Did Jesus Christ Sin? (Poll)

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]Just because God can do everything doesn't mean he will :|tycoonmike

That doesn't mean God sins.LJS9502_Basic

Can either of you define what God does?

If so, then It is not omnipotent, for how can a human define the infinite beyond using synonym?

If not, then how can any of us know beyond making an assumption?

If God is truly omnipotent, the most we can ever do is make assumptions of Its actions. The beauty of it is that all of our assumptions are right because It is omnipotent. Very circular, wouldn't you agree? Yet another example of definition by synonym.

Unless of course you are debating this in regards to a literal interpretation of the evangelists.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Can either of you define what God does?

If so, then It is not omnipotent, for how can a human define the infinite beyond using synonym?

If not, then how can any of us know beyond making an assumption?

If God is truly omnipotent, the most we can ever do is make assumptions of Its actions. The beauty of it is that all of our assumptions are right because It is omnipotent. Very circular, wouldn't you agree? Yet another example of definition by synonym.

tycoonmike

!. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

2. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

Thus Jesus as God cannot sin.

As I stated before this thread is not started with the correct premise of sin in regard to God.

Omnipotence: the ability to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible (Yes, wikipedia, so shoot me)

No matter what the definition of sin you wish to use, Revelation 19:6 means that God, and any form thereof, can, will, does, and has sinned.

KJV, Revelation 19:6

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

The Da Vinci Code is fiction and without historical support.

RiseAgainst12

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]No. In theology sin is....

!. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

2. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

Thus Jesus as God cannot sin.

As I stated before this thread is not started with the correct premise of sin in regard to God.

LJS9502_basic

Omnipotence: the ability to do absolutely anything, even the logically impossible (Yes, wikipedia, so shoot me)

No matter what the definition of sin you wish to use, Revelation 19:6 means that God, and any form thereof, can, will, does, and has sinned.

KJV, Revelation 19:6

And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

And where does it say that God chose not to sin?

And where does it say that God chose not to sin?

tycoonmike

I am sure the authors of the Bible had no intention in writing a written work taking into consideration the exact meaning of the technical terms. That could be quite pedantic.

Unless of course you are debating this in regards to a literal interpretation of the evangelists.

Teenaged

Both accounts are correct, but it is the former that I am debating today. To me, the Bible is nothing more than an attempt to define the undefinable, being God, in finite terms. By sticking the terms like omnipotent and almighty in there, they pretty much make the entire story of the Bible and of the Old Testament an exercise in circular thought.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And where does it say that God chose not to sin?

LJS9502_basic

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And where does it say that God chose not to sin?

tycoonmike

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And where does it say that God chose not to sin?

tycoonmike

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

:P

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And where does it say that God chose not to sin?

tycoonmike

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

Or.....

"if god can do anything then he can makatsutsutu"

It doesnt matter if it makes no sense, he CAN do it... :P

Sorry not being sarcastic about tycoonmike whose point is somewhat valid, but I think the logic riddles a theological view can put us through is funny. :P

Also from Wiki....

The ability to 'sin', for example, is not a power but a defect or an infirmity.

His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to his power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it,' you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can.'... It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of his creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because his power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Lewis.

If he was human, he had to sin as according to the bible at least once in his life.

But the thing that intrigues me is the relationship between the bible and the actual examples of Christ, at times it's often quite polarising.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually given the theological definition of sin it's not something applicable to God. Sin is a concept for people of disobeying God. It's illogical to apply it to God. So it's not in the definition of omnipotent where the problem lies but in the misapplication of the word sin.

Funky_Llama

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

Then, going back to the original premise, can you define what God does?

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Actually given the theological definition of sin it's not something applicable to God. Sin is a concept for people of disobeying God. It's illogical to apply it to God. So it's not in the definition of omnipotent where the problem lies but in the misapplication of the word sin.

LJS9502_basic

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

OK, then let's be a little clearer: can God perform an action that, if performed by a human, would result in sin?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

tycoonmike

OK, then let's be a little clearer: can God perform an action that, if performed by a human, would result in sin?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

tycoonmike

Then, going back to the original premise, can you define what God does?

OK, then let's be a little clearer: can God perform an action that, if performed by a human, would result in sin?

tycoonmike

I know one thing he doesn't: exist. :PMrPraline

Do you believe in the existence of the Universe? If so, then it is your God because you cannot provide empirical evidence for the existence of the Universe, much like how I cannot provide empirical evidence for the existence of God, as a deity in the sky.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

OK, then let's be a little clearer: can God perform an action that, if performed by a human, would result in sin?

LJS9502_basic

By your will...

A mother, her newborn, and myself are hiding from enemy soldiers who have invaded our city in my basement. There is only one exit, which leads to the outside. The four-month old begins crying out of control without any way to stop her crying. If she doesn't stop the soldiers outside will hear and kill us, but if the crying were to stop the soldiers would leave the immediate area. The only way to stop her crying is to kill the child. The mother can't do it, so it's up to me.

If I were to choose to kill the child, wouldn't this cause a rift within myself, or anyone else for that matter, despite surviving?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

OK, then let's be a little clearer: can God perform an action that, if performed by a human, would result in sin?

tycoonmike

By your will...

A mother, her newborn, and myself are hiding from enemy soldiers who have invaded our city in my basement. There is only one exit, which leads to the outside. The four-month old begins crying out of control without any way to stop her crying. If she doesn't stop the soldiers outside will hear and kill us, but if the crying were to stop the soldiers would leave the immediate area. The only way to stop her crying is to kill the child. The mother can't do it, so it's up to me.

If I were to choose to kill the child, wouldn't this cause a rift within myself, or anyone else for that matter, despite surviving?

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Again sin is something that causes a rift between an individual and God. Explain how that concept is possible by detailing how an action you perform could cause a rift between yourself.

LJS9502_basic

By your will...

A mother, her newborn, and myself are hiding from enemy soldiers who have invaded our city in my basement. There is only one exit, which leads to the outside. The four-month old begins crying out of control without any way to stop her crying. If she doesn't stop the soldiers outside will hear and kill us, but if the crying were to stop the soldiers would leave the immediate area. The only way to stop her crying is to kill the child. The mother can't do it, so it's up to me.

If I were to choose to kill the child, wouldn't this cause a rift within myself, or anyone else for that matter, despite surviving?

I guess he means an inner "conflict" (notice the quotation marks I used). Like a conflict between cold reason with deeper emotions or something like that. Thats what I understood.

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

I guess he means an inner "conflict" (notice the quotation marks I used). Like a conflict between cold reason with deeper emotions or something like that. Thats what I understood.

LJS9502_basic

I dont quite agree with this though. I think it has flaws as a course of thinking.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

I guess he means an inner "conflict" (notice the quotation marks I used). Like a conflict between cold reason with deeper emotions or something like that. Thats what I understood.

Teenaged

I dont quite agree with this though. I think it has flaws as a course of thinking.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]An inner conflict does not denote sin. Means you wish you didn't have to do what you did even though you recognize it as the only course of action. Of course there are ways to quiet a child without killing it....seems a bit extreme.

LJS9502_basic

I dont quite agree with this though. I think it has flaws as a course of thinking.

When one is coming in conflict with himself its not sinning.

But we have established (as I saw in the discussion) that sin means if one is in conflict with god (what god has ordered and what god has set as right).

Therefore by definition if god is the one having an inner conflict then he would have a conlict with himself, but since he IS god then he is having a conflict with god (himself) thus sinning.

Tycoonmike, I hope I got it right. :P

But as I said I dont agree anyways, because god is supposed to be omniscient thus having no inner conflicts which inner conflicts arise from not knowing whats best to do 100% and obviously god does know (according to several interpretations of course).

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

And thus comes the definition of omnipotence I have given:

"A diety that is able to do absolutely anything, EVENTHE LOGICALLY IMPOSSIBLE."

This is the only definition of omnipotence I accept because it is the only one that can reconcile the inconsistencies of the Bible in reference to God Almighty.

tycoonmike

Then, going back to the original premise, can you define what God does?

No let me deploy that better.

When one is coming in conflict with himself its not sinning.

But we have established (as I saw in the discussion) that sin means if one is in conflict with what god has ordered and what god has set as right.

Therefore by definition if god is the one having an inner conflict then he would have a conlict with himself, but since he IS god then he is comin conflict with god (himself) thus sinning.

Tycoonmike, I hope I got it right. :P

But as I said I dont agree anyways, because god is supposed to be omniscient thus having no inner conflicts which inner conflicts arise from not knowing whats best to do 100% and obviously god does know (according to several interpretations of course).

Teenaged

Understand that?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

No let me deploy that better.

When one is coming in conflict with himself its not sinning.

But we have established (as I saw in the discussion) that sin means if one is in conflict with what god has ordered and what god has set as right.

Therefore by definition if god is the one having an inner conflict then he would have a conlict with himself, but since he IS god then he is comin conflict with god (himself) thus sinning.

Tycoonmike, I hope I got it right. :P

But as I said I dont agree anyways, because god is supposed to be omniscient thus having no inner conflicts which inner conflicts arise from not knowing whats best to do 100% and obviously god does know (according to several interpretations of course).

LJS9502_basic

Understand that?

Ok lets go again....

A man comes in conflict with himself but this is not a sin (as I said before also)

Now lets establish what sin is: when one comes in conflict with god (put simply)

Now if god is placed in the equation...

God comes in conflict with himself (but the part of the equation "himself" is god, therefore we have a conflict with god which as we difined above is sin), thus it is a sin.

Put crudely: god has come in conflict with god (because he came in conflict with himself who is GOD)

(RED) I didnt say that. :)

Ok lets go again....

A man comes in conflict with himself but this is not a sin (as I said before also)

Now lets establish what sin is: when one comes in conflict with god (put simply)

Now if god is placed in the equation...

God comes in conflict with himself (but the part of the equation "himself" is god, therefore we have a conflict with god which as we difined above is sin), thus it is a sin.

Put crudely: god has come in conflict with god (because he came in conflict with himself who is GOD)

Teenaged

You are saying conflict is the same as sin which I don't agree with.

Here's the theological definition again....

In theology sin is....

!. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.

2. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

(RED) I didnt say that. :)

Ok lets go again....

A man comes in conflict with himself but this is not a sin (as I said before also)

Now lets establish what sin is: when one comes in conflict with god (put simply)

Now if god is placed in the equation...

God comes in conflict with himself (but the part of the equation "himself" is god, therefore we have a conflict with god which as we difined above is sin), thus it is a sin.

Put crudely: god has come in conflict with god (because he came in conflict with himself who is GOD)

LJS9502_basic

You are saying conflict is the same as sin which I don't agree with.

Conflict becomes sin when god is involved right? When a person comes in conflict with god right?

But if god has an inner conflict then he comes in conflict with himself, who is GOD therefore god is in conflict with god.

Tycoonmike get over here and clear this out ok!!!! :x

I am not saying thaaaaaaat!!! :cry: I am saying conflict with god!!!!!

Conflict becomes sin when god is involved right? When a person comes in conflict with god right?

But if god has an inner conflict then he comes in conflict with himself, who is GOD therefore god is in conflict with god.

Tycoonmike get over here and clear this out ok!!!! :x

Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]No I was asking if you understood my example.:|

You are saying conflict is the same as sin which I don't agree with.

LJS9502_basic

Conflict becomes sin when god is involved right? When a person comes in conflict with god right?

But if god has an inner conflict then he comes in conflict with himself, who is GOD therefore god is in conflict with god.

Tycoonmike get over here and clear this out ok!!!! :x

I told you that I dont agree with what tycoonmike says (or what I understood he said).

I am not saying it is. :P

I told you that I dont agree with what tycoonmike says (or what I understood he said).

Teenaged

And using the theological definition of sin I would like the TC to explain how his topic is possible or has merit.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

I am not saying it is. :P

I told you that I dont agree with what tycoonmike says (or what I understood he said).

LJS9502_basic

And using the theological definition of sin I would like the TC to explain how his topic is possible or has merit.

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]

[QUOTE="tocool340"]

Gah, can we please stop saying this! If it's according to the scriptures, who's to say he wasn't tainted by humans needs? Who's to say that the one making the scriptures purposely made it seem like he was a perfect sinless creature, when in fact, he could have sin behind peoples back?

My answer is yes. I do not believe that someone can truly be able to go through life without sinning at least once, even if it's a small lie.....

blackregiment

I don't accept that premise. There are over 4000 Old Testament manuscripts or fragments. 25,000 New Testament manuscripts or fragments, thousands of lectionaries, numerous early Bible versions, and thousands of writings from the early Church leaders, that support the text we have today. In fact, the entire New Testament can be reconstructed, minus about a dozen verses from the writing of the early Church leaders, alone. This evidence supports the text we have today to an over 95% accuracy. The differences are mainly in punctuation and spelling and none of the differences affect any important Christian doctrine.

Here is some more information.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-corrupted.html

Sorry I can't accept a biased anti-Catholic web site as giving accurate evidence. It either either represents all Christians or no Christians - you can't pick and choose denominations.iowastate

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Again sin is something that causes a rift between an individual and God. Explain how that concept is possible by detailing how an action you perform could cause a rift between yourself.

LJS9502_basic

By your will...

A mother, her newborn, and myself are hiding from enemy soldiers who have invaded our city in my basement. There is only one exit, which leads to the outside. The four-month old begins crying out of control without any way to stop her crying. If she doesn't stop the soldiers outside will hear and kill us, but if the crying were to stop the soldiers would leave the immediate area. The only way to stop her crying is to kill the child. The mother can't do it, so it's up to me.

If I were to choose to kill the child, wouldn't this cause a rift within myself, or anyone else for that matter, despite surviving?

Yes, my code of morality.

Yes, my code of morality.

tycoonmike

If he existed, yes he did, he was just a man like any other... Darth-Caedus

My answer is 'no'; I do not believe He did. According to the Scriptures...
(Hebrews 4:14-15) - "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. {15} For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

Naturally, some would disagree with me. If so, what are your reasons to believe that way?
Please Note: This topic's purpose is evangelism. Please keep the discussion around Christian/religious based topics; i.e. God, the Bible, Creation vs. Evolution, etc., and, of course, the poll question. Thank you.
In Christ,
Crushmaster.

Crushmaster

It impossible to know..... the MEN who wrote the bible could have lied you know....i will go with yes he did sin because he was a human thats what we do....

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Yes, my code of morality.

LJS9502_basic

The question wasn't whether or not I'd do it, the question was to name a situation that could cause a rift with myself and I have done so. If I were to choose to kill the child, I would cause a rift with myself. Question answered.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Yes, my code of morality.

tycoonmike

The question wasn't whether or not I'd do it, the question was to name a situation that could cause a rift with myself and I have done so. If I were to choose to kill the child, I would cause a rift with myself. Question answered.

[QUOTE="iowastate"] Sorry I can't accept a biased anti-Catholic web site as giving accurate evidence. It either either represents all Christians or no Christians - you can't pick and choose denominations.LJS9502_basic

Again you persist in making untrue statements. I have not said that Catholics are not Christians. You are confusing me with another poster, probably intentionally due to your continued hostility towards Biblical Christians. What I have said is that there is a difference in Biblical Christianity and the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. Even the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges this. Denominations do not matter. What is important is that one places their total trust and faith in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for their salvation, and not in works or any Church, or man-made traditions.

I have also offered to debate you on this issue three different times and you have not accepted the challenge. The offer is still open. Make that four challenges now.

I have said on numerous occasions that there are many well-intentioned Catholics that love and are sincerely trying to serve the Lord.

Stop making things up.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]Then I don't think you'd actually do it.

LJS9502_basic

The question wasn't whether or not I'd do it, the question was to name a situation that could cause a rift with myself and I have done so. If I were to choose to kill the child, I would cause a rift with myself. Question answered.

Even though to do so would involve disobeying my code or morals and, by extension, myself?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="iowastate"] Sorry I can't accept a biased anti-Catholic web site as giving accurate evidence. It either either represents all Christians or no Christians - you can't pick and choose denominations.blackregiment

Again you persist in making untrue statements. I have not said that Catholics are not Christians. You are confusing me with another poster, probably intentionally due to your continued hostility towards Biblical Christians. What I have said is that there is a difference in Biblical Christianity and the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. Even the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges this. Denominations do not matter. What is important is that one places their total trust and faith in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for their salvation, and not in works or any Church, or man-made traditions.

I have also offered to debate you on this issue three different times and you have not accepted the challenge. The offer is still open. Make that four challenges now.

I have said on numerous occasions that there are many well-intentioned Catholics that love and are sincerely trying to serve the Lord.

Stop making things up.

Isnt that eisogesis there BR? Because I thought you resent eisogesis....... >_>

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="iowastate"] Sorry I can't accept a biased anti-Catholic web site as giving accurate evidence. It either either represents all Christians or no Christians - you can't pick and choose denominations.blackregiment

Again you persist in making untrue statements. I have not said that Catholics are not Christians. You are confusing me with another poster, probably intentionally due to your continued hostility towards Biblical Christians. What I have said is that there is a difference in Biblical Christianity and the teachings and traditions of the Roman Catholic Church. Even the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges this. Denominations do not matter. What is important is that one places their total trust and faith in Christ alone and His finished work on the cross for their salvation, and not in works or any Church, or man-made traditions.

I have also offered to debate you on this issue three different times and you have not accepted the challenge. The offer is still open. Make that four challenges now.

I have said on numerous occasions that there are many well-intentioned Catholics that love and are sincerely trying to serve the Lord.

Stop making things up.

I've debated you in these threads. How strange that you think that doesn't count. I bolded what I consider to be a condescending comment.

Edit: By the way I only feel apathy toward Biblical Christians...so stop making things up.

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

[QUOTE="BumFluff122"]it is a well known fact that the scriptures have been edited by human hands. See the dead sea scrolls and the changes made to them.

iowastate

I don't accept that premise. There are over 4000 Old Testament manuscripts or fragments. 25,000 New Testament manuscripts or fragments, thousands of lectionaries, numerous early Bible versions, and thousands of writings from the early Church leaders, that support the text we have today. In fact, the entire New Testament can be reconstructed, minus about a dozen verses from the writing of the early Church leaders, alone. This evidence supports the text we have today to an over 95% accuracy. The differences are mainly in punctuation and spelling and none of the differences affect any important Christian doctrine.

Here is some more information.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-corrupted.html

Here's a novel thought. no one asked you to "accept" anything.

That is your choice. You can also participate in the logical fallacies of poisoning the well and guilt by association if you choose to as well.

Have a nice day.