Flaw in Christian beliefs

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

If you think that the United States of America is a theocracy, then please tell us which religion it is that controls us. Deity_Slapper

We're not under control of any specific religion. The government uses people's religious beliefs against them, in order to control them. Most religions have gods. If someone who believes in Allah takes the stand, and hears the phrase, "do you swear to tell the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god?", the court's hope is that the Allah worshipper will think of his almighty Allah, as the "god" they referenced, and not wanting to upset Allah, this person will agree to tell the truth. It's not necessarily one religion. They never say, "so help you Jesus"...they say, "so help you god"...it covers all religions that have gods.

In the functions of government there is no influence from religion. tycoonmike

Correct. There is no religious "influence"...there is just government using people's fear of their personal god against them, no matter what religion they are.

We may have prayers, we may even have "In God We Trust" on our currency, but the fact of the matter is that our government is NOT controlled by ANY religion. tycoonmike

Again, government is NOT controlled by religion, people's decisions ARE controlled by THEIR fear of THEIR specific god, and the government simply uses that fear against them. Do you understand yet?

Again, this wasn't even my main point here. I said that "mass-population control" was just a theory. My main arguement with LJ was that he said we have seperation of church and state in this country, when we clearly do not. People's religious beliefs are CONSTANTLY exploited for the gains of the courts, and thus, the "state".

Why can't the court just ask us to tell the truth? And if they find out we lied, they'll try us for perjury? Wouldn't that work? That's just as fear-inducing, is it not? But no...I guess the courts understand that people fear their god more than they fear their fellow man, so that's why the courts decide to integrate church and state...by exploiting people's beliefs, to get what they want.

All governments use their own people against themselves. It doesn't matter if it is religiously based or not. Indeed, how do you suppose the American government could approve such vast increases in defense spending that occured during the Cold War without using the idea that all Communists are wrong? It isn't the fault of religions, it is the fault of the government, and therefore has no place in a religious thread.

Separation of Church and State- The process by which the institutions of government and religion are kept seperate.

As I said, the United States isn't a theocracy, just as you have been implying by your argument that the separation of church and state is non-existant in this country. If it wasn't existant, we would be a Christian nation, just as the old European monarchies were. We are NOT a theocracy because the functions of the government are seperated from the functions of religion. We have no say, for instance, in the choosing of the next Pope, nor does any religion, as a whole, have a say in the election of the next president.

The reason why the courts do that is because the majority of the US population believes in some form of God. About four of five people believe in a God (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_USA) Of that number, a majority (number not available) of such people place religion as "very important" in their lives. It's not that the courts are trying to scare people into believing in God, they're trying to extract truthful information by using their belief. They do use fear, I will be the first to admit that, but I doubt that even an atheist would willingly lie despite not believing that God would punish him in the afterlife.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

Deity_Slapper

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

Like Funky said:

To believe in God is to imply his existence.

Funky_Llama

^^^ He understands, and I'm sure many others do, too.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

Because there is still someone who doesn't believe in that way.

I have already posted in reference to this concept, but I guess it requires more explination. It is a pivotal part of my belief in God that you must believe in It to go to Heaven, you must NOT know that it exists, because God asks us to have faith in It. Faith is a belief without reason or evidence. If you make the statement "God exists" then you believe that God exists and therefore you do not have faith in It, as It has asked us to have. I am an agnostic theist because I believe God asks us to be agnostic theists, to believe in It despite not having the evidence of our senses to cooberate such a story. To believe in God is not to imply Its existance, it is to believe that It exists without knowing whether or not It exists. To know that God exists, by using humanly definites to explain Its nature is not to believe that It exists.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

tycoonmike

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

Like Funky said:

To believe in God is to imply his existence.

Funky_Llama

^^^ He understands, and I'm sure many others do, too.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

Because there is still someone who doesn't believe in that way.

I have already posted in reference to this concept, but I guess it requires more explination. It is a pivotal part of my belief in God that you must believe in It to go to Heaven, you must NOT know that it exists, because God asks us to have faith in It. Faith is a belief without reason or evidence. If you make the statement "God exists" then you believe that God exists and therefore you do not have faith in It, as It has asked us to have. I am an agnostic theist because I believe God asks us to be agnostic theists, to believe in It despite not having the evidence of our senses to cooberate such a story. To believe in God is not to imply Its existance, it is to believe that It exists without knowing whether or not It exists. To know that God exists, by using humanly definites to explain Its nature is not to believe that It exists.

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

Because there is still someone who doesn't believe in that way.

I have already posted in reference to this concept, but I guess it requires more explination. It is a pivotal part of my belief in God that you must believe in It to go to Heaven, you must NOT know that it exists, because God asks us to have faith in It. Faith is a belief without reason or evidence. If you make the statement "God exists" then you believe that God exists and therefore you do not have faith in It, as It has asked us to have. I am an agnostic theist because I believe God asks us to be agnostic theists, to believe in It despite not having the evidence of our senses to cooberate such a story. To believe in God is not to imply Its existance, it is to believe that It exists without knowing whether or not It exists. To know that God exists, by using humanly definites to explain Its nature is not to believe that It exists.

tycoonmike

Uhh, what? So you believe that people believe in god, without knowing if he's there, and you also believe that this unproven god has also asked certain things of us? (As underlined.)

So you have to faith that god exists, ok. But you're also BELIEVING that he asked certain things of us. But since you only have FAITH that he EXISTS to begin with, then you're also having FAITH ONLY that he asked this of us. Because without proof of his existence to begin with, where exactly are you getting these ideas that he wants certain things from us? You have faith that the bible is his word, too? I mean, there has to be an anchor somewhere. If the whole religion is based on faith, and has no foundation in reality whatsoever, then it should be clear to anyone with their brain turned on, that it's a great possibility that it could be a scam. Not saying it is, but that possibility alone disqualifies it from being worthy of followers, and we should wait for the answers to life to be revealed by some other source.

So not only is his existence validated only by faith, but also anything that you could possibly associate with him, or credit to him? Do you see the problem with that? That leaves the door open for all kinds of crazy **** This is why so many televangelists can make up a whole bunch of crap and get people to give them all their money, because they can just fall back on the "faith" issue. "Just have faith that I'm telling you what god wants me to be saying. Just have faith that god wants you to give me your money. You must have faith in god my brothers and sisters, so therefore, you must also have faith in anything I say, since I am a messenger for god." All the sheep eat it up, like, "Yep yep, that's right! If it's done in god's name, then it's right!"

It's just too convenient that you have to have faith, and faith alone. At least god could have given us a starting point, a foundation of sorts, that we could have built upon, in hopes that - and HAVING FAITH that - we were doing it right by his desires. If the whole thing has no foundation in reality, at all, and it was brought to our attention by mankind, then I don't know how anyone couldn't see it as a potential scam. Again, I'm not saying for sure it is, cause I don't want to open up another can of worms, but obviously, anything that is being pushed upon you, with no evident foundation of fact, should be looked at with wary eyes. I'm not saying to discredit it instantaneously...maybe give it a try for a while, but if after a while, you still see no proper validation for the claims behind it, you just have to let it go. It's too likely that it's just a scam brought about to us by mankind. Especially when you tie in the fact that there's money involved, lots of it, and all tax-exempt.

Faith should be free. Salvation shouldn't have price tag on it. You could always worship from home. Which makes me think of mormons. One of the things they like to brainwash their victims with, is that tithing will actually save them from hellfire. Yep, that's right. Mormons affectionately refer to tithing (10% of their income) as "fire insurance". That alone gives it away that it's a scam. Like god would really say,"Well, you were a great person, but you didn't give money to the church, so, off to hell you go!", or, "You were a total jerk and lived a horrible life, but since you paid your tithe, you've have bought yourself immunity from the flames. come on into heaven, I guess..." As if god would care about, or need money.

The churches are racking up way too much profits, without any of the promises they make coming true. After all these years now, how can you not see that it's all garbage? Have faith in what? God? Who's that? You're just having faith in what SOMEONE TOLD YOU. That's it. You have no evidence, and neither did the person who convinced you it was true.

(Not referring to you personally tycoonmike, this is a general statement.)

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

Funky_Llama

The bolded statements contradict.

Sorry I went on that long rant that probably nobody will read... :roll:

What I really wanted to say was, tycoonmike, you say that having faith is believing without knowledge that he's real...BUT, in order for someone to even decide to dedicate their time, and life, to such a notion, they MUST BE believing it to be ACTUALLY TRUE, deep down. Otherwise, they'd disregard it. That's just human nature.

There's no way that anyone will waste their one and only life on something like that unless they really believe it will pay off.

Don't tell me you actually believe that people care about themselves so little, that they'll actually dedicate themselves to unproven things just for the hell of it.

People who believe in god? They also believe he exists. Period. Don't believe me? Just ask them. All the christians I know who believe in god, because they REALLY BELIEVE he is there, and REALLY BELIEVE that all promises of afterlife and other assorted blessings will come true.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

Theokhoth

The bolded statements contradict.

No they didn't. :?

He just used different words, but the same point was made.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

Theokhoth

The bolded statements contradict.

:roll: By all means point out the contradiction, because I don't see it.

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

Funky_Llama

Faith- belief that is not based on proof

Faith- belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

Source, second definition- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

Which website is right?

Uhh, what? So you believe that people believe in god, without knowing if he's there, and you also believe that this unproven god has also asked certain things of us? (As underlined.)

So you have to faith that god exists, ok. But you're also BELIEVING that he asked certain things of us. But since you only have FAITH that he EXISTS to begin with, then you're also having FAITH ONLY that he asked this of us. Because without proof of his existence to begin with, where exactly are you getting these ideas that he wants certain things from us? You have faith that the bible is his word, too? I mean, there has to be an anchor somewhere. If the whole religion is based on faith, and has no foundation in reality whatsoever, then it should be clear to anyone with their brain turned on, that it's a great possibility that it could be a scam. Not saying it is, but that possibility alone disqualifies it from being worthy of followers, and we should wait for the answers to life to be revealed by some other source.

1. So not only is his existence validated only by faith, but also anything that you could possibly associate with him, or credit to him? Do you see the problem with that? That leaves the door open for all kinds of crazy **** This is why so many televangelists can make up a whole bunch of crap and get people to give them all their money, because they can just fall back on the "faith" issue. "Just have faith that I'm telling you what god wants me to be saying. Just have faith that god wants you to give me your money. You must have faith in god my brothers and sisters, so therefore, you must also have faith in anything I say, since I am a messenger for god." All the sheep eat it up, like, "Yep yep, that's right! If it's done in god's name, then it's right!"

2. It's just too convenient that you have to have faith, and faith alone. At least god could have given us a starting point, a foundation of sorts, that we could have built upon, in hopes that - and HAVING FAITH that - we were doing it right by his desires. If the whole thing has no foundation in reality, at all, and it was brought to our attention by mankind, then I don't know how anyone couldn't see it as a potential scam. Again, I'm not saying for sure it is, cause I don't want to open up another can of worms, but obviously, anything that is being pushed upon you, with no evident foundation of fact, should be looked at with wary eyes. I'm not saying to discredit it instantaneously...maybe give it a try for a while, but if after a while, you still see no proper validation for the claims behind it, you just have to let it go. It's too likely that it's just a scam brought about to us by mankind. Especially when you tie in the fact that there's money involved, lots of it, and all tax-exempt.

3. Faith should be free. Salvation shouldn't have price tag on it. You could always worship from home. Which makes me think of mormons. One of the things they like to brainwash their victims with, is that tithing will actually save them from hellfire. Yep, that's right. Mormons affectionately refer to tithing (10% of their income) as "fire insurance". That alone gives it away that it's a scam. Like god would really say,"Well, you were a great person, but you didn't give money to the church, so, off to hell you go!", or, "You were a total jerk and lived a horrible life, but since you paid your tithe, you've have bought yourself immunity from the flames. come on into heaven, I guess..." As if god would care about, or need money.

4. The churches are racking up way too much profits, without any of the promises they make coming true. After all these years now, how can you not see that it's all garbage? Have faith in what? God? Who's that? You're just having faith in what SOMEONE TOLD YOU. That's it. You have no evidence, and neither did the person who convinced you it was true.

Deity_Slapper

1. As it should. It is up to us to come to our own conclusions about faith. If televangelists wish to make money out of fear, then so be it. They'll get theirs when the time comes. People could also make their own decisions about faith and not be led unto ruin by such blasphemers. I don't judge people because of their choices, that's God's job. I simply interpret the Bible, the Torah, the Qur'an, the Vedas, and all other holy books.

2. As It should have, according to humanly logic. You forget that God does not have to conform to human logic. Perhaps that is why It gave us no foundation, no anchor if you will, to have faith in It, to test our faith in It. In discussing religion, you must conform to the ideas of the religion. If you are speaking of Christianity, for instance, you must conform your arguments to the Christian beliefs.

3. You're right, faith is free. What you don't credit me with is the extension of my beliefs. I believe that we must have faith in God, and faith in It alone, to ascend into heaven. By extension, therefore, I believe organized religion to be a sin against God. I do not believe that any man can tell you to believe in one way or another and give you the right to ascend to heaven. Now, you're probably wondering, "well if a man can't boost you to heaven, then what about Jesus? He was a man." I believe in the divinity of Jesus, I believe that Jesus was the son of God and was given the ability to accurately judge the character of others. I have no evidence, but that is all a part of my faith.

4. As I said, I don't associate myself with any church because I believe them to be sins against God. If someone wishes to make money off of the fears of others, then so be it. They'll get theirs. Do not make assumptions. I never said that I had evidence. No one convinced me of my beliefs, I convinced myself from the observations of the many other religions. I believe in a combination of the theology of Christianity and the philosophy of Taoism.

Italicized- Yes, because statements such as these don't make me thing that this is personal:|

[QUOTE="Theokhoth"][QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

Funky_Llama

The bolded statements contradict.

:roll: By all means point out the contradiction, because I don't see it.

To believe in God is to believe He exists. The second point is true.

But to believe in God is not to hold that He exists. The first point contradicts the second.

Believing God exists is not the same as declaring to the world that God exists. This is what has been discussed over and over. It should be painfully obvious.

[QUOTE="Funky_Llama"]

Wikipedia: Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

Thus, to believe in God is to holds that he exists.

Also from Wikipedia: 'Faith is a belief in the trustworthiness of an idea that has not been proven.'

So by extension, to have faith in God is to believe that he exists.

tycoonmike

Faith- belief that is not based on proof

Faith- belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

Source, second definition- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

Which website is right?

What's your point? I never denied that faith is without proof. But it is still a form of belief; someone with faith still thinks that their faith is correct.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]:lol: Actually yes....if someone bases an opinioin/viewpoint on information that is cleary incorrect....their points are wrong.

Deity_Slapper

Opinions can't be wrong to the individual. Unless you're saying your opinion is greater than theirs. Because every time you've said that someone's opinion is wrong, you only provide your own opinion in contrast...never concrete facts. That's arrogance. :roll:

They should be if they are based on incorrect data. An educated person can reverse his opinion when presented with facts.

You have yet to respond to my posts. You have yet to offer counter evidence. Thus, as it stands....I've proven my side...you have not.

LJS9502_basic

What are you talking about? BEING VAGUE AGAIN!

What did I not answer? If you're going to say I didn't answer something, make a reference to what it was! But no, you just say, "you didn't answer me. Meh." Well, that doesn't help either one of us, now does it?

Same thing I've been talking about....but hey DS can't provide the evidence so he'll throw out his favorite word. YOUR PROOF that the US is run by religion and that separation of Church and State don't exist.

And here again is proof that you call yourself a winner in every thread.

LJS9502_basic

I say that sometimes sarcastically, because you're the one who's so obsessed with it. Look, even now you're trying to convince me that I didn't win.

I know I didn't win! There's no competition! :lol:

You're not sarcastic. You believe it. And yet another ad hominem attack.

I have not done so. I've mentioned that I'm waiting for you to provide your proof. You have failed to do so. LJS9502_basic

Again, proof of what? So far, in this thread, I've answered everything you've asked of me. However, YOU on the other hand, avoided 4 times my question of, "Do you believe god is real?". Hypocracy is ugly.

Read my comment two above. I don't have to answer a question just because you have asked it. I have not made that statement in this thread and thus, it's not part of the conversation. You have made the comments I've asked clarification on. No hypocrisy except on your side. You make statements...avoid your proof of such statements...then make a statement for me and expect me to answer it.:roll:

Context is everything....and you usually edit posts to take them out of context. That doesn't bolster your case, however, Anyone who has read the thread can see what you've done. LJS9502_basic

I cut them to focus on specific points. I'm not changing anything anyone has said however. Saying I'm "editing" posts makes it sound like I'm trying to change what people say. I've seen you cut posts as well. The pot is calling the kettle black here. Give it up, dude.

You haven't focused on the specific points. You cut them to change the topic,

Funny then that the majority of OT understands enough of my posts to respond to them. Seems to be an isolated case of only you not understanding. Hmm....what could the common denominator be? LJS9502_basic

The majority of OT probably doesn't care, that's why they don't say anything. And most people just avoid the crap they can't understand. You also tend to annoy many folks here with your smugness. They probably just avoid you.

Oh wait! I have an even better response to this! Check it out, here goes: Link? :lol: Proof? :lol: Give me proof that the majority of OT understands you, LJ. Can't do it, huh? But I guess I should just believe the same lie that you convinced yourself of, right? Yikes...

Nothing in this post in which to respond....merely another smokescreen of ad hominem attacks in which you hope the casual reader thinks you've made some points when in reality you have not dons so.

And had your read my last post I believe to Funky_Llama you would clearly see I know what your agenda is and I'm not playing that came. It's an illogical conclusion. LJS9502_basic

I saw that. And I'll make a post responding to that, after this one.

Your response was wrong.

Some people? Now that's what I call vague. Link? LJS9502_basic

You need a link to prove that some people fear god? Really? :? Come out of your cave every once in a while, and you would know this to be a fact. I don't need a link. To deny something that is common knowledge, makes you appear extremely sheltered, perhaps even ignorant.

I want a link showing the government uses fear in collusion with religion to cause fear. That is your stance.

That's not integration of church and state. The church is not running the court decisions. The court is not telling the state what to try. Etc. Sorry....not a logical conclusion here either. LJS9502_basic

Read my post to tycoonmike. It explains what I meant. Of course the church isn't running the courts! :lol: But you go ahead and keep your head in the sand there, buddy....yeah, keep pretending that's what I'm saying. Real big of you. :roll:

Your posts to TycoonMike are much like your remarks to me. Evasive, illogical, and biased.

In discussing religion, you must conform to the ideas of the religion. If you are speaking of Christianity, for instance, you must conform your arguments to the Christian beliefs.tycoonmike

Screw that. That's way too convenient for the religion in question. Scam city. Conform... :roll:

I have no evidence, but that is all a part of my faith. tycoonmike

Everything you have faith in, came from ideas that were on this earth before you were born.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

Deity_Slapper

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

And while you are attacking my wisdom and intellect...ad homimen again.....I can see in this thread that the two of you are outnumbered in this subject. So if that's how we're deciding this...the numbers are against the two of you.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

In discussing religion, you must conform to the ideas of the religion. If you are speaking of Christianity, for instance, you must conform your arguments to the Christian beliefs.Deity_Slapper

Screw that. That's way too convenient for the religion in question. Scam city. Conform... :roll:

I have no evidence, but that is all a part of my faith. tycoonmike

Everything you have faith in, came from ideas that were on this earth before you were born.

Convenient, and yet true. You cannot discuss Christianity with Islamic references. You cannot discuss Christianity with atheistic references, as you have been.

Then so be it. I had no access to such materials until I had already came up with my faith. I don't claim to be original.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

LJS9502_basic

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

And while you are attacking my wisdom and intellect...ad homimen again.....I can see in this thread that the two of you are outnumbered in this subject. So if that's how we're deciding this...the numbers are against the two of you.

You know what, the only part I care about is that you can't claim #1, unless you also believed #2. That's a fact. Focus on that if you can, and stop crying ad hominem. Get over it. Like you never do "ad hominem" anyway. Your hypocracy is getting stale really quick. :roll:

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Convenient, and yet true. You cannot discuss Christianity with Islamic references. You cannot discuss Christianity with atheistic references, as you have been.

Then so be it. I had no access to such materials until I had already came up with my faith. I don't claim to be original.

LJS9502_basic

Trying to get people on your side, and turn against your opponent, is evidence of fear that you're losing your grip on the debate. ;)

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Convenient, and yet true. You cannot discuss Christianity with Islamic references. You cannot discuss Christianity with atheistic references, as you have been.

Then so be it. I had no access to such materials until I had already came up with my faith. I don't claim to be original.

Deity_Slapper

Trying to get people on your side, and turn against your opponent, is evidence of fear that you're losing your grip on the debate. ;)

He hasn't gotten me on his side. Indeed, I believe he is being just as vague as you are. I haven't targeted him because I recognize the need to keep some order instead of performing a thread-jacking, just as the two of you have.

He hasn't gotten me on his side. tycoonmike

Yeah, I know. I'm saying that he's trying to. You've actually been quite respectful in this thread. I thank you for that, if that means anything to you.

Indeed, I believe he is being just as vague as you are. tycoonmike

:lol:

Yet another one who says LJ is vague. I don't even care that you said I am...just look at it LJ! :lol: Oh man, that's too funny...

He dismisses anything that shows up a point he makes. And harps on something unimportant to the discsussion to try to appear he's "winning"...his favorite thing to tell you.LJS9502_basic

^^^ By the way, is this not "ad hominem"?

Yes it is, and it also happens to be hypocracy as well. A double shot of fail for LJ. Darn. :roll:

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]They should be if they are based on incorrect data. An educated person can reverse his opinion when presented with facts.

Deity_Slapper

Incorrect data? What happened to incorrect facts? :lol:

Facts and data are interchangeble here.:roll:

YOUR PROOF that the US is run by religion and that separation of Church and State don't exist.

LJS9502_basic

Umm...I gave my ideas already. I'm not typing it again. :roll:

No..you haven't. The money and the pledge are not anything that instills fear. There is no correlation there with your assumption and as such they are not proof. Your court example is not universal in the US and thus also not correlation. Plus, neither of those cases have anything to do with the actual running of the country. Another assumption you made.

You're not sarcastic. You believe it. And yet another ad hominem attack.

LJS9502_basic

Waaaah! :cry: Ad hominem!! Make him stop, mods!!... :roll:

Anyway, if I made an "ad hominem" attack because I said that you were obsessed with being right, then you made an "ad hominem" attack against me, right here, when you matter-of-factly state that I'm not sarcastic, and I'm believing in what I even said I don't.

The worst part is that you cry "ad hominem" the INSTANT after you made an "ad hominem" attack of your own. :lol:

You know what, just stop saying "ad hominem". No one cares, and it's not working out very well for you anyway.

You may wish to learn what ad hominem means. Just because I can see through your ruse does mean I've attacked you.

I don't have to answer a question just because you have asked it. I have not made that statement in this thread and thus, it's not part of the conversation. You have made the comments I've asked clarification on. No hypocrisy except on your side. You make statements...avoid your proof of such statements...then make a statement for me and expect me to answer it.:roll: LJS9502_basic

So you don't have to answer just because I ask? Ok then, I don't have to give you proof just because you asked for it...even though I did give proof, or at least my reasons for why I feel the way I do.

It's not part of the topic at hand. You made your statement part of this topic and as such you DO NEED to back it up. Wow...what lengths you go to to wiggle out of your lack of evidence.:lol:

You haven't focused on the specific points. You cut them to change the topic LJS9502_basic

Err...how could I change the subject, if the posts that I cut and respond to, are still part of the subject being discussed? :?

Any topic that I have seen you debate.....you don't focus on the topic. Not just with Tycoon.

Nothing in this post in which to respond....merely another smokescreen of ad hominem attacks in which you hope the casual reader thinks you've made some points when in reality you have not dons so.

LJS9502_basic

That's what YOU do. ;) And stop the ad hominem complaints. Why you need that shield is beyond me. I guess it's your escape route for when things get tough.

Your response was wrong. LJS9502_basic

Of course it was. You said so, therefore, it must be. :roll:

No..it was wrong because belief =/= factual. Period. A concept you fail to grasp.

I want a link showing the government uses fear in collusion with religion to cause fear. That is your stance. LJS9502_basic

No, you asked for a link to my claim that some people give in to their fear of god in court, and are controlled by it. I don't need to prove that some people fear god, because you are already aware of that. I think. If you're not, that's sad.

But you haven't provided the link that this translates to court. That is merely your opinion. You do know that for one who believes in God...He does forgive. So it's incorrect to state that one who knows this can't remedy the situation with God. Again...proof of your statement and not a vague some people fear God as proof.

Your posts to TycoonMike are much like your remarks to me. Evasive, illogical, and biased.

LJS9502_basic

Funny, that's what I would say about your posts. You always evade questions you don't like by hiding behind excuses like, "that's personal", or, "this thread isn't about my beliefs".

The fact that I don't want to argue belief vs facts because it's an incorrect argument not following logical conclusions means I don't want to be bothered with the pointless. Though frankly I don't know why my personal stats are of such concern to you as when you harp on my personal life.

Your posts are illogical because they assume god exists to begin with.

Your posts are biased for the same reason as above.

Jeez, LJ, you actually used to be good at this debating thing. This was the easiest one yet. :roll:

My assumptions are illogical? Okay....then to prove this I suppose you have the evidence the world seeks that prove God doesn't exist. Link away....

My posts are not biased for any reason. I never state that my beliefs are fact.

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

Deity_Slapper

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

And while you are attacking my wisdom and intellect...ad homimen again.....I can see in this thread that the two of you are outnumbered in this subject. So if that's how we're deciding this...the numbers are against the two of you.

You know what, the only part I care about is that you can't claim #1, unless you also believed #2. That's a fact. Focus on that if you can, and stop crying ad hominem. Get over it. Like you never do "ad hominem" anyway. Your hypocracy is getting stale really quick. :roll:

[

He hasn't gotten me on his side. Indeed, I believe he is being just as vague as you are. I haven't targeted him because I recognize the need to keep some order instead of performing a thread-jacking, just as the two of you have.

tycoonmike

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] He dismisses anything that shows up a point he makes. And harps on something unimportant to the discsussion to try to appear he's "winning"...his favorite thing to tell you.Deity_Slapper

^^^ By the way, is this not "ad hominem"?

Yes it is, and it also happens to be hypocracy as well. A double shot of fail for LJ. Darn. :roll:

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

Deity_Slapper

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

Like Funky said:

To believe in God is to imply his existence.

Funky_Llama

^^^ He understands, and I'm sure many others do, too.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Convenient, and yet true. You cannot discuss Christianity with Islamic references. You cannot discuss Christianity with atheistic references, as you have been.

Then so be it. I had no access to such materials until I had already came up with my faith. I don't claim to be original.

tycoonmike

Trying to get people on your side, and turn against your opponent, is evidence of fear that you're losing your grip on the debate. ;)

He hasn't gotten me on his side. Indeed, I believe he is being just as vague as you are. I haven't targeted him because I recognize the need to keep some order instead of performing a thread-jacking, just as the two of you have.

[QUOTE="tycoonmike"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="tycoonmike"]

Convenient, and yet true. You cannot discuss Christianity with Islamic references. You cannot discuss Christianity with atheistic references, as you have been.

Then so be it. I had no access to such materials until I had already came up with my faith. I don't claim to be original.

-Wicked_Sick-

Trying to get people on your side, and turn against your opponent, is evidence of fear that you're losing your grip on the debate. ;)

He hasn't gotten me on his side. Indeed, I believe he is being just as vague as you are. I haven't targeted him because I recognize the need to keep some order instead of performing a thread-jacking, just as the two of you have.

Thread-jacking in the sense that they continually go back and forth accusing one another of charges they're both guilty of. When you mention religion in a thread, you instantly open yourself up to all the religion topics.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

Let me make this simple for you. There are two kinds of statements one can make.
1. I believe in God.
2. God exists.

-Wicked_Sick-

1 = 2, in this case. You know it. Everyone knows it. Stop denying it. It's sad.

You couldn't claim #1, unless you also believed #2.

Like Funky said:

To believe in God is to imply his existence.

Funky_Llama

^^^ He understands, and I'm sure many others do, too.

So, why, in all of your supposed wisdom and intellect, can you not grasp this simple concept, the same way that 2 other people (who are both younger than you) have?

...why?

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] He dismisses anything that shows up a point he makes. And harps on something unimportant to the discsussion to try to appear he's "winning"...his favorite thing to tell you.LJS9502_basic

^^^ By the way, is this not "ad hominem"?

Yes it is, and it also happens to be hypocracy as well. A double shot of fail for LJ. Darn. :roll:

Nope. First of all, you sate that it's "my favorite" thing to say...clearly an exaggeration (as well as an "ad hominem" attack on my character, designed to damage my credibility), not to mention, I already stated that I say it sarcastically to get under your skin.

I've stated that I KNOW THERE ARE NO WINNERS. And there, I just did it again. What are gonna say now? That I'm lying? Gimme a break. :lol:

By the way, is tycoonmike the latest person who just can't understand what you're saying? Since he said you're vague? If so many people agree you're vague, don't you think there's something to it?

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"]

No..you haven't. The money and the pledge are not anything that instills fear. There is no correlation there with your assumption and as such they are not proof. Your court example is not universal in the US and thus also not correlation. Plus, neither of those cases have anything to do with the actual running of the country. Another assumption you made.

Deity_Slapper

Like I said, I'm not typing it again. It's there for anyone who cares to seek it out. You're wasting your time here.

Avoidance...

You may wish to learn what ad hominem means. Just because I can see through your ruse does mean I've attacked you.

LJS9502_basic

Perhaps what you perceive as "ad hominem", is really just ME seeing though YOUR ruse?

I have none...so nothing to see through.;)

It's not part of the topic at hand. You made your statement part of this topic and as such you DO NEED to back it up. Wow...what lengths you go to to wiggle out of your lack of evidence.:lol:

LJS9502_basic

Huh? Making things up is your latest tactic? Wow LJ, the depths you've fallen to... :(

No..you did in fact correlate the church with the government without any evidence. I have not stated in this thread any belief nor any fact in regard to God. But again...avoidance on your part.

Any topic that I have seen you debate.....you don't focus on the topic. Not just with Tycoon. LJS9502_basic

If I never focus on the topic how could we have gotten this far? :lol: By the way, how many claims about my character have you made up to this point? I lost count. I think YOU'RE truly the master of "ad hominem"...not that I actually care, but still...now you know.

You're not discussing the argument anymore. You're only attacking me.

No..it was wrong because belief =/= factual. Period. A concept you fail to grasp. LJS9502_basic

Then that means that every thing you've ever said here is not factual, because it's all based upon your beliefs.

No....nothing is based on beliefs here....on my end anyway. Your end...sure.

But you haven't provided the link that this translates to court. That is merely your opinion. You do know that for one who believes in God...He does forgive. So it's incorrect to state that one who knows this can't remedy the situation with God. Again...proof of your statement and not a vague some people fear God as proof. LJS9502_basic

Go back and look at the original post. All I said was that people fear god. They do. Why you need a link, is truly puzzling.

The government uses the fear of God is what your original said.....nice try..but no.

Though frankly I don't know why my personal stats are of such concern to you as when you harp on my personal life. Bit stalkerish really. LJS9502_basic

Right. :lol:

Because I can TOTALLY track you down by knowing your age, and if you believe if god is real. :roll:

I think you've had one too many bottles of vodka, LJ. You're losing it. Oops! Ad hominem! Oh no...I did it again. :(

You can concentrate on Tycoon...he wants to argue with you. Unless you are going to discuss your initial statement...I'm done.

Thread-jacking in the sense that they continually go back and forth accusing one another of charges they're both guilty of. When you mention religion in a thread, you instantly open yourself up to all the religion topics.

tycoonmike

[QUOTE="Godly_Cure"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The nail has just been hit on it's head.

Deity_Slapper

Do you ever do anything other than assume the role of LJ's sidekick? C'mon... :roll:

Avoidance...

LJS9502_basic

It couldn't be avoidance, if I've already posted my reasons for your interrogations. Your laziness in going back to find it, is not my problem.

I have none...so nothing to see through.;) LJS9502_basic

Pulling the wool over your own eyes. We all know what you do.

No..you did in fact correlate the church with the government without any evidence. LJS9502_basic

Not only did I give my proof, or reasons for why I believe it, but it was such a long and in depth post, that if you missed it, you're blind, or purposely ignoring it. Again, not my problem. There's no reason for me to avoid you, because you're not intimidating in the slightest. Get over yourself dude.

You're not discussing the argument anymore. You're only attacking me. LJS9502_basic

That's ok, because you attack me all the time. :)

Turnabout is fair play, son.

The government uses the fear of God is what your original said.....nice try..but no. LJS9502_basic

I said that at one point, yes, but when you asked for a link, it was directed towards my claim that some people fear god. Should I re-post it? OK I will...next post. Keep an eye out.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="Godly_Cure"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

The nail has just been hit on it's head.

Godly_Cure

Do you ever do anything other than assume the role of LJ's sidekick? C'mon... :roll:

Does LJ pay you to kiss up to him? :lol: Jeez...it doesn't look good. How silly for you to ignore his attacks on me, but focus on what I do. BIAS!

Now go away, please.

Deity_Slapper

Does LJ pay you to kiss up to him? :lol: Jeez...it doesn't look good. How silly for you to ignore his attacks on me, but focus on what I do. BIAS!

Now go away, please.

Deity_Slapper

:lol: Of course not.

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"] [QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] The pledge...doesn't instill fear and court...LJS9502_basic

In some people, it would, because some people admit that they fear god. You lose.

Some people? Now that's what I call vague. Link? Oh...and there you go again proclaiming yourself the "winner". Irony...irony...irony.

There it is. From page 22. All I said was some people fear god. You then ask for a link to that. Common sense is all that's required to understand that a person's legitimate fear of god, combined with swearing to that god in court to tell the truth, would coerce them to tell the truth in court. What is wrong with you? I thought you were all about logic.

By the way, I didn't say I won anything there. I just said that YOU LOST. You lost the imaginary competition that you thought was going on. That's all. You assumed I was claiming victory. :lol:

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"] LJS9502_basic

That's so sad that you need to try and bring others into this. You can't even prove what you're saying, or that they're even on your side. Are you that desperate for support? You must feel like you're losing again... :(

I haven't attacked you. I've attacked your postsLJS9502_basic

No, you made clear assumptions about my character.

It's so obvious that I don't even need to address it anymore. All those "casual readers" that you're so worried about would be able to see this. Darn...

[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"] [QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] The pledge...doesn't instill fear and court...Deity_Slapper

In some people, it would, because some people admit that they fear god. You lose.

Some people? Now that's what I call vague. Link? Oh...and there you go again proclaiming yourself the "winner". Irony...irony...irony.

There it is. From page 22. All I said was some people fear god. You then ask for a link to that. Common sense is all that's required to understand that a person's legitimate fear of god, combined with swearing to that god in court to tell the truth, would coerce them to tell the truth in court. What is wrong with you? I thought you were all about logic.

By the way, I didn't say I won anything there. I just said that YOU LOST. You lost the imaginary competition that you thought was going on. That's all. You assumed I was claiming victory. :lol:

Nope...much older post...

Relgion and government actually do work very closely with each other. Which makes it all the more un-trustworthy.

Deity_Slapper

However, in regard to your post above....that isn't proof. Because you say so.:?

Does LJ pay you to kiss up to him? :lol: Jeez...it doesn't look good. How silly for you to ignore his attacks on me, but focus on what I do. BIAS!

Now go away, please.

Deity_Slapper

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"] [QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] The pledge...doesn't instill fear and court...LJS9502_basic

In some people, it would, because some people admit that they fear god. You lose.

Some people? Now that's what I call vague. Link? Oh...and there you go again proclaiming yourself the "winner". Irony...irony...irony.

There it is. From page 22. All I said was some people fear god. You then ask for a link to that. Common sense is all that's required to understand that a person's legitimate fear of god, combined with swearing to that god in court to tell the truth, would coerce them to tell the truth in court. What is wrong with you? I thought you were all about logic.

By the way, I didn't say I won anything there. I just said that YOU LOST. You lost the imaginary competition that you thought was going on. That's all. You assumed I was claiming victory. :lol:

Nope...much older post...

Nope. That was the one you were referring to. It was from that post onward that we went back and forth about you wanting a link to that. Look you even said, "Link?" in that very post. Any of those "casuals" that you're worried about could follow our conversation from that point and see that that's what you were trying to get a link of. You're digging deep for ways out of this, I see...that's enough for me to tell me that you're worried about being "owned". :lol:

[QUOTE="Deity_Slapper"]

Relgion and government actually do work very closely with each other. Which makes it all the more un-trustworthy.

LJS9502_basic

However, in regard to your post above....that isn't proof. Because you say so.:?

I gave, to the best of my ability, the reasons why I said what I said in that post. If it wasn't good enough for you, oh well. I don't live to please you. And I'm definately not playing your game. Which is exactly why, NO, saying that you lost is not the same as calling myself the winner. You're playing a game that I wasn't, and I was letting you know that you failed in that game. It doesn't mean I was playing too.

If I walked up to the Penguins after they lost the Stanley Cup Finals, and told them, "You guys lost! Ha ha!", that doesn't mean that I won the cup. :roll:

Seriously, LJ, you're really stretching now.

I haven't noticed him insulting you personally but that's all I've seen you do to him.:Godly_Cure

Well well well, I didn't know there was a sale on those bias goggles going on. Some one else had a pair of those earlier...

How you could only see one attack, and not the other, WHEN IT TAKES TWO TO ARGUE, is blatant, obvious favoritism, and bias. You're so obviously slanted in one direction, that when you claim you're not, everyone reading this is probably giving one giant collective eye-roll, and side-to-side head shake.

I guess you guys are avoiding this thread because you're out of excuses?

Does this mean that I "won" the game that I wasn't even playing? Awesome!

Deity_Slapper

I'm not even sure what the game is any more. :cry: