Do you believe in God our heavenly father? Yes/No and why not.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Why couldn't an omnipotent Being not sustain Himself? Why would He need a beginning or an end? Why would He need a creator?

He wouldn't.

SpaceMoose

It's the oft-used creationist argument of, "How could the universe / people / whatever just exist? It's too complex," etc. Ergo if something that complex requires a creator, the creator's existence requires a creator, ad infinitum.

However, it was not really a good argument to make in response to Sparklebarkle's particular reply there. I think he just made it out of habit.

I wasn't using that argument.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"]Archaeological evidence for the Bible:

http://www.biblehistory.net/

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

http://www.biblicalarcheology.net/

Scientific Foreknowledge:

http://www.creationists.org/foreknowledge.html

Fulfilled Prophecy:
http://www.100prophecies.org/Silver_Dragon17

What about the fact that God created the Sun and the stars after he created light? What about Carbon dating which proves that the world is older than the Bible says it is? How can God be omnipotent and omnibenevolent and allow the existence of evil?

God is light. He can be the light before the sun, you know.

Carbon dating doesn't prove anything, nor does the Bible give any specific date for the age of the Earth.:|

God allows the existance of evil because if He were to wipe it away from the face of the Earth, He would have to kill all the Humans, which He loves more than anything, and He does not want to do that. So, He waits.

1) You're are just trying to get rid of an inconsistancy with a bad metaphor, no that does not work.

2) Carbon dating can prove there are objects older than the 6-8 thousand year old Earth from a literal translation of the Bible (Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date.htm)

3) If God was all powerful then why would he make humans evil in the first place? Why did he create and sustain Hell, a place in theory that serves only the purpose of causing suffering to the creation of an all loving being?

Plus why do you base beliefs on a book written by people who were said to be inspired by God. If I was around then I could have said I had seen a vision of God telling me that we should all set our hair on fire on Wednesdays for example, then providing I was of a religeous and sane background and what I was saying was at least vaguely consistant with current scriptures, it could have been put in.

Im not saying they were lying, but if the writters spent their whole lives devoted to God, they are bound to have had a few nonsecal dreams about him that they put in.

...Carbon dating doesn't prove anything,

Silver_Dragon17

LOL.

nor does the Bible give any specific date for the age of the Earth.:|

God allows the existance of evil because if He were to wipe it away from the face of the Earth, He would have to kill all the Humans, which He loves more than anything, and He does not want to do that. So, He waits.

Silver_Dragon17

Why did he make the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden?

Apparently just to be a prick But I guess if you are "all poweful" you just get to declare any stupid thing you do as "right" by definition. :lol:

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"]Archaeological evidence for the Bible:

http://www.biblehistory.net/

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

http://www.biblicalarcheology.net/

Scientific Foreknowledge:

http://www.creationists.org/foreknowledge.html

Fulfilled Prophecy:
http://www.100prophecies.org/Silver_Dragon17

What about the fact that God created the Sun and the stars after he created light? What about Carbon dating which proves that the world is older than the Bible says it is? How can God be omnipotent and omnibenevolent and allow the existence of evil?

God is light. He can be the light before the sun, you know.

Carbon dating doesn't prove anything, nor does the Bible give any specific date for the age of the Earth.:|

God allows the existance of evil because if He were to wipe it away from the face of the Earth, He would have to kill all the Humans, which He loves more than anything, and He does not want to do that. So, He waits.

1) You're are just trying to get rid of an inconsistancy with a bad metaphor, no that does not work.

2) Carbon dating can prove there are objects older than the 6-8 thousand year old Earth from a literal translation of the Bible (Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date.htm)

3) If God was all powerful then why would he make humans evil in the first place? Why did he create and sustain Hell, a place in theory that serves only the purpose of causing suffering to the creation of an all loving being?

Plus why do you base beliefs on a book written by people who were said to be inspired by God. If I was around then I could have said I had seen a vision of God telling me that we should all set our hair on fire on Wednesdays for example, then providing I was of a religeous and sane background and what I was saying was at least vaguely consistant with current scriptures, it could have been put in.

Im not saying they were lying, but if the writters spent their whole lives devoted to God, they are bound to have had a few nonsecal dreams about him that they put in.

Outbreak191

That's not a metaphor.:|

I am aware of what carbon-dating can do. I said the Bible does not give an age.

God didn't make humans evil.:| God created Hell when humans became evil.

Maybe, and maybe not. I don't know. But I have no reason to believe so.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"]Archaeological evidence for the Bible:

http://www.biblehistory.net/

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

http://www.biblicalarcheology.net/

Scientific Foreknowledge:

http://www.creationists.org/foreknowledge.html

Fulfilled Prophecy:
http://www.100prophecies.org/ItsBriskBaby

What about the fact that God created the Sun and the stars after he created light? What about Carbon dating which proves that the world is older than the Bible says it is? How can God be omnipotent and omnibenevolent and allow the existence of evil?

God is light. He can be the light before the sun, you know.

Carbon dating doesn't prove anything, nor does the Bible give any specific date for the age of the Earth.:|

God allows the existance of evil because if He were to wipe it away from the face of the Earth, He would have to kill all the Humans, which He loves more than anything, and He does not want to do that. So, He waits.

But then why couldn't he have made us all good ? Itwould destroy the necessity for creating a universe and waiting thousands of years for something that he could make himself.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

...Carbon dating doesn't prove anything,

SpaceMoose

LOL.

nor does the Bible give any specific date for the age of the Earth.:|

God allows the existance of evil because if He were to wipe it away from the face of the Earth, He would have to kill all the Humans, which He loves more than anything, and He does not want to do that. So, He waits.

Silver_Dragon17

Why did he make the forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden?

Apparently just to be a prick But I guess if you are "all poweful" you just get to declare any stupid thing you do as "right" by definition. :lol:

God created the Tree (if it was a real tree) because He wanted to see if Adam would obey Him. A test, if you will.

3) If God was all powerful then why would he make humans evil in the first place? Why did he create and sustain Hell, a place in theory that serves only the purpose of causing suffering to the creation of an all loving being?

Outbreak191

Here is the nonsense answer you are going to get: Because he gave people free will. Apparently human decisions can be based on some undefined entity that exists outside of the laws of God's supposed creation, dubbed by the official church doctrine as "free will." I'm actually not sure if "free will" is mentioned in the Bible anywhere, but various Christian sects seem to have a lot of beliefs which don't even have as little to back them up as the Bible.

Actually, since the Bible seems to assert that everything is predetermined (which actually makes sense to me, but not for the same reasons), that would seem to imply that we do not, in fact, have "free will," whatever that means.

God created the Tree (if it was a real tree) because He wanted to see if Adam would obey Him. A test, if you will.

Silver_Dragon17

Yeah, so, like I said, to be a prick.

But then why couldn't he have made us all good ? Itwould destroy the necessity for creating a universe and waiting thousands of years for something that he could make himself.Outbreak191

God DID make humans good. "And He looked upon all He had made, and saw that IT WAS GOOD." Humanity made humanity bad, not God.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

God created the Tree (if it was a real tree) because He wanted to see if Adam would obey Him. A test, if you will.

SpaceMoose

Yeah, so, like I said, to be a prick.

Well, that's your opinion. In my opinion, it was being smart.;)

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]1) You're are just trying to get rid of an inconsistancy with a bad metaphor, no that does not work.

2) Carbon dating can prove there are objects older than the 6-8 thousand year old Earth from a literal translation of the Bible (Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date.htm)

3) If God was all powerful then why would he make humans evil in the first place? Why did he create and sustain Hell, a place in theory that serves only the purpose of causing suffering to the creation of an all loving being?

Plus why do you base beliefs on a book written by people who were said to be inspired by God. If I was around then I could have said I had seen a vision of God telling me that we should all set our hair on fire on Wednesdays for example, then providing I was of a religeous and sane background and what I was saying was at least vaguely consistant with current scriptures, it could have been put in.

Im not saying they were lying, but if the writters spent their whole lives devoted to God, they are bound to have had a few nonsecal dreams about him that they put in.

Silver_Dragon17

That's not a metaphor.:|

I am aware of what carbon-dating can do. I said the Bible does not give an age.

God didn't make humans evil.:| God created Hell when humans became evil.

Maybe, and maybe not. I don't know. But I have no reason to believe so.

Where did evil come from then? If God created everything and evil exists thenit either spontaneously came into existance (which if you believe allows for the possibility of life coming into existence on its own) or he created it. Even so, why does he allow it to continue to exist.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

3) If God was all powerful then why would he make humans evil in the first place? Why did he create and sustain Hell, a place in theory that serves only the purpose of causing suffering to the creation of an all loving being?

SpaceMoose

Here is the nonsense answer you are going to get: Because he gave people free will. Apparently human decisions can be based on some undefined entity that exists outside of the laws of God's supposed creation, dubbed by the official church doctrine as "free will." I'm actually not sure if "free will" is mentioned in the Bible anywhere, but various Christian sects seem to have a lot of beliefs which don't even have as little to back them up as the Bible.

Actually, since the Bible seems to assert that everything is predetermined (which actually makes sense to me, but not for the same reasons), that would seem to imply that we do not, in fact, have "free will," whatever that means.

I already gave an answer to his question.:|

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"][QUOTE="ItsBriskBaby"][QUOTE="sparklebarkle"]Archaeological evidence for the Bible:

http://www.biblehistory.net/

http://www.facingthechallenge.org/arch2.php

http://www.biblicalarcheology.net/

Scientific Foreknowledge:

http://www.creationists.org/foreknowledge.html

Fulfilled Prophecy:
http://www.100prophecies.org/ItsBriskBaby

What about the fact that God created the Sun and the stars after he created light? What about Carbon dating which proves that the world is older than the Bible says it is? How can God be omnipotent and omnibenevolent and allow the existence of evil?

God is light. He can be the light before the sun, you know.

Carbon dating doesn't prove anything, nor does the Bible give any specific date for the age of the Earth.:|

God allows the existance of evil because if He were to wipe it away from the face of the Earth, He would have to kill all the Humans, which He loves more than anything, and He does not want to do that. So, He waits.

But that's what you don't understand, god is omnipotent. That means he knows everything. To him there is no reason to weed out the wicked from the ones that love him because he already knows who does and who will. Let's say you're in god's position and a person is born. You know that person is going to commit mass murder and rape before he takes down 10 other people in a gun fight before he dies. Yet you let him live to do these things. And your argument is "so that he has the choice to do it"?

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

God created the Tree (if it was a real tree) because He wanted to see if Adam would obey Him. A test, if you will.

Silver_Dragon17

Yeah, so, like I said, to be a prick.

Well, that's your opinion. In my opinion, it was being smart.;)

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Where did evil come from then? If God created everything and evil exists thenit either spontaneously came into existance (which if you believe allows for the possibility of life coming into existence on its own) or he created it. Even so, why does he allow it to continue to exist.

Outbreak191

Please point out the verse that says God made everything.:| God didn't make evil; Humans did.

And if evil spontaneously came into existance, that isn't life. Evil is not an organic life-form.

He allows it to continue to exist because, as I have already stated, if He were to wipe out evil permanently (which He plans to do), then He would also have to wipe out many humans. Sinse He loves Humans more than angels, He does not want to do that. There is a quote by C.S. Lewis about this that I can't remember.

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Outbreak191

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

There is also the fact that a changing infinity is a paradox. God cannot interact with us because by doing so he would be changing and infinity cannot change.

For example how can something that exists at every point in time simultaneously, still be able to do intricate actions like creating floods in specific time periods?

Well, that's your opinion. In my opinion, it was being smart.;)

Silver_Dragon17

Anyway, so are you saying that God didn't know what the outcome would be?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Well, that's your opinion. In my opinion, it was being smart.;)

SpaceMoose

Anyway, so are you saying that God didn't know what the outcome would be?

No, I'm saying Adam didn't.;)

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

God created the Tree (if it was a real tree) because He wanted to see if Adam would obey Him. A test, if you will.

SpaceMoose

Yeah, so, like I said, to be a prick.

A test is a form of experimentation. why would god experiment with anything? didn't he already know the outcome? :D

No, I'm saying Adam didn't.;)

Silver_Dragon17

So did God know what the outcome would be before he made Adam?

There is also the fact that a changing infinity is a paradox. God cannot interact with us because by doing so he would be changing and infinity cannot change.

For example how can something that exists at every point in time simultaneously, still be able to do intricate actions like creating floods in specific time periods?

Outbreak191

Because God doesn't change. The Bible says He doesnt change (I think). As for your flood argument, how would He be changing?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No, I'm saying Adam didn't.;)

SpaceMoose

So did God know what the outcome would be before he made Adam?

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

[QUOTE="Stealth-Gunner"]

[QUOTE="sparklebarkle"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]and where did the creator come from?Silver_Dragon17

How does that explain how he was created...

Why couldn't an omnipotent Being not sustain Himself? Why would He need a beginning or an end? Why would He need a creator?

He wouldn't.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Silver_Dragon17

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

How would that make him an evil dictator? He can only be evil in comparison to something greater than he which apparantly doesn't exist.

If God knew Adam would eat from the tree of knowledge, then why didn't he just give him knowledge on his creation? It would save time and effort. Likewise what was the point in creating a Garden of Eden if he knew that the whole purpose of it would be too tained to exist there.

If God created us to single out the good people, then why couldn't he just create us ready made good? It gives the same result surely.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No, I'm saying Adam didn't.;)

Silver_Dragon17

So did God know what the outcome would be before he made Adam?

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

There is also the fact that a changing infinity is a paradox. God cannot interact with us because by doing so he would be changing and infinity cannot change.

For example how can something that exists at every point in time simultaneously, still be able to do intricate actions like creating floods in specific time periods?

Silver_Dragon17

Because God doesn't change. The Bible says He doesnt change (I think). As for your flood argument, how would He be changing?

God created the flood by willing it, there is a change in state between willing a flood and not willing a flood. So then God is either constantly willing world destroying floods or he has never willed a flood before. Change is not just physical....

No, and if he is he is a punk and a major jerk-assLouieV13

you should really be careful how U talk....your ignorance is through the roof

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

Silver_Dragon17

No, he didn't leave the choice to Adam. He determined the choice since he already knew what the choice would be when he created him. Knowing that man would "sin," God could have easily said, "Forget it, I'm not creating anyone." After all, I assume that if humans have "free will," then God does. Therefore, knowing what the outcome would be, God deliberately created sin. Logic > dogma.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Outbreak191

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

How would that make him an evil dictator? He can only be evil in comparison to something greater than he which apparantly doesn't exist.

If God knew Adam would eat from the tree of knowledge, then why didn't he just give him knowledge on his creation? It would save time and effort. Likewise what was the point in creating a Garden of Eden if he knew that the whole purpose of it would be too tained to exist there.

If God created us to single out the good people, then why couldn't he just create us ready made good? It gives the same result surely.

But that wouldn't be free will; It would be rivalrying Nazicism. That's how it would make God an evil dictator: He says "Okay, you are going to do this and that and you have absolutely no choice." That isn't my idea of a good God.

God did make them knowledgeable, but not of good and evil. They knew things in terms of intelligence, but not morality, or humility, or sin. They knew what they should do, but they didn't do it.

I already answered your third point.

Here's a simple proof that shows that an all knowing god cannot exist if free will does.

1. The Christian god is assumed to be all knowing.

2. Humans are claimed to have free will.

3. During and before creation, the Christian god knew everything that would happen at every point throughout the course of human history.

4. Meaning every event that has ever occured was known and intended from the beginning, free will would not exist because of this, leaving only the illusion of choice.

This implies that either the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

SpaceMoose

No, he didn't leave the choice to Adam. He determined the choice since he already knew what the choice would be when he created him. Knowing that man would "sin," God could have easily said, "Forget it, I'm not creating anyone." After all, I assume that if humans have "free will," then God does. Therefore, knowing what the outcome would be, God deliberately created sin. Logic > dogma.

God di not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Silver_Dragon17

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

if there is a god, why are there so many different religions? are the others wrong? because I'm sure people could use similar arguments to the one your using for judaism, islam, hinduism etc etc.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

There is also the fact that a changing infinity is a paradox. God cannot interact with us because by doing so he would be changing and infinity cannot change.

For example how can something that exists at every point in time simultaneously, still be able to do intricate actions like creating floods in specific time periods?

Outbreak191

Because God doesn't change. The Bible says He doesnt change (I think). As for your flood argument, how would He be changing?

God created the flood by willing it, there is a change in state between willing a flood and not willing a flood. So then God is either constantly willing world destroying floods or he has never willed a flood before. Change is not just physical....

Ahh, but recently there has been controvercy on whether the Flood happened at all. Also, God, being omnipotent, could probably change if He wanted to.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Mr_sprinkles

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

if there is a god, why are there so many different religions? are the others wrong? because I'm sure people could use similar ones to the one your using for judaism, islam, hinduism etc etc.

The view I take is that people didn't like the rules God set out, and just broke away and made their own religions to control people, or whatever.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

Silver_Dragon17

No, he didn't leave the choice to Adam. He determined the choice since he already knew what the choice would be when he created him. Knowing that man would "sin," God could have easily said, "Forget it, I'm not creating anyone." After all, I assume that if humans have "free will," then God does. Therefore, knowing what the outcome would be, God deliberately created sin. Logic > dogma.

God di not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

Logic > blind belief

i really feel bad for everyone in this thread that does not believe in the existence of God...good luck,because you're going to need it

Here's a simple proof that shows that an all knowing god cannot exist if free will does.

1. The Christian god is assumed to be all knowing.

2. Humans are claimed to have free will.

3. During and before creation, the Christian god knew everything that would happen at every point throughout the course of human history.

4. Meaning every event that has ever occured was known and intended from the beginning, free will would not exist because of this, leaving only the illusion of choice.

This implies that either the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not.

yoshi-lnex

Things that happen happen because of our free choices. God knows what will happen, but He didn't go "This will happen" to make it happen. He just lets things play out, interfering occasionally, and lets us live with our choices.

God did not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

Silver_Dragon17

Yes, if you know what the outcome of your action will be, and you do that action, you made it happen.

God, according to you, knew that Adam would "sin," if he made him.

God made him anyway.

How then did God not create sin? It's like if I somehow know that if I have a kid, he will grow up to be a serial killer. So I go and have a kid anyway. By your reasoning, it isn't my fault in any way because the decision to kill is his, even though I knowingly, deliberately create the situation where it will happen.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

yoshi-lnex

No, he didn't leave the choice to Adam. He determined the choice since he already knew what the choice would be when he created him. Knowing that man would "sin," God could have easily said, "Forget it, I'm not creating anyone." After all, I assume that if humans have "free will," then God does. Therefore, knowing what the outcome would be, God deliberately created sin. Logic > dogma.

God di not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

Logic > blind belief

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

Here's a simple proof that shows that an all knowing god cannot exist if free will does.

1. The Christian god is assumed to be all knowing.

2. Humans are claimed to have free will.

3. During and before creation, the Christian god knew everything that would happen at every point throughout the course of human history.

4. Meaning every event that has ever occured was known and intended from the beginning, free will would not exist because of this, leaving only the illusion of choice.

This implies that either the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not.

Silver_Dragon17

Things that happen happen because of our free choices. God knows what will happen, but He didn't go "This will happen" to make it happen. He just lets things play out, interfering occasionally, and lets us live with our choices.

Something to keep in mind next time you here about a child having been murdered on the news. God intended it before everything was even created.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

God did not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

SpaceMoose

Yes, if you know what the outcome of your action will be, and you do that action, you made it happen.

God, according to you, knew that Adam would "sin," if he made him.

God made him anyway.

How then did God not create sin? It's like if I somehow know that if I have a kid, he will grow up to be a serial killer. So I go and have a kid anyway. By your reasoning, it wasn't my fault in any way because the decision to kill was his, even though I knowingly, deliberately created the situation where it would happen.

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Silver_Dragon17

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

How would that make him an evil dictator? He can only be evil in comparison to something greater than he which apparantly doesn't exist.

If God knew Adam would eat from the tree of knowledge, then why didn't he just give him knowledge on his creation? It would save time and effort. Likewise what was the point in creating a Garden of Eden if he knew that the whole purpose of it would be too tained to exist there.

If God created us to single out the good people, then why couldn't he just create us ready made good? It gives the same result surely.

But that wouldn't be free will; It would be rivalrying Nazicism. That's how it would make God an evil dictator: He says "Okay, you are going to do this and that and you have absolutely no choice." That isn't my idea of a good God.

God did make them knowledgeable, but not of good and evil. They knew things in terms of intelligence, but not morality, or humility, or sin. They knew what they should do, but they didn't do it.

I already answered your third point.

But as I said, if he knew they would gain knowledge of morality anyway, why go through the process of creating a tree and telling an ignorant human not to eat from it when you could implant the knowledge anyway?

And if something is not your idea of a God does it surely mean he does not exist? How do you know you even have free will anyway?

If God defines morality then surely he could've made dictatorship a good thing and disoberying orders from him a sin. Yu may look on that as bad but that is only because it is the general view of current society which you have adopted, but that itself cannot define any action as evil.

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"]

But then why couldn't he have just made Adam obedient? Plus if he is omniscient then surely he would already know the answer to the test without conducting it.....

Silver_Dragon17

He did make Adam obediant, but if He made him so obediant to the point that he just followed like a robot, God would be an evil dictator.

Maybe God knew, maybe not. Besides, I didn't say the test was for God. . .;)

if there is a god, why are there so many different religions? are the others wrong? because I'm sure people could use similar ones to the one your using for judaism, islam, hinduism etc etc.

The view I take is that people didn't like the rules God set out, and just broke away and made their own religions to control people, or whatever.

odd, that means the one true religion is hinduism. it was there first, after all.