Do You Think All Roads Lead To God? (Poll)

Well, if you're interested, I had a discussion with Maheo30 earlier about free will, and he said that god decides whether we worship him or not. He told me directly that when it comes to worshipping god, we do not have free will. If I find his post I'll quote it here.

*EDIT* My mistake. We didn't have that discussion in this thread, but another. Here's what he said:

[QUOTE="dog64"]

[QUOTE="maheo30"]

All of hat is useless unless God opens their eyes. We are to make disciples. But unless God opens their eyes there won't be any disciples. Unless God opens their eyes there won't be any baptisms taking place. Let's look at another passage in Ezekil 36,

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.

While that passage is about the children of Israel it aso applies to the church since we have been engrafted into that covenant (Romans 9-11). Notice who is doing all the work there. There are 7 will I's there. That is God doing all that work. After God does the work of conversion what happens? They repent of their evil ways (See 2 Timoth 2:24-26). God does the work of conversion. Scripture attribues it all to God.

maheo30

So you agree? God makes the decision whether we convert or not, not us. So, we have no free will.

Lansdowne5 said:

Basically, Salvation is our eternal deliverence. It is eternal deliverence from God's wrath, i.e - judgement on us because of our sins:"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." - Romans 5:9

Salvation occurs through Faith in Christ. We are truly saved when we believe and put full trust in Jesus, and turn from our sinful past through repentance:"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16

"Universal" salvation is the belief that EVERYONE will be saved. Regardless of works, faith, or whatever you do in your life, it is the assertion that all will, eventually, be saved and thus allowed into Heaven.

This is contrary to so many verses of Scripture, for example, both John 14:6, and Acts 4:12 state that the only way we can be truly saved is through faith in Christ.

I have already discussed these verses in detail and have discussed why I do not at all get from them what you say I ought to get from them. But that is another discussion.

Lansdowne5 said:

One claim of these such "universalists" is that the original Greek manuscripts of the Bible don't teach eternal damnation for those who reject Christ. They say that "eternal" is a mistranslation, and as evidence declare that up to the 3rd century A.D it was commonly taught that punishment in hell was not forever.

There are a few things to consider here:

1. Not all verses which speak of eternal punishment actually translate as "eternal". Some translate as "for the ages of ages", or "forever and ever". They all derive from different states of the word "aion", and granted, on its own it can simply mean a long period of time, or in fact an unspecified length of time.However, just like when examing a written section of our own language, we must take into account the words which surround it in the sentences where eternal damnation is spoken of.

"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory FOREVER AND EVER. Amen," - 1 Timothy 1:17

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominionFOREVER AND EVER" - Revelation 5:13

"And a second time they said, "Hallelujah! Her smoke rises upFOREVER AND EVER" - Revelation 19:3

"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and nightFOREVER AND EVER," - Revelation 20:10

The phrase "forever and ever" in each of the verses above is translated from the phrase "aionas ton aionon" which literally means "ages of ages".If you take "aionas" on its own, it can mean anything ranging from a short period of time to eternity, as demonstrated in other passages of Scripture which use the same word to describe a coming time, or a past time.However, coupled 'with' "aionas" in these instances we have "ton aionon", which there can be no doubt DOES mean eternal. The way we would word it is "in a time (aionas) which will last forever (ton aionon).

No, it doesn't mean eternal. You can stick aionas with aionon (note: notaionion!) all you want; neither of those words ever means "eternity". The phrase eis aionas ton aionon is correctly translated as "for ages and ages" or "for eons and eons". Both aionas and aionon come from the word aion, which is the word from which the English word "eon" derives. It never means "eternity"; having it in the form of aionas ton aionon does not change that fact.

Even the very idea that aionas ton aionon could mean "eternity" is nonsensical for a very simple reason that was even illustrated in your post: aionas and aiononare plural - the literal translation of aionas ton aionon is "ages of the ages" (again, as was even shown in your post). If aion truly could mean "eternity", then you would have to translate that as "eternities of the eternities", which makes no sense - you can't have more than one eternity. Greek is a very precise language; to translate aionas ton aionon into something that has no plural in sight is to have fundamentally misunderstood the Greek text.

You want even more evidence? Here is a verse that makes use of that same wording:

"About the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever (eis aiona tou aionos), and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.'" (Hebrews 1:8 )

But - hold on - the Son is Jesus, and the Bible very clearly says that his rule will end and that his throne will be handed to the Father:

"Then the end will come, when [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. .... When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to [the Father] who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:24,28 )

Thus we reach the conclusion I have said all along: that phrase means precisely what it says in Greek, and what it says in Greek is most assuredly not "for eternity".

And as another note, I should also bring attention to the Greek word translated into "torment" in Revelation 20:10, which you have quoted there. That word is basanizo, which quite literally means "to torture; to vex with grievous pains". This is not the word used in Matthew 25:46 to describe the fate of sinners; again, that word is kolasin, which means "correction; punishment; penalty". Very, very different.

Lansdowne5 said:

2. If Hell is not a place where we will be eternally damned, why is it that verses talk of our body and soul being utterly destroyed? Surely if our body and soul are destroyed, we cannot then enter heaven?

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can DESTROY both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"They will be punished with everlasting DESTRUCTION and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" - 2 Thessalonians 1:9

The person won't be coming back from Hell, their body and soul will be destroyed and they'll be locked in a state of eternal torture forever and ever.

If you look at the original Greek, you will find that this has a very different meaning than it appears to hold - very similar to the point that the word kolasis refers not to torture, but to a corrective punishment.

The original Greek word that has been translated into "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 is apollumi. It is, in fact, the exact same word translated to "lost" in this verse:

"And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi)?" (Luke 15:6)

If this word were so final as you claim, then how, precisely, could something be taken back out of the state in which it was rendered? The word is not final at all; indeed, the use of the word apollumi corroborates the idea that one's time in hell is finite.

It also happens to be the same word as used here, too:

"(Jesus) answered, "I was sent only to the lost (apollumi) sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

Clearly, if Jesus was sent to those people, it would seem rather evident to me that God is not using apollumi as a word signifying any sort of finality at all, unless you wish to assert that the lost sheep of Israel can never be found and that Jesus was sent in vain.

The word in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is a little different, although it has the same origins as apollumi. That word is olethros. And it, too, has a similar nonfinal meaning as apollumi. See here another use of it that clearly displays what it really means:

"When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed (olethros)and his spirit saved (!) on the day of the Lord." (1 Corinthians 5:4-5, emph. added)

Olethros does not mean destruction as in laying something to waste, but rather the destruction of what is bad in preparation for a renewal, for the replacement of the bad with good. Thus olethros is very much akin to kolasis - it is something that the person will certainly not enjoy at the time, but it is something whose intent is to purify the soul, not destroy it utterly.

And as for the word "everlasting" in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, that is aionion again. Indeed, its use combined with the use of olethros, a word that most certainly does not signify anything final, is even more evidence in favor of the idea that aionion properly translated does not mean "everlasting" or "eternal".

Lansdowne5 said:

3. If eternal punishment is not taught, does this mean that eternal life is not taught either?

You cannot claim that verses which speak of eternal punishment are wrong, yet claim that verses which speak of eternal life are correct. As I demonstrated in the examples above the same wording is used to refer to everything - eternal damnation, eternal sacrifice, God's eternal nature, and eternal life through Christ.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." - Matthew 25:46

Already covered in a previous post: neither is referring to eternal anything. That doesn't mean that eternal life is preached nowhere, but Matthew 25:46 is not the verse doing so. In Matthew 25:31-46, the point in time being described is Jesus' return - note that it says talks about "the Son of Man com[ing] in all his glory". What is being described is precisely what is described in this verse as well:

"Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come. To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations." (Revelations 2:26)

And, as the Bible tells us, this is most certainly within time, since Jesus' reign will come to an end:

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power." (1 Corinthians 15:24)

Since the point being described in Matthew 25:31-46 exists within time, it cannot possibly be eternal life that Jesus is talking about in that verse, because "eternal" necessarily refers to something existing external to time.

And as for God's eternal nature, you will find that God's power and divine nature are described in the Bible as aidios, notaionios. Aidios is the word that means "eternal" in the Greek during the time at which the Bible was written; aionios is simply the adjectival form of aion - a time span of undefined but nonetheless finite length.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"] Why should every sin I do count as a 'wage'? Crushmaster

Because it says, "The wages of sin is death".

That includes any sin.

Speaking of death...

"Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he 'has put everything under his feet.'" (1 Corinthians 15:24-27, emph. added)

If the wages of sin is death, and if the last enemy to be destroyed is death, then...

Well, I think those watching at home can put two and two together.

No, it doesn't mean eternal. You can stick aionas with aionon (note: notaionios!) all you want; neither of those words ever means "eternity". The phrase is correctly translated as "for ages and ages" or "for eons and eons". Both aionas and aionon come from the word aion, which is the word from which the English word "eon" derives. It never means "eternity"; having it in the form of aionas ton aionon does not change that fact.GabuEx

Eon

E"on\, AEon \[AE]"on\, n. [L. aeon, fr. Gr. a'iwn space or period of time, lifetime, age; akin to L. aevum. See Age.]

1. An immeasurable or infinite space of time; eternity; a long space of time; an age.

The eons of geological time. --Huxley.

2. (Gnostic Philos.) One of the embodiments of the divine attributes of the Eternal Being.

Among the higher [AE]ons are Mind, Reason, Power, Truth, and Life. --Am. Cyc.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

Glitchspot wants me to cut off this part honestly, otherwise it won't let me quote you.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

LJS9502_basic

EDIT: Although I knew that the word eon doesn't mean eternity in any case, I will not argue as my knowledge is limited to Ancient Greek or Greek in general.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Glitchspot wants me to cut off this part honestly, otherwise it won't let me quote you.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

Teenaged

Um Webster says....

Eon

E"on\, AEon \(AE)"on\, n. (L. aeon, fr. Gr. a'iwn space or period of time, lifetime, age; akin to L. aevum. See Age.)

1. An immeasurable or infinite space of time; eternity; a long space of time; an age.

The eons of geological time. --Huxley.

2. (Gnostic Philos.) One of the embodiments of the divine attributes of the Eternal Being.

Among the higher (AE)ons are Mind, Reason, Power, Truth, and Life. --Am. Cyc.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

LJS9502_basic

That "eternity" is being used in the poetic sense, as in "This semester is going to take an eternity". Not literally eternity. "Eon" describes a period of time of unspecified, and perhaps very, very long, length, but nonetheless a period of time existing within time. I have never seen "eon" used to literally mean "eternity".

Oxford bears that out with its definition:

aeon

noun

1 an indefinite and very long period of time.

2 a major division of geological time, subdivided into eras.

3 Astronomy & Geology a unit of time equal to a thousand million years.

In fact, in looking through a bunch of dictionaries online, Webster is the only dictionary whose definition contains "eternity".

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Glitchspot wants me to cut off this part honestly, otherwise it won't let me quote you.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

LJS9502_basic

Aion (or ainoas as is in Koine Greek and in modern Greek) NEVER meant eternity.

Now when words though are loan words for other languages (aion turning into eon in English) it is highly propable that the meaning are either broadened or narrowed (sometimes even slightly deviated - not the case here though). The word eon was used in the translation I suppose in favor of its decend from aion, but that shouldn't happen.

As I said in my edit, I cannot argue about the word eon itself, but the word aion (aionas) NEVER in any case did it mean eternity. For this check why we name that period in Ancient Greece "The Golden "aion" of Perikles". Because to my best of knowledge it was a period of approximately 100 years. A century, not eternity.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]I think Gabu is talking about the ancient greek word aionas (aion) and not the translation that was given in English "eon" (which although might be the derivative it doesn't imply at all that the meaning hasn't been narrowed or broadened between the transition from aion to eon).

Teenaged

Aion (or ainoas as is in Koine Greek and in modern Greek) NEVER meant eternity.

Now when words though are loan words for other languages (aion turning into eon in English) it is highly propable that the meaning are either broadened or narrowed (sometimes even slightly deviated - not the case here though). The word eon was used in the translation I suppose in favor of its decend from aion, but that shouldn't happen.

As I said in my edit, I cannot argue about the word eon itself, but the word aion (aionas) NEVER in any case did it mean eternity. For this check why we name that period in Ancient Greece "The Golden "aion" of Perikles". Because to my best of knowledge it was a period of approximately 100 years. A century, not eternity.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Um Webster says....

Eon

E"on\, AEon \(AE)"on\, n. (L. aeon, fr. Gr. a'iwn space or period of time, lifetime, age; akin to L. aevum. See Age.)

1. An immeasurable or infinite space of time; eternity; a long space of time; an age.

The eons of geological time. --Huxley.

2. (Gnostic Philos.) One of the embodiments of the divine attributes of the Eternal Being.

Among the higher (AE)ons are Mind, Reason, Power, Truth, and Life. --Am. Cyc.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

GabuEx

That "eternity" is being used in the poetic sense, as in "This semester is going to take an eternity". Not literally eternity. "Eon" describes a period of time of unspecified, and perhaps very, very long, length, but nonetheless a period of time existing within time. I have never seen "eon" used to literally mean "eternity".

Oxford bears that out with its definition:

aeon

noun

1 an indefinite and very long period of time.

2 a major division of geological time, subdivided into eras.

3 Astronomy & Geology a unit of time equal to a thousand million years.

In fact, in looking through a bunch of dictionaries online, Webster is the only dictionary whose definition contains "eternity".

Nonetheless, Webster is an accredited dictionary.

LJS9502_basic

If one dictionary's definition is at odds with every single other dictionary, then its definition is either a) wrong or b) being misinterpreted.

Find me one single use of "eon" in which it is used to literally mean "eternity", if that is indeed what it means.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Glitchspot wants me to cut off this part honestly, otherwise it won't let me quote you.

Note: Eons were considered to be emanations sent forth by God from the depths of His grand solitude to fulfill various functions in the material and spiritual universe.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Nonetheless, Webster is an accredited dictionary.

GabuEx

If one dictionary's definition is at odds with every single other dictionary, then its definition is either a) wrong or b) being misinterpreted.

Find me one single use of "eon" to literally mean "eternity", if that is indeed what it means.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]I think Gabu is talking about the ancient greek word aionas (aion) and not the translation that was given in English "eon" (which although might be the derivative it doesn't imply at all that the meaning hasn't been narrowed or broadened between the transition from aion to eon).

3picuri3

First I would have to see which use you are putting the word...

LJS9502_basic

Eh? I'm talking about your assertion that the word "eon" can literally mean "eternity". If that was indeed the case, it seems to me that one ought to be able to find a use of the word in literature in which it is clearly used in that way... but I've certainly never seen one.

though you realize words change frequently. Even back then. By the time aion was used in manuscripts it could have taken on other meanings. Seems a minor quibble.

LJS9502_basic

Like I said, I have never once seen "eon" or aion used in a way that literally means "eternity". Words change, but that one does not seem to have done so very much.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

First I would have to see which use you are putting the word...

GabuEx

Eh? I'm talking about your assertion that the word "eon" can literally mean "eternity". If that was indeed the case, it seems to me that one ought to be able to find a use of the word in literature in which it is clearly used in that way... but I've certainly never seen one.

Webster's uses it that way....so obviously it can. Two words that tie together the same idea using the definitions of the words.

LJS9502_basic

...If it so obviously can be used in that way, why can you not find any instance in reality in which it is used in that way?

Like I said, I'd bet dollars to donuts that it it is said to mean "eternity" in the poetic sense, as in "I've been in this waiting room for an eon now", not as in the literal sense. If it was the literal sense, it would make no sense whatsoever why none of the other dictionaries would have that included in their definitions.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Webster's uses it that way....so obviously it can. Two words that tie together the same idea using the definitions of the words.

GabuEx

...If it so obviously can be used in that way, why can you not find any instance in reality in which it is used in that way?

Like I said, I'd bet dollars to donuts that it it is said to mean "eternity" in the poetic sense, as in "I've been in this waiting room for an eon now", not as in the literal sense. If it was the literal sense, it would make no sense whatsoever why none of the other dictionaries would have that included in their definitions.

As for the other dictionaries they use the word age. Age is synomymous with eternity which the thesaurus showed. So technically that is two dictiionaries.

Our understanding of the myraid uses of words from long ago is not perfect. Sometimes words don't have an exact translatiion so they "borrowed" one that was close. And anyway, I believe the word happened once in the NT so I don't see the importance of the argument.

I could make up a sentence if it makes you happy. I don't see the point in that. Look, I saw your comment, read the dictionary definitions because I was curious and noticed they did not all back you up.

As for the other dictionaries they use the word age. Age is synomymous with eternity which the thesaurus showed. So technically that is two dictiionaries.

LJS9502_basic

Wait, what? "Age" is synonymous with "eternity"? Not even Webster's bears that out:

Age

1. The whole duration of a being, whether animal, vegetable, or other kind; lifetime.

2. That part of the duration of a being or a thing which is between its beginning and any given time; as, what is the present age of a man, or of the earth?

3. The latter part of life; an advanced period of life; seniority; state of being old.

4. One of the stages of life; as, the age of infancy, of youth, etc. --Shak.

5. Mature age; especially, the time of life at which one attains full personal rights and capacities; as, to come of age; he (or she) is of age. --Abbott.

6. The time of life at which some particular power or capacity is understood to become vested; as, the age of consent; the age of discretion. --Abbott.

7. A particular period of time in history, as distinguished from others; as, the golden age, the age of Pericles. "The spirit of the age." --Prescott.

8. A great period in the history of the Earth.

9. A century; the period of one hundred years.

10. The people who live at a particular period; hence, a generation. "Ages yet unborn." --Pope.

11. A long time.

---------

In none of those definitions is "eternity" even remotely implied. Dictionaries and thesauruses are supposed to reflect the meaning of words as found in their standard usage; they do not define the meaning of words. No offense, but I'm a little befuddled as to how anyone who comes from an English-speaking background could ever make the assertion that "age" is synonymous with "eternity". If anything, "age" in its standard English usage generally refers to a shorter period of time than "eon".

Our understanding of the myraid uses of words from long ago is not perfect. Sometimes words don't have an exact translatiion so they "borrowed" one that was close. And anyway, I believe the word happened once in the NT so I don't see the importance of the argument.

LJS9502_basic

Any understanding of a word can only truly come from the way in which it is used. And, that's really exactly what I've been doing this entire time. Aion was never used to mean "eternity", and neither was "eon". Any dictionary claiming that as a definition is, purely and simply, wrong.

I guess, then, Gabu, we're going to be seeing Hitler.....and even Satan himself in Heaven. :roll:Lansdowne5

Jesus' death is surely void.Lansdowne5

I guess, then, Gabu, we're going to be seeing Hitler.....and even Satan himself in Heaven. :roll:

Furthermore.....if we all go to Heaven eventually after our "corrective punishment" is over, what is the point of this life? If we sin, what does it matter? Jesus' death is surely void. Sin has no hold over us. We will all eventually be given eternal life, anyway. What does it matter? What does anything matter?

I will let Scripture have the final word. I have it clear in my head already, and I am in no turmoil as to whether I'm correct. So...make of this what you will: "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" - Ecclesiastes 3:21Lansdowne5

If you find no purpose in this life without the idea that billions upon billions of people will be tortured forever in hell, I really have no idea what to tell you.

I will say, however, that Jesus came to Earth to save the entire world - and that is precisely what the text of the New Testament bears out.

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. " (1 John 2:1-2)

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:17-19., emph. added)

"This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:9-10)

"Hear, O LORD, and be merciful to me; O LORD, be my help. You turned my wailing into dancing; you removed my sackcloth and clothed me with joy, that my heart may sing to you and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give you thanks forever." (Psalm 30:10-12)

"Sing to the LORD, you saints of his; praise his holy name. For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning." (Psalm 30:4-5)

We know that "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) - but we also know that "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Corinthians 15:26)! And it should be noted that the word translated to death in both verses is identical - thanatos. And this version of the word "destroy" is very different than the ones you in the verses you quoted. It is the word katargeo, which is translated as "to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative; to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish" Thus it is very clear what the Bible declares: that which the sinful receive for their sins will be annulled at the very end, and all of humanity will be "put ... under him, so that God may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28 ).

The wording of "all in all" there, as well, deserves note. The Greek phrase translated to "all in all" is panta en pasin. Both of these words derive from the word pas, which is where the English suffix "pan-" derives from. Thus, this quite literally means "everything in everything" - there is not a single thing excluded.

That same word is the word translated to "all" in this verse, as well:

"For as in Adam all die (pantes apothneskousin), so in Christ all will be made alive (pantes zoopoiethesontai)." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

The indication could not be clearer: through no action of their own, all were subject to mortal death through Adam; and likewise, through no action of their own, all will be reborn through Christ. Those who sin will certainly find their experience after death to be most unpleasant, but the grace of God will find them all the same.

All of the evidence is crystal clear: eternal punishment is, purely and simply, entirely incompatible with what the Bible truly says.

Why does this trouble you? Do you want humans to be tortured forever in hell? Ought we not rejoice that God is not so wrathful that humanity will be eternally punished, but rather so merciful that all of humanity will know his love? Far from Jesus' death being void; Jesus' death has done precisely what it was supposed to do.

The fact of the matter is that the above is Christianity in its purest, most true form. The earliest Christians knew the meaning of the original Greek very well, and that is borne out by the fact that they were strong believers in universal reconciliation. It was not until people began using the Latin verse of the Bible and until Constantine enforced the doctrine of eternal torment of the wicked that this doctrine began to gain widespread acceptance. And even then, it was not until around 500 AD that universalism was first declared a heresy in Christianity - and, not coincidentally, it was not until this point in time that the number of people reading the original Greek began to dwindle.

I will not say what others have said that the doctrine of eternal damnation is a perversion of Christianity, because I honestly believe you truly do believe it and that you have no intention of misrepresenting the Word of God - but I will say that I highly encourage you to truly independently study the original Greek text of the New Testament. I can assure you that you will be very surprised in terms of what it does and does not say. I can tell you that I certainly was.

Incidentally, the Latin translation of aionion kolasin by St. Jerome was supplicium aeternum, which can be translated as "eternal torment". Compare that with the proper translation of aionion kolasin as "ages-long corrective punishment", and you can plainly see why those who relied on the Latin translation came to a completely different - and incorrect - conclusion than those who had relied on the original Greek.

Wait, what? "Age" is synonymous with "eternity"? Not even Webster's bears that out:

In none of those definitions is "eternity" even remotely implied. Dictionaries and thesauruses are supposed to reflect the meaning of words as found in their standard usage; they do not define the meaning of words. No offense, but I'm a little befuddled as to how anyone who comes from an English-speaking background could ever make the assertion that "age" is synonymous with "eternity". If anything, "age" in its standard English usage generally refers to a shorter period of time than "eon".

Any understanding of a word can only truly come from the way in which it is used. And, that's really exactly what I've been doing this entire time. Aion was never used to mean "eternity", and neither was "eon". Any dictionary claiming that as a definition is, purely and simply, wrong.

GabuEx

I showed a thesaurus link so I don't see your befuddlement. I guess you need to argue with Webster's and Roget's II thesuarus. Neither site is backing up your assertion. Who should I find more credible?

Any understanding of a word has to be from how it's practiced in daily life. Since no one exists today from back then I don't think it's 100% absolute that we can understand the nuances of each and every word. At best, it's an imperfect science.

I guess, then, Gabu, we're going to be seeing Hitler.....and even Satan himself in Heaven. :roll:Lansdowne5

Yay for Godwin's Law!

And, personally, I do not think even Hitler would deserve eternal damnation.

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]I guess, then, Gabu, we're going to be seeing Hitler.....and even Satan himself in Heaven. :roll:chessmaster1989

Yay for Godwin's Law!

And, personally, I do not think even Hitler would deserve eternal damnation.

Well, technically speaking that's not Godwin's Law, as Godwin's Law requires a comparison to Hitler.

[QUOTE="chessmaster1989"]

[QUOTE="Lansdowne5"]I guess, then, Gabu, we're going to be seeing Hitler.....and even Satan himself in Heaven. :roll:GabuEx

Yay for Godwin's Law!

And, personally, I do not think even Hitler would deserve eternal damnation.

Well, technically speaking that's not Godwin's Law, as Godwin's Law requires a comparison to Hitler.

:x

You could argue what he was saying was comparing what you were saying to saying Hitler was going to get into Heaven? :?

:x

You could argue what he was saying was comparing what you were saying to saying Hitler was going to get into Heaven? :?

chessmaster1989

Eh, we'll go with that. :P

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Wait, what? "Age" is synonymous with "eternity"? Not even Webster's bears that out:

In none of those definitions is "eternity" even remotely implied. Dictionaries and thesauruses are supposed to reflect the meaning of words as found in their standard usage; they do not define the meaning of words. No offense, but I'm a little befuddled as to how anyone who comes from an English-speaking background could ever make the assertion that "age" is synonymous with "eternity". If anything, "age" in its standard English usage generally refers to a shorter period of time than "eon".

Any understanding of a word can only truly come from the way in which it is used. And, that's really exactly what I've been doing this entire time. Aion was never used to mean "eternity", and neither was "eon". Any dictionary claiming that as a definition is, purely and simply, wrong.

LJS9502_basic

I showed a thesaurus link so I don't see your befuddlement. I guess you need to argue with Webster's and Roget's II thesuarus. Neither site is backing up your assertion. Who should I find more credible?

Any understanding of a word has to be from how it's practiced in daily life. Since no one exists today from back then I don't think it's 100% absolute that we can understand the nuances of each and every word. At best, it's an imperfect science.

I have already given you the example of the Age of Perikles which was not an eternity. It was in fact less than a century.

I have seen ancient greek texts using the word aion and it was always like this (where eon, enter aion) "in 3 eons", "for 2 eons", "after 4 eons" etc.

Why would someone count something which is supposed to be an eternity? Can you measure a lot of eternities?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="GabuEx"]

Wait, what? "Age" is synonymous with "eternity"? Not even Webster's bears that out:

In none of those definitions is "eternity" even remotely implied. Dictionaries and thesauruses are supposed to reflect the meaning of words as found in their standard usage; they do not define the meaning of words. No offense, but I'm a little befuddled as to how anyone who comes from an English-speaking background could ever make the assertion that "age" is synonymous with "eternity". If anything, "age" in its standard English usage generally refers to a shorter period of time than "eon".

Any understanding of a word can only truly come from the way in which it is used. And, that's really exactly what I've been doing this entire time. Aion was never used to mean "eternity", and neither was "eon". Any dictionary claiming that as a definition is, purely and simply, wrong.

Teenaged

I showed a thesaurus link so I don't see your befuddlement. I guess you need to argue with Webster's and Roget's II thesuarus. Neither site is backing up your assertion. Who should I find more credible?

Any understanding of a word has to be from how it's practiced in daily life. Since no one exists today from back then I don't think it's 100% absolute that we can understand the nuances of each and every word. At best, it's an imperfect science.

I have already given you the example of the Age of Perikles which was not an eternity. It was in fact less than a century.

I have seen ancient greek texts using the word aion and it was always like this (where eon, enter aion) "in 3 eons", "for 2 eons", "after 4 eons" etc.

Why would someone count something which is supposed to be an eternity? Can you measure a lot of eternities?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]So far you have argued against the dictionary and now the thesaurus link. I gave you the link.And it wasn't Webster's so I don't know what that proves. Except that you do consider Webster to a valid source for definitions. ;)

I showed a thesaurus link so I don't see your befuddlement. I guess you need to argue with Webster's and Roget's II thesuarus. Neither site is backing up your assertion. Who should I find more credible?

Any understanding of a word has to be from how it's practiced in daily life. Since no one exists today from back then I don't think it's 100% absolute that we can understand the nuances of each and every word. At best, it's an imperfect science.

LJS9502_basic

I have already given you the example of the Age of Perikles which was not an eternity. It was in fact less than a century.

I have seen ancient greek texts using the word aion and it was always like this (where eon, enter aion) "in 3 eons", "for 2 eons", "after 4 eons" etc.

Why would someone count something which is supposed to be an eternity? Can you measure a lot of eternities?

And excuse me but there are numerous ancient greek texts that survive. The instances this word has been attested are not few but many.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]The wrong statement here is that there are examples of how it was used. Just search any ancient greek text. From philosophy writings to anything recorded in history in ancient greek tongue.

I have already given you the example of the Age of Perikles which was not an eternity. It was in fact less than a century.

I have seen ancient greek texts using the word aion and it was always like this (where eon, enter aion) "in 3 eons", "for 2 eons", "after 4 eons" etc.

Why would someone count something which is supposed to be an eternity? Can you measure a lot of eternities?

Teenaged

And excuse me but there are numerous ancient greek texts that survive. The instances this word has been attested are not few but many.

That's wonderful. That doesn't mean it was only used that way. You really can't say. Look at how words are used today. If we were primitive and only a select few did the writing....all the slang would be lost now as well.

LJS9502_basic

And besides you argument says: "the dictionary lists it as eternity and we will take it although all the instances we have it used does not mean that, just because it might mean eternity because it makes sense in the Bible as we perceive it". Think about it.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

That's wonderful. That doesn't mean it was only used that way. You really can't say. Look at how words are used today. If we were primitive and only a select few did the writing....all the slang would be lost now as well.

Teenaged

And besides you argument says: "the dictionary lists it as eternity and we will take it although all the instances we have it used does not mean that, just because it might mean eternity because it makes sense in the Bible as we perceive it". Think about it.

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

That's wonderful. That doesn't mean it was only used that way. You really can't say. Look at how words are used today. If we were primitive and only a select few did the writing....all the slang would be lost now as well.

LJS9502_basic

And besides you argument says: "the dictionary lists it as eternity and we will take it although all the instances we have it used does not mean that, just because it might mean eternity because it makes sense in the Bible as we perceive it". Think about it.

No, I highly doubt it. More and more every day people lose their faith in something they've never seen or heard from, "God". That is why there are so many people who are neutral from religion

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]Argh, but I am Greek. I know it sounds stupid to use as an argument but such words like aion are not one of those ambiguous words one would leave a doubt about what would mean.

And besides you argument says: "the dictionary lists it as eternity and we will take it although all the instances we have it used does not mean that, just because it might mean eternity because it makes sense in the Bible as we perceive it". Think about it.

Teenaged

And this.

Here's a little something I wrote, called "Do You Consider Yourself To Be A Good Person?", using the evangelism method of "Way of the Master", which was invented by Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort:
Hello,
I imagine you probably consider yourself to be a good person. But, just to be sure: Do you consider yourself to be a good person?

Most likely, you'll answer "yes". If you do, that's not surprising. The Bible says..."Proverbs 20:6 - Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?"

Or, even if you said "no", you should keep reading this anyway.:D

Now, next question: Have you ever told a lie?
If you answered "no" to that question, I can say with 100% accuracy you just told me one.

Now: since you've told a lie, what does that make you?
If you answer "liar", you're correct. If you don't, I'm afraid the dictionary disproves you. "Liar: One that tells lies."

Now, it's time for another question: Have you ever stolen anything? The value doesn't matter, and even "stealing" time from your employer or something along those lines counts.
If you tell me you've never stolen anything, which is a distinct - but unlikely - possibility, just remember you've already admitted to me that you're a liar. Or, you should have.

Now: since you've stolen something, what does that make you?
Many answer "stealer" and, while that is a strange use of English (though it is a word), we can let that slide.

Now, another question: have you ever looked with lust?
Before you answer, read these verses from Matthew 5 (Jesus - God in the flesh - is speaking): "Matthew 5:27-28 - Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: {28} But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
If you're honest, I am sure you will say "yes" to this question. Thus, according to God's Word, the Bible, you are an adulterer at heart.

Now, here are two more questions:
Have you ever used God's name in vain? (example: Oh my G**!)
Have you ever hated anyone? (God considers hatred murder - "1 John 3:15, "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him")

If you answer "yes" to these questions, God considers you a murdering blasphemer at heart.

Now, here are some of the few remaining questions:
Have you always loved God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength?
Have you made a god in your own image; one to suit yourself?
Have you always kept the Sabbath (Sunday) holy?
Have you always honored your parents?
Have you ever coveted (been greedy or materialistic; or, wanted something someone else had)?

If you've answered "yes" to every question about whether or not you've committed a certain deed, then, according to God's Standard, the Ten Commandments (you can read about them in Exodus 20; in the Old Testament), you would be: A lying, thieving, adulterous, blaspheming, murdering, idolatrous (for both the first and second remaining questions), Sabbath-defiling, rebellious, coveter at heart, and you're going to have to face a righteous God on Judgment Day. Based on these answers, what do you think your eternal destiny is going to be: Heaven, or Hell?
(Click on the spoiler tag to read the rest).
[spoiler]
Before you answer, take into consideration these verses from the book of James: "James 2:10-11 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of ALL. {11} For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law."

According to these verses then, friend, if you break on of God's Laws, than, in His eyes, it's as if you've broken them all! Now, back to the question:

If you're "religious", you may perhaps say: "I might be all those things, but my good outweighs my bad."

Not true. The Bible says, "Revelation 21:7-8 - He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. {8} But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Let's do a quick analogy:
We'll say you're a wealthy philanthropist, who's given millions of dollars to charity. One day, however, you murder a man on the street.
If the judge you are placed before is, indeed, a just judge, he will only focus on what wrong deed you have done: and that deed is murder. You're going to be in danger of Capital Punishment despite all of the "good" deeds you've done.

You might say, "But I've never murdered anyone, nor have I hated anyone." That doesn't matter, friend. God considers ALL sin to be deadly. Look: "Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Furthermore, you might still refuse to say you're a bad person. If so: "Romans 3:10 - There is NONE righteous; no, not one."
Also, friend, your works cannot save you. Look at these verses: "Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: {9} Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Also: "Isaiah 64:6 - But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
And, finally: "Titus 3:5-7 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; {6} Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; {7} That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
God sees all of your righteous acts as filthy rags! Those cannot purchase the priceless gift of eternal life, given to us by Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23).

Or, maybe you're an atheist or an agnostic. One of you is like a man who looks at a building at says, "There was no builder!" and one of you is like a man who looks at one and says, "I don't know if there was a builder!"

Both positions are, in all reality, illogical and utterly ridiculous. Yes, you heard me correctly. After all - many of the top atheists don't seem to want to debate people such as Ray Comfort. Why? Because being an atheist/agnostic is illogical! Debating an esteemed Christian apologist would, most likely (unless one did some fancy footwork and committed some logical fallacies), show the flaws in one's beliefs and views.

As I said, it's like believing a building (in this case, Creation) had no builder, or believing you didn't know if it had one. Illogical? Of course! But that's what you believe. You believe something came from nothing, and order came from chaos (the Big Bang).

Allow me to ask you a question: would you sell one of your eyes for a million dollars? Would you sell both of them for fifty million? If you're like most people, I hope you'd say "no". I know I wouldn't sell one of my eyes or both of them for any price.

Jesus, however, said this: "Matthew 5:29 - And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell."

Your soul is so much more valuable than your eye/eyes that Jesus said it was better to pluck out one of them than to spend eternity in Hell. While He was speaking figuratively, of course, it shows how valuable your soul really is. Look: "Matthew 16:26 - For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

Friend, whether you wish to admit it or not, you WILL face God when you die, and you WILL be judged. And only one thing, in essence, will matter (speaking to you, the atheist/agnostic, and to anyone else - Muslim, Hindu, professing Christian, etc.). Only one thing will save your soul from eternal damnation. What is that one thing?

Jesus Christ. In John 14:6, Jesus Christ says: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No man cometh to the Father but by Me."
Take a look at these verses:
"John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall NOT see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."
"Romans 3:10 - As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, not one."
"Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Finally, I will show you perhaps the most important verses:
"Romans 10:9-13 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. {10} For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. {11} For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. {12} For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. {13} For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

These verses contain the entire way of salvation, friend. If you follow what they say, you will be made a new creature in Christ (see 2nd Corinthians 5:17), and will be saved from the eternal death of Hell!

If you do indeed follow those verses and are saved, get a Bible, read it, and obey what it says. Start with reading the book of John, and then read the book of Romans. Then, find a good, Bible-believing church and start attending regularly. Also, please PM me, so I can rejoice with you.

But, if you do not follow them, you will remain lost in sin, and will continue to be a sinner in need of a Savior (Jesus Christ), on your way to Hell.

Today is the day of salvation, friend. Won't you repent of your sins today, and accept Christ as your personal Savior? Your life is but a vapor; don't put it off!

Let today be the day you become a follower of the one, true God - the Almighty Jehovah God.
God bless, and thanks for taking the time to read this. [/spoiler]

Crush....God does not expect perfection. He expects you do your best. So condemning people for mistakes is not his message.

Crush....God does expect perfection. He expects you do your best. So condemning people for mistakes is not his message.

LJS9502_basic

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Crush....God does expect perfection. He expects you do your best. So condemning people for mistakes is not his message.

123625

Crush....God does expect perfection. He expects you do your best. So condemning people for mistakes is not his message.

LJS9502_basic

He does expect perfection. He cannot allow someone who is not made perfect through His Son (Jesus Christ) into Heaven.
I'm not sure if you did, but if you read all of the tract, it should make sense.

Crushmaster

This is the sort of ridiculous thinking which turns people away from religion!!!

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Crush....God does expect perfection. He expects you do your best. So condemning people for mistakes is not his message.

Crushmaster

That is actually none of your business.

At some point there is an end to dragging your own thread back up every few days.