Do you believe in God our heavenly father? Yes/No and why not.

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Silver_Dragon17

His whole point is arguing against the assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

Here's a simple proof that shows that an all knowing god cannot exist if free will does.

1. The Christian god is assumed to be all knowing.

2. Humans are claimed to have free will.

3. During and before creation, the Christian god knew everything that would happen at every point throughout the course of human history.

4. Meaning every event that has ever occured was known and intended from the beginning, free will would not exist because of this, leaving only the illusion of choice.

This implies that either the Christian god does not exist, or free will does not.

yoshi-lnex

Things that happen happen because of our free choices. God knows what will happen, but He didn't go "This will happen" to make it happen. He just lets things play out, interfering occasionally, and lets us live with our choices.

Something to keep in mind next time you here about a child having been murdered on the news. God intended it before everything was even created.

God created Man. Then He said "Everything is left to you". Which means God put humans on the Earth, knowing what would happen, but He did not will them to happen, male them happen, or determine them to happen; He just knew that they would happen. Man did all the rest.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

God did not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

Silver_Dragon17

Yes, if you know what the outcome of your action will be, and you do that action, you made it happen.

God, according to you, knew that Adam would "sin," if he made him.

God made him anyway.

How then did God not create sin? It's like if I somehow know that if I have a kid, he will grow up to be a serial killer. So I go and have a kid anyway. By your reasoning, it wasn't my fault in any way because the decision to kill was his, even though I knowingly, deliberately created the situation where it would happen.

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

Why not kill him on birth if you already know he will become a serial killer, that way you will protect others of your creation from suffering.

And don't say God cannot see the actions of free will, because that denies the characteristic of omniscience which is at the foundation of the Christian concept of God.

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

Silver_Dragon17

No, why would I intentionally have a child in the first place, knowing that? You skipped the most important step.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

SpaceMoose

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

[QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Uh-hu. God left the choice to Adam, and left the consequences to Adam as well. The test of faith wasn't for God, but for Adam, just as the test of faith wasn't for God, but for Abraham.

Silver_Dragon17

No, he didn't leave the choice to Adam. He determined the choice since he already knew what the choice would be when he created him. Knowing that man would "sin," God could have easily said, "Forget it, I'm not creating anyone." After all, I assume that if humans have "free will," then God does. Therefore, knowing what the outcome would be, God deliberately created sin. Logic > dogma.

God di not create sin.:| And God does not determine the outcome either.;) God knows what will happen, but that doesn't mean He said it will happen. Logic > Atheism.

Logic > blind belief

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

It says in genesis that god created everything, what else created things? Are you implying there are multiple gods within Christian mythology?

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

SpaceMoose

No, why would I intentionally have a child in the first place, knowing that? You skipped the most important step.

Because it's your child. Be honest, even with that knowledge, would you kill the kid? Your kid? It doesn't really matter, because God, who loves humans, would not.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Silver_Dragon17

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Kinda like how a human can create a timebomb knowing what would happen if he placed it in a public place.

The man didn't cause the death, the bomb did.

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Silver_Dragon17

And what determines what humans do? Okay, let me skip a step. What determines what the decisions of your "free will" will be?

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

Silver_Dragon17

No, why would I intentionally have a child in the first place, knowing that? You skipped the most important step.

Because it's your child. Be honest, even with that knowledge, would you kill the kid? Your kid? It doesn't really matter, because God, who loves humans, would not.

You cannot love that which doesn't exist.

The Christian god is supposidly omnipotent, meaning he could create something which did not exist :|. Knowing what would happen, he created man, knowing all events that would follow, meaning choice would not exist.

It says in genesis that god created everything, what else created things? Are you implying there are multiple gods within Christian mythology?

yoshi-lnex

Yes, He COULD create something that did not exist, but what He COULD do and what He DID are two completely seperate things. He knew the events that would follow would follow from the man's choices! How many times do I have to say this? God knows the choice and what happens, but He does not make the choice, nor does He set the choice in. I'm getting dizzy from the circles.

Genesis says "Gods made the Heavens and the Earth". How does that constitute as everything?:|

No, I am not implying multiple gods, and lol, mythology.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

Silver_Dragon17

No, why would I intentionally have a child in the first place, knowing that? You skipped the most important step.

Because it's your child. Be honest, even with that knowledge, would you kill the kid? Your kid? It doesn't really matter, because God, who loves humans, would not.

Because it's your child. Be honest, even with that knowledge, would you kill the kid? Your kid? It doesn't really matter, because God, who loves humans, would not.

Silver_Dragon17

That's an interesting denial trick there. I keep asking why you would get pregnant / get someone pregnant in the first place knowing that, and you keep on talking about killing the child.

Oh, please tell me you know about the birds and the bees. Pretty please...

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

Outbreak191

No, why would I intentionally have a child in the first place, knowing that? You skipped the most important step.

Because it's your child. Be honest, even with that knowledge, would you kill the kid? Your kid? It doesn't really matter, because God, who loves humans, would not.

You cannot love that which doesn't exist.

The kid would have to exist for you to know what it would do.:|

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Silver_Dragon17

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

But God created Humans which he gave the capacity to create evil. Therefore God did create evil indirectly by your logic.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Silver_Dragon17

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Oi! could you stop explaining what god might be like if he was there, and start explaining why the christianity is the one true faith and why the hindus are just making it up. I'm dying to know. I want to see how you can argue that your imaginary friend is real while theirs is not.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

SpaceMoose

And what determines what humans do? Okay, let me skip a step. What determines what the decisions of your "free will" will be?

Nothing. That would be random. But God would know the result. Know them, but not determine them.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Well, let's say you knew it would happen, and you knew every moment of his life. You would raise him anyway, because you love him, you would give him rules, you would enforce those rules and tell him that others would enforce them, and wwhen he came to be a serial killer out of his own choice, then he would be killed at death row or something because he ignored the rules.

Silver_Dragon17

No, why would I intentionally have a child in the first place, knowing that? You skipped the most important step.

Because it's your child. Be honest, even with that knowledge, would you kill the kid? Your kid? It doesn't really matter, because God, who loves humans, would not.

You cannot love that which doesn't exist.

The kid would have to exist for you to know what it would do.:|

Why? Omniscience means knowing everything, future, present and past. If you believe in free will then you believe that the future is an infinite possibility of events, so by knowing the future, one must know every possibility. Therefore if something has the potential to exist, he must already know it and any further event caused by it.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Outbreak191

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

But God created Humans which he gave the capacity to create evil. Therefore God did create evil indirectly by your logic.

But He wouldn't be the creator of evil; Humans would.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Silver_Dragon17

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

But God created Humans which he gave the capacity to create evil. Therefore God did create evil indirectly by your logic.

But He wouldn't be the creator of evil; Humans would.

Then why not make humans incapable of creating evil if you are all powerful and all loving?

Why? Omniscience means knowing everything, future, present and past. If you believe in free will then you believe that the future is an infinite possibility of events, so by knowing the future, one must know every possibility. Therefore if something has the potential to exist, he must already know it and any further event caused by it.Outbreak191

We weren't talking about the person having omniscience.

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere. Let us say you were like that as well. (Btw, God doesn't get people pregnant, with the exception of Mary) Then what I said before would probably apply.

Also, one theory is that God knows all of the POSSIBLE outcomes, but just lets the humans decide their individual outcome. I have abandoned this theory, though.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Outbreak191

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

But God created Humans which he gave the capacity to create evil. Therefore God did create evil indirectly by your logic.

But He wouldn't be the creator of evil; Humans would.

Then why not make humans incapable of creating evil if you are all powerful and all loving?

Then why not make humans incapable of creating evil if you are all powerful and all loving?

Outbreak191

Because that would not be free will, and we go back to the dictator thing. I can't keep up with you people!

Yes, He COULD create something that did not exist, but what He COULD do and what He DID are two completely seperate things. He knew the events that would follow would follow from the man's choices! How many times do I have to say this? God knows the choice and what happens, but He does not make the choice, nor does He set the choice in. I'm getting dizzy from the circles.

Genesis says "Gods made the Heavens and the Earth". How does that constitute as everything?:|

No, I am not implying multiple gods, and lol, mythology.

Silver_Dragon17

The Christian god isn't very nice is he?

and lol, by definition Christianity is a myth. myths; stories that a particular culture believes to be true and that use the supernatural to interpret natural events and to explain the nature of the universe and humanity

Sounds like Christianity to me.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Mr_sprinkles

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Oi! could you stop explaining what god might be like if he was there, and start explaining why the christianity is the one true faith and why the hindus are just making it up. I'm dying to know. I want to see how you can argue that your imaginary friend is real while theirs is not.

aww, why don't you reply? :(

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]Why? Omniscience means knowing everything, future, present and past. If you believe in free will then you believe that the future is an infinite possibility of events, so by knowing the future, one must know every possibility. Therefore if something has the potential to exist, he must already know it and any further event caused by it.Silver_Dragon17

We weren't talking about the person having omniscience.

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere. Let us say you were like that as well. (Btw, God doesn't get people pregnant, with the exception of Mary) Then what I said before would probably apply.

Also, one theory is that God knows all of the POSSIBLE outcomes, but just lets the humans decide their individual outcome. I have abandoned this theory, though.

But which is the more loving action, stopping a baby being born that will kill many of your creation or letting the baby live because you love it. If you choose the second option then you are favouring one person over a greater number of others which is not omnibenevolence. So according to this there is either no mass murder, God is not omnibenevolent or God does not exist. Pick one.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="yoshi-lnex"]

Yes, He COULD create something that did not exist, but what He COULD do and what He DID are two completely seperate things. He knew the events that would follow would follow from the man's choices! How many times do I have to say this? God knows the choice and what happens, but He does not make the choice, nor does He set the choice in. I'm getting dizzy from the circles.

Genesis says "Gods made the Heavens and the Earth". How does that constitute as everything?:|

No, I am not implying multiple gods, and lol, mythology.

yoshi-lnex

The Christian god isn't very nice is he?

Huh? I'm getting a headache.

He knew what would happen, but He made people anyway, thus letting those things happen. Would you rather God didn't make us at all?

Sounds to me like you're angry with God for not existing.:|

Nothing. That would be random. But God would know the result. Know them, but not determine them.

Silver_Dragon17

There are so many things wrong with than answer, I don't even know where to begin.

Okay, they would not be random FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE, because you just said he knows that the outcome will be. Therefore, from the perspective of God it is predtermined. If God knows what the outcome of every "random" event will be, how the hell is it random? If you roll dice and know that they are going to come up seven, it's no longer "random." Random is merely a perceptual limitation anyway.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Silver_Dragon17

And what determines what humans do? Okay, let me skip a step. What determines what the decisions of your "free will" will be?

Nothing. That would be random. But God would know the result. Know them, but not determine them.

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Mr_sprinkles

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Oi! could you stop explaining what god might be like if he was there, and start explaining why the christianity is the one true faith and why the hindus are just making it up. I'm dying to know. I want to see how you can argue that your imaginary friend is real while theirs is not.

aww, why don't you reply? :(

Of course not, he is a fundamentalist christian and it is a well known fact they ignore all questions they can't answer.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]Why? Omniscience means knowing everything, future, present and past. If you believe in free will then you believe that the future is an infinite possibility of events, so by knowing the future, one must know every possibility. Therefore if something has the potential to exist, he must already know it and any further event caused by it.Outbreak191

We weren't talking about the person having omniscience.

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere. Let us say you were like that as well. (Btw, God doesn't get people pregnant, with the exception of Mary) Then what I said before would probably apply.

Also, one theory is that God knows all of the POSSIBLE outcomes, but just lets the humans decide their individual outcome. I have abandoned this theory, though.

But which is the more loving action, stopping a baby being born that will kill many of your creation or letting the baby live because you love it. If you choose the second option then you are favouring one person over a greater number of others which is not omnibenevolence. So according to this there is either no mass murder, God is not omnibenevolent or God does not exist. Pick one.

Or, God loves all of them, including the serial killer, and there is such a thing as death. Maybe it was their time to die? Also, maybe one of the people who was going to die would be the parent of another, far-worse mass-murderer? Ever think about that? Maybe God uses a bad thing to make good things happen.

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Outbreak191

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Oi! could you stop explaining what god might be like if he was there, and start explaining why the christianity is the one true faith and why the hindus are just making it up. I'm dying to know. I want to see how you can argue that your imaginary friend is real while theirs is not.

aww, why don't you reply? :(

Of course not, he is a fundamentalist christian and it is a well known fact they ignore all questions they can't answer.

I have already said that I cannot keep up with everybody here. Give me a freakin' break.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

yoshi-lnex

And what determines what humans do? Okay, let me skip a step. What determines what the decisions of your "free will" will be?

Nothing. That would be random. But God would know the result. Know them, but not determine them.

There is a difference between knowing what will happen and making it happen.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Nothing. That would be random. But God would know the result. Know them, but not determine them.

SpaceMoose

There are so many things wrong with than answer, I don't even know where to begin.

Okay, they would not be random FROM GOD'S PERSPECTIVE, because you just said he knows that the outcome will be. Therefore, from the perspective of God it is predtermined. If God knows what the outcome of every "random" event will be, how the hell is it random? If you roll dice and know that they are going to come up seven, it's no longer "random." Random is merely a perceptual limitation anyway.

Because it's random from OUR perspective. If you roll the dice and know it will turn up seven, then it appears VERY random to others watching you roll the dice.

[QUOTE="Mr_sprinkles"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"][QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

No He didn't. Fallacy. How could God create something that did not exist? Unless He knew it would happen, and Man created it. Again, give me the verse that says God created EVERYTHING.

Mr_sprinkles

His whole point is arguing agains tthe assertion that God created everything. So are you saying that it is NOT your belief that God created everything?

YES!!!

The Bible doesn't say God created everything! It says God created the Heavens and the Earth, along with all of its creatures, including humans. God did not create sin, or evil, or any of that; HUMANS DID.

Oi! could you stop explaining what god might be like if he was there, and start explaining why the christianity is the one true faith and why the hindus are just making it up. I'm dying to know. I want to see how you can argue that your imaginary friend is real while theirs is not.

aww, why don't you reply? :(

Why do you believe your imaginary big bang theory is true and that all religion is false?

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere.

Silver_Dragon17

Okay, you just ignored my question entirely. Here is the scenario again:

You are a human.

You know, for whatever reason, that if you get someone pregnant that child will grow up to be a serial killer. YOU HAVE NOT YET GOTTEN ANYONE PREGNANT.

You decide that you will get someone pregnant anyway.

How are you not responsible for the murders that result?

.....

And now how much more would your blame be amplified if you were "all-powerful?"

Because it's random from OUR perspective. If you roll the dice and know it will turn up seven, then it appears VERY random to others watching you roll the dice.

Silver_Dragon17

But your perspective doesn't matter. I know what the outcome will be if I roll the dice, so therefore if I decide to roll the dice at all, I am deciding to roll a seven. It's my decision, 100%.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere.

SpaceMoose

Okay, you just ignored my question entirely. Here is the scenario again:

You are a human.

You know, for whatever reason, that if you get someone pregnant that child will grow up to be a serial killer. YOU HAVE NOT YET GOTTEN ANYONE PREGNANT.

You decide that you will get someone pregnant anyway.

How are you not responsible for the murders that result?

.....

And now how much more would your blame be amplified if you were "all-powerful?"

I'll answer in a second, but here's another one: You know that if you get somebody pregnant, they will grow up to be the next mother Teresa. If you stop it, how bad would you look?

If you knew somebody was going to be a serial killer if you got someone pregnant, but got them pregnant anyway, then that probably means that you knew thatthe person was going to make a very positive impact on somebody's life before or even after becoming one, and this positive impact outweighs the negative.

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Because it's random from OUR perspective. If you roll the dice and know it will turn up seven, then it appears VERY random to others watching you roll the dice.

SpaceMoose

But your perspective doesn't matter. I know what the outcome will be if I roll the dice, so therefore if I decide to roll the dice at all, I am deciding to roll a seven. It's my decision, 100%.

But you aren't doing it for you. You are doing it to make it look like you rolled a dice at random and it randomly came up heads for other people to see.

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

[QUOTE="Outbreak191"]Why? Omniscience means knowing everything, future, present and past. If you believe in free will then you believe that the future is an infinite possibility of events, so by knowing the future, one must know every possibility. Therefore if something has the potential to exist, he must already know it and any further event caused by it.Silver_Dragon17

We weren't talking about the person having omniscience.

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere. Let us say you were like that as well. (Btw, God doesn't get people pregnant, with the exception of Mary) Then what I said before would probably apply.

Also, one theory is that God knows all of the POSSIBLE outcomes, but just lets the humans decide their individual outcome. I have abandoned this theory, though.

But which is the more loving action, stopping a baby being born that will kill many of your creation or letting the baby live because you love it. If you choose the second option then you are favouring one person over a greater number of others which is not omnibenevolence. So according to this there is either no mass murder, God is not omnibenevolent or God does not exist. Pick one.

Or, God loves all of them, including the serial killer, and there is such a thing as death. Maybe it was their time to die? Also, maybe one of the people who was going to die would be the parent of another, far-worse mass-murderer? Ever think about that? Maybe God uses a bad thing to make good things happen.

I guess God doesn't love the victims families then because he's putting them through a lot of grief for the sake of letting one person who had the potential not to exist, exist and wreak the suffering.

But again all this come downto the argumentthat God could have made humans without the capacity to murder. Free will is not an issue as it can be limited and expanded. As humans we cannot do whatever we want in whatever circumstance for example I cannot fly into heaven and shoot God. This demonstrates a lack of complete free will which by your previous messages defines God as an evil dictator.

If you think about it, the Christian God is already a dictator. He forces people to praise and serve him, in return they get rewarded. However if they turn against him they are punished for eternity. If Hitler achieved world domination, I cannot see him being any worse.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

All right, say you get somebody pregnant, but cannot (or choose not) to help it. God is up there, and He knows what will happen, but He does not interfere.

Silver_Dragon17

Okay, you just ignored my question entirely. Here is the scenario again:

You are a human.

You know, for whatever reason, that if you get someone pregnant that child will grow up to be a serial killer. YOU HAVE NOT YET GOTTEN ANYONE PREGNANT.

You decide that you will get someone pregnant anyway.

How are you not responsible for the murders that result?

.....

And now how much more would your blame be amplified if you were "all-powerful?"

I'll answer in a second, but here's another one: You know that if you get somebody pregnant, they will grow up to be the next mother Teresa. If you stop it, how bad would you look?

If you knew somebody was going to be a serial killer if you got someone pregnant, but got them pregnant anyway, then that probably means that you knew thatthe person was going to make a very positive impact on somebody's life before or even after becoming one, and this positive impact outweighs the negative.

I'm gonna be so simple....

think a bit and u will know that there's god who made things that works together , not a random creation....

(BTW my english language isn't very good to explain more , sry)

But you aren't doing it for you. You are doing it to make it look like you rolled a dice at random and it randomly came up heads for other people to see.

Silver_Dragon17

Well, I'm going to ignore DICE coming up HEADS. :lol:

Anyway, you basically just acknowleged that free will does not exist from God's perspective. I'm done for now.

[QUOTE="SpaceMoose"][QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

Because it's random from OUR perspective. If you roll the dice and know it will turn up seven, then it appears VERY random to others watching you roll the dice.

Silver_Dragon17

But your perspective doesn't matter. I know what the outcome will be if I roll the dice, so therefore if I decide to roll the dice at all, I am deciding to roll a seven. It's my decision, 100%.

But you aren't doing it for you. You are doing it to make it look like you rolled a dice at random and it randomly came up heads for other people to see.

It's like wrestling.