Girls have it too easy

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hokies1313

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#51 hokies1313
Member since 2005 • 13919 Posts

Uh....What are girls? :|

Anyway, each side has their own problems, you just have to realize that, accept it, and move toward your goal in a constructive manner.

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Pearl_of_Egypt

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#52 Pearl_of_Egypt
Member since 2007 • 4073 Posts
wow this thread is so stupid...
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rcignoni

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#53 rcignoni
Member since 2004 • 8863 Posts
Both sexes have it the same.
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Guiltfeeder566

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#54 Guiltfeeder566
Member since 2005 • 10068 Posts
Because society sucks.
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wemhim

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#55 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts
You're wrong, the real problem is, most men have nothing wrong with casual sex, lots of women do. I'm not stereotyping, this is only sometimes. But almost every guy I know would have sex with any girl that would say, 'Wanna have sex?". I'm talking about sex though, not relationships.
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#56 dhyce
Member since 2003 • 5609 Posts

They don't have to do anything to find guys. All they have to do is exist and the guys who approach first get the girls. n_kors

In highschool land, that generalization sort of works. But your perspective is so from the outside of what's going on. You're using examples you see at school? Remember, things are actually going on in these peopes lives you're not seeing, these two become friends, then consensually decide to date. Your description of the situation is pretty naive. Yes, the occasional young woman will immediately 'fall in lust' with a guy and the guy will do the same for her, so they'll decide to date quickly. And vice versa, of course. Outside of the land of puppy love, it's a very deep search for both sexes.

That's why most attractive girils are taken.n_kors

Attractive is subjective. I know the attractive cliche you're talking about, but remember, there are people looking for things that look nothing like the cliche. I could give a very long speech as to why the stereotypically 'attractive' young ladies are often taken, but I'll save it unless you or someone else would like me to. It's actually pretty simple.

Girls don't hold out for the guy who best fist their needs, they just go with the first guy who makes them laugh.n_kors

Laughter = a good time. Young people are mostly looking for a good time. The logic is, "If I date so and so, the reltionship will be a fun time filled with laughter." Are you really expecting bubbly people to pick the deep thinking loner? It's not that they go for the first person that comes along and makes them laugh either, again you're forgetting the fact that these people have lives, it seems to me anyway. They become friends and consensually decide to date. It's not that it isn't difficult for young girls to find a date, it's just that happy bubbly young people attract happy bubbly young people and have a good time together. Keeping in mind that most of the time these relationships end of failing.

I'm mostly referring to younger, teen to early 20s girls.n_kors

I noticed. :P

I do not believe that it is the men who are the pigs, in this day and age I think it is the women who are the pigs.n_kors

How so? Women have become, in this society, (especially a certain promoted stereotype) the in demand partner. It use to be men, as they provided for and generally were needed by women as soon as possible. But now, society has women on a throne high in the sky, because we no longer need a husband to survive, we're independant and practically treated like gods by the media, so things have switched around. Does that make us "pigs"? No, we can't help how the media portrays us. So women can be more choosy then we use to be for men, (or women) I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

Women get to choose, and they choose whoever comes along first.n_kors

No, not really. And again, it's consensual.

Guys don't have the luxury of choosing which girl comes along first because girls make a habbit of ignoring guys unless they are approached by guys.n_kors

Highschool politics much? People of both sexes generally don't pay much attention to those they do not know. People meet in school, work, through interaction become friends, and consensually decide to date. Your descriptions seem very secluded. Both sexes have difficulty finding the right person, we're both awkward sometimes, and some of us rush in thinking it will be a good time, or because being in a relationship is the thing to do. Bottom line is you're totally off base, look outside of the young crowd and at the real world.

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OfficialBed

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#57 OfficialBed
Member since 2005 • 17668 Posts
umm...no
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GettingTired

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#58 GettingTired
Member since 2006 • 5994 Posts
You're wrong, the real problem is, most men have nothing wrong with casual sex, lots of women do. I'm not stereotyping, this is only sometimes. But almost every guy I know would have sex with any girl that would say, 'Wanna have sex?". I'm talking about sex though, not relationships.wemhim

No, it seems that way because men are honest about it. They don't lie and pretend they are not attracted to ones physical appearance, and make their true intent quite clear. Women can be just as vain, if not more vain. They just put a veil over themselves to decieve everyone else about who they truly are.
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wemhim

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#59 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts
[QUOTE="wemhim"]You're wrong, the real problem is, most men have nothing wrong with casual sex, lots of women do. I'm not stereotyping, this is only sometimes. But almost every guy I know would have sex with any girl that would say, 'Wanna have sex?". I'm talking about sex though, not relationships.GettingTired

No, it seems that way because men are honest about it. They don't lie and pretend they are not attracted to ones physical appearance, and make their true intent quite clear. Women can be just as vain, if not more vain. They just put a veil over themselves to decieve everyone else about who they truly are.

That's true. I guess it's a lot to do with society congratulating men for getting ladies, and calling women sluts for enjoying sex. Which is ridiculous, and extremely counter productive to true happiness. If only it was like Ancient Greece with the knowledge, and organization and equality of now(Women have more rights for example). I'm amazed at how depressed and angry and anxiety filled society has made people, we need to stop hating everything about ourselves.
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BuckWheatJiggz

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#60 BuckWheatJiggz
Member since 2008 • 328 Posts

thats not really true, times are changing and even girls are becoming the ones who make the first move.

facts are though that life is much easier for men than it is for girls. We still make something like 1.50 more by the hour than women. abuse against women is the most committed crime in the world. if a man and a woman are in line for a promotion, the man usually gets the promotion, men have always been the rulers of nations, regions (for the most part anyway)

men don't get pregnant or deliver babies. men usually have a higher self esteem, they don't worry about their looks or weight nearly as much as women do, nor are our looks half as important as it is for women.

women depend on their looks to date, to get jobs, to manipulate. not saying that those who lack all of these things can't progress in life, it certainly makes things much easier.

like it or not, men have it a lot better than women... sorry ladies :(

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#61 n_kors
Member since 2005 • 1785 Posts
[QUOTE="n_kors"]

They don't have to do anything to find guys. All they have to do is exist and the guys who approach first get the girls. dhyce

In highschool land, that generalization sort of works. But your perspective is so from the outside of what's going on. You're using examples you see at school? Remember, things are actually going on in these peopes lives you're not seeing, these two become friends, then consensually decide to date. Your description of the situation is pretty naive. Yes, the occasional young woman will immediately 'fall in lust' with a guy and the guy will do the same for her, so they'll decide to date quickly. And vice versa, of course. Outside of the land of puppy love, it's a very deep search for both sexes.

That's why most attractive girils are taken.n_kors

Attractive is subjective. I know the attractive cliche you're talking about, but remember, there are people looking for things that look nothing like the cliche. I could give a very long speech as to why the stereotypically 'attractive' young ladies are often taken, but I'll save it unless you or someone else would like me to. It's actually pretty simple.

Girls don't hold out for the guy who best fist their needs, they just go with the first guy who makes them laugh.n_kors

Laughter = a good time. Young people are mostly looking for a good time. The logic is, "If I date so and so, the reltionship will be a fun time filled with laughter." Are you really expecting bubbly people to pick the deep thinking loner? It's not that they go for the first person that comes along and makes them laugh either, again you're forgetting the fact that these people have lives, it seems to me anyway. They become friends and consensually decide to date. It's not that it isn't difficult for young girls to find a date, it's just that happy bubbly young people attract happy bubbly young people and have a good time together. Keeping in mind that most of the time these relationships end of failing.

I'm mostly referring to younger, teen to early 20s girls.n_kors

I noticed. :P

I do not believe that it is the men who are the pigs, in this day and age I think it is the women who are the pigs.n_kors

How so? Women have become, in this society, (especially a certain promoted stereotype) the in demand partner. It use to be men, as they provided for and generally were needed by women as soon as possible. But now, society has women on a throne high in the sky, because we no longer need a husband to survive, we're independant and practically treated like gods by the media, so things have switched around. Does that make us "pigs"? No, we can't help how the media portrays us. So women can be more choosy then we use to be for men, (or women) I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

Women get to choose, and they choose whoever comes along first.n_kors

No, not really. And again, it's consensual.

Guys don't have the luxury of choosing which girl comes along first because girls make a habbit of ignoring guys unless they are approached by guys.n_kors

Highschool politics much? People of both sexes generally don't pay much attention to those they do not know. People meet in school, work, through interaction become friends, and consensually decide to date. Your descriptions seem very secluded. Both sexes have difficulty finding the right person, we're both awkward sometimes, and some of us rush in thinking it will be a good time, or because being in a relationship is the thing to do. Bottom line is you're totally off base, look outside of the young crowd and at the real world.

As far as which sex approaches who, it is predominately the male who has to approach, and initiate. Trust me, I've tried to be "picked up" by girls before, and it is false, non-existent practice. Girls do not talk to guys. They sit around and wait for guys to talk to them. This is science I'm talking here. It's just the way we function.

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Kikouken

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#62 Kikouken
Member since 2006 • 15913 Posts
What are you blabbering about :|
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#63 -TheSecondSign-
Member since 2007 • 9303 Posts

Yeah fat chicks just show off some of that belly and dudes are all over em, aren't they?

:lol:

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Andrew_Xavier

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#64 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts

Girls don't have it easy,
I could go into the entire anatomic structure of that, but, you know, I'd be modded (again),
and I've been modded a ton lately.

Super attractive girls have it the hardest, because guys are afraid to talk to them, seriously,
both genders feel attraction the same way, I've had gf since I was 14, with only a couple
months off, and I'm a dork, it's not hard dude, no effort required, just see who you feel
compatible with, and go for it.

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wemhim

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#65 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts
[QUOTE="dhyce"][QUOTE="n_kors"]

They don't have to do anything to find guys. All they have to do is exist and the guys who approach first get the girls. n_kors

In highschool land, that generalization sort of works. But your perspective is so from the outside of what's going on. You're using examples you see at school? Remember, things are actually going on in these peopes lives you're not seeing, these two become friends, then consensually decide to date. Your description of the situation is pretty naive. Yes, the occasional young woman will immediately 'fall in lust' with a guy and the guy will do the same for her, so they'll decide to date quickly. And vice versa, of course. Outside of the land of puppy love, it's a very deep search for both sexes.

That's why most attractive girils are taken.n_kors

Attractive is subjective. I know the attractive cliche you're talking about, but remember, there are people looking for things that look nothing like the cliche. I could give a very long speech as to why the stereotypically 'attractive' young ladies are often taken, but I'll save it unless you or someone else would like me to. It's actually pretty simple.

Girls don't hold out for the guy who best fist their needs, they just go with the first guy who makes them laugh.n_kors

Laughter = a good time. Young people are mostly looking for a good time. The logic is, "If I date so and so, the reltionship will be a fun time filled with laughter." Are you really expecting bubbly people to pick the deep thinking loner? It's not that they go for the first person that comes along and makes them laugh either, again you're forgetting the fact that these people have lives, it seems to me anyway. They become friends and consensually decide to date. It's not that it isn't difficult for young girls to find a date, it's just that happy bubbly young people attract happy bubbly young people and have a good time together. Keeping in mind that most of the time these relationships end of failing.

I'm mostly referring to younger, teen to early 20s girls.n_kors

I noticed. :P

I do not believe that it is the men who are the pigs, in this day and age I think it is the women who are the pigs.n_kors

How so? Women have become, in this society, (especially a certain promoted stereotype) the in demand partner. It use to be men, as they provided for and generally were needed by women as soon as possible. But now, society has women on a throne high in the sky, because we no longer need a husband to survive, we're independant and practically treated like gods by the media, so things have switched around. Does that make us "pigs"? No, we can't help how the media portrays us. So women can be more choosy then we use to be for men, (or women) I fail to see how that is a bad thing.

Women get to choose, and they choose whoever comes along first.n_kors

No, not really. And again, it's consensual.

Guys don't have the luxury of choosing which girl comes along first because girls make a habbit of ignoring guys unless they are approached by guys.n_kors

Highschool politics much? People of both sexes generally don't pay much attention to those they do not know. People meet in school, work, through interaction become friends, and consensually decide to date. Your descriptions seem very secluded. Both sexes have difficulty finding the right person, we're both awkward sometimes, and some of us rush in thinking it will be a good time, or because being in a relationship is the thing to do. Bottom line is you're totally off base, look outside of the young crowd and at the real world.

As far as which sex approaches who, it is predominately the male who has to approach, and initiate. Trust me, I've tried to be "picked up" by girls before, and it is false, non-existent practice. Girls do not talk to guys. They sit around and wait for guys to talk to them. This is science I'm talking here. It's just the way we function.

No, it's a meme, not science, and a Highschool meme at that. The real issue is casual sex, the lack thereof.
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MissRiotmaker

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#66 MissRiotmaker
Member since 2007 • 8593 Posts
Uhm...nomastersword007
Pretty much summed it up. I don't wait for just anyone, your analogy needs a little work.
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MissRiotmaker

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#67 MissRiotmaker
Member since 2007 • 8593 Posts
Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.
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#68 gamah_killah
Member since 2006 • 13020 Posts
Girls don't have it easy. And some of them are pretty.
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wemhim

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#69 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts

Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.MissRiotmaker
I wish we were allowed to ban heretics.

(I'm not serious).

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#70 MissRiotmaker
Member since 2007 • 8593 Posts

[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"]Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.wemhim

I wish we were allowed to ban heretics.

(I'm not serious).

I wish we were allowed to ban the non-serious. (I'm not serious either).
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Andrew_Xavier

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#71 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts

Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.MissRiotmaker

My gf asked me out too, I was actually too chicken to make the first move,
it's lovely when that happens.

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#72 MissRiotmaker
Member since 2007 • 8593 Posts

[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"]Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.Andrew_Xavier

My gf asked me out too, I was actually too chicken to make the first move,
it's lovely when that happens.

Same thing with Luke. Before we got together I had just met him and he was the shy type.
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wemhim

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#73 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts
[QUOTE="wemhim"]

[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"]Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.MissRiotmaker

I wish we were allowed to ban heretics.

(I'm not serious).

I wish we were allowed to ban the non-serious. (I'm not serious either).

But seriously, it seems common to have women and men ask one another out, it's not the 40s anymore.
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#74 whos_next000
Member since 2006 • 11892 Posts
Yeah, but they have a period.
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#75 clash76-grunger
Member since 2008 • 1203 Posts

I'm sure it's easy for the attractive girls, sure, but what about those who no one's interested in?SolidSnake35

They are hopeless XD

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#76 inyourface_12
Member since 2006 • 14757 Posts
well for attractive girls maybe, other girls id say its even worse because even ugy guys dream about the hot girls and not them.
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#77 blackngold29
Member since 2004 • 14137 Posts
I've never seen so many guys stand up for women, but I must agree you are very wrong sir.
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DarKre

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#78 DarKre
Member since 2003 • 9529 Posts
I think your just mad you cant get any girls :/
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#79 krunkmastax
Member since 2004 • 36027 Posts
I think he's right. Think about it. Do attractive 10 out of 10 girls ever get turned down by guys? I think not.
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#80 Pearl_of_Egypt
Member since 2007 • 4073 Posts
for people saying attractive girls have it easy, that's not true either. because then they have to be careful guys aren't just approaching them solely because they're attractive and want to fool around with them. and then most guys just assume they're not good enough for them and just never even bother to try.
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#81 Devil_Huntress
Member since 2004 • 24464 Posts
Girls don't have it easy actually. :|
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#82 Thechaninator
Member since 2005 • 5187 Posts

Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.MissRiotmaker

Why can't more woman be like you and step up?

I have had 1 girlfriend and that was in 6th grade and she asked me. I quite honestly CAN'T ask girls out right now because I am hung up on these anxiety issues I have. I am very sure I have avoidant personality disorder along with general anxiety disorder and social phobia and am not in therapy so I am trying to fight it on my own. A girl actually expressing some interest would really help but that just doesn't happen....

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#83 MissRiotmaker
Member since 2007 • 8593 Posts

[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"]Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.Thechaninator

Why can't more woman be like you and step up?

I have had 1 girlfriend and that was in 6th grade and she asked me. I quite honestly CAN'T ask girls out right now because I am hung up on these anxiety issues I have. I am very sure I have avoidant personality disorder along with general anxiety disorder and social phobia and am not in therapy so I am trying to fight it on my own. A girl actually expressing some interest would really help but that just doesn't happen....

Women are distinct individuals. We're not a whole. We all do as we choose, and I choose to be how I am.
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#84 MissRiotmaker
Member since 2007 • 8593 Posts
for people saying attractive girls have it easy, that's not true either. because then they have to be careful guys aren't just approaching them solely because they're attractive and want to fool around with them. and then most guys just assume they're not good enough for them and just never even bother to try.Pearl_of_Egypt
I'll be honest with you Pearl. I want to take advantage of your attractiveness... :|
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#85 krunkmastax
Member since 2004 • 36027 Posts

Girls don't have it easy actually. :|Devil_Huntress

Please elaborate.

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#86 Vyse_Legends
Member since 2007 • 9387 Posts
Girls don't have it easy actually. :|Devil_Huntress
Especially on the internet.:|
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#87 Thechaninator
Member since 2005 • 5187 Posts
[QUOTE="Thechaninator"]

[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"]Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.MissRiotmaker

Why can't more woman be like you and step up?

I have had 1 girlfriend and that was in 6th grade and she asked me. I quite honestly CAN'T ask girls out right now because I am hung up on these anxiety issues I have. I am very sure I have avoidant personality disorder along with general anxiety disorder and social phobia and am not in therapy so I am trying to fight it on my own. A girl actually expressing some interest would really help but that just doesn't happen....

Women are distinct individuals. We're not a whole. We all do as we choose, and I choose to be how I am.

I just don't get why women rarely ask guys out......

Hell, I could pick up on some hints. The most I have managed was calling a friend of mine beautiful and that had me freaking for a little.....

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#88 Pearl_of_Egypt
Member since 2007 • 4073 Posts

I think he's right. Think about it. Do attractive 10 out of 10 girls ever get turned down by guys? I think not.KrunkMastaX

of course they do, everyone can face rejection even when you're good looking. and 10 on 10 girls have more chances that the guy is just trying to get into their pants for a quick one night stand over having an actual relationship. no one has it easy when it comes to dating, simple as that.

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#89 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts
[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"][QUOTE="Thechaninator"]

[QUOTE="MissRiotmaker"]Which puts me on the topic of my current relationship. I made the first move and not him and we turned out just fine.Thechaninator

Why can't more woman be like you and step up?

I have had 1 girlfriend and that was in 6th grade and she asked me. I quite honestly CAN'T ask girls out right now because I am hung up on these anxiety issues I have. I am very sure I have avoidant personality disorder along with general anxiety disorder and social phobia and am not in therapy so I am trying to fight it on my own. A girl actually expressing some interest would really help but that just doesn't happen....

Women are distinct individuals. We're not a whole. We all do as we choose, and I choose to be how I am.

I just don't get why women rarely ask guys out......

Hell, I could pick up on some hints. The most I have managed was calling a friend of mine beautiful and that had me freaking for a little.....

Yeah, it's hard for me too. I'm pretty much certain that I'll never ask anyone out.
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wemhim

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#90 wemhim
Member since 2005 • 16110 Posts

[QUOTE="KrunkMastaX"]I think he's right. Think about it. Do attractive 10 out of 10 girls ever get turned down by guys? I think not.Pearl_of_Egypt

of course they do, everyone can face rejection even when you're good looking. and 10 on 10 girls have more chances that the guy is just trying to get into their pants for a quick one night stand over having an actual relationship. no one has it easy when it comes to dating, simple as that.

Unless of course they like casual sex(I do), but I guess I'm stuck in the BCs, all you youngsters being born after the fall of the Roman empire! But in terms of dating, and not sexxx. Yeah, everyone has it hard, such as the rich person, who knows if they're in it for their money or not?
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krunkmastax

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#91 krunkmastax
Member since 2004 • 36027 Posts

of course they do, everyone can face rejection even when you're good looking. and 10 on 10 girls have more chances that the guy is just trying to get into their pants for a quick one night stand over having an actual relationship. no one has it easy when it comes to dating, simple as that.

Pearl_of_Egypt

The same can be said for an attractive guy being gone after for just sex. Girls aren't innocent you know.

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kruesader

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#92 kruesader
Member since 2006 • 6443 Posts
[QUOTE="Pearl_of_Egypt"]

of course they do, everyone can face rejection even when you're good looking. and 10 on 10 girls have more chances that the guy is just trying to get into their pants for a quick one night stand over having an actual relationship. no one has it easy when it comes to dating, simple as that.

KrunkMastaX

The same can be said for an attractive guy being gone after for just sex. Girls aren't innocent you know.

They act far more innocent than guys.

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Devil_Huntress

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#93 Devil_Huntress
Member since 2004 • 24464 Posts

[QUOTE="Devil_Huntress"]Girls don't have it easy actually. :|KrunkMastaX

Please elaborate.

I just think girls deal with more issues then guys.

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krunkmastax

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#94 krunkmastax
Member since 2004 • 36027 Posts

I just think girls deal with more issues then guys.

Devil_Huntress

Well then elaborate. What do you mean exactly?

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Andrew_Xavier

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#95 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts
[QUOTE="Devil_Huntress"]

I just think girls deal with more issues then guys.

KrunkMastaX

Well then elaborate. What do you mean exactly?

Simple:
Many girls kind of get it harsh on both ends,
if they date too much, they are labelled as sluts, even if they haven't had sex,
if they don't date, they are labelled as frigid, even if they aren't at all,
plus the physiological stuff I was mentioning earlier,
it can be a lose-lose state for girls, especially in high school and college.

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DarCowAlways

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#96 DarCowAlways
Member since 2007 • 571 Posts

Actually I'm just swimming in females mattmaul5488

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Pearl_of_Egypt

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#97 Pearl_of_Egypt
Member since 2007 • 4073 Posts
[QUOTE="Pearl_of_Egypt"]

of course they do, everyone can face rejection even when you're good looking. and 10 on 10 girls have more chances that the guy is just trying to get into their pants for a quick one night stand over having an actual relationship. no one has it easy when it comes to dating, simple as that.

KrunkMastaX

The same can be said for an attractive guy being gone after for just sex. Girls aren't innocent you know.

exactly, like I said it isn't easy for anyone.

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Devil_Huntress

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#98 Devil_Huntress
Member since 2004 • 24464 Posts
[QUOTE="Devil_Huntress"]

I just think girls deal with more issues then guys.

KrunkMastaX

Well then elaborate. What do you mean exactly?

Girls stress too much over things. Like about their self-image. They have to make sure they look cute when they go out because you just never know who's looking. They sometimes can't do things that they want because they'll be labeled the wrong way. You know those lovely double standards. Like a guy can do just about anything and it wouldn't be frowned upon but on a girl it would because a girl is suppose to be/act a certain way.
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krunkmastax

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#99 krunkmastax
Member since 2004 • 36027 Posts
My friend tells me "just do this just do that talk to them rap to them" like its easy when its not. It takes alot of courage for a shy guy like me to put myself out there like that and risk getting shot down. Which is what happened to me a few days ago. I just wish girls weren't so confusing. Hell my brother had someone for VDay and most of my friends...and it stung and hurt that I didn't have anyone for like the....(insert number here) teenth time in a row.
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Andrew_Xavier

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#100 Andrew_Xavier
Member since 2007 • 9625 Posts
[QUOTE="KrunkMastaX"][QUOTE="Devil_Huntress"]

I just think girls deal with more issues then guys.

Devil_Huntress

Well then elaborate. What do you mean exactly?

Girls stress too much over things. Like about their self-image.

Gotta tell you Demon, guys, well me anyways, stress like crazy about self-image and looking good when out in public, it's a major stressor, expensive ass hoodies and jeans and such wouldn't be made for guys if guys didn't care about appearance :D