I'm pretty tolerant but they can just fvck off.
Global call for Islam across the world
This topic is locked from further discussion.
[QUOTE="omho88"] First you just confirmed my point, coz since you claim that sharia is the basic law for all these countries yet some of them are completely different from eachother ... which means complete different understanding to the same thing that could work the best for each country ..... not all of them work as great as the other. But I still dun get what's bothering you with 1400 years old text .... I do realize many stuff have changed but the core remains ....you are a human, you need some basic laws to protect you from others and vice versa .... you have urges, you needs some limits to protect you from becoming an animal .... you need morals .... all of these combined are religions .... things like that don't change by time. I dun see SaudiFuryok let me give a short example why i vouch for secular as a basis for law. Anything that is positive about Shariah law exists already within secularism. Anything negative that can be said about Shariah (by Muslims and non), does NOT under secular law. I don't agree with wife beating, i don't agree with honor killing, don't agree in treating religious minorities as 2nd class citizens, i don't believe in treating apostates as though their traitors and need to have a chat with a sword. I abhore them. Sure, can an apostate be fvcking annoying, yeah. they totally can. as the phrase goes "there is no worse enemy then a former friend/ally". But i'd rather they be annoying as fvck then dead. for instance with apostasy, the idea of killing apostates really came up in a time of war. During the wars Muhammed and Abu Bakr fought if you converted to Islam you could be spared death, or enslavement (something that every tribe and region was doing - not an excuse, just an explanation). Well.. what do you think some people are going to do? they're gonna save their sorry hides from meeting the sword. The Radi war that Abu Bakr fought was largely one over money, but because in those times (and this is why secularism seems alien to Muslims) the tribe Abu Bakr fought refused to pay the zakat (charity) and so Abu Bakr's army marched. Back in those days religion and politics were one and the same. During those times when people converted, they'd do it save their own hides and some would say shout back that they lied. So ok. what do we get? If your wanting to follow Shariah, and that means deriving laws from Quran, Hadiths (actions of Muhammed), preceding caliphs and other notable imam's, you now have literally centuries of precedents saying apostasy = death, because of what Muhammed and Abu Bakur did during times of war. but the primary reason why i'm for secular law, even as a Muslim is this. religion that is enforced and made compulsory and not our of personal sincerity is a farce. There should be no compulsion to follow it. I find it ironic that (and forgive me fellow Muslims if this hits a nerve) the Quran calls out and admonishes the Meccan Pagans for holding onto their religion merely because it was their forefathers religion. and this was said when Muhammed was trying to set up a co-existing religion amongst his fellow people in the Pagan-majority Mecca, and he and his followers were chased out of the city limits to starve and be discriminated against (Khadijah his first wife dying during this period) before marching off to Yathrib (soon to be called Medina). How ironic things seem to me when looking at the Muslim world today.....
I do respect ur opinion and I am more libral than conservative myself.
Arguing each point will take alot of time, I will just discuss the general lines, The reda wars had its circumstanses, the death of the prophet was a major hit to Islam, and many late followers had their faith weakened sooner after the prophet's death .... not to mention many converters actually formed like clusters of anti islamic organizations ... I dun denied that part of the war was economic but without these wars at that time .... the islamic nation would be seriously threatened from almost everywhere .... it's the explaination I have and I believe in ..... nowadays Islam is well established, there is no need for pursuing any apostles, nor fighting to spread Islam.
I dun wanna argue in beating wives, alot of misconceptions regarding the Quarnic verse and I am not with beating wives either, but I just wanna say that the prophet himself never beat any animal, servant, wife, child ...etc .... nuf said ..... and for the record the wife has the right to ask for divorce if got beaten, according to what most islamic scientists agreed on.
I dun get ur last point, what Quranic verse are you talking about? And I wouldn't say that islamic world 2day is the one to make an example of it.
all your gonna get from Zeviander's link are hadiths that are critical of Islam. If you want that, go ahead click it, but i figure i'd be FAIR and send you to all the hadiths not just cherry picking what i wanna show.SaudiFuryQuoting in context isn't cherry picking. The Wiki organizes critical points into articles by subject or person. It links to a complete source of all hadith and Muslim scripture. But you wouldn't know that because I doubt you spent that much time on the site.
GrayF0X786am i proud of the government of Saudi? some things yes. they've built the country and brought it's infrastructure (and continue to) into the 21st century. The monarchy ended slavery, and opened up colleges (and still opening more and more and for different fields) for both men and women. but aside from that not much. it's still struggling to want to be living in the year 600 AD and live in the year 2012, and to honest... you cannot have it both ways.
corruption is rampant, but what do you expect in an absolute monarchy.
If you believe that the end of times is near because of prophecy, that is your prerogative. I believe people have the power themselves to make change for the better, not waiting for a miracle on an uknown date to come and fix everything up.
[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]all your gonna get from Zeviander's link are hadiths that are critical of Islam. If you want that, go ahead click it, but i figure i'd be FAIR and send you to all the hadiths not just cherry picking what i wanna show.ZevianderQuoting in context isn't cherry picking. The Wiki organizes critical points into articles by subject or person. It links to a complete source of all hadith and Muslim scripture. But you wouldn't know that because I doubt you spent that much time on the site. I have known about that site long before you even presented it on this site. the fact is, that site's reason for existence is to be a forum for criticism of the religion, and that's fine, i offered another source instead. you are perfectly within your right to post it, and i am in mine.
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]SaudiFuryam i proud of the government of Saudi? some things yes. they've build the country and brought it's infrastructure (and continue to) into the 21st century. The monarchy ended slavery, and opened up colleges (and still opening more and more and for different fields) for both men and women. but aside from that not much. it's still struggling to want to be living in the year 600 AD and live in the year 2012, and to honest... you cannot have it both ways. If you believe that the end of times is near because of prophecy, that is your prerogative. I believe people have the power themselves to make change for the better, not waiting for a miracle on an uknown date to come and fix everything up. the question would be how many people in Saudi Arabia want to move away from theocracy? I know from personal experience, there are alot of things that seem to bother westerners about various countries, but which the locals for the most part, don't care for.
[QUOTE="omho88"]As I said, in Egypt Islam is in its best shapes .... We do accept christions testimony in courts as long as he/she is credible and sane .... Christians dun exceed 10'/. of the population .... are you expecting them to have as many churches as muslim's mosques ?[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]
nonsense, and you know it, minorities were not equal, there were various laws agaisnt them, usually to humiliate them, everything from heavy restrictions on construction of houses of worship , to limiting where they could live, to not being able to testify against Muslims in a court of law
Darkman2007
There is nothing in islam that really forbid you from building ur own place and pray for God in it? just to be fair .... there are some issues with the non ibrahimic religions which I dun like how the country handles them .... but we are debating it rightnow !!
Egypt is one country, are you honestly trying to use the standard of one country and apply it to an area from Morocco to Indonesia? really? in an area that large, there are huge differences, although even Egypt had its times when minorities were oppressed. and yes, traditionally there were restrictions on how , where and how much , minorities could build (that is why for instance, Jerusalem used to have alot of synagouges built underground, simply because by law, Jewish worship houses were not allowed to be higher than Mosques) now you could argue that things are better now, and in the case of Egypt, you may well be right. but the fact is , Christians are still leaving the Middle East in large numbers, not to mention the Jews who left 50-60 years ago for the most part..So what? this proves that Islam can be good when put in good hands .
And every country has its ups and downs .... USA, ISRAEL .. all countries have its ups and downs ... discrimination can be everywhere.
You are arguing historical events at certain time from some unknown ppl and generalize it over a complete history of a major religion ... c'mon .... be fair once plzzz. I dun know what kind of restrictions are you talking about but in Egypt there are non .
Christians and Muslims are leaving the ME in large numbers not because of religious oppression, but because there are chances of better life in the west, more money, less POLITICAL oppression .. etc .... the Islamic brotherhood is in power rightnow and yet all those who have been abandoned for years coz of the libral Mubarak regime can return safely to Egypt .... many libral returned to Egypt after the revolution.
Jews were much more oppressed in Europe than the ME, Holocuat anyone!!!!! in fact many jews lived and had major business in Egypt b4 Israel .... then you know what happened ... I won't bother you thinking ... Israel happened !!!!
I'm perfectly fine not being religious, thank you.
Out of all the major religions right now, that's the last I'd want to "take over the world".
[QUOTE="SaudiFury"]all your gonna get from Zeviander's link are hadiths that are critical of Islam. If you want that, go ahead click it, but i figure i'd be FAIR and send you to all the hadiths not just cherry picking what i wanna show.ZevianderQuoting in context isn't cherry picking. The Wiki organizes critical points into articles by subject or person. It links to a complete source of all hadith and Muslim scripture. But you wouldn't know that because I doubt you spent that much time on the site. I find it difficult to respond to evrything in the article .... understanding the verse in english is also troublesome for me ... can you choose what is the most crucial points?
Egypt is one country, are you honestly trying to use the standard of one country and apply it to an area from Morocco to Indonesia? really? in an area that large, there are huge differences, although even Egypt had its times when minorities were oppressed. and yes, traditionally there were restrictions on how , where and how much , minorities could build (that is why for instance, Jerusalem used to have alot of synagouges built underground, simply because by law, Jewish worship houses were not allowed to be higher than Mosques) now you could argue that things are better now, and in the case of Egypt, you may well be right. but the fact is , Christians are still leaving the Middle East in large numbers, not to mention the Jews who left 50-60 years ago for the most part..[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="omho88"] As I said, in Egypt Islam is in its best shapes .... We do accept christions testimony in courts as long as he/she is credible and sane .... Christians dun exceed 10'/. of the population .... are you expecting them to have as many churches as muslim's mosques ?
There is nothing in islam that really forbid you from building ur own place and pray for God in it? just to be fair .... there are some issues with the non ibrahimic religions which I dun like how the country handles them .... but we are debating it rightnow !!
omho88
So what? this proves that Islam can be good when put in good hands .
And every country has its ups and downs .... USA, ISRAEL .. all countries have its ups and downs ... discrimination can be everywhere.
You are arguing historical events at certain time from some unknown ppl and generalize it over a complete history of a major religion ... c'mon .... be fair once plzzz. I dun know what kind of restrictions are you talking about but in Egypt there are non .
Christians and Muslims are leaving the ME in large numbers not because of religious oppression, but because there are chances of better life in the west, more money, less POLITICAL oppression .. etc .... the Islamic brotherhood is in power rightnow and yet all those who have been abandoned for years coz of the libral Mubarak regime can return safely to Egypt .... many libral returned to Egypt after the revolution.
Jews were much more oppressed in Europe than the ME, Holocuat anyone!!!!! in fact many jews lived and had major business in Egypt b4 Israel .... then you know what happened ... I won't bother you thinking ... Israel happened !!!!
it also proves can be intolerant, life was not great, and applying what is happening now in one country, to the current situation or history of such a large area is just stupid, Egypt is not the centre of Islam (despite Al Azhar being a very important place) , nor is it the only Muslim country. the problem with that statement is that figures show otherwise, in both Iraq and Egypt, despite dictators being removed, you had an increase in the numbers of Christians leaving , politics is only part of it. as for the Jews, saying you were better than genocidal Europe is not saying much , thats like saying "Im smarter than the dumbest kid at school" , its not something to boast. and yes, then Israel happened.....so what? the Arabs used this opportunity to chase the Jews out of their country (or in some cases just expell them), and took their property, it shows me that the Jews were not protected , but were at the mercy of the Muslims, thats not a favourable situation.I find it difficult to respond to evrything in the article .... understanding the verse in english is also troublesome for me ... can you choose what is the most crucial points?omho88"Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)." ~Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64 "A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old." ~Sahih Muslim 8:3310 Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old." ~Abu Dawud 2:2116 "[...] The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket; I was one of the dearest people to him, a verse of the Quran was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed; I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him; and he was taken (that is, died) in his house when there was nobody with him but the angel and myself." ~ Al-Tabari, Vol. 7, pp. 6-7 There are six more separate sources (10 total) that all say the same thing. Married at six, made a woman at nine. And inspiration while in bed with a child? This is just getting even worse. The religious message was conveyed to Muhammad when he was having sex with a child? Christ...
you know that's not hadith, right? BossPersonI'm not that ignorant. The fact something like that would even be present within the tradition (whether scripture or commentary) gets me angry. This page on pedophilia citing tafsir after tafsir about Qur'an 65:4 isn't helping things.
[QUOTE="BossPerson"]you know that's not hadith, right? ZevianderI'm not that ignorant. The fact something like that would even be present within the tradition (whether scripture or commentary) gets me angry. This page on pedophilia citing tafsir after tafsir about Qur'an 65:4 isn't helping things.Well, nobody really knows how present it is in the tradition, since it was written by the former Ayatollah Khumeni (or how ever you spell the bastards name). It's not a part of the "Islamic cannon" if you will.
[QUOTE="omho88"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] Egypt is one country, are you honestly trying to use the standard of one country and apply it to an area from Morocco to Indonesia? really? in an area that large, there are huge differences, although even Egypt had its times when minorities were oppressed. and yes, traditionally there were restrictions on how , where and how much , minorities could build (that is why for instance, Jerusalem used to have alot of synagouges built underground, simply because by law, Jewish worship houses were not allowed to be higher than Mosques) now you could argue that things are better now, and in the case of Egypt, you may well be right. but the fact is , Christians are still leaving the Middle East in large numbers, not to mention the Jews who left 50-60 years ago for the most part..Darkman2007
So what? this proves that Islam can be good when put in good hands .
And every country has its ups and downs .... USA, ISRAEL .. all countries have its ups and downs ... discrimination can be everywhere.
You are arguing historical events at certain time from some unknown ppl and generalize it over a complete history of a major religion ... c'mon .... be fair once plzzz. I dun know what kind of restrictions are you talking about but in Egypt there are non .
Christians and Muslims are leaving the ME in large numbers not because of religious oppression, but because there are chances of better life in the west, more money, less POLITICAL oppression .. etc .... the Islamic brotherhood is in power rightnow and yet all those who have been abandoned for years coz of the libral Mubarak regime can return safely to Egypt .... many libral returned to Egypt after the revolution.
Jews were much more oppressed in Europe than the ME, Holocuat anyone!!!!! in fact many jews lived and had major business in Egypt b4 Israel .... then you know what happened ... I won't bother you thinking ... Israel happened !!!!
it also proves can be intolerant, life was not great, and applying what is happening now in one country, to the current situation or history of such a large area is just stupid, Egypt is not the centre of Islam (despite Al Azhar being a very important place) , nor is it the only Muslim country. the problem with that statement is that figures show otherwise, in both Iraq and Egypt, despite dictators being removed, you had an increase in the numbers of Christians leaving , politics is only part of it. as for the Jews, saying you were better than genocidal Europe is not saying much , thats like saying "Im smarter than the dumbest kid at school" , its not something to boast. and yes, then Israel happened.....so what? the Arabs used this opportunity to chase the Jews out of their country (or in some cases just expell them), and took their property, it shows me that the Jews were not protected , but were at the mercy of the Muslims, thats not a favourable situation.Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
[QUOTE="omho88"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] Egypt is one country, are you honestly trying to use the standard of one country and apply it to an area from Morocco to Indonesia? really? in an area that large, there are huge differences, although even Egypt had its times when minorities were oppressed. and yes, traditionally there were restrictions on how , where and how much , minorities could build (that is why for instance, Jerusalem used to have alot of synagouges built underground, simply because by law, Jewish worship houses were not allowed to be higher than Mosques) now you could argue that things are better now, and in the case of Egypt, you may well be right. but the fact is , Christians are still leaving the Middle East in large numbers, not to mention the Jews who left 50-60 years ago for the most part..Darkman2007
So what? this proves that Islam can be good when put in good hands .
And every country has its ups and downs .... USA, ISRAEL .. all countries have its ups and downs ... discrimination can be everywhere.
You are arguing historical events at certain time from some unknown ppl and generalize it over a complete history of a major religion ... c'mon .... be fair once plzzz. I dun know what kind of restrictions are you talking about but in Egypt there are non .
Christians and Muslims are leaving the ME in large numbers not because of religious oppression, but because there are chances of better life in the west, more money, less POLITICAL oppression .. etc .... the Islamic brotherhood is in power rightnow and yet all those who have been abandoned for years coz of the libral Mubarak regime can return safely to Egypt .... many libral returned to Egypt after the revolution.
Jews were much more oppressed in Europe than the ME, Holocuat anyone!!!!! in fact many jews lived and had major business in Egypt b4 Israel .... then you know what happened ... I won't bother you thinking ... Israel happened !!!!
it also proves can be intolerant, life was not great, and applying what is happening now in one country, to the current situation or history of such a large area is just stupid, Egypt is not the centre of Islam (despite Al Azhar being a very important place) , nor is it the only Muslim country. the problem with that statement is that figures show otherwise, in both Iraq and Egypt, despite dictators being removed, you had an increase in the numbers of Christians leaving , politics is only part of it. as for the Jews, saying you were better than genocidal Europe is not saying much , thats like saying "Im smarter than the dumbest kid at school" , its not something to boast. and yes, then Israel happened.....so what? the Arabs used this opportunity to chase the Jews out of their country (or in some cases just expell them), and took their property, it shows me that the Jews were not protected , but were at the mercy of the Muslims, thats not a favourable situation.Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
[QUOTE="omho88"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] Egypt is one country, are you honestly trying to use the standard of one country and apply it to an area from Morocco to Indonesia? really? in an area that large, there are huge differences, although even Egypt had its times when minorities were oppressed. and yes, traditionally there were restrictions on how , where and how much , minorities could build (that is why for instance, Jerusalem used to have alot of synagouges built underground, simply because by law, Jewish worship houses were not allowed to be higher than Mosques) now you could argue that things are better now, and in the case of Egypt, you may well be right. but the fact is , Christians are still leaving the Middle East in large numbers, not to mention the Jews who left 50-60 years ago for the most part..Darkman2007
So what? this proves that Islam can be good when put in good hands .
And every country has its ups and downs .... USA, ISRAEL .. all countries have its ups and downs ... discrimination can be everywhere.
You are arguing historical events at certain time from some unknown ppl and generalize it over a complete history of a major religion ... c'mon .... be fair once plzzz. I dun know what kind of restrictions are you talking about but in Egypt there are non .
Christians and Muslims are leaving the ME in large numbers not because of religious oppression, but because there are chances of better life in the west, more money, less POLITICAL oppression .. etc .... the Islamic brotherhood is in power rightnow and yet all those who have been abandoned for years coz of the libral Mubarak regime can return safely to Egypt .... many libral returned to Egypt after the revolution.
Jews were much more oppressed in Europe than the ME, Holocuat anyone!!!!! in fact many jews lived and had major business in Egypt b4 Israel .... then you know what happened ... I won't bother you thinking ... Israel happened !!!!
it also proves can be intolerant, life was not great, and applying what is happening now in one country, to the current situation or history of such a large area is just stupid, Egypt is not the centre of Islam (despite Al Azhar being a very important place) , nor is it the only Muslim country. the problem with that statement is that figures show otherwise, in both Iraq and Egypt, despite dictators being removed, you had an increase in the numbers of Christians leaving , politics is only part of it. as for the Jews, saying you were better than genocidal Europe is not saying much , thats like saying "Im smarter than the dumbest kid at school" , its not something to boast. and yes, then Israel happened.....so what? the Arabs used this opportunity to chase the Jews out of their country (or in some cases just expell them), and took their property, it shows me that the Jews were not protected , but were at the mercy of the Muslims, thats not a favourable situation.Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
"It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his male member between her thighs, and to kiss her." ~Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's, "Tahrir Al wasila," p. 241, issue number 12 For those who don't know, weaning occurs between 6 months and 3 years of age in human children. I think I'm going to be physically sick.Zevianderyou are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet?
and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.
you are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet?[QUOTE="Zeviander"]"It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his male member between her thighs, and to kiss her." ~Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's, "Tahrir Al wasila," p. 241, issue number 12 For those who don't know, weaning occurs between 6 months and 3 years of age in human children. I think I'm going to be physically sick.GrayF0X786
and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.
That "hater of Islam" was Khumeni
Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
omho88
Explain all these Islamic countries that hold the death sentence for blasphemy, apostasy, homosexuality and adultery.
The difference is that they aren't as good at catching people as the Germans were. If they could do it they definitely would.
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]you are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet?[QUOTE="Zeviander"]"It is not illegal for an adult male to 'thigh' or enjoy a young girl who is still in the age of weaning; meaning to place his male member between her thighs, and to kiss her." ~Ayatu Allah Al Khumaini's, "Tahrir Al wasila," p. 241, issue number 12 For those who don't know, weaning occurs between 6 months and 3 years of age in human children. I think I'm going to be physically sick.BossPerson
and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.
That "hater of Islam" was Khumeni i should have used the word enemies who are against the prophet and his teachings.[QUOTE="omho88"]I find it difficult to respond to evrything in the article .... understanding the verse in english is also troublesome for me ... can you choose what is the most crucial points?Zeviander"Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)." ~Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64 "A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old." ~Sahih Muslim 8:3310 Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old." ~Abu Dawud 2:2116 "[...] The angel brought down my likeness; the Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine; he married me when I was a virgin, no other man having shared me with him; inspiration came to him when he and I were in a single blanket; I was one of the dearest people to him, a verse of the Quran was revealed concerning me when the community was almost destroyed; I saw Gabriel when none of his other wives saw him; and he was taken (that is, died) in his house when there was nobody with him but the angel and myself." ~ Al-Tabari, Vol. 7, pp. 6-7 There are six more separate sources (10 total) that all say the same thing. Married at six, made a woman at nine. And inspiration while in bed with a child? This is just getting even worse. The religious message was conveyed to Muhammad when he was having sex with a child? Christ... Do you know how old the girls are when they usually get married in the middle east 1400 years ago?
you are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet? and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.GrayF0X786Put those goggles on tighter, you might actually realize the problem I see with Islam! Your prophet was a disgusting human being, and the more I read, the more I am abhorred to think I ever considered becoming a Muslim. I challenge you to explain away everything that I posted. Including the 10 sources saying Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad, and 9 when he consummated the marriage. It would help me sleep at night knowing that over a billion and a half people accept this as "okay" for a religious founder to do.
That "hater of Islam" was Khumeni i should have used the word enemies who are against the prophet and his teachings.Khumeni was against the prophet? lol ok inb4 shia[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] you are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet?
and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.
GrayF0X786
[QUOTE="omho88"]
Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
toast_burner
Explain all these Islamic countries that hold the death sentence for blasphemy, apostasy, homosexuality and adultery.
The difference is that they aren't as good at catching people as the Germans were. If they could do it they definitely would.
have you even been to an "islamic country" or have you been living under a bubble your whole life.[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] you are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet? and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.ZevianderPut those goggles on tighter, you might actually realize the problem I see with Islam! Your prophet was a disgusting human being, and the more I read, the more I am abhorred to think I ever considered becoming a Muslim. I challenge you to explain away everything that I posted. Including the 10 sources saying Aisha was 6 when she married Muhammad, and 9 when he consummated the marriage. It would help me sleep at night knowing that over a billion and a half people accept this as "okay" for a religious founder to do.
To be fair that is a weak argument, at the time it was the social norm all over the world and in some places (U.S. included) the legal sex age was very low indeed until recently.
Its not a good one to use.
That "hater of Islam" was Khumeni i should have used the word enemies who are against the prophet and his teachings.Khumeni was against the prophet? lol ok inb4 shia[QUOTE="BossPerson"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] you are pathetic beyond belief. i don't blame you much since you come from a side of the world where pedophilia is an actual problem, so far to the point you have shows called "Catch the Predator", but relating this bullsh!t to our prophet?
and this Tahrir Al wasila? its not even an actual Hadith, just another one of the craps the haters of islam made recently to demoralize our prophet.
GrayF0X786
[QUOTE="Neoklondiak"][QUOTE="Zeviander"] From what did you convert? And how did you consciously choose to adhere to the tenets of such a morally-backward, woman-hating, equality-denying faith? FrostyPhantasm
Well there's this hot Iranian girl...
If you know what I mean.
So you want to be able to beat her and get away with it?No. I want to be able to f uck her without her father killing me. :(
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]i should have used the word enemies who are against the prophet and his teachings.Khumeni was against the prophet? lol ok inb4 shia he was a Shia, who made up alot of crap.[QUOTE="BossPerson"]That "hater of Islam" was Khumeni BossPerson
So you want to be able to beat her and get away with it?[QUOTE="FrostyPhantasm"][QUOTE="Neoklondiak"]
Well there's this hot Iranian girl...
If you know what I mean.
Neoklondiak
No. I want to be able to f uck her without her father killing me. :(
All three of us are wandering dangerously close to what is considered hate speech in Canada. We better watch out.
[QUOTE="omho88"]Do you know how old the girls are when they usually get married in the middle east 1400 years ago?ZevianderSure do. Way too young. Doesn't excuse Muhammad's actions, nor his being revered as a moral authority today. *yawn*
it also proves can be intolerant, life was not great, and applying what is happening now in one country, to the current situation or history of such a large area is just stupid, Egypt is not the centre of Islam (despite Al Azhar being a very important place) , nor is it the only Muslim country. the problem with that statement is that figures show otherwise, in both Iraq and Egypt, despite dictators being removed, you had an increase in the numbers of Christians leaving , politics is only part of it. as for the Jews, saying you were better than genocidal Europe is not saying much , thats like saying "Im smarter than the dumbest kid at school" , its not something to boast. and yes, then Israel happened.....so what? the Arabs used this opportunity to chase the Jews out of their country (or in some cases just expell them), and took their property, it shows me that the Jews were not protected , but were at the mercy of the Muslims, thats not a favourable situation.[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="omho88"]
So what? this proves that Islam can be good when put in good hands .
And every country has its ups and downs .... USA, ISRAEL .. all countries have its ups and downs ... discrimination can be everywhere.
You are arguing historical events at certain time from some unknown ppl and generalize it over a complete history of a major religion ... c'mon .... be fair once plzzz. I dun know what kind of restrictions are you talking about but in Egypt there are non .
Christians and Muslims are leaving the ME in large numbers not because of religious oppression, but because there are chances of better life in the west, more money, less POLITICAL oppression .. etc .... the Islamic brotherhood is in power rightnow and yet all those who have been abandoned for years coz of the libral Mubarak regime can return safely to Egypt .... many libral returned to Egypt after the revolution.
Jews were much more oppressed in Europe than the ME, Holocuat anyone!!!!! in fact many jews lived and had major business in Egypt b4 Israel .... then you know what happened ... I won't bother you thinking ... Israel happened !!!!
omho88
Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
people are people, but in alot of cases those people claim to represent that religion, in some cases, those people happen to be influential religious figures, so there are people in that religon who are involved in it, wheter its right or wrong. as for sources http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/8973118/How-can-we-remain-silent-while-Christians-are-being-persecuted.html http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-exodus-the-changing-map-of-the-middle-east-2116463.html those are two sources (and Im not even a fan of Robert Fisk , its odd to me he lives in Lebanon for 30 years, yet he doesn't know Arabic) and again , saying youre better than Europe is not saying much , I could say that before the Holocaust, Europe treated its Jews better than the MIddle East did, but thats not the whole story , its not as though there are only 2 extremes, and there was persecution and pogroms , both before and after Israel, and this includes in EgyptSo you want to be able to beat her and get away with it?[QUOTE="FrostyPhantasm"][QUOTE="Neoklondiak"]
Well there's this hot Iranian girl...
If you know what I mean.
Neoklondiak
No. I want to be able to f uck her without her father killing me. :(
if thats your sole intention then you will fail big time.[QUOTE="Neoklondiak"]
[QUOTE="FrostyPhantasm"] So you want to be able to beat her and get away with it?GrayF0X786
No. I want to be able to f uck her without her father killing me. :(
if thats your sole intention then you will fail big time.Never heard of a one night stand or friends with benefits?[QUOTE="omho88"]
Islam works, accept it ... yeah, some ppl could justify bad things in the name of it, but that goes for other religions too, science itslef can be bad, it can make bomb, however it can cure cancer, ppl are just stupid.
Link these figures please that says there is a systemic move towards leaving these countries coz of religious oppression , otherwise you are a hater/liar ?!
Again we didn't kill 6 million jews like Europe .... accept it ... we weren't that merciless even in ur wildest dreams .... I won't talk about Israel, and I dun agree with thw deportation of the jews that happened at that time ... yet it wasn't really a religious thing .... it was more of a thief stole my friend so I am punishing the theif's friends, which is ironically against islam and there is a Quran verse regarding this.
toast_burner
Explain all these Islamic countries that hold the death sentence for blasphemy, apostasy, homosexuality and adultery.
The difference is that they aren't as good at catching people as the Germans were. If they could do it they definitely would.
Why do I have to? my islamic country doesn't do it. they are wrong ... happy now :wink:
Yeah, I agree, german are awesome, they should have done it more, since they are so good at it :? !!!!! Unless jews are super clever at covering themselves among ppl in the ME at that time !!!
if thats your sole intention then you will fail big time.Never heard of a one night stand or friends with benefits?[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]
[QUOTE="Neoklondiak"]
No. I want to be able to f uck her without her father killing me. :(
toast_burner
If we do that and someone finds out then we're probably both dead.
No, I have to marry her. And I have to be muslim. So as salamu alaykum.
Disclaimer: This whole thing is a figment of my imagination. There is no hot Iranian girl, no father, and my conversion to Islam could be described best as a fabrication.
Never heard of a one night stand or friends with benefits?[QUOTE="toast_burner"]
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] if thats your sole intention then you will fail big time.
Neoklondiak
If we do that and someone finds out then we're probably both dead.
Reading this makes me proud to be British. We're all such sluts :Pif thats your sole intention then you will fail big time.Never heard of a one night stand or friends with benefits? yeah you can find them running wild in the jungles or locked up in Zoo's, we call them animals or dogs, your point?[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]
[QUOTE="Neoklondiak"]
No. I want to be able to f uck her without her father killing me. :(
toast_burner
[QUOTE="Neoklondiak"]
[QUOTE="toast_burner"]Never heard of a one night stand or friends with benefits?
toast_burner
If we do that and someone finds out then we're probably both dead.
Reading this makes me proud to be British. We're all such sluts :PActually prefer the term 'Whores'We like payment upfront
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] *yawn*ZevianderCompelling counter-argument!
If you want to command legions of demons in hell you'd better start getting some real-world cred. Right now the Devil's going to look at your resume and be like "lol, salt mines for you".
Never heard of a one night stand or friends with benefits? yeah you can find them running wild in the jungles or locked up in Zoo's, we call them animals or dogs, your point?[QUOTE="toast_burner"]
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] if thats your sole intention then you will fail big time.
GrayF0X786
lol, you are really going for it today. So if there is no sex outside marrage in islam how come rapes occur and why are the victims blamed?
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