Do you believe in god? or nothing? what's wrong?

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Revinh"]

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Just to let you know battlefront23 every action that we take is based on selfishness. Religion and self-sacrifice are not exceptions.Revinh

no

Do explain.

After you.

The long answer is here

The short answer is that altruism is beneficial to a social species thus even unselfish acts are selfish.

I don't really believe any religion is 'superior'. Everyone can have their own view on how the world was created, etc. Here's a new little word a few people might like to learn: tolerance. Just because it's your belief, it doesn't mean it's the best and all the rest are wrong. In my opinion there is no 'right' or proved religion.

On another note, I don't see how someone can call an athiest evil, immoral, or anything of the like. Just because athiests don't believe in an unproved superior being, that doesn't mean they're corrupt. They're possible of being just as good people, with very good morals and the like. Religion may promote peace, love, morals etc but it doesn't necessarily CREATE them. At all.

[QUOTE="Revinh"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Revinh"]

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Just to let you know battlefront23 every action that we take is based on selfishness. Religion and self-sacrifice are not exceptions.domatron23

no

Do explain.

After you.

The long answer is here

The short answer is that altruism is beneficial to a social species thus even unselfish acts are selfish.

What? How is that an answer? And altuism being beneficial doesn't make it selfish. I think I get what you mean but it seems you're just adding selfishness into it.

[QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Revinh"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Revinh"]

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Just to let you know battlefront23 every action that we take is based on selfishness. Religion and self-sacrifice are not exceptions.Revinh

no

Do explain.

After you.

The long answer is here

The short answer is that altruism is beneficial to a social species thus even unselfish acts are selfish.

What? How is that an answer? And altuism being beneficial doesn't make it selfish. I think I get what you mean but it seems you're just adding selfishness into it.

It means that by helping people you have something to gain intrinsicly, because ultimately they will help you or repay the favour or continue to contribute to society and indirectly help you. It's not consciously being selfish, however there is that expectation that something will be returned to you.

Say if you're trapped on an island with a few people and you all have to help each other to survive. If one person injures themselves, you're of course going to help aid him and nurture him until he recovers. If you let him die, then you're minus one teammate. If you help him to survive, then you don't lose anyone and increase your own chances of survival.

To further the education of Revinh and battlefront23 here is an essay that I wrote about selfishness in human nature. It's to do with evolution but I'm not interested in starting an evolution vs creation thread so just read it in light of my claim that human behaviour is selfish.

"A common argument leveled against evolutionary theories of human nature is that natural selection demands nothing less than absolute selfishness from each individual, but we live in a world with many observable acts of altruism. The controversy and confusion over this criticism lies within the contrasting meanings of the words selfishness and altruism. A convincing argument can be made for the hypothesis that an individual with selfish genes will inevitably be a selfish person. However its truth is entirely dependant on what way you define a selfish person, in terms of his genes, or himself. Similarly a convincing argument can be constructed which shows that the evolutionary theory of group selection proves that human beings are predominantly unselfish. Yet once again it reaches a contrasting conclusion when the meaning of altruism is looked upon at a different angle.

Richard Dawkins noted very early on, in his book The Selfish Gene, that "Universal love and the welfare of the species as a whole are concepts which simply do not make evolutionary sense"[1]. This is because natural selection demands that only the fittest individuals will survive in an environment with finite resources. It follows by reason that altruism, an act which "increases the fitness of others and decreases the fitness of the actor"[2], will not survive in a world governed by evolution by natural selection. However its opposite, selfishness, will .This leads to the hypothesis that selfish genes produce selfish people.

The argument for the hypothesis that selfish genes produce selfish people is straightforward. It entails that an individual who displays selfish characteristics is more likely to be successful at producing fit offspring. Therefore if a persons genes are selfish so too is their behaviour. Dawkins evidently came to the same conclusion as he says "gene selfishness will usually give rise to selfishness in individual behaviour"[3]. However if we are to follow this reasoning we must consider if the selfish individual lives more successfully than the unselfish individual. This was first discussed in Plato's Republic when Thrasymachus argued to Socrates that "a just man always comes off worse than an unjust"[4]. We can not use Socrates' refutation of Thrasymachus' claim to draw a conclusion to our argument because it predates the discovery of evolution. However it does highlight the discrepancy in the meanings of the word selfish held between people like Dawkins and people like Plato.

Although Dawkins' "selfishness" and Plato's "injustice" seem to be referring to the same concept, they mean completely different things. Specifically they refer to selfish genes and selfish people. A person who has selfish genes is a person who acts in a way which preserves those genes. But a selfish person is one who prescribes to hedonism and preserves his individual self. For example a person who bears children and ensures that they are fit and able to produce grandchildren is behaving genetically selfish, while a person who diverts all his resources to himself and ensures only his own preservation and comfort is behaving personally selfish. The differences in these meanings of selfishness are significant because they provide contrasting answers to the original hypothesis that selfish genes produce selfish people.

When we examine our original hypothesis in light of the two meanings of selfishness, we find that there are two contrasting answers. An individual who behaves according to their selfish genes would produce many viable children and would thus, by our standard, be more successful than a person who does not. Using this definition of a selfish person as Dawkins did would lead us to believe that our original hypothesis is correct. However an individual who behaves according to their own selfish whims (like the "unjust" men in Plato's Republic) would produce comparatively less viable children and would be less successful. This leads us to the conclusion that our original hypothesis was wrong. Clearly our hypothesis is a subjective matter but it is complicated even further by the question originally posed by Socrates; does the selfish individual live more successfully than the unselfish individual?

While Socrates answered this question in terms of virtue and the soul I will answer it in terms of altruism and evolutionary theory. Specifically I will look at the theory of group selection. Socrates says of injustice (which we shall use interchangeably with selfishness) that, "it makes that which possesses it, firstly incapable of united action; secondly, the enemy of itself, of everything that opposes it and the just"[5]. In short, he realized that cooperative altruistic behaviour was greater than selfish individual behaviour. This is the basis that Darwin's theory of group selection uses for its argument[6]. This sort of relationship between altruists and selfish individuals can be expressed mathematically, where we find out that in a stable population, where the overall fitness is equal between the two groups, there is a majority of altruists (approximately 60%)[7]. We can conclude from this argument that group selection produces a group of predominately altruistic individuals.

This evidence appears to refute our original hypothesis but in fact when we look at it more broadly we realize that it supports it. The confusion, this time, lies in the meaning of altruism. By our earlier definition of altruism, it seems that the individuals in our equation are genuinely unselfish. This may be true on a psychological level but ultimately because their behaviour has indirectly prevented them from being selected against, we must conclude that they are acting selfishly, in the interests of their genes. Therefore we can finally agree with Dawkins' assertion that "gene selfishness will usually give rise to selfishness in individual behaviour" when we regard altruism in evolutionary terms. Furthermore we can also agree with Socrates' claim that the just man (altruist) is more successful than the unjust (selfish individual), when we regard altruism in personal and psychological terms.

When we return to the original criticism that evolutionary theories are inconsistent with actual human behaviour we can conclude that the true inconsistency lies between the individual and his genes. The genes are enslaved to the laws of evolution by natural selection and the individual to his mind, morals and culture. Hence the two must be separated before we can decide just how selfish people are.

Bibliography

Lindsay, A.D, Plato's Republic, (Everyman's library, 1976)

Richards, J.R, Human Nature After Darwin, (Routledge, 2000)

Sober, E & Wilson, D, Unto Others The Evolution And Psychology of Unselfish Behavior (Harvard University Press, 1998)

[1] Richard, Dawkins The Selfish Gene (1989), pg-2-3 quoted from J.R, Richards, Human Nature After Darwin (2000), p-161

[2] Elliot, Sober, Unto Others The Evolution And Psychology of Unselfish Behavior (1998), p-17

[3] Dawkins, pg-2-3 quoted from Richards, p-161

[4] A.D, Lindsay, Plato's Republic, (1976), p-19

[5] Lindsay,pg-29

[6] Charles, Darwin, The Descent of Man, (1871),pg166 quoted in Sober,pg-4

[7] Formula from Sober,pg20,25 population size=100, baseline fitness=10, cost to altruist=-1, benefit to recipient=5, percentage of altruists in population=60% percentage of selfish individuals in population=40% so: altruist 10-1+5(59)/99=11.9797

: selfish individual 10+5(39)/99=12.0202"

The point of all that crap is that even if we don't believe in the afterlife we still have motivation to be an altruist, yet in doing so we are acting selfishly. Thus battlefront's concern that athiests ought to not have reason to be nice is unfounded.

[QUOTE="Revinh"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Revinh"][QUOTE="domatron23"][QUOTE="Revinh"]

[QUOTE="domatron23"]Just to let you know battlefront23 every action that we take is based on selfishness. Religion and self-sacrifice are not exceptions.Red-XIII

no

Do explain.

After you.

The long answer is here

The short answer is that altruism is beneficial to a social species thus even unselfish acts are selfish.

What? How is that an answer? And altuism being beneficial doesn't make it selfish. I think I get what you mean but it seems you're just adding selfishness into it.

It means that by helping people you have something to gain intrinsicly, because ultimately they will help you or repay the favour or continue to contribute to society and indirectly help you. It's not consciously being selfish, however there is that expectation that something will be returned to you.

Say if you're trapped on an island with a few people and you all have to help each other to survive. If one person injures themselves, you're of course going to help aid him and nurture him until he recovers. If you let him die, then you're minus one teammate. If you help him to survive, then you don't lose anyone and increase your own chances of survival.

But the question is, was the act of helping others with the expectation of something in return? Were you saying that all people do it like that? If so, that's not true. If you weren't, then nevermind...carry on...

I'm not reading all that essay, at least not now, and I'm not a big fan of Dawkins.

Anyone read the "Lottery" by Shirley Jackson?

^A great example of this "god" that can maniupliate people

[QUOTE="Zagrius"]Yeah, really. If God existed, I couldn't kill and pillage (among other things) to my heart's content! Therefor, I'm an atheist. Because that's the only reason to be an atheist of course. So I can do bad things. Although, if I lie about my belief in God and claim that I am religious... Why, I'd be even more evil! Hmmm, now there's a thought! And who knows how many other evil atheists might have come up with this scheme before me? Why, your best friends might be atheist in their hearts, and poor, naive, religiously good and trusting person that you are, you'll never know! My heart goes out to you... Or well, it would, if I had one.123625

What if he gave you free will?

But if I believed in God, I wouldn't be able to do those things out of fear of going to Hell. So obviously it's much more convenient to not believe. So I'll go with that. Plus (and this is probably the only serious part of my post), a pre-disposition to commit sins is hardly what I'd call 'free will'.

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="Zagrius"]Yeah, really. If God existed, I couldn't kill and pillage (among other things) to my heart's content! Therefor, I'm an atheist. Because that's the only reason to be an atheist of course. So I can do bad things. Although, if I lie about my belief in God and claim that I am religious... Why, I'd be even more evil! Hmmm, now there's a thought! And who knows how many other evil atheists might have come up with this scheme before me? Why, your best friends might be atheist in their hearts, and poor, naive, religiously good and trusting person that you are, you'll never know! My heart goes out to you... Or well, it would, if I had one.Zagrius

What if he gave you free will?

But if I believed in God, I wouldn't be able to do those things out of fear of going to Hell. So obviously it's much more convenient to not believe. So I'll go with that. Plus (and this is probably the only serious part of my post), a pre-disposition to commit sins is hardly what I'd call 'free will'.

Um i beleive in god and i can still sin....

And yes you have the free will to sin and know its bad.

Um i beleive in god and i can still sin....

And yes you have the free will to sin and know its bad.

123625

You believe in God and still murder and pillage (among other things)? My, you're quite the Christian, aren't you.

And as I said, if you are born with a pre-disposition for sinning, then it's not free will.

[QUOTE="123625"]

Um i beleive in god and i can still sin....

And yes you have the free will to sin and know its bad.

Zagrius

You believe in God and still murder and pillage (among other things)? My, you're quite the Christian, aren't you.

And as I said, if you are born with a pre-disposition for sinning, then it's not free will.

Um god doesnt control my actions... i do, so how is it not free will?

And i could do those things but i won't.

You don't know much about christianity do you?

[QUOTE="Zagrius"][QUOTE="123625"]

Um i beleive in god and i can still sin....

And yes you have the free will to sin and know its bad.

123625

You believe in God and still murder and pillage (among other things)? My, you're quite the Christian, aren't you.

And as I said, if you are born with a pre-disposition for sinning, then it's not free will.

Um god doesnt control my actions... i do, so how is it not free will?

And i could do those things but i won't.

You don't know much about christianity do you?

I feel a quotation war coming.

Um god doesnt control my actions... i do, so how is it not free will?

And i could do those things but i won't.

You don't know much about christianity do you?

123625

It's hard to know about Christianity when you get a general idea from some Christians, which you are then told is complete bull-crap by others. For instance, I recall asking a Christian how come it's fair that everyone is born into sin, and he then told me that that's a load of crap, you aren't born into sin, it's just that once you get older it's impossible for you not to sin (a very "likely" event if free will really existed).

Also, about being born into sin, some Christians said to me that the sin is inherited from Adam & Eve's original sin, while other told me that the sin we're born into is actually that we're a result of sex, which is somehow a sin.

So it's very hard to know what a person believes just because he calls himself a Christian. I just go by what most Christians seem to believe.

For instance, I can guess that you believe that no person can live a whole life without sinning. Now, if there truely was free-will, it would be more than possible for someone not to sin, live a pure life, and die a sinless. But no, some Christians here claim that man has a pre-disposition to sin. If that's true, then there's no free will. If you're pre-disposed to do a certain action rather than another, that's not free will. Just as if Humans are the only creation gifted with free-will, then the Devil was predisposed to rebel against God, and really had no say on the matter. He didn't rebel out of his own will, since he didn't have one.

[QUOTE="123625"]

Um god doesnt control my actions... i do, so how is it not free will?

And i could do those things but i won't.

You don't know much about christianity do you?

Zagrius

It's hard to know about Christianity when you get a general idea from some Christians, which you are then told is complete bull-crap by others. For instance, I recall asking a Christian how come it's fair that everyone is born into sin, and he then told me that that's a load of crap, you aren't born into sin, it's just that once you get older it's impossible for you not to sin (a very "likely" event if free will really existed).

Also, about being born into sin, some Christians said to me that the sin is inherited from Adam & Eve's original sin, while other told me that the sin we're born into is actually that we're a result of sex, which is somehow a sin.

So it's very hard to know what a person believes just because he calls himself a Christian. I just go by what most Christians seem to believe.

For instance, I can guess that you believe that no person can live a whole life without sinning. Now, if there truely was free-will, it would be more than possible for someone not to sin, live a pure life, and die a sinless. But no, some Christians here claim that man has a pre-disposition to sin. If that's true, then there's no free will. If you're pre-disposed to do a certain action rather than another, that's not free will. Just as if Humans are the only creation gifted with free-will, then the Devil was predisposed to rebel against God, and really had no say on the matter. He didn't rebel out of his own will, since he didn't have one.

Eh no, the Devil Satan was given free will, he however abused it and rebelled against god. God gives us all free will and gives us the choice to either follow him or go to hell for ever away from him. Which i think is ironic.

God doesnt choose your actions, you do. Its not gods fault you sin, its your own. Just cause we were born into sin does that mean we have to? No, but unfortunatly all humans sin, which is a result of their own free will and choices. God hates sin so why would he make us sin? That makes no sense.

he doesnt make us sin, the devil does. And if no one chooses our actions, its free will, simple our own choices!

If you want to know the main message of christ, please ask and ill pm you.

Eh no, the Devil Satan was given free will, he however abused it and rebelled against god. God gives us all free will and gives us the choce to either follow him or go to hell for ever away from him. Which i think is ironic.

God doesnt choose your actions, you do. Its not gods fault you sin, its your own. Just cause we were born into sin does that mean we have to? No, but unfortunatly all humans sin, which is a result of their own free will and choices. God hates sin so why would he make us sin? That makes no sense.

he doesnt make us sin, the devil does. And if no one chooses our actions, its free will, simple our own choices!

123625

So the Devil can make us do things?

And ignoring the above, I find it hard to believe that with an entirely free will nobody ever lives a whole life without committing a sin.

But just to clarify. You say then that there is no pre-disposition to sin?

Also, a bonus question: Is there anyone who was given free will, but didn't "abuse" it?

[QUOTE="123625"]

Eh no, the Devil Satan was given free will, he however abused it and rebelled against god. God gives us all free will and gives us the choce to either follow him or go to hell for ever away from him. Which i think is ironic.

God doesnt choose your actions, you do. Its not gods fault you sin, its your own. Just cause we were born into sin does that mean we have to? No, but unfortunatly all humans sin, which is a result of their own free will and choices. God hates sin so why would he make us sin? That makes no sense.

he doesnt make us sin, the devil does. And if no one chooses our actions, its free will, simple our own choices!

Zagrius

So the Devil can make us do things?

And ignoring the above, I find it hard to believe that with an entirely free will nobody ever lives a whole life without committing a sin.

But just to clarify. You say then that there is no pre-disposition to sin?

Also, a bonus question: Is there anyone who was given free will, but didn't "abuse" it?

Time to answer the bonus question with one name. Jesus.

The Devil influences us and trys to make us sin, but in the end its our own free will that does the sin and we are to blame.

We have free will, its how you use it and ignore the temptation of sin.

Time to answer the bonus question with one name. Jesus.

The Devil influences us and trys to make us sin, but in the end its our own free will that does the sin and we are to blame.

We have free will, its how you use it and ignore the temptation of sin.

123625

Jesus doesn't count. That's like asking 'does anyone really know if God exists?' and being told 'God knows'. To clarify my question, did anyone who isn't God who had free-will ever use it for good instead of for awes-er, I mean evil?

[QUOTE="123625"]

Time to answer the bonus question with one name. Jesus.

The Devil influences us and trys to make us sin, but in the end its our own free will that does the sin and we are to blame.

We have free will, its how you use it and ignore the temptation of sin.

Zagrius

Jesus doesn't count. That's like asking 'does anyone really know if God exists?' and being told 'God knows'. To clarify my question, did anyone who isn't God who had free-will ever use it for good instead of for awes-er, I mean evil?

Well Jesus was man, so i don't see how it doesnt count, but whatever.

And no the only man to never sin was Jesus. All men bar the lord and savior have sinned.

Um could you retype the question please. and ill answer it when i can understand it.

Well Jesus was man, so i don't see how it doesnt count, but whatever.

And no the only man to never sin was Jesus. All men bar the lord and savior have sinned.

Um could you retype the question please. and ill answer it when i can understand it.

123625

But Jesus was also God, giving him special perfection benefits. I just find it odd that no being with free will ever remained pure and completely faithful to God, and yet God still thinks it's a good idea and doesn't try creating something new with free will in the hopes that it'll turn out differently (like maybe something such as humans, only without a tree of knowledge between good and evil nearby! Or a talking devil-snake).

So why expect more from us when obviously we can't do better?

[QUOTE="123625"]

Well Jesus was man, so i don't see how it doesnt count, but whatever.

And no the only man to never sin was Jesus. All men bar the lord and savior have sinned.

Um could you retype the question please. and ill answer it when i can understand it.

Zagrius

But Jesus was also God, giving him special perfection benefits. I just find it odd that no being with free will ever remained pure and completely faithful to God, and yet God still thinks it's a good idea and doesn't try creating something new with free will in the hopes that it'll turn out differently (like maybe something such as humans, only without a tree of knowledge between good and evil nearby! Or a talking devil-snake).

So why expect more from us when obviously we can't do better?

So what exactly is your argument? And Jesus was pure and faithfull to god because he had to be a perfect sacrifice for us all, that was Jesus' main purpose. To die for our sins and forgive us when we die. Are you saying Jesus didn't have free will? are you saying he didn't do it because he wanted to? Ask him when you get judged by him thanks.

What do you mean by "Expect more from us"? We're humans and we sin, but we should try not to sin, was all i was saying and we still have free will. You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!

You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!123625

So what exactly is your argument? And Jesus was pure and faithfull to god because he had to be a perfect sacrifice for us all, that was Jesus' main purpose. To die for our sins and forgive us when we die. Are you saying Jesus didn't have free will? are you saying he didn't do it because he wanted to? Ask him when you get judged by him thanks.

What do you mean by "Expect more from us"? We're humans and we sin, but we should try not to sin, was all i was saying and we still have free will. You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!

123625

Okay, so this is what I get from you: We are born into sin (by the way, is this the sin of lust/sex/whatever that makes no sense, or the original sin of Adam & Eve?), but don't have a predisposition to sin. The Devil might try to trick us, but his influence is kind of like a sleazy lawyer-type trying to get us to sign a contract before reading it (though of course he's much better at it). In the end we sign the contract, he doesn't actually take our hand and forces us to do it.

Now, my argument is that Jesus IS God. Obviously he'll be pure, faithful to God (i.e., to himself) and perfect. I just don't see why God expects such great things from us (so much that when we fail him we get punished) when the only being in existence that managed to do such great things with free will was God himself.

[QUOTE="123625"]

So what exactly is your argument? And Jesus was pure and faithfull to god because he had to be a perfect sacrifice for us all, that was Jesus' main purpose. To die for our sins and forgive us when we die. Are you saying Jesus didn't have free will? are you saying he didn't do it because he wanted to? Ask him when you get judged by him thanks.

What do you mean by "Expect more from us"? We're humans and we sin, but we should try not to sin, was all i was saying and we still have free will. You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!

Zagrius

Okay, so this is what I get from you: We are born into sin (by the way, is this the sin of lust/sex/whatever that makes no sense, or the original sin of Adam & Eve?), but don't have a predisposition to sin. The Devil might try to trick us, but his influence is kind of like a sleazy lawyer-type trying to get us to sign a contract before reading it (though of course he's much better at it). In the end we sign the contract, he doesn't actually take our hand and forces us to do it.

Now, my argument is that Jesus IS God. Obviously he'll be pure, faithful to God (i.e., to himself) and perfect. I just don't see why God expects such great things from us (so much that when we fail him we get punished) when the only being in existence that managed to do such great things with free will was God himself.

"For god so loved the world, he gave his only misbegotten son. So to those who beleive in him shall not perish but shall have eternal life."

God doesnt expect great things of us. He loves us so much he gave his only son up for our sin and our mistakes. You have a free ticket to god should you accept him. And if you don't beleive in him, you will be put in hell away from him forever which is what you want.

God knows we sin, but he won't stop us from doing it. Because that wouldnt be free will would it now? He sent Jesus for us and who shoud ever beleive in him will go to god. Its so simple and so loving it should make you cry.

The god of christianity doesnt want works from you. He wants faith beleif and commitment and he is the only god to ask this.

[QUOTE="123625"] You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!SolidSnake35

If god comes down and tells us not to sin. Is it free will?

God lets us choose what we do, even if he knows it will happen, he doesnt intervene otherwise its not freewill.

The god of christianity doesnt want works from you. He wants faith beleif and commitment and he is the only god to ask this.123625

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"] You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!123625

If god comes down and tells us not to sin. Is it free will?

God lets us choose what we do, even if he knows it will happen, he doesnt intervene otherwise its not freewill.

[QUOTE="123625"]The god of christianity doesnt want works from you. He wants faith beleif and commitment and he is the only god to ask this.SolidSnake35

He does nothing to help those who struggle? God wants commited followers and if you don't want to beleive in him. You will go to hell away from a god that never existed, which is what you wanted.

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"] You're just saying because we are born into sin, we have no free will. But yet we choose our own actions by ourselves no? Sure we may be influenced but its still our own choices! Free will!SolidSnake35

If god comes down and tells us not to sin. Is it free will?

God lets us choose what we do, even if he knows it will happen, he doesnt intervene otherwise its not freewill.

But we still choose our actions. God doesnt tell us what to do. THus we have free will.

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"]The god of christianity doesnt want works from you. He wants faith beleif and commitment and he is the only god to ask this.123625

He does nothing to help those who struggle? God wants commited followers and if you don't want to beleive in him. You will go to hell away from a god that never existed, which is what you wanted.

But we still choose our actions. God doesnt tell us what to do. THus we have free will.123625

So blindly following a religion makes you smart and questioning it makes you ignorant? I don't believe in God, because of the problem of suffering, because science has already disproven much of the Bible and various other reasons which I won't list now.james28893

My religion recquires questioning, infact god tells us to explore all options. And whats wrong with suffering? can it not bring good?

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"]The god of christianity doesnt want works from you. He wants faith beleif and commitment and he is the only god to ask this.SolidSnake35

He does nothing to help those who struggle? God wants commited followers and if you don't want to beleive in him. You will go to hell away from a god that never existed, which is what you wanted.

But we still choose our actions. God doesnt tell us what to do. THus we have free will.123625

If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.

All your saying is that we have a predestined path, but it doesnt change the fact that is was our own free will and actions that determined your outcome. We still have free will, there is no way to doubt that.

If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.123625

i don't believe in the 'god' in the bible or in any other religion. it's organised religion. i think there's a divine presence in our universe that the many of us havn't been told about or even taught about let alone experienced it.Fragkat

By Divine do you mean intellegent creator or something else?

But it's not that I don't want to be with God, it's that I don't believe there is a God. Can you show me a person who believes God exists, yet still doesn't want to be with him?

And Jesus would hardly make for a good sacrifice, considering that it took no effort to produce him. God could easily make a million Jesus'.

Oh, another bonus question: What was the whole deal with Jesus asking God why He forsook him when he was put on the cross*?

* Edited, yeesh, mistaking a cross for a stake.

[QUOTE="james28893"]So blindly following a religion makes you smart and questioning it makes you ignorant? I don't believe in God, because of the problem of suffering, because science has already disproven much of the Bible and various other reasons which I won't list now.123625

My religion recquires questioning, infact god tells us to explore all options. And whats wrong with suffering? can it not bring good?

Guy at my school who recently graduated just crashed down a flight of stairs, he is now almost completely brain dead, what good will that bring the world :|.

[QUOTE="123625"]If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.SolidSnake35

Why? Are there contradictions? Do you not find it amazing how forty different authors can write 60 books and they all work with one another? Take in mind these authors were often years apart and countries.

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead? Do you find it odd that christianity has grown over 2.2 billion followers over 2000 years? and that the bible said it would be spread to across the world?

Take a look around and question some of these things. Look into it and study it, i implore you.

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="james28893"]So blindly following a religion makes you smart and questioning it makes you ignorant? I don't believe in God, because of the problem of suffering, because science has already disproven much of the Bible and various other reasons which I won't list now.james28893

My religion recquires questioning, infact god tells us to explore all options. And whats wrong with suffering? can it not bring good?

Guy at my school who recently graduated just crashed down a flight of stairs, he is now almost completely brain dead, what good will that bring the world :|.

Um whats your point? thats a horrible tradgedy indeed but what point does it make?

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead?

123625

Huh? Why am I supposed to be dead now?

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"]If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.123625

Why? Are there contradictions? Do you not find it amazing how forty different authors can write 60 books and they all work with one another? Take in mind these authors were often years apart and countries.

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead? Do you find it odd that christianity has grown over 2.2 billion followers over 2000 years? and that the bible said it would be spread to across the world?

Take a look around and question some of these things. Look into it and study it, i implore you.

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"]If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.SolidSnake35

Why? Are there contradictions? Do you not find it amazing how forty different authors can write 60 books and they all work with one another? Take in mind these authors were often years apart and countries.

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead? Do you find it odd that christianity has grown over 2.2 billion followers over 2000 years? and that the bible said it would be spread to across the world?

Take a look around and question some of these things. Look into it and study it, i implore you.

[QUOTE="123625"]

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead?

Zagrius

Huh? Why am I supposed to be dead now?

Are you a Jewish?

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"]If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.123625

Why? Are there contradictions? Do you not find it amazing how forty different authors can write 60 books and they all work with one another? Take in mind these authors were often years apart and countries.

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead? Do you find it odd that christianity has grown over 2.2 billion followers over 2000 years? and that the bible said it would be spread to across the world?

Take a look around and question some of these things. Look into it and study it, i implore you.

Lots of other religions were persecuted and have faded into non-existence. And also something I've always wondered, one of the gospels, can't remember which, was written 100 years after Jesus lived, yet it is expected to be accurate?

[QUOTE="123625"]

[QUOTE="SolidSnake35"][QUOTE="123625"]If you want gods help to beleive go read the bible and explore everything and bit of evidence and arguments for it. And see what makes most sense.SolidSnake35

Why? Are there contradictions? Do you not find it amazing how forty different authors can write 60 books and they all work with one another? Take in mind these authors were often years apart and countries.

Do you find it odd that the Jewish people have survived to this very day, when they should of been dead? Do you find it odd that christianity has grown over 2.2 billion followers over 2000 years? and that the bible said it would be spread to across the world?

Take a look around and question some of these things. Look into it and study it, i implore you.

Some pretty amazing coincidences huh.