College Sophomore writes column about Rape and gets lambasted, now defending it

Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.Theokhoth

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]I think at least the things he said in the interview are correct. As an adult woman she should know the risk. If I where flammable clothes and run through a fire I should expect to get burned.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]I think at least the things he said in the interview are correct. As an adult woman she should know the risk. If I where flammable clothes and run through a fire I should expect to get burned.jeremiah06

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

Also, I dont care how drunk or sober you are, but it is not rape unless the woman says "no".

Unless she is drugged and/or unconscious.

jeremiah06

ahh I did not know that.

Seems unfair.

What about the male? What if he is to drunk to say no?

All the examples provided, and the original author's point of view, is from the basis that both parties are too drunk to make judgement calls. I feel it is wrong to blame solely the guy, and accuse him of rape, in these situations.

We argue about equal rights and feminism and treating women no differently than we treat men, but with laws like this that are so biased, we are hypocrites

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

Also, I dont care how drunk or sober you are, but it is not rape unless the woman says "no".

Unless she is drugged and/or unconscious.

mrbojangles25

ahh I did not know that.

Seems unfair.

What about the male? What if he is to drunk to say no?

All the examples provided, and the original author's point of view, is from the basis that both parties are too drunk to make judgement calls. I feel it is wrong to blame solely the guy, and accuse him of rape, in these situations.

We argue about equal rights and feminism and treating women no differently than we treat men, but with laws like this that are so biased, we are hypocrites

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] There is a risk to driving a car at 2 AM when the bars close. Does that mean if one is hit by a drunk driver they are the ones at fault because there was a risk?

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Thats life man. There is no action without risk. Somethings can't be avoided. However, if there was a way to avoid it then yes. Also the situations are very different. For this example to be relevant the driver would have to have been leaving one of those bars. jeremiah06

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Well, according to the law(at least in MI) it is not possible to consent to sex if your ability to make decisions is impaired. So, sex whether or not she said yes while drunk is rape.LJS9502_basic

ahh I did not know that.

Seems unfair.

What about the male? What if he is to drunk to say no?

All the examples provided, and the original author's point of view, is from the basis that both parties are too drunk to make judgement calls. I feel it is wrong to blame solely the guy, and accuse him of rape, in these situations.

We argue about equal rights and feminism and treating women no differently than we treat men, but with laws like this that are so biased, we are hypocrites

true

but this is not really about who is attacking who.

This is about lack of restraint on both sides. This is about willing, albeit drunken, sex and regretting it. People shouldnt be punished for that. Unless they have a baby. Then its 18 years of punishment.

There are many examples of rape and alcohol going hand in hand:
1. Girl drinks and passes out,guys has sex with her. Thats rape
2. Girl is drunk and guy is sober, guy should have self control but takes advantage of girl. Thats rape
3. Guy puts drugs in girls drink to get her drunk faster/drugged. Thats rape.

I just fail to see, however, how its rape when two drunk people have sex and there is no foul play.

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

Also, I dont care how drunk or sober you are, but it is not rape unless the woman says "no".

Unless she is drugged and/or unconscious.

ahh I did not know that.

Seems unfair.

What about the male? What if he is to drunk to say no?

All the examples provided, and the original author's point of view, is from the basis that both parties are too drunk to make judgement calls. I feel it is wrong to blame solely the guy, and accuse him of rape, in these situations.

We argue about equal rights and feminism and treating women no differently than we treat men, but with laws like this that are so biased, we are hypocrites

Maybe he was but was drinking pop all night. Nonetheless, it's NOT necessary for him to be leaving a bar. Merely that he be in a situation that has risk. And frankly, just getting into a car no matter when or where carries inherent risk. However, it's not right to blame the victim.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="jeremiah06"] OK, if you are at a bar and you're not drinking why couldn't you leave 20 mins early? I wasn't clear before, but I'm not saying 100% fault should be given to the risk taker, however some fault should be placed for reckless decisions.

jeremiah06

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] And being as it's a crime to take advantage of a drunk girl in this way...but not a crime to make foolish decisions....I don't see the comparison.LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.positivebalance

They're in a different position than men. I can't tell you how many times I've gone out and gotten so completely wasted that I didn't even know where I was, and I didn't need a friend looking after me to make sure nothing bad happened. Even if men do end up sleeping with random strangers most men look at that as a good thing, women are more likely to regret it. And women, who usually get drunk faster, are in more of a position to be taken advantadge of. If a woman goes out to a bar alone or veers away from her friends and gets completely wasted the consequences can be much more dire than a man who does that. They're simply in more vunerable circumstances, and people who take advantadge of that need to be held accountable.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"] Leaving the bar early is equivalent to sending the drunk girl home. If you are the sober party then the responsibility is yours to make sure nothing happens. Also isn't that the point were arguing? How foolish decisions SHOULD warrant consequence.jeremiah06

If the guy is sober he should be smart enough not to take the drunk girl home in the first place, that's easily a more reckless decision than a girl letting off some steam by getting drunk.

There are many examples of rape and alcohol going hand in hand:
1. Girl drinks and passes out,guys has sex with her. Thats rape
2. Girl is drunk and guy is sober, guy should have self control but takes advantage of girl. Thats rape
3. Guy puts drugs in girls drink to get her drunk faster/drugged. Thats rape.

I just fail to see, however, how its rape when two drunk people have sex and there is no foul play.

mrbojangles25

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]So you are blaming a sober driver for getting hit by a drunk driver?:|

If the guy is sober he should be smart enough not to take the drunk girl home in the first place, that's easily a more reckless decision than a girl letting off some steam by getting drunk.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.gameguy6700

To be fair, I do have a problem with alcohol "date rapes". It's one thing when a guy drugs a woman and has sex with her while she's too weak to resist or unconscious. It's a whole 'nother thing when a girl has a lot to drink, agrees to have sex with a guy, and then wakes up the morning after thinking "OMG what have I done?" and cries rape. Furthermore, in the scenario of a frat party it's very likely that the guy is also drunk yet I doubt anyone is going to claim that he was raped. In fact, I've yet to hear of a case where a man got drunk, had sex with a woman, and successfully declared that she raped him.

The keyword there is "agrees to have sex". I don't agree with the kid that there's a such thing as "implied consent". Just because a girl goes to your room with you doesn't mean she wants to have sex. It is my opinion though that if she says "let's have sex" or something along those lines then she's still cognizant enough to know what she means. I've been completely ****-faced drunk on several occasions (to the point of winding up over a toilet puking my guts out) and yet I've always managed to keep myself from doing anything I might regret. I would assume that most other people are the same way.

I find myself agreeing with him somewhat, I think there's a small wrinkle to situations like this that needs to be considered. The way I see it, if both the guy and the girl are about equally as drunk, with both their judgments about equally impaired, it would in no way be fair to charge the man with rape after the fact if the girl never said no. However, if a guy went into a the hypothetical party and drank very little, his plan to look for impaired girls to take advantage of (or even if this were not planned, if the thought just came to him), takes a girl back to his room, and sex takes place, then I think you could argue the man has raped the woman. If the man is of able mind, but the woman not, then I could see it as rape. Now I don't know how you would prove this legally, but its the way I see it.Cube_of_MooN

While I somewhat agree with the implicit advice that women who don't want to have sex that they then later regret should not get drunk at a party surrounded by men they don't know...

"Like the other great religions of the world, though, the goal of contemporary feminism and Gay Party activism is not to explain sex, but to abolish its passion. The yin and yang of masculinity and femininity is what makes sexual exploration exciting. Sex isn't about contract-signing. It's about spontaneity, raw energy and control (or its counterpart, surrender). Feminism envisions a bedroom scene in which two amorphous, gender-neutral blobs ask each other 'Is this OK with you?' before daring to move their lips any lower on the other's body. Worse yet: a gender-neutral sexuality can have no conception of the inherently gendered thrills of fetishism, sadomasochism, kink or cross-dressing. How blasé!"

...wtf is this guy talking about!?

GabuEx

I think he is subtly saying that for somebody who is into submission and a partner who is into domination; concent is a bit of a turn off and the law is unrealistic in expecting the two people to agree verbally when it's far more sexy to just go with it. *cough*... I mean that's probably what he means :?

he is somewhat right...

Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.Theokhoth

To be fair, I do have a problem with alcohol "date rapes". It's one thing when a guy drugs a woman and has sex with her while she's too weak to resist or unconscious. It's a whole 'nother thing when a girl has a lot to drink, agrees to have sex with a guy, and then wakes up the morning after thinking "OMG what have I done?" and cries rape. Furthermore, in the scenario of a frat party it's very likely that the guy is also drunk yet I doubt anyone is going to claim that he was raped. In fact, I've yet to hear of a case where a man got drunk, had sex with a woman, and successfully declared that she raped him.

The keyword there is "agrees to have sex". I don't agree with the kid that there's a such thing as "implied consent". Just because a girl goes to your room with you doesn't mean she wants to have sex. It is my opinion though that if she says "let's have sex" or something along those lines then she's still cognizant enough to know what she means. I've been completely ****-faced drunk on several occasions (to the point of winding up over a toilet puking my guts out) and yet I've always managed to keep myself from doing anything I might regret. I would assume that most other people are the same way.

I think what he's saying is also being taken out of context in his defense. One of his quotes was something like, "If a woman is wearing attractive clothing and goes back to a guy's room, it's implied that she wants sex." That's absolutely ridiculous, who in their right mind would think that as soon as a woman comes into your room you have free reign of her body? It's the same thing as rapists saying the woman was asking for it by dressing attractively, complete trash logic.

[QUOTE="positivebalance"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.theone86

They're in a different position than men. I can't tell you how many times I've gone out and gotten so completely wasted that I didn't even know where I was, and I didn't need a friend looking after me to make sure nothing bad happened. Even if men do end up sleeping with random strangers most men look at that as a good thing, women are more likely to regret it. And women, who usually get drunk faster, are in more of a position to be taken advantadge of. If a woman goes out to a bar alone or veers away from her friends and gets completely wasted the consequences can be much more dire than a man who does that. They're simply in more vunerable circumstances, and people who take advantadge of that need to be held accountable.

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"]

There are many examples of rape and alcohol going hand in hand:
1. Girl drinks and passes out,guys has sex with her. Thats rape
2. Girl is drunk and guy is sober, guy should have self control but takes advantage of girl. Thats rape
3. Guy puts drugs in girls drink to get her drunk faster/drugged. Thats rape.

I just fail to see, however, how its rape when two drunk people have sex and there is no foul play.

ghoklebutter

Idunno, man, its a sore subject for all. Truth be told I would find it difficult to state my beliefs face to face with a fellow human. God bless the anonymity of the internet for that, I guess :P Having sex and regretting it in the morning (its happened to me once, I will never forget that moment lol) is bad enough, but in legitimate situations of date rape I cannot imagine how bad it feels. I worked with a girl that was drugged (thankfully she was not raped), and it was frightening just listening to her tell how it was...she had no self-control, she couldnt even move...if someone wanted to have sex with her, she would just lay there and take it with no ability to resist.

I am just sick and tired of people White Knighting (my new favorite internet term...) this situation. "Thou hadst sex with a drunken wench!?! To the stockade with thou, despicable rake!" they shout, without any consideration for the background of either party, the situation, the level of intoxication, etc. If we want true equality, we will stop giving women special treatment, start giving men the benefit of a doubt, and make things genuinely equal.

[QUOTE="positivebalance"]

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"]Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.theone86

They're in a different position than men. I can't tell you how many times I've gone out and gotten so completely wasted that I didn't even know where I was, and I didn't need a friend looking after me to make sure nothing bad happened. Even if men do end up sleeping with random strangers most men look at that as a good thing, women are more likely to regret it. And women, who usually get drunk faster, are in more of a position to be taken advantadge of. If a woman goes out to a bar alone or veers away from her friends and gets completely wasted the consequences can be much more dire than a man who does that. They're simply in more vunerable circumstances, and people who take advantadge of that need to be held accountable.

I agree with you concerning your last sentence. People that take advantage of impaired people need to be held accountable.

But the guy didnt state that; he implied that both parties are drunk. Both could be taking advantage of each other, or not even at all. Theyre just drunk...people drink, they get horny. Men, women...doesnt matter.

You're also right about women and men having different tolerances for alcohol, but if the result at the end of the night is a drunk male and a drunk female, well, all things are equal, and accountabiltiy does not default to the male.

I find this as one big epic of lulz.

If the woman agrees then it is not rape. If she doesnt or is drugged or unconscious then its rape, simple as that. As far as the argument this guy is throwing at people i agree with him. Society has given woman to many chances, if you dress scantly or get drunk around people you dont know and this happens then dont be surprised. Also its common since which sadly people do not have anymore.

I'm totally getting wasted and boning sober **** w/out a jimmy hat on... then when they try to pull that "you need to pay child support" crap, Imma gonna say **** I ain't gotta pay nothing you knew I was drunk."

Everyone should be accountable for their own actions, being drunk or not.

you're right, they are in a different position. that's why they shouldn't go so trashed at parties. it's entirely their fault if they decide to binge drink.

positivebalance

Oh, so men can binge drink and it's alright, but for women it's not OK, double standard much? What you're basically saying is tantamout to blaming any victim for any crime of being in a bad position. OK, so I walked through a bad part of town and got mugged, but if I can identify the person who did it they shouldn't be punished because I shouldn't have been walking there anyways. That logic is crap. I'm not saying women aren't more vunerable when they do drink, but to say it's their fault when something bad happens instead of the person who KNOWINGLY took advantadge of them is complete horse****.

I agree with you concerning your last sentence. People that take advantage of impaired people need to be held accountable.

But the guy didnt state that; he implied that both parties are drunk. Both could be taking advantage of each other, or not even at all. Theyre just drunk...people drink, they get horny. Men, women...doesnt matter.

You're also right about women and men having different tolerances for alcohol, but if the result at the end of the night is a drunk male and a drunk female, well, all things are equal, and accountabiltiy does not default to the male.

mrbojangles25

The guy said a lot more than that, like his comment about if a woman goes into a man's room that automatically means she should put out. To me this guy sounds like a complete tool, all he's doing is throwing **** against a wall. Maybe some of it sticks, but it's not because he's actually making a decent point it's because he's an unapologetic mysogenist who simply happened to hit on one relevant issue while going through his list of male-centric ravings.

[QUOTE="Ultimas_Blade"]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/american-rape-column_n_520630.html

http://www.theeagleonline.com/opinion/story/dealing-with-aus-anti-sex-brigade/

What do you think about the column this kid wrote?

iowastate

What? What kind of tree are you smoking? HP left of center and CITES ACCURATE SOURCES, whereas Faux News is so far right it's commentators think a moderate like thePOTUS is a Marxi-Leni-Commu-Nazi! :roll:

Hannity? Beck? O'Reilly? Pfft, Faux News' stable of commentators are EXTREMELY biased for the right.

[QUOTE="positivebalance"]

you're right, they are in a different position. that's why they shouldn't go so trashed at parties. it's entirely their fault if they decide to binge drink.

theone86

Oh, so men can binge drink and it's alright, but for women it's not OK, double standard much? What you're basically saying is tantamout to blaming any victim for any crime of being in a bad position. OK, so I walked through a bad part of town and got mugged, but if I can identify the person who did it they shouldn't be punished because I shouldn't have been walking there anyways. That logic is crap. I'm not saying women aren't more vunerable when they do drink, but to say it's their fault when something bad happens instead of the person who KNOWINGLY took advantadge of them is complete horse****.

you get smashed man or woman...you are still responsible...

as an adult you gotta be able to use common sense and forsee some things

This guy was right and made 100% sense. You know why its a controversy?

Political Correctness. PC is destroying our society from the inside out, things that should be debated and talked about aren't, because of PC. What he said is extremely incorrect and stirred up some controversy. But it was right.

[QUOTE="KH-mixerX"][QUOTE="gameguy6700"]

To be fair, I do have a problem with alcohol "date rapes". It's one thing when a guy drugs a woman and has sex with her while she's too weak to resist or unconscious. It's a whole 'nother thing when a girl has a lot to drink, agrees to have sex with a guy, and then wakes up the morning after thinking "OMG what have I done?" and cries rape. Furthermore, in the scenario of a frat party it's very likely that the guy is also drunk yet I doubt anyone is going to claim that he was raped. In fact, I've yet to hear of a case where a man got drunk, had sex with a woman, and successfully declared that she raped him.

The keyword there is "agrees to have sex". I don't agree with the kid that there's a such thing as "implied consent". Just because a girl goes to your room with you doesn't mean she wants to have sex. It is my opinion though that if she says "let's have sex" or something along those lines then she's still cognizant enough to know what she means. I've been completely ****-faced drunk on several occasions (to the point of winding up over a toilet puking my guts out) and yet I've always managed to keep myself from doing anything I might regret. I would assume that most other people are the same way.

jeremiah06

Ah yes, blame the victim. Now what I would suggest to this gentleman is that he move somewhere where people might share his views. Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan perhaps? However, I do think this moron just wants the attention.

His viewpoint is wrong, but fairly common. I kind of feel bad for him since he is being reprimanded so publicly. Thats not to say that he doesn't kind of deserve it, but this seems harsh.Meinhard_X

He's justifying rape. Of course people are going to get bent out of shape, this isn't Saudi Arabia.

[QUOTE="Meinhard_X"]His viewpoint is wrong, but fairly common. I kind of feel bad for him since he is being reprimanded so publicly. Thats not to say that he doesn't kind of deserve it, but this seems harsh.SgtKevali

He's justifying rape. Of course people are going to get bent out of shape, this isn't Saudi Arabia.

Ah yes, blame the victim. Now what I would suggest to this gentleman is that he move somewhere where people might share his views. Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan perhaps? However, I do think this moron just wants the attention.

SgtKevali

I'm sorry but it is 2010. Any person over 21 should know not to drink until the point of memory lossaround strange/unfamiliar people at ANY social gathering. Doing so only makes you an easier target. Hell, it is like the concept of Defensive Driving. Also, never go to a party ALONE if you are going to be drinking (even justone!)and you don't know a soul in the room.

[QUOTE="SgtKevali"]

Ah yes, blame the victim. Now what I would suggest to this gentleman is that he move somewhere where people might share his views. Saudi Arabia, or Afghanistan perhaps? However, I do think this moron just wants the attention.

Ultimas_Blade

I'm sorry but it is 2010. Any person over 21 should know not to drink until the point of memory lossaround strange/unfamiliar people at ANY social gathering. Doing so only makes you an easier target. Hell, it is like the concept of Defensive Driving. Also, never go to a party ALONE if you are going to be drinking (even justone!)and you don't know a soul in the room.

I understand, people should be responsible about drinking. However, it is repugnant to blame the victim when you should be blaming the rapist.

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"] Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| RichardStallman

Being drank?

Wow, he sounds like a complete dick. "Let's get this straight: any woman who heads to an EI party as an anonymous onlooker, drinks five cups of the jungle juice, and walks back to a boy's room with him is indicating that she wants sex, OK?" Or that she's drunk and doesn't understand entirely what she's doing. :| He really sounds like one of those "Women who dress xyz way really want it" people. In short, a rape apologist.Theokhoth

Well, a girl who puts herself in that situation has it coming to be honest. It's not ok to drink and drive because "she doesn't understand entirely what she's doing". Being drunk doesn't aleviate her from anything. I've known girls who have told me they were raped by guys I know. I talked to these same guys and they were both drunk at a party and things got sexual. In one case, the girl's supposed protest was " this isn't a good idea".

[QUOTE="theone86"]

[QUOTE="positivebalance"]

you're right, they are in a different position. that's why they shouldn't go so trashed at parties. it's entirely their fault if they decide to binge drink.

weezyfb

Oh, so men can binge drink and it's alright, but for women it's not OK, double standard much? What you're basically saying is tantamout to blaming any victim for any crime of being in a bad position. OK, so I walked through a bad part of town and got mugged, but if I can identify the person who did it they shouldn't be punished because I shouldn't have been walking there anyways. That logic is crap. I'm not saying women aren't more vunerable when they do drink, but to say it's their fault when something bad happens instead of the person who KNOWINGLY took advantadge of them is complete horse****.

you get smashed man or woman...you are still responsible...

as an adult you gotta be able to use common sense and forsee some things

What I'm saying is that when both parties are equally as drunk there's more risk for women due to the position they're in, and what he was saying was that women should drink less because of that. That's a double standard, that men should be able to party without fear of reprisal and not only can women not do that but they can't because of the actions that certain males will take due to their vunerable position.

Also, I realize that getting drunk is a risk, but that doesn't make them responsible for everything that happens while they're drunk. Yes, they run the risk that something could happen, but that doesn't absolve the scumbag who picked up a woman at a party, took her back to his room, and had sex with her when she was obviously drunk. Men still hold a good deal of responsibility here, if a woman's drunk you probably shouldn't be sleeping with her and if she says no you had damn well better stop. Like my analogy about getting mugged, if I walk through a bad neighborhood I know my chances of getting mugged might increase, but that doesn't make the mugger right.