Cardinal Egan: "abortion equivalent to Nazism".

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="munu9"]

I love how you people are so sentimental towards humans? Why so? Animals feel pain, too. They also feel sadness. If it's wrong to kill a form of human that feels no pain and is not conscious in any way. Why should we kill animals? We don't NEED animals for food. It's basically for pleasure at the expense of killing another living creature.

Engrish_Major

Plants feel pain, too.:| We as humans need to eat, we DO need animals for food (ever see a vegetarian? They can live without meat, but that's it), andhumans >>>>>>>> animals.

Animals aren't humans. Bad try.

I'm a vegetarian- what's your point? And plants feel pain? :lol:

Yes, plants have been proven to feel pain.

Fundemental human rights don't apply to something that isn't Human.

Donkey_Puncher

I agree, so why is abortion legal?;)

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Plants feel pain, too.:| We as humans need to eat, we DO need animals for food (ever see a vegetarian? They can live without meat, but that's it), andhumans >>>>>>>> animals.

Animals aren't humans. Bad try.

Donkey_Puncher

Plants don't feel pain, and humans ARE animals.

Plants do feel pain, and humans are not on the same level as animals.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="munu9"]

I love how you people are so sentimental towards humans? Why so? Animals feel pain, too. They also feel sadness. If it's wrong to kill a form of human that feels no pain and is not conscious in any way. Why should we kill animals? We don't NEED animals for food. It's basically for pleasure at the expense of killing another living creature.

munu9

Plants feel pain, too.:| We as humans need to eat, we DO need animals for food (ever see a vegetarian? They can live without meat, but that's it), andhumans >>>>>>>> animals.

Animals aren't humans. Bad try.

Plants don't feel pain, and they have no emotions. To live and to live healthy, again we don't NEED meat. And tell me again, why are animals superior to humans. (I don't necissarily believe this but I'm trying to disprove you with a paradox). An animal feels pain and has lower level emotions, too. They can't talk or understand things. But death itself is as horrible for them as it is for us.

Yes plants DO feel pain. Animals with emotions? Now that's the wild claim.

Yes, plants have been proven to feel pain.

Theokhoth

This is a joke website, right? Certainly looks like one. You believe this rubbish?

Also, what was your point about vegetarians being able to live, but just what?

Edit - It is a joke website :lol: Did you even read it, Theokoth? :lol: :lol:

Better article on plants and pain.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.

Better article on plants and pain.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.

Theokhoth

That doesn't have to do with pain. Just because a plant emits a chemical doesn't mean it feels pain. :roll:

Better article on plants and pain.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.

Theokhoth

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Better article on plants and pain.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.

Engrish_Major

That doesn't have to do with pain. Just because a plant emits a chemical doesn't mean it feels pain. :roll:

You obviously didn't read it. The plants release chemicals IN SELF DEFENSE when they are STRESSED; a reaction mechanism that they wouldn't need UNLESS THEY FELT PAIN.

They also have nervous systems. Don't believe me? They have a whole feild of study centering on this fact (plant neurobiology).:roll:

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

I agree, so why is abortion legal?;)

Plants feel pain, too.

Animals aren't humans.

Donkey_Puncher

It's legal because it's not a human, and for personal rights to one's body.

and lets just back track a little to when you took your one and only biology class in life. Plants do not feel pain, as they don't have a nervous system. And humans definately ARE human. Has school failed you that terribly?

1. A woman's body is separate from the fetus's.

2. I never said humans aren't human.:lol:

3. Don't insult my education if you can't spell "definitely."

Abortion - killing innocent humans for personal gain

Nazis - Killed innocent Jews for Hitler's personal gain

Hmmmm.....

seabiscuit8686

Personal gain? That's like saying that all women who get abortions did it on a bet or something. Not true, obviously. Maybe they can't have the baby, or aren't ready to do so. And that fetus can go to stem cell research, which would generally aid humanity.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Animals with emotions? Now that's the wild claim.

Donkey_Puncher

Have you ever owned a Pet, or atleast a dog? To make a claim that animals other than humans don't express emotion is moronic.

I own a dog now. What's your point? What makes you think they have emotion?

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Better article on plants and pain.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.

Theokhoth

That doesn't have to do with pain. Just because a plant emits a chemical doesn't mean it feels pain. :roll:

You obviously didn't read it. The plants release chemicals IN SELF DEFENSE when they are STRESSED; a reaction mechanism that they wouldn't need UNLESS THEY FELT PAIN.

They also have nervous systems. Don't believe me? They have a whole feild of study centering on this fact (plant neurobiology).:roll:

That doesn't mean that they "feel" pain. Scientists also believe that many lesser creatures don't feel pain like we do. Most fish, for instance, lack the neocortex that we do. That's where the sensation of pain that we feel comes from. Please try to understand the difference between recognizing a stimulus and reacting, and actually feeling a sensation of pain.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Better article on plants and pain.

Now I gotta go eat dinner.

Theokhoth

That doesn't have to do with pain. Just because a plant emits a chemical doesn't mean it feels pain. :roll:

You obviously didn't read it. The plants release chemicals IN SELF DEFENSE when they are STRESSED; a reaction mechanism that they wouldn't need UNLESS THEY FELT PAIN.

They also have nervous systems. Don't believe me? They have a whole feild of study centering on this fact (plant neurobiology).:roll:

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Animals with emotions? Now that's the wild claim.

Theokhoth

Have you ever owned a Pet, or atleast a dog? To make a claim that animals other than humans don't express emotion is moronic.

I own a dog now. What's your point? What makes you think they have emotion?

Animals don't feel emotions, but plants feel pain? You're really making these arguments?

I'd also still like to know what you think that vegetarians can't do.

Could you perhaps explain your logic there? :lol:Funky_Llama

Why do we feel pain in the first place?

1. A woman's body is separate from the fetus's.

2. I never said humans aren't human.:lol:

3. Don't insult my education if you can't spell "definitely."

Theokhoth

I can insult your intelligence all I want when you believe that plants feel pain. And a woman has a right to let whatever she wants LIVE inside her body or not.

I own a dog now. What's your point? What makes you think they have emotion?

Theokhoth

So your telling me you own a robot dog, or rather one that expresses emotions such as sad, happy, excited, or angry just like the rest of the dog owning population?

Dogs don't feel emotion? lol. Get a grip.

You're trying to convince me that plants feel pain, yet dogs or other animals do not even express emotions.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Animals with emotions? Now that's the wild claim.

Engrish_Major

Have you ever owned a Pet, or atleast a dog? To make a claim that animals other than humans don't express emotion is moronic.

I own a dog now. What's your point? What makes you think they have emotion?

Animals don't feel emotions, but plants feel pain? You're really making these arguments?

I'd also still like to know what you think that vegetarians can't do.

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

I agree, so why is abortion legal?;)

Plants feel pain, too.

Animals aren't humans.

Donkey_Puncher

It's legal because it's not a human, and for personal rights to one's body.

and lets just back track a little to when you took your one and only biology class in life. Plants do not feel pain, as they don't have a nervous system. And humans definately ARE human. Has school failed you that terribly?

It's not human what?? What is it than a dog and fish maybe a tree? at 7-8 weeks the embryo has all exteral features and internal organs of an adult, it's brain is formed, and movement is detected. You cannot say it's not human, it is definitely human, it can be nothing else, unless there was a serious flaw in the combination of DNA, in that case it would die within a few days anyways.

It's not human what?? What is it than a dog and fish maybe a tree? at 7-8 weeks the embryo has all exteral features and internal organs of an adult, it's brain is formed, and movement is detected. You cannot say it's not human, it is definitely human, it can be nothing else, unless there was a serious flaw in the combination of DNA, in that case it would die within a few days anyways.

ferrari2001

It's not a human plain and simple. It has the POTENTIAL to grow into one. That's like saying a seed is a plant, it just isn't true.

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Theokhoth

Pigs don't cry and lions don't speak english. Back to elementary school biology for you.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

It's not human what?? What is it than a dog and fish maybe a tree? at 7-8 weeks the embryo has all exteral features and internal organs of an adult, it's brain is formed, and movement is detected. You cannot say it's not human, it is definitely human, it can be nothing else, unless there was a serious flaw in the combination of DNA, in that case it would die within a few days anyways.

Donkey_Puncher

It's not a human plain and simple. It has the POTENTIAL to grow into one. That's like saying a seed is a plant, it just isn't true.

ok explain exactly to me why it isn't a human, it has human DNA, human organs, a human brain.. it's not a dog growing inside of a woman, it's not some alien creature. Logically speaking it can only be a human. a Fetus is the name of a stage of development not a type of creature.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

1. A woman's body is separate from the fetus's.

2. I never said humans aren't human.:lol:

3. Don't insult my education if you can't spell "definitely."

Donkey_Puncher

I can insult your intelligence all I want when you believe that plants feel pain. And a woman has a right to let whatever she wants LIVE inside her body or not.

Plants DO feel pain. Hell, they even had a mythbusters on it. But you don't seem to want to support your claim that animals feel emotions.

The woman has no right to evict it from the crib or otherwise let it die. She has no right to the human life inside of her.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

I own a dog now. What's your point? What makes you think they have emotion?

Donkey_Puncher

So your telling me you own a robot dog, or rather one that expresses emotions such as sad, happy, excited, or angry just like the rest of the dog owning population?

Dogs don't feel emotion? lol. Get a grip.

You're trying to convince me that plants feel pain, yet dogs or other animals do not even express emotions.

Um, people perceive emotions in creatures that don't have them. It's called anthropomorphising. Dogs do not express anger or hate or love or sadness; they express CIassical Conditioning. I assume you know what that is, what with your superior education (:lol: ).

By the way, it's "you're."

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Engrish_Major

Pigs don't cry and lions don't speak english. Back to elementary school biology for you.

Pigs don't cry because they don't express sadness. Lions don't need to speak English to get pissed.:lol:

Instead of insulting my education (which I can bet is better than yours), why don't you present a REAL argument?

ok explain exactly to me why it isn't a human, it has human DNA, human organs, a human brain.. it's not a dog growing inside of a woman, it's not some alien creature. Logically speaking it can only be a human. a Fetus is the name of a stage of development not a type of creature.

ferrari2001

It's not a human the same way that an acorn isn't an oak tree. Both have potential, but they are still two separate things. But this is irrelevant, as people (more specifically in this case women) have a right to their body, which supercedes that of anything growing inside of it.

[QUOTE="ferrari2001"]

ok explain exactly to me why it isn't a human, it has human DNA, human organs, a human brain.. it's not a dog growing inside of a woman, it's not some alien creature. Logically speaking it can only be a human. a Fetus is the name of a stage of development not a type of creature.

Donkey_Puncher

It's not a human the same way that an acorn isn't an oak tree. Both have potential, but they are still two separate things. But this is irrelevant, as people (more specifically in this case women) have a right to their body, which supercedes that of anything growing inside of it.

ok then if it's not a human what is it? It's alot different than an acorn is. An accorn has no traits of the tree, but a fetus has all the traits of a human person except the way it eats..

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Theokhoth

Pigs don't cry and lions don't speak english. Back to elementary school biology for you.

Pigs don't cry because they don't express sadness. Lions don't need to speak English to get pissed.:lol:

Instead of insulting my education (which I can bet is better than yours), why don't you present a REAL argument?

Because you're the one saying animals don't feel emotion, and you have yet to present a real argument. How do I respond to that?

Because you're the one saying animals don't feel emotion, and you have yet to present a real argument. How do I respond to that?

Engrish_Major

Simple: by showing me research to support YOUR CLAIM that animals show emotion.:lol:

I'm not the one insulting your education, nor am I the one equating language with emotion.

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Theokhoth

Your logic is severely flawed. You're thinking that just because they do not express their emotions the same way we do, that they don't have any. Not the case. Here's a bit of proof, and some more.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Theokhoth

Pigs don't cry and lions don't speak english. Back to elementary school biology for you.

Pigs don't cry because they don't express sadness. Lions don't need to speak English to get pissed.:lol:

Instead of insulting my education (which I can bet is better than yours), why don't you present a REAL argument?

By the way, I'm stunned by the depths of sheer wrongness that's you're sinking to today. :lol:

Um, people perceive emotions in creatures that don't have them. It's called anthropomorphising. Dogs do not express anger or hate or love or sadness; they express CIassical Conditioning. I assume you know what that is, what with your superior education (:lol: ).

By the way, it's "you're."

Theokhoth

No, animals express emotion just as humans do. Emotions have been around far longer than humans, hence we all share it.

Go home and hit your dog severly, make some observations on it. Then tomorrow reward it with nothing but treats and play with it.

It's as plain to see that dogs have emotions, and in this case as a response to how its owner treats it.

[QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

Because you're the one saying animals don't feel emotion, and you have yet to present a real argument. How do I respond to that?

Theokhoth

Simple: by showing me research to support YOUR CLAIM that animals show emotion.:lol:

I'm not the one insulting your education, nor am I the one equating language with emotion.

You equated language with emotion when your example was insulting a lion's hair :roll:

You're the one that brought it up. Show me a study that shows animals are emotionless. As for your other example about a sad pig, Jane Goodall has documented grief in primates multiple times. Zookeepers report the same.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Video_Game_King

Your logic is severely flawed. You're thinking that just because they do not express their emotions the same way we do, that they don't have any. Not the case. Here's a bit of proof, and some more.

Your first link is a television series that uses cIassical conditioning to train dogs.

Your second link is an unverified site that anthropomorphisizes cats by giving them words to go with body language.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Engrish_Major"]

Because you're the one saying animals don't feel emotion, and you have yet to present a real argument. How do I respond to that?

Engrish_Major

Simple: by showing me research to support YOUR CLAIM that animals show emotion.:lol:

I'm not the one insulting your education, nor am I the one equating language with emotion.

You equated language with emotion when your example was insulting a lion's hair :roll:

You're the one that brought it up. Show me a study that shows animals are emotionless. As for your other example about a sad pig, Jane Goodall has documented grief in primates multiple times. Zookeepers report the same.

No, animals express emotion just as humans do. Emotions have been around far longer than humans, hence we all share it.

Go home and hit your dog severly, make some observations on it. Then tomorrow reward it with nothing but treats and play with it.

It's as plain to see that dogs have emotions, and in this case as a response to how its owner treats it.

Donkey_Puncher

Your dog responds to the pain of you hitting it by getting away from the pain; a natural reaction inherent in everything (including plants) living.

The dog doesn't show any emotion with the treats; just sits there.

You know what I did? I gave the dog a treat every time she sat, while saying "sit" at the same time. Eventually, she began to sit without the treat. Does she have emotion? No, I merely used cIassical conditioning.

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

No, animals express emotion just as humans do. Emotions have been around far longer than humans, hence we all share it.

Go home and hit your dog severly, make some observations on it. Then tomorrow reward it with nothing but treats and play with it.

It's as plain to see that dogs have emotions, and in this case as a response to how its owner treats it.

Theokhoth

Your dog responds to the pain of you hitting it by getting away from the pain; a natural reaction inherent in everything (including plants) living.

The dog doesn't show any emotion with the treats; just sits there.

You know what I did? I gave the dog a treat every time she sat, while saying "sit" at the same time. Eventually, she began to sit without the treat. Does she have emotion? No, I merely used cIassical conditioning.

Pets are genuinly happy when presented with a treat, or when they see their owner coming home. The dog responds when it is hit by showing fear. If animals don't show fear, nothing does. How can you say in one post that plants feel pain when given a stimulus, but animals don't show emotion when given the same?

You equated language with emotion when your example was insulting a lion's hair :roll:

You're the one that brought it up. Show me a study that shows animals are emotionless. As for your other example about a sad pig, Jane Goodall has documented grief in primates multiple times. Zookeepers report the same.

Engrish_Major

Uh, I did NOT bring it up.:| Either you or Donkey-Puncher did, and so far, neither of you have demonstrated it with anything more than "lol your [sic] stupid" and "Zookeepers report. . .[What zookeepers?]" and "Jane Goodall says. . .[Where did she say?]"

[QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

No, animals express emotion just as humans do. Emotions have been around far longer than humans, hence we all share it.

Go home and hit your dog severly, make some observations on it. Then tomorrow reward it with nothing but treats and play with it.

It's as plain to see that dogs have emotions, and in this case as a response to how its owner treats it.

Theokhoth

Your dog responds to the pain of you hitting it by getting away from the pain; a natural reaction inherent in everything (including plants) living.

The dog doesn't show any emotion with the treats; just sits there.

You know what I did? I gave the dog a treat every time she sat, while saying "sit" at the same time. Eventually, she began to sit without the treat. Does she have emotion? No, I merely used cIassical conditioning.

theo is definitely right. Animals do not feel emotions, animals base their behavior off of their instinct. They are hit they back away and run. you feed them pet them, they will come to the food or the petting because it's tastes and feels good.

[QUOTE="Video_Game_King"][QUOTE="Theokhoth"]

Where is the proof that animals have emotions? Have you ever slapped a pig and it start crying? Have you ever insulted a lion's hair and it got pissed at you?

I never said I don't think vegetarians can do xyz. . . the plants-only diet, however, can be bad for a person's iron storage, causing several problems, especially in kids.

Theokhoth

Your logic is severely flawed. You're thinking that just because they do not express their emotions the same way we do, that they don't have any. Not the case. Here's a bit of proof, and some more.

Your first link is a television series that uses cIassical conditioning to train dogs.

Your second link is an unverified site that anthropomorphisizes cats by giving them words to go with body language.

They both show that animals have emotions.

Heh, you beat me to the primate emotion thing. Yup... when a primate mother dies, she will sometimes carry the body of her baby around with her for days. If that's not mourning, I don't know what is.Funky_Llama

I know what it is: anthropomorphising. You're reflecting your emotions on an animal even though the animal isn't necessarily doing anything emotional.

They both show that animals have emotions.

Video_Game_King

The first shows a psychological fact called cIassical conditioning that is used to manipulate the behaviors (not emotions) of animals and people. Not emotion.

Your second does nothing but give words to go along with the body language of cats, which is anthropomorphising the cat.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Donkey_Puncher"]

No, animals express emotion just as humans do. Emotions have been around far longer than humans, hence we all share it.

Go home and hit your dog severly, make some observations on it. Then tomorrow reward it with nothing but treats and play with it.

It's as plain to see that dogs have emotions, and in this case as a response to how its owner treats it.

ferrari2001

Your dog responds to the pain of you hitting it by getting away from the pain; a natural reaction inherent in everything (including plants) living.

The dog doesn't show any emotion with the treats; just sits there.

You know what I did? I gave the dog a treat every time she sat, while saying "sit" at the same time. Eventually, she began to sit without the treat. Does she have emotion? No, I merely used cIassical conditioning.

theo is definitely right. Animals do not feel emotions, animals base their behavior off of their instinct. They are hit they back away and run. you feed them pet them, they will come to the food or the petting because it's tastes and feels good.

I have a hard time believing that if an Animal can suffer from depression, it's void of all emotion.

theo is definitely right. Animals do not feel emotions, animals base their behavior off of their instinct. They are hit they back away and run. you feed them pet them, they will come to the food or the petting because it's tastes and feels good.

ferrari2001

No, you both are wrong. Emotions in animals are due to the structural similarity of our brains. See this for instance:

"In large part, researchers have found that emotions are accompanied by biochemical changes in the brain. Fear, for instance, is accompanied by the production of one set of brain chemicals that can make us alert and ready to flee, while pleasure triggers the release of other chemicals that soothe and calm. But some emotions aren't so biologically clear-cut. Shame, for instance, is a so-called "social emotion," the product of attaching an emotional meaning to a behavior, such as hitting another person, or lying, that may be appropriate in one social setting but out of bounds in another.

While researchers don't agree on how big a role such social emotions play in the animal world, there is widespread agreement that many animals share another emotional characteristic with us."

You know what I did? I gave the dog a treat every time she sat, while saying "sit" at the same time. Eventually, she began to sit without the treat. Does she have emotion? No, I merely used cIassical conditioning. Theokhoth

What you're describing is training, not emotion. Repeatidly beat the living hell out of your dog and check what his reaction to you after several years of it. He'll be scared or angry any time you approach him, hell any mistreated animal will act this way. That's called fear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_in_animals#Further_reading

Primates and in particular Great Apes are candidates for highly developed capabilities for empathy and theories of mind. Great Apes have highly complex social systems. Young apes and their mothers have very strong bonds of attachment. Often when a baby chimpanzee or gorilla dies, the mother will carry the body around for several days[3]. Jane Goodall has described chimpanzees as exhibiting mournful behavior.[4]

Pets are genuinly happy when presented with a treat, or when they see their owner coming home. The dog responds when it is hit by showing fear. If animals don't show fear, nothing does. How can you say in one post that plants feel pain when given a stimulus, but animals don't show emotion when given the same?

Engrish_Major

They use INSTINCT, not EMOTION. Pets are "happy" when you come home because, first of all, it's like they haven't seen you in many years, as some animals have little memory. Some forget you even existed! The ones that remember you instinctively go "oh, here comes the guy with food" and instinctively react. They instinctively react to pain by getting away from pain and avoiding the thing that causes pain.

You're mixing emotion with instinct. Pain is an instictive feeling and has nothing to do with emotion. Plants don't feel emotion; they feel pain due to their nervous systems.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Heh, you beat me to the primate emotion thing. Yup... when a primate mother dies, she will sometimes carry the body of her baby around with her for days. If that's not mourning, I don't know what is.Theokhoth

I know what it is: anthropomorphising. You're reflecting your emotions on an animal even though the animal isn't necessarily doing anything emotional.