like we'll be back at the polls in a few months, lol

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carrot-cake

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#6 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts
Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.
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Marksman2200

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#7 Marksman2200
Member since 2007 • 23037 Posts
Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.carrot-cake
It makes those in Quebec feel special, and makes them think they have power.
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Tylendal

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#8 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts

It made me angry to the point of swearing, watching some of the commercials on the T.V. That's another reason I voted Green. They're the only party I saw that advertised their own merits, instead of trying to denounce the opposition. Sure, you can find out about the parties if you research them, but if you just wait for the information to come to you, all you see is people hurling childish insults at each-other.

BTW, I live in BC, so I like the idea of our third largest export being taxed. Being illegal clearly isn't stopping anything. :P

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clicketyclick

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#9 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

I voted for the first time today!! and i figured the Tories would have another minority. Dion really struck a chord with liberal voters... might give the Green Party a seat.Severed_Hand

Ya, a strident, augmented 7th chord :P

Looks like we'll be back at the polls in a few months, lol
BuryMe

I doubt it. If the Liberals and NDP were responsible for a vote of non-confidence, knocking down the Conservative Party, I think the next election would be a majority for the Conservatives. After all, voters are tired of elections and of the cost of them and the Liberals are not ready with their new leader.

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BuryMe

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#10 BuryMe
Member since 2004 • 22017 Posts
Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.carrot-cake
Obviously they will never get a mahority government, they only run in PQ. But tha doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. There's even more parties that only run in a few ridings, and they never get any one elected.
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helium_flash

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#11 helium_flash
Member since 2007 • 9244 Posts
If this were the American election, everyone on this board would be either pissed off or really happy. There would be chaos from both sides.
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Franko_3

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#12 Franko_3
Member since 2003 • 5729 Posts
Dion was so pathetic that I am not even surprised about the poor result everywhere for him. (thanksfully?) The conservator lost their majority when the people got scared about them in the last 2 weeks in Quebec, so the Bloc Quebecois result are much more because of the poor conservator strategy
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Tylendal

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#13 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts

Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.carrot-cake

I remember seeing a list of "You know you're in Quebec when." Included on the list was. "When the government gives YOU money."

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BuryMe

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#14 BuryMe
Member since 2004 • 22017 Posts
[QUOTE="BuryMe"]Looks like we'll be back at the polls in a few months, lol
clicketyclick
I doubt it. If the Liberals and NDP were responsible for a vote of non-confidence, knocking down the Conservative Party, I think the next election would be a majority for the Conservatives. After all, voters are tired of elections and of the cost of them and the Liberals are not ready with their new leader.

I know. But I don't think an election is too far away, possibly with 2 new party leaders
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carrot-cake

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#15 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts
[QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.BuryMe
Obviously they will never get a mahority government, they only run in PQ. But tha doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. There's even more parties that only run in a few ridings, and they never get any one elected.


That is true, but at least what the independents aim for is not the liberation of Quebec, which is impossible. They campaign for more realistic things, such as improving the economy, etc.
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clicketyclick

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#16 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

That's another reason I voted Green. They're the only party I saw that advertised their own merits, instead of trying to denounce the opposition.
Tylendal

That's because they knew there was no point to it; they'd be fringe anyway and just a protest vote (no offense to you.)

[QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.Marksman2200
It makes those in Quebec feel special, and makes them think they have power.

The thing is the Quebec does have power. A lot of power. Far more than they deserve, when you take them in proportion to the rest of the country. For just one example, 3 out of the 9 Supreme Court Judges MUST be from Quebec. They are over-represented in the highest court of Canada, and this leaves other provinces and territories entirely unrepresented. And look at this election, how Quebec alone determines a majority or a minority government despite Ontario being the true battleground.

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Marksman2200

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#17 Marksman2200
Member since 2007 • 23037 Posts

[QUOTE="Marksman2200"][QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.clicketyclick

It makes those in Quebec feel special, and makes them think they have power.

The thing is the Quebec does have power. A lot of power. Far more than they deserve, when you take them in proportion to the rest of the country. For just one example, 3 out of the 9 Supreme Court Judges MUST be from Quebec. They are over-represented in the highest court of Canada, and this leaves other provinces and territories entirely unrepresented. And look at this election, how Quebec alone determines a majority or a minority government despite Ontario being the true battleground.

That is true, I'm kinda at odds with Quebec with a deal it made with Newfoundland ages ago.
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Tylendal

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#18 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]That's another reason I voted Green. They're the only party I saw that advertised their own merits, instead of trying to denounce the opposition.
clicketyclick

That's because they knew there was no point to it; they'd be fringe anyway and just a protest vote (no offense to you.)

Actually, I disagree. Marxist Lenisist are a protest vote. The Rhinocerous party (when they were still around) was a protest vote. Often, independants are a wasted vote. The Green party is definately gaining in popularity. I see it around my school with many of the younger voters.

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clicketyclick

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#19 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

Dion was so pathetic that I am not even surprised about the poor result everywhere for him. (thanksfully?) The conservator lost their majority when the people got scared about them in the last 2 weeks in Quebec, so the Bloc Quebecois result are much more because of the poor conservator strategyFranko_3

The Bloc lost support in Quebec. The support went to the Liberals.

[QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.BuryMe
Obviously they will never get a mahority government, they only run in PQ. But tha doesn't mean they shouldn't exist. There's even more parties that only run in a few ridings, and they never get any one elected.

They are the only Federal party with an outright single-province agenda. They don't give a damn about the rest of Canada. If you're the Quebec Party, then you should be a Provincial party, seeing as Quebec is a province.

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lobodob

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#20 lobodob
Member since 2004 • 2584 Posts
Did anyone else notice that student vote thing? Apparently the Green Party had 44 seats in their vote! Not that it counted or anything:P
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carrot-cake

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#21 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts

[QUOTE="Marksman2200"][QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.clicketyclick

It makes those in Quebec feel special, and makes them think they have power.

The thing is the Quebec does have power. A lot of power. Far more than they deserve, when you take them in proportion to the rest of the country. For just one example, 3 out of the 9 Supreme Court Judges MUST be from Quebec. They are over-represented in the highest court of Canada, and this leaves other provinces and territories entirely unrepresented. And look at this election, how Quebec alone determines a majority or a minority government despite Ontario being the true battleground.


Quebec does have too much power, but thats because they whined and complained and the government just gave them power to shut them up. Honestly, I really dont care if they become a different country. I say, we let them, but force them to have their own currency, passport, everything. Also, they cant fly over Canadian airspace. Then we see how long it would take them to come crawling back. I think they should have more ridings in the prairie provinces so they arent neglected as much as they are.
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allnamestaken

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#22 allnamestaken
Member since 2003 • 6618 Posts
I think what we really need to be discussing is election reform. The idea that a party getting around 5 percent of the total country wide vote, should recieve around 50 seats is rediculous. Our riding system needs to be changed.
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gameeer1

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#23 gameeer1
Member since 2006 • 16425 Posts

Can't say it is surprising, though Harper's comments towards art and culture hurt his chances a bit, but Conservatives have increased their seat amount.

And the Greens are pathetic. There are independents in Parliamnet yet not one Green MP.:lol:

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Franko_3

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#24 Franko_3
Member since 2003 • 5729 Posts
[QUOTE="clicketyclick"]

[QUOTE="Marksman2200"][QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.carrot-cake

It makes those in Quebec feel special, and makes them think they have power.

The thing is the Quebec does have power. A lot of power. Far more than they deserve, when you take them in proportion to the rest of the country. For just one example, 3 out of the 9 Supreme Court Judges MUST be from Quebec. They are over-represented in the highest court of Canada, and this leaves other provinces and territories entirely unrepresented. And look at this election, how Quebec alone determines a majority or a minority government despite Ontario being the true battleground.


Quebec does have too much power, but thats because they whined and complained and the government just gave them power to shut them up. Honestly, I really dont care if they become a different country. I say, we let them, but force them to have their own currency, passport, everything. Also, they cant fly over Canadian airspace. Then we see how long it would take them to come crawling back. I think they should have more ridings in the prairie provinces so they arent neglected as much as they are.

This is illegal... If yous still do that and accept to face internationnal problem, Quebec can block the atlantic provinces and the Ontario importation via the Saint Lawrence River and you don't want that to happen...

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clicketyclick

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#25 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts
[QUOTE="clicketyclick"]

[QUOTE="Tylendal"]That's another reason I voted Green. They're the only party I saw that advertised their own merits, instead of trying to denounce the opposition.
Tylendal

That's because they knew there was no point to it; they'd be fringe anyway and just a protest vote (no offense to you.)

Actually, I disagree. Marxist Lenisist are a protest vote. The Rhinocerous party (when they were still around) was a protest vote. Often, independants are a wasted vote. The Green party is definately gaining in popularity. I see it around my school with many of the younger voters.

"Younger voters" is something of an oxymoron; if they're below 25, they usually don't vote. :P

I was watching the results come in and they said that the NDP in Quebec was just a protest vote because they would win a seats in the by-election and then lose them the next time through; they had no stability.

I really don't see the Green party making gains, regardless of whether their gaining popularity at your school.

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gameeer1

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#26 gameeer1
Member since 2006 • 16425 Posts

Did anyone else notice that student vote thing? Apparently the Green Party had 44 seats in their vote! Not that it counted or anything:Plobodob

And frankly, it would be stupid for it to be counted.

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bogaty

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#27 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts

How could anyone support the Green Party? They basically denied 49% of the population of the chance to participate in their party by declaring that only female candidates would be allowed to run in certain ridings. This despite the fact that equality is assured as a legal right under the Charter. It's exclusionary, it's anti-democratic, and is reeks of elitism and social engineering.

Why not let the people decide for themselves who is the best candidate via a democratic process? If you think that women are under-represented, then advocate your viewpoint in the field of public discourse. If your ideas are good and your argument persuasive, people will come around.

I'm glad the Greens have recieved no seats thus far. I would have liked to have seen the NDP do better, and would really have liked to have seen the Conservatives loose, but a minority is better than a majority in any case.

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diped

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#28 diped
Member since 2008 • 2005 Posts
I voted for the first time today, I voted conservative. Going into a time of potential economic crisis is not a good oppotunity to enorce the liberals "green" plan, or the NDP/Green parties envriomental plans. It would cost businesses too much money, and would just make more jobs be outsourced to other places and lose jobs here in canada.
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carrot-cake

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#29 carrot-cake
Member since 2008 • 6880 Posts
[QUOTE="carrot-cake"][QUOTE="clicketyclick"]

[QUOTE="Marksman2200"][QUOTE="carrot-cake"]Why does the bloc quebecois exist? Honestly, they are a waste of seats. They will never get a majority government, and they will never gain support to part quebec. Honestly, they should disappear.Franko_3

It makes those in Quebec feel special, and makes them think they have power.

The thing is the Quebec does have power. A lot of power. Far more than they deserve, when you take them in proportion to the rest of the country. For just one example, 3 out of the 9 Supreme Court Judges MUST be from Quebec. They are over-represented in the highest court of Canada, and this leaves other provinces and territories entirely unrepresented. And look at this election, how Quebec alone determines a majority or a minority government despite Ontario being the true battleground.


Quebec does have too much power, but thats because they whined and complained and the government just gave them power to shut them up. Honestly, I really dont care if they become a different country. I say, we let them, but force them to have their own currency, passport, everything. Also, they cant fly over Canadian airspace. Then we see how long it would take them to come crawling back. I think they should have more ridings in the prairie provinces so they arent neglected as much as they are.

This is illegal... If yous still do that and accept to face internationnal problem, Quebec can block the atlantic provinces and the Ontario importation via the Saint Lawrence River and you don't want that to happen...


How is that illegal?
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clicketyclick

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#30 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

I think what we really need to be discussing is election reform. The idea that a party getting around 5 percent of the total country wide vote, should recieve around 50 seats is rediculous. Our riding system needs to be changed.allnamestaken

That's a good point. I have a lot more resentment for the PQ than their over-representation. They went from being a party filled with terrorists to a party filled with thugs committing voting fraud and intimidation. Now they've improved to the point that they're just a party filled with strident nationalists and nincompoops.

Is our system really that much better than the electoral college system?

Can't say it is surprising, though Harper's comments towards art and culture hurt his chances a bit, but Conservatives have increased their seat amount.

gameeer1

I kind of agree with Harper on that. And I thought the "death by a thousand cold cuts" was hilarious.

I also find your avatar hilarious. :D

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#31 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts

I voted for the first time today, I voted conservative. Going into a time of potential economic crisis is not a good oppotunity to enorce the liberals "green" plan, or the NDP/Green parties envriomental plans. It would cost businesses too much money, and would just make more jobs be outsourced to other places and lose jobs here in canada.diped

I don't want to turn this into a slag-fest, but you really should look into just how much the average wage has sunk in Canada and how many high paying jobs we've lost under the "Free-trade" system that the conservatives support. It's basically a race to the bottom when capital and goods are allowed to move freely, but labour isn't. Unless you're in the top 15% of wage earners in Canada, you'vee done worse under the Conservatives in the past and will continue to do worse in the future.

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gameeer1

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#32 gameeer1
Member since 2006 • 16425 Posts

[QUOTE="allnamestaken"]I think what we really need to be discussing is election reform. The idea that a party getting around 5 percent of the total country wide vote, should recieve around 50 seats is rediculous. Our riding system needs to be changed.clicketyclick

That's a good point. I have a lot more resentment for the PQ than their over-representation. They went from being a party filled with terrorists to a party filled with thugs committing voting fraud and intimidation. Now they've improved to the point that they're just a party filled with strident nationalists and nincompoops.

Is our system really that much better than the electoral system?

Can't say it is surprising, though Harper's comments towards art and culture hurt his chances a bit, but Conservatives have increased their seat amount.

gameeer1

I kind of agree with Harper on that. And I thought the "death by a thousand cold cuts" was hilarious.

I also find your avatar hilarious. :D

It's one thing i do not agree with him on, but I guess the cuts were needed.

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bogaty

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#33 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts

It's the one thing I did agree with him on. The federal government shouldn't be funding arts programs. They really only benefit a small number of people in major urban centres like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. Why should rural people have their taxes going to support arts programs that are never going to benefit them in the slightest?

Arts should be funded at the municipal level or through private enterprise/private donations, I think.

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clicketyclick

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#34 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

[QUOTE="diped"]I voted for the first time today, I voted conservative. Going into a time of potential economic crisis is not a good oppotunity to enorce the liberals "green" plan, or the NDP/Green parties envriomental plans. It would cost businesses too much money, and would just make more jobs be outsourced to other places and lose jobs here in canada.bogaty

I don't want to turn this into a slag-fest, but you really should look into just how much the average wage has sunk in Canada and how many high paying jobs we've lost under the "Free-trade" system that the conservatives support. It's basically a race to the bottom when capital and goods are allowed to move freely, but labour isn't. Unless you're in the top 15% of wage earners in Canada, you'vee done worse under the Conservatives in the past and will continue to do worse in the future.

I'd be careful about making causative claims in this economic climate.

And it was my understanding, at least from what liberals have said, that it's the lower-paying jobs that are outsourced. What do you mean we've lost high-paying jobs when labour isn't allowed to move freely?

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GabuEx

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#35 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

I was sort of hoping the green party would get some seats this year.

Tylendal

Told ya. :P

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gameeer1

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#36 gameeer1
Member since 2006 • 16425 Posts
[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

I was sort of hoping the green party would get some seats this year.

GabuEx

Told ya. :P

Yes, you actually did.:P

I thought for sure they would get some seats... But, no, they still suck too much.:lol:

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Tylendal

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#37 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts
[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

I was sort of hoping the green party would get some seats this year.

GabuEx

Told ya. :P

Huh? What are you talking about?

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gameeer1

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#38 gameeer1
Member since 2006 • 16425 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]

I was sort of hoping the green party would get some seats this year.

Tylendal

Told ya. :P

Huh? What are you talking about?

You need to see the last thread. I'll try and dig it up for you.

EDIT: I dug it up for you.

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GabuEx

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#39 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

Huh? What are you talking about?

Tylendal

Oops, sorry, in another thread I was arguing with someone else that the Greens wouldn't get a seat, but in looking at it, that was with someone else.

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gameeer1

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#40 gameeer1
Member since 2006 • 16425 Posts
[QUOTE="Tylendal"]

Huh? What are you talking about?

GabuEx

Oops, sorry, in another thread I was arguing with someone else that the Greens wouldn't get a seat, but in looking at it, that was with someone else.

Twas with me...:P

Again, I thought they would, seeing all the lawn signs with grren on them, but whatever, I don't even like the Greens anyways.:P

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#41 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts
[QUOTE="bogaty"]

I don't want to turn this into a slag-fest, but you really should look into just how much the average wage has sunk in Canada and how many high paying jobs we've lost under the "Free-trade" system that the conservatives support. It's basically a race to the bottom when capital and goods are allowed to move freely, but labour isn't. Unless you're in the top 15% of wage earners in Canada, you'vee done worse under the Conservatives in the past and will continue to do worse in the future.

clicketyclick

I'd be careful about making causative claims in this economic climate.

And it was my understanding, at least from what liberals have said, that it's the lower-paying jobs that are outsourced. What do you mean we've lost high-paying jobs when labour isn't allowed to move freely?

For example, union jobs in fields like automobile manufacturing in Ontario, metal smelting in BC and Ontario, are disappearing from Canada because it's much less expensive for a multinational to relocate resource processing and manufacturing to 3rd world countries where labour laws, environmental standards, and safety standards are lax or non-existent.

Under our old tariff based system, if it cost us $10 to produce say, a boot in Canada, we'd say to a company "sure you can relocate your plant to Vietnam where it costs you $2 to make the boot, but we're going to charge you an $8 tariff should you try to bring that boot into Canada."

Under free trade, that protection is gone and now the Canadian worker has to compete on the world market against countries where the costs of living are much lower. It's a race to the bottom. Sure, we might have cheaper goods under the free market system, but what good does it do us if fewer people can afford to buy them? Lower wages in Canada means less tax revenue for the gov't, which means cuts to our commons, our social safety net, and our infrastructure. It also means a rise in social problems like property crime, drug use, alcohol abuse, domestic violence, etc.

Also, it's not true that low paying jobs are the ones lost. Take a look at the Sept job reports. 90% of the new jobs created were part time jobs in the service industry. Minimum wage work with no benefits. At the same time 35,000 full time manufacturing and forestry sector jobs were lost.

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Tylendal

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#42 Tylendal
Member since 2006 • 14681 Posts
[QUOTE="GabuEx"][QUOTE="Tylendal"]

Huh? What are you talking about?

gameeer1

Oops, sorry, in another thread I was arguing with someone else that the Greens wouldn't get a seat, but in looking at it, that was with someone else.

Twas with me...:P

Again, I thought they would, seeing all the lawn signs with grren on them, but whatever, I don't even like the Greens anyways.:P

The Canadian system is seriously flawed. I mean, the Green party got 1/3 the votes that the NDP did, yet while the NDP had 34 seats, the Greens had none. Or what about the Quebecois? They got only half the votes of the NDP, and only 50% more than Green, yet they have over half as many seats as the NDP.

What we need to do is choose the amount of candidates, then divy up said candidates by the number of votes in each riding.

EG: 37.4% of Canadians voted Conservative this year. 26.9%Liberal, 18% NDP, 9.9% Quebecois, and 6.6% Green and 1.2% other. For simplicities sake we'll pretend that there are 100 ridings.

So. We'd have 37 Conservative, 27 Liberal, 18 NDP, 10 Quebecois, and 7 Green. Then, go through the ridings and say "Okay, this riding was 99% in favour of this party, give them the representative they voted for." Then go down the list, giving the most fanatical ridings who they voted for, giving them their second, third, etc... choices when you run out of candidates elected by the overall percentages.

True, its' flawed, but no more so than what we've already got, and it certainly is much more fair or a federal level.

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clicketyclick

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#43 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

Twas with me...:P

Again, I thought they would, seeing all the lawn signs with grren on them, but whatever, I don't even like the Greens anyways.:P

gameeer1

Because Green supporters are students and students don't vote. :P

For example, union jobs in fields like automobile manufacturing in Ontario, metal smelting in BC and Ontario, are disappearing from Canada because it's much less expensive for a multinational to relocate resource processing and manufacturing to 3rd world countries where labour laws, environmental standards, and safety standards are lax or non-existent.

Under our old tariff based system, if it cost us $10 to produce say, a boot in Canada, we'd say to a company "sure you can relocate your plant to Vietnam where it costs you $2 to make the boot, but we're going to charge you an $8 tariff should you try to bring that boot into Canada."

Under free trade, that protection is gone and now the Canadian worker has to compete on the world market against countries where the costs of living are much lower. It's a race to the bottom. Sure, we might have cheaper goods under the free market system, but what good does it do us if fewer people can afford to buy them? Lower wages in Canada means less tax revenue for the gov't, which means cuts to our commons, our social safety net, and our infrastructure. It also means a rise in social problems like property crime, drug use, alcohol abuse, domestic violence, etc.

Also, it's not true that low paying jobs are the ones lost. Take a look at the Sept job reports. 90% of the new jobs created were part time jobs in the service industry. Minimum wage work with no benefits. At the same time 35,000 full time manufacturing and forestry sector jobs were lost.

bogaty

Ah, I didn't know you meant manufacturing, forestry, and other low-skilled labour as "high-paying jobs". I thought you were talking about doctors, lawyers, etc. It still doesn't make quite sense under your claim that labour isn't allowed to move freely though.

I think you're reaching when you draw a causative link between free trade and social problems like substance and spousal abuse. With just as much evidence as you have, I could claim that free trade has caused to decrease in violent crime. And it's my understanding that spousal abuse has decreased anyway.

There are very strong reasons why tariffs are a bad idea, and at the base of it is that it creates a false economy, artificially propping up local producers - and at some point this is bound to collapse. It also reduces freedom of choice for consumers and reduces competition in the marketplace. It's generally agreed upon by economists that tariffs negatively impact the economy.

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bogaty

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#44 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts

I think we should have run-off voting, but unfortunately, it goes against the rules of parliament. In 1976, that idiot Trudeau put into law the "Grandfather clause" which says that, regardless of future population changes, the provinces will never have less seats than they did in 1976. He put this clause in as a sop to Quebec due to the fact that the FLQ crisis had driven out vast numbers of English speaking Quebecers who moved to Ontario or out west.

If we acutally used the rep by pop numbers, there would be 278 seats, not 308. True rep by pop number on the left/number of seats they have now on the right

BC: 36/36

Alb: 28/28

Sask: 9/14

Man: 10/14

Ont: 106/106

Que: 68/75

NB: 7/10

NS: 8/11

PEI: 1/4

Nfld: 5/7

YT: 0/1

NWT: 0/1

Nun: 0/1

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freshgman

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#45 freshgman
Member since 2005 • 12241 Posts
i was pissed at that. not again!
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GabuEx

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#46 GabuEx
Member since 2006 • 36552 Posts

What we need to do is choose the amount of candidates, then divy up said candidates by the number of votes in each riding.

EG: 37.4% of Canadians voted Conservative this year. 26.9%Liberal, 18% NDP, 9.9% Quebecois, and 6.6% Green and 1.2% other. For simplicities sake we'll pretend that there are 100 ridings.

So. We'd have 37 Conservative, 27 Liberal, 18 NDP, 10 Quebecois, and 7 Green. Then, go through the ridings and say "Okay, this riding was 99% in favour of this party, give them the representative they voted for." Then go down the list, giving the most fanatical ridings who they voted for, giving them their second, third, etc... choices when you run out of candidates elected by the overall percentages.

True, its' flawed, but no more so than what we've already got, and it certainly is much more fair or a federal level.

Tylendal

The biggest problem with that idea is that it effectively punishes people for having competitive ridings and severs all links between those people and the government. While I think that our current system is flawed, I think there needs to be a fundamental link between the people and the government that they elect, and that link would get very tenuous if the only real link was country-wide percentages as opposed to a representative duly elected by the people in that riding.

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Virus214

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#47 Virus214
Member since 2007 • 2052 Posts

I was hopin for Harper to stay in.... everyone else was talkin about " giving natives more money to help them " we give them money, and they waste it... and everythin else, harper seemed like the best choice, I am too young to vote, but i keep a close eye on who the candidates are.

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clicketyclick

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#48 clicketyclick
Member since 2008 • 7136 Posts

I think we should have run-off voting, but unfortunately, it goes against the rules of parliament. In 1976, that idiot Trudeau put into law the "Grandfather clause" which says that, regardless of future population changes, the provinces will never have less seats than they did in 1976. He put this clause in as a sop to Quebec due to the fact that the FLQ crisis had driven out vast numbers of English speaking Quebecers who moved to Ontario or out west.

If we acutally used the rep by pop numbers, there would be 278 seats, not 308. True rep by pop number on the left/number of seats they have now on the right

BC: 36/36

Alb: 28/28

Sask: 9/14

Man: 10/14

Ont: 106/106

Que: 68/75

NB: 7/10

NS: 8/11

PEI: 1/4

Nfld: 5/7

YT: 0/1

NWT: 0/1

Nun: 0/1

bogaty

Where are you getting these numbers from and how can the territories have no representatives at all?

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bogaty

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#49 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts
[QUOTE="gameeer1"]

Twas with me...:P

Again, I thought they would, seeing all the lawn signs with grren on them, but whatever, I don't even like the Greens anyways.:P

clicketyclick

Because Green supporters are students and students don't vote. :P

For example, union jobs in fields like automobile manufacturing in Ontario, metal smelting in BC and Ontario, are disappearing from Canada because it's much less expensive for a multinational to relocate resource processing and manufacturing to 3rd world countries where labour laws, environmental standards, and safety standards are lax or non-existent.

Under our old tariff based system, if it cost us $10 to produce say, a boot in Canada, we'd say to a company "sure you can relocate your plant to Vietnam where it costs you $2 to make the boot, but we're going to charge you an $8 tariff should you try to bring that boot into Canada."

Under free trade, that protection is gone and now the Canadian worker has to compete on the world market against countries where the costs of living are much lower. It's a race to the bottom. Sure, we might have cheaper goods under the free market system, but what good does it do us if fewer people can afford to buy them? Lower wages in Canada means less tax revenue for the gov't, which means cuts to our commons, our social safety net, and our infrastructure. It also means a rise in social problems like property crime, drug use, alcohol abuse, domestic violence, etc.

Also, it's not true that low paying jobs are the ones lost. Take a look at the Sept job reports. 90% of the new jobs created were part time jobs in the service industry. Minimum wage work with no benefits. At the same time 35,000 full time manufacturing and forestry sector jobs were lost.

bogaty

Ah, I didn't know you meant manufacturing, forestry, and other low-skilled labour as "high-paying jobs". I thought you were talking about doctors, lawyers, etc. It still doesn't make quite sense under your claim that labour isn't allowed to move freely though.

I think you're reaching when you draw a causative link between free trade and social problems like substance and spousal abuse. With just as much evidence as you have, I could claim that free trade has caused to decrease in violent crime. And it's my understanding that spousal abuse has decreased anyway.

There are very strong reasons why tariffs are a bad idea, and at the base of it is that it creates a false economy, artificially propping up local producers - and at some point this is bound to collapse. It also reduces freedom of choice for consumers and reduces competition in the marketplace. It's generally agreed upon by economists that tariffs negatively impact the economy.

I didn't launch into writing a scholarly essay with all sources cited as this is a gaming forum, but the information is out there regarding causative links between rise in poverty and rise in crime. There are also studies out of the UK and Australia which show crime rates under Conservative gov'ts a much higher than under Liberal ones and this has been the case for 100 years.

As for tariffs, most economists do NOT agree that tariffs are bad. Only the economists who support Milton Friedmann's school of thought do. You know, supply side economics, "free trade/free markets", deregulation, and the whole trickle-down theory.

It's been in practice in the US, The UK, and Canada since the early 80s under Regan, Thatcher, and Mulroney and during that time, the US has gone from being the world's leading creditor to the world's biggest debtor. From being the leading importer of raw materials and exporter of finished goods to being the leading in importing finished goods and exporter of raw materials. The manufacturing base in all three countries has been gutted and most of the economy relies on artifically creating money (fractional reserve banking system) and arbitrage.

As we've recently witnessed, the system doesn't work and the school of thought is rapidly being rejected. I hope to see a return to the Keynesian school of thought. The demand side theory that proved so successful after WWII. Seeing as how Paul Krugman just won the nobel prize for economics, I hope we've reached a turning point.

As for artifically propping up local producers, I don't see what's wrong with that system. It worked very well for us in the past. It works great for Scandinavian countries now (the ones with the highest standards of living in the world) and it seems to have done wonders for China, S. Korea, and Japan in the past. All of these countries saw their economies thrive under a protectionist system. There may be less freedom of choice for the consumer, but I'll take a stable economy with a thriving middle class if it means I have to choose between 5 types of cell phone instead of 20.

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bogaty

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#50 bogaty
Member since 2003 • 4750 Posts
[QUOTE="bogaty"]

I think we should have run-off voting, but unfortunately, it goes against the rules of parliament. In 1976, that idiot Trudeau put into law the "Grandfather clause" which says that, regardless of future population changes, the provinces will never have less seats than they did in 1976. He put this clause in as a sop to Quebec due to the fact that the FLQ crisis had driven out vast numbers of English speaking Quebecers who moved to Ontario or out west.

If we acutally used the rep by pop numbers, there would be 278 seats, not 308. True rep by pop number on the left/number of seats they have now on the right

BC: 36/36

Alb: 28/28

Sask: 9/14

Man: 10/14

Ont: 106/106

Que: 68/75

NB: 7/10

NS: 8/11

PEI: 1/4

Nfld: 5/7

YT: 0/1

NWT: 0/1

Nun: 0/1

clicketyclick

Where are you getting these numbers from and how can the territories have no representatives at all?

Our current system is based on the 2001 census. We get one seat in the Commons for every 107,220 people in the province or territory. If we went strictly off this system, none of the territories would get a seat in the commons because their populations are too low. Yukon: 28,674, NWT: 37,360, Nunavut: 26,745