Do You Think All Roads Lead To God? (Poll)

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] So if God cannot lie, does that mean he is not omnipotent?Lansdowne5

Who says God can't lie? A couple of humans? If God is omnipotent, then It can lie.

Funnily enough, you have just caught yourself in one of the contradictions of the Bible. How can God be omnipotent, as the Bible says, and not lie, as the Bible says?

I am talking of God, not God of the Bible/Torah/Qur'an (as it is the same God throughout, though known by three different names), or God of the Bhagavad Gita, or the God of the Vedas/Upanishads.

I'm not going to post the full quotes on here, so I'll just post the passages from the Bible:

Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2; 1 Kings 8:22-27; Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 102:25-27; Revelation 22:13

All of which state God to be either infinite or eternal, thus omnipotent.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] And please do tell me, where in the Bible does it say God is omnipotent?Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"][QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] And please do tell me, where in the Bible does it say God is omnipotent?Lansdowne5

What is infinite but a synonym for omnipotent?

And besides, the fact of the matter is that you have admitted that the Bible says that God is omnipotent. Now comes the kicker: If God is omnipotent, then can It lie?

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Who says God can't lie? A couple of humans? If God is omnipotent, then It can lie.

Funnily enough, you have just caught yourself in one of the contradictions of the Bible. How can God be omnipotent, as the Bible says, and not lie, as the Bible says?

tycoonmike

I am talking of God, not God of the Bible/Torah/Qur'an (as it is the same God throughout, though known by three different names), or God of the Bhagavad Gita, or the God of the Vedas/Upanishads.

I'm not going to post the full quotes on here, so I'll just post the passages from the Bible:

Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2; 1 Kings 8:22-27; Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 102:25-27; Revelation 22:13

All of which state God to be either infinite or eternal, thus omnipotent.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]In the KJV, Revelation 19:6.tycoonmike

What is infinite but a synonym for omnipotent?

And besides, the fact of the matter is that you have admitted that the Bible says that God is omnipotent. Now comes the kicker: If God is omnipotent, then can It lie?

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"] I'm talking about the God of the Bible. Who were you talking about......? And please do tell me, where in the Bible does it say God is omnipotent?Lansdowne5

I am talking of God, not God of the Bible/Torah/Qur'an (as it is the same God throughout, though known by three different names), or God of the Bhagavad Gita, or the God of the Vedas/Upanishads.

I'm not going to post the full quotes on here, so I'll just post the passages from the Bible:

Deuteronomy 33:27; Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 90:2; 1 Kings 8:22-27; Jeremiah 23:24; Psalm 102:25-27; Revelation 22:13

All of which state God to be either infinite or eternal, thus omnipotent.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all God. By triune principles, God has a case of split personality. Does that make it three deities? By that logic, wouldn't you agree that Christianity is polytheistic?

What nature? If God is omnipotent, then It has no nature. By saying that It cannot go against Its own nature, you make God out to be finite, because it cannot be the opposite of what It says It is. As such, is the Bible wrong in saying tha God is infinite?

This may help explain God's omnipotence to those that would like to better understand it.

"Question: "Can God sin? If God cannot sin, is He truly omnipotent?""

http://www.gotquestions.org/can-God-sin.html

[REGARDING UNIVERSAL SALVATION]

Basically, Salvation is our eternal deliverence. It is eternal deliverence from God's wrath, i.e - judgement on us because of our sins:"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." - Romans 5:9

Salvation occurs through Faith in Christ. We are truly saved when we believe and put full trust in Jesus, and turn from our sinful past through repentance:"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16

"Universal" salvation is the belief that EVERYONE will be saved. Regardless of works, faith, or whatever you do in your life, it is the assertion that all will, eventually, be saved and thus allowed into Heaven.

This is contrary to so many verses of Scripture, for example, both John 14:6, and Acts 4:12 state that the only way we can be truly saved is through faith in Christ.

One claim of these such "universalists" is that the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible don't teach eternal damnation for those who reject Christ. They say that "eternal" is a mistranslation, and as evidence declare that up to the 3rd century A.D it was commonly taught that punishment in hell was not forever.

There are a few things to consider here:

1. Not all verses which speak of eternal punishment actually translate as "eternal". Some translate as "for the ages of ages", or "forever and ever". They all derive from different states of the word "aion", and granted, on its own it can simply mean a long period of time, or in fact an unspecified length of time.However, just like when examing a written section of our own language, we must take into account the words which surround it in the sentences where eternal damnation is spoken of.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory FOREVER AND EVER. Amen," - 1 Timothy 1:17

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominionFOREVER AND EVER" - Revelation 5:13

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises upFOREVER AND EVER" - Revelation 19:3

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and nightFOREVER AND EVER," - Revelation 20:10

The phrase "forever and ever" in each of the verses above is translated from the phrase "aionas ton aionon" which literally means "ages of ages".If you take "aionas" on its own, it can mean anything ranging from a short period of time to eternity, as demonstrated in other passages of Scripture which use the same word to describe a coming time, or a past time.However, coupled 'with' "aionas" in these instances we have "ton aionon", which there can be no doubt DOES mean eternal. The way we would word it is "in a time [aionas] which will last forever [ton aionon].

2. If Hell is not a place where we will be eternally damned, why is it that verses talk of our body and soul being utterly destroyed? Surely if our body and soul are destroyed, we cannot then enter heaven?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"They will be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9

The person won't be coming back from Hell, their body and soul will be destroyed and they'll be locked in a state of eternal torture forever and ever.

3. If eternal punishment is not taught, does this mean that eternal life is not taught either?

You cannot claim that verses which speak of eternal punishment are wrong, yet claim that verses which speak of eternal life are correct. As I demonstrated in the examples above the same wording is used to refer to everything - eternal damnation, eternal sacrifice, God's eternal nature, and eternal life through Christ.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matthew 25:46

Universal salvation is a false doctrine born out of the hearts of those who wish to conform God's Word to the way of the world. They think God's judgement is too 'harsh' and thus have made God into something He is not. God doesn't go against His own Word, and what His Word says on the subject couldn't be clearer:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." - Acts 4:12

Here is another article that gives some more information that will help one to understand God's omnipotence.

"Question: "Could God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it?""

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-rock-heavy-lift.html

Here is another article that gives some more information that will help one to understand God's omnipotence.

"Question: "Could God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it?""

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-rock-heavy-lift.html

blackregiment

And here's a third article about omnipotence as a concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence

Especially pay attention to definition six. So which is it? If God cannot sin then It is not omnipotent. If God can sin then It is not holy. What was the third route I mentioned? Tao called Tao is not Tao?

[REGARDING UNIVERSAL SALVATION]

Basically, Salvation is our eternal deliverence. It is eternal deliverence from God's wrath, i.e - judgement on us because of our sins:"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." - Romans 5:9

Salvation occurs through Faith in Christ. We are truly saved when we believe and put full trust in Jesus, and turn from our sinful past through repentance:"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16

"Universal" salvation is the belief that EVERYONE will be saved. Regardless of works, faith, or whatever you do in your life, it is the assertion that all will, eventually, be saved and thus allowed into Heaven.

This is contrary to so many verses of Scripture, for example, both John 14:6, and Acts 4:12 state that the only way we can be truly saved is through faith in Christ.

One claim of these such "universalists" is that the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible don't teach eternal damnation for those who reject Christ. They say that "eternal" is a mistranslation, and as evidence declare that up to the 3rd century A.D it was commonly taught that punishment in hell was not forever.

There are a few things to consider here:

1. Not all verses which speak of eternal punishment actually translate as "eternal". Some translate as "for the ages of ages", or "forever and ever". They all derive from different states of the word "aion", and granted, on its own it can simply mean a long period of time, or in fact an unspecified length of time.However, just like when examing a written section of our own language, we must take into account the words which surround it in the sentences where eternal damnation is spoken of.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory FOREVER AND EVER. Amen," - 1 Timothy 1:17

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominionFOREVER AND EVER" - Revelation 5:13

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises upFOREVER AND EVER" - Revelation 19:3

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and nightFOREVER AND EVER," - Revelation 20:10

The phrase "forever and ever" in each of the verses above is translated from the phrase "aionas ton aionon" which literally means "ages of ages".If you take "aionas" on its own, it can mean anything ranging from a short period of time to eternity, as demonstrated in other passages of Scripture which use the same word to describe a coming time, or a past time.However, coupled 'with' "aionas" in these instances we have "ton aionon", which there can be no doubt DOES mean eternal. The way we would word it is "in a time [aionas] which will last forever [ton aionon].

2. If Hell is not a place where we will be eternally damned, why is it that verses talk of our body and soul being utterly destroyed? Surely if our body and soul are destroyed, we cannot then enter heaven?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"They will be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9

The person won't be coming back from Hell, their body and soul will be destroyed and they'll be locked in a state of eternal torture forever and ever.

3. If eternal punishment is not taught, does this mean that eternal life is not taught either?

You cannot claim that verses which speak of eternal punishment are wrong, yet claim that verses which speak of eternal life are correct. As I demonstrated in the examples above the same wording is used to refer to everything - eternal damnation, eternal sacrifice, God's eternal nature, and eternal life through Christ.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matthew 25:46

Universal salvation is a false doctrine born out of the hearts of those who wish to conform God's Word to the way of the world. They think God's judgement is too 'harsh' and thus have made God into something He is not. God doesn't go against His own Word, and what His Word says on the subject couldn't be clearer:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - John 14:6

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." - Acts 4:12


Lansdowne5

[QUOTE="blackregiment"]

Here is another article that gives some more information that will help one to understand God's omnipotence.

"Question: "Could God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it?""

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-rock-heavy-lift.html

tycoonmike

And here's a third article about omnipotence as a concept:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence

Especially pay attention to definition six. So which is it? If God cannot sin then It is not omnipotent. If God can sin then It is not holy. What was the third route I mentioned? Tao called Tao is not Tao?

Sorry, but I don't know this "it" god of whom you speak. You will have to consult someone that knows about this "it" god. The God I serve is the God of the Bible. He is defined by His nature and His revelation to His creation, not by the finite and temporal terms and understanding of man.

Sorry, but I don't know this "it" god of whom you speak. You will have to consult someone that knows about this "it" god. The God I serve is the God of the Bible. He is defined by His nature and His revelation to His creation, not by the finite and temporal terms and understanding of man.

blackregiment

Then why call God "He?" Isn't the word "He" a finite and temporal definition of human masculinity? As I have explained already, I agree that the word "It" isn't a proper definition of God because "It" still implies temporal existence. The best way to speak of God is through silence. However, since we cannot have a religious discussion about God if neither of us is talking, I use the word It as it does not limit God sexually.

Well said. You made some excellent points.

blackregiment

'' if you accept the translation, which others have pointed out might be in question ;)

3picuri3

Just out of curiosity, who brought that up? You can replace the verses I quoted with practically any translation and it would still make sense. Nearly all of them translate the Greek words as "eternal" or "forever and ever". :)

[QUOTE="3picuri3"]

'' if you accept the translation, which others have pointed out might be in question ;)

Lansdowne5

Just out of curiosity, who brought that up? You can replace the verses I quoted with practically any translation and it would still make sense. Nearly all of them translate the Greek words as "eternal" or "forever and ever". :)

Do you Lans, expect in a translation of the Bible from the Koine Greek text to the Moden English to present to you in captions (or in an appendix or anywhere) the exact meaning of such words or provide a full etymological, hermeneutic and linguistic explanation? Or would it rather give the most appropriate possible translation for all readers of the Bible - regardless of amount of study they had on it - to understand? Teenaged

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] Do you Lans, expect in a translation of the Bible from the Koine Greek text to the Moden English to present to you in captions (or in an appendix or anywhere) the exact meaning of such words or provide a full etymological, hermeneutic and linguistic explanation? Or would it rather give the most appropriate possible translation for all readers of the Bible - regardless of amount of study they had on it - to understand? Crushmaster

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] Do you Lans, expect in a translation of the Bible from the Koine Greek text to the Moden English to present to you in captions (or in an appendix or anywhere) the exact meaning of such words or provide a full etymological, hermeneutic and linguistic explanation? Or would it rather give the most appropriate possible translation for all readers of the Bible - regardless of amount of study they had on it - to understand? Crushmaster

So thanks for the info (already posted by BR I think) but I don't really need it, as I have already given explanations as to why those meanings (about aionios and kolasis) are insufficient and not in accordance with an etymologic and a linguistic approach to them which is the best if we are searching for better understanding of words.

that is not comforting at all lol.

You pretty much reiterated the threat, only in a diplomatic manner. If anything, youve turned me off of the idea of god and religion specifically.

Why cant we just be good people and get into heaven regardless? Why is faith such a requirement? Are atheists who's contributions are as great as any saint doomed to hell?

I got an idea: why cant we get five minutes with God? It'd be nice to die (well, not now, but many years from now) and have a seat next to god and be like "Hey man, sorry I didnt believe in you" and then he says "Well, I know you do now, and you are a good soul, so in to heaven you go!"

I mean if God is forgiving and compassionate he wont doom someone to eternal suffering for a stupid technicality (i.e. not "playing by the rules")

mrbojangles25

Damn glitchspot, cut out my message.

*Tennaged*

Do you know koine greek? Like to ask some questions about it, if thats okay ^_^

Well I never said I know Hebrew but I do know Greek (modern Greek as it is my mother language) and I know a lot about Ancient Greek, which is a huge part of my major in university.

So thanks for the info (already posted by BR I think) but I don't really need it, as I have already given explanations as to why those meanings (about aionios and kolasis) are insufficient and not in accordance with an etymologic and a linguistic approach to them which is the best if we are searching for better understanding of words. Teenaged

[QUOTE="mrbojangles25"] that is not comforting at all lol.

You pretty much reiterated the threat, only in a diplomatic manner. If anything, youve turned me off of the idea of god and religion specifically.

Why cant we just be good people and get into heaven regardless? Why is faith such a requirement? Are atheists who's contributions are as great as any saint doomed to hell?

I got an idea: why cant we get five minutes with God? It'd be nice to die (well, not now, but many years from now) and have a seat next to god and be like "Hey man, sorry I didnt believe in you" and then he says "Well, I know you do now, and you are a good soul, so in to heaven you go!"

I mean if God is forgiving and compassionate he wont doom someone to eternal suffering for a stupid technicality (i.e. not "playing by the rules")

Crushmaster

So can you actually justify the idea that we deserve to go to hell for sinning? Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Teenaged"] Well I never said I know Hebrew but I do know Greek (modern Greek as it is my mother language) and I know a lot about Ancient Greek, which is a huge part of my major in university.

So thanks for the info (already posted by BR I think) but I don't really need it, as I have already given explanations as to why those meanings (about aionios and kolasis) are insufficient and not in accordance with an etymologic and a linguistic approach to them which is the best if we are searching for better understanding of words. Crushmaster

I'd be glad to see what it has to say I guess.

Just for the record and because it wouldn't be easy for you to read all of my posts (including the one citing my sources - unfortunately not to be found on-line): The explanation about the word "kolasis" is based on a linguistic analysis that it is available in the book for the lesson of Ancient Greek in the last year of High School in the Theoretic Devision of lessons (where literature lessons are more detailed and hard admittedly), containing two words of seemingly same meaning: the words kolazo and timoro. It has stayed to my memory from then because it amazed me and because it would be important to have in mind in such religious studies.

As for the word aionios this is simply etymologising the word and finding its route to the word aion (modern greek: aionas), which does not mean eternity. It specifically means century or a very long period of time (a possible equivalent would be era or age).

EDIT: And I never said anything in objection to the word zoe (=life)

Do you? I am open to new information as I am more interested in making my knowledge as accurate as possible (I don't like stating wrong things and that's why you will see me for things I am not quite sure to be adding the phrase "I think" or "imo" etc.)

I'd be glad to see what it has to say I guess.

Just for the record and because it wouldn't be easy for you to read all of my posts (including the one citing my sources - unfortunately not to be found on-line): The explanation about the word "kolasis" is based on a linguistic analysis that it is available in the book for the lesson of Ancient Greek in the last year of High School in the Theoretic Devision of lessons (where literature lessons are more detailed and hard admittedly), containing two words of seemingly same meaning: the words kolazo and timoro. It has stayed to my memory from then because it amazed me and because it would be important to have in mind in such religious studies.

As for the word aionios this is simply etymologising the word and finding its route to the word aion (modern greek: aionas), which does not mean eternity. It specifically means century or a very long period of time (a possible equivalent would be era or age).

EDIT: And I never said anything in objection to the word zoe (=life)

Teenaged

Damn glitchspot, cut out my message.

*Tennaged*

Do you know koine greek? Like to ask some questions about it, if thats okay ^_^

123625

Good question never realy thought about it i guess they would.

So can you actually justify the idea that we deserve to go to hell for sinning?

Funky_Llama

Sin is something which lasts forever. So the only suitable punishment would be one that lasted forever also. :)

The modern Greek definition doesn't really matter; what matters is the ancient Greek one.

I'll go see if I can find the dictionaries, and then the word. If I do, I'll let you know some of what they had to say.
EDIT: We may just have one volume of the dictionaries; I'm not sure. I'll have to ask my dad later.

Sorry for any inconvenience; if we do have all of the volumes, I'll look up the word later, and try and let you know.

Crushmaster

I just mentioned the form of the word in modern greek. In fact in modern greek it is narrowed down to meaning nothing more than century (and not a very long period of time equivalent to age or era). The later explanation I gave is possibly the most accurate for Ancient Greek. On second thoughts actualy the owrd aion in Ancient Greek also specifically meant century (a span of 100 years). Because there is a period of time in Ancient Greek history called "Hrisos aion tou Perikleous" (The Golden Century of Perikles) and indeed the duration to take that label was a period of approximately 100 years (to my best of knowledge - I will check it out to be sure sometime later), a century.

Of course it doesn't.

I just mentioned the form of the word in modern greek. In fact in modern greek it is narrowed down to meaning nothing more than century (and not a very long period of time equivalent to age or era). The later explanation I gave is possibly the most accurate for Ancient Greek. On second thoughts actualy the owrd aion in Ancient Greek also specifically meant century (a span of 100 years). Because there is a period of time in Ancient Greek history called "Hrisos aion tou Perikleous" (The Golden Century of Perikles) and indeed the duration to take that label was a period of approximately 100 years (to my best of knowledge - I will check it out to be sure sometime later), a century.

Teenaged

Tell me, Teenaged, what EXACTLY does this mean? -

Good question never realy thought about it i guess they would.

jio-freed

Sin is something which lasts forever.

Lansdowne5

Actually, the wages sin pays is death. When we die, our sins are gone. So, sin is not forever.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Of course it doesn't.

I just mentioned the form of the word in modern greek. In fact in modern greek it is narrowed down to meaning nothing more than century (and not a very long period of time equivalent to age or era). The later explanation I gave is possibly the most accurate for Ancient Greek. On second thoughts actualy the owrd aion in Ancient Greek also specifically meant century (a span of 100 years). Because there is a period of time in Ancient Greek history called "Hrisos aion tou Perikleous" (The Golden Century of Perikles) and indeed the duration to take that label was a period of approximately 100 years (to my best of knowledge - I will check it out to be sure sometime later), a century.

Crushmaster

The word aionios does mean eternal too, but in a higly poetic way. Now such claims I know are not accepted by BR or you (that's why I wouldn't mention it before) thus I cannot go further than that as I was more eager to clear out the word kolasis and the info on aionios was provided by me "by the way".

I would be able to show you how aionios means eternal poeticly, if I could find another word of equivalent relation to its product-words as an analogy. I am struggling but I can't now. Basically my understanding of the word and what it means comes mainly from how it is used in the Ancient Greek texts I have found it in and what was the purpose of using it there, as well as the "colouration" of the word in modern English (basically such words were reintering the Greek language directly from Ancient texts due to the severe cultural damage it was caused by the Ottoman rule, so those words were transferred "as is" and did not undergo a long phase of alterations - alterations which happen in any evolving language). But of course such explanations are (somewhat justifiably) claimed to be mere assertions, and I know that they do not consist what we would say solid proof.

EDIT: I have only though seen the word aionios being used as eternal in modern Greek, probably by the impression the Bible gives and how generally the Bible also helped the cultural advance of modern greeks after the liberation from the Turks and how dpendant they were on religion as a source of encouragement.

Tell me, Teenaged, what EXACTLY does this mean? -

Lansdowne5

"Greatest of the greatest". This would be me trying to elevate one great person above other great.

Transliterated: aionas ton aionon, aionas ton aionon

So in this phrase, either the purpose is to show that the first instance of the word aionas is greater than the rest (so we would have the hymn of a century which is much more important than any who have come to past), or to show that the first instance of the word aionas is of longer duration than the rest (so we would have the hymn of a century which is supposed to be longer than all the centuries to come before it).

Now I translated the above as a phrase alone and I don't know if the meaning is altered slightly in specific context. Besides this phrase (apart from the complicated stresses not present in modern greek) has exactly the form of the words and exactly the kind of word order one would use in modern Greek.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

So can you actually justify the idea that we deserve to go to hell for sinning?

Lansdowne5

Sin is something which lasts forever. So the only suitable punishment would be one that lasted forever also. :)

Even though, according to your belief, if you believe Jesus is your savior you are absolved of sin?

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"] So can you actually justify the idea that we deserve to go to hell for sinning? Crushmaster

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

So can you actually justify the idea that we deserve to go to hell for sinning?

Lansdowne5

Sin is something which lasts forever. So the only suitable punishment would be one that lasted forever also. :)

Actually, the wages sin pays is death. When we die, our sins are gone. So, sin is not forever. dog64

[QUOTE="dog64"] Actually, the wages sin pays is death. When we die, our sins are gone. So, sin is not forever. Crushmaster

Now that's about the least convincing attempt to avoid a question I've ever seen in my life. Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"] Now that's about the least convincing attempt to avoid a question I've ever seen in my life. Crushmaster

Now this is a link to a full explanation of what aionios could have meant. I haven't read all of it yet and probably won't do today because it's already 1 after midnight. Anyway I'll have to read it too (all of it) to use it as arguments or generaly to comment on it. I just found it interesting, that's all.

'covered' seems like a vague description... could you elaborate on what you mean by it? Funky_Llama

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"] 'covered' seems like a vague description... could you elaborate on what you mean by it? Crushmaster

:roll: It was an irrelevant red herring to which we both know the answer, but fine... I'll bite. Yes, I have. Funky_Llama