How did Jesus dying save us from our sins?

[QUOTE="Devosion"]Empirical evidence. From jerusualem, to egypt, to even remote accounts in what is india today, the man known as Jesus has been accounted for in a variety of sources religious and non-religious oriented.Herrick

Such as...?  

The Bible, the Nag Hammadi library, the Pistis Sophia, F. Mohammed's Jami-ut-tuwarik (an account of a royal invitation to Christ by the kingdom of Nisibis), the Apocrypha, and the Book of Enoch to name a few.

Neither god nor man had to die to save me from anything i've ever done. No one in the past, present, or future will ever have to take responsibility for my own action or inaction, Jesus included.Devosion

Matthew 3:23- For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

It is your choice to belive what you will though, which further proves the free will thing mentioned above.

Why do you people have to continuously create religious topics. Its freakin annoying. Just quit it. crimsoni

if you don't like them, don't post in them and ignore them.  no sense complaining about them when we have the right to discuss these things.

[QUOTE="Atrus"][QUOTE="psr388"]

This will be fun...

1. Evolution is still a theory. There is no bedrock evidence.

2. God has placed morality in all men. Anyway, she knew God told her not to eat it: she knowingly chose to disobey God.

3. Jesus has God's nature, so he can't sin. His is God in human form.

4. Sin is passed from the soul. The soul cannot be examined by man. I don't think you want to disprove the existence of the soul.

5. God sacrificed Himself so that man wouldn't have to die. This isn't absurd; it's merciful.

6. Historians at the time of Christ recorded his existence. Thousands interacted with him throughout his earthly life. The body of Christ was never found.

psr388

1. Evolution is a fact, and no less a fact than atoms, gravity, or plate tectonics.

2. Eve had no idea of what was good or evil, as such she had no idea that disobeying god was a good or evil thing to do. Prior to such knowledge she cannot be held culpable of such at thing.

3. Except his human form was just a shell that had no relationship to humans whatsoever. He was supposed to be God in human form, but without Original Sin, he surely didn't share in full humanity.

4. It's not up to me to disprove the soul, its up to you to prove one exists in the first place.

5. It's absurd for an omni-being to declare a sacrifice when he could have easily revoked it by merely thinking about it and placing the knowledge of the act in every human. Human-God sacrifice wasn't needed, and wouldn't have been chosen from an omni-benevolant being.

6. False. There are no contemporaries who record Jesus' existence. The earliest records were written well after the supposed date of Jesus, like Josephus, and even that was based on heresay and rumour.

1. It's not called a theory for nothing. Show me an animal that is the go between for two different types. Evolution has not been viewed by man. If you think you can't believe in Christ because you did not see him, you can't believe in evolution either.

2. Genesis 3:3- but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will surely die." Sounds like a warning of punishment to me.

3. Matthew 4 is the temptation of Jesus. To be able to be tempted you must be able to sin. Christ must have been able to sin, yet the nature of God within him prevented himself from falling into sin.

4. You can neither prove nor disprove this, yet the effects of it are obvious, such as emotions, spirituality, individuality, ect.

5. Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Since man sinned, he is unable to be accepted in God's glory and must separate himself from man. Yet God still loved man enough that he sacrificed himself so that man could once again be seen as good in his eyes and live with him for eternity.

6. Christ was executed as a Roman criminal. There were records of this.

The Roman historian Tacitus mentioned him near the time of his life.

The historian Thallus refers to Christ.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers.

Even false books such as the Gnostic Gospels refer to Jesus.

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

It is impossible to deny his existence.

 Impressive knowledge, brother.  I wish I was that educated.  Really makes you think, doesn't it.  :shock:  

[QUOTE="psr388"][QUOTE="dog64"][QUOTE="psr388"]

3. Jesus has God's nature, so he can't sin. His is God in human form.

5. God sacrificed Himself so that man wouldn't have to die. This isn't absurd; it's merciful.
dog64

Question. Hebrews 5:7 says:

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. (NIV)

So, if Jesus was God in human form, who is the "one who could save him"? If he really was God in human form, there was no one he could pray to as described in this verse.

God exists in three forms simultaneously: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit hadn't come to earth yet, I assume Christ prayed to the Father.

In other words, the Trinity. Well, I still don't see how God can be three forms at once. If Jesus was God himself and he came to earth, where were the other two parts of him? The Trinity sort of gives the picture that God has three heads. If this is true, Jesus was certainly not God, since three heads are on one body and Jesus of course, was one body. In order for this to all be true, God would either have to be three individuals or one person with three heads and he magically split up and came to earth. Sounds funny to me. But that's me.

You're right. This the most difficult aspect about God to understand.

It is supported by scripture, though.

Genesis has God use the term "we."

Christ said he was God and the son of God.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as God, but it is obviously seperate from Christ.

The list goes on...

Why do most historians believe that Jesus really existed then? I'm an atheist by the way.

Herrick

Because if we narrow our definition of who exists based on available information, a few other people would also not exist. Take Democritus, the founder of atomism whose works were destroyed by zealots. He is only known to exist through other references to him, namely other atomists.

What is different between Jesus and a man like Democritus, is that the people making references to Jesus are not contemporaries.  

[QUOTE="crimsoni"]Why do you people have to continuously create religious topics. Its freakin annoying. Just quit it. jackelhunter

if you don't like them, don't post in them and ignore them.  no sense complaining about them when we have the right to discuss these things.

[QUOTE="jackelhunter"]

[QUOTE="crimsoni"]Why do you people have to continuously create religious topics. Its freakin annoying. Just quit it. crimsoni

if you don't like them, don't post in them and ignore them.  no sense complaining about them when we have the right to discuss these things.

like i said before, you can't really do anything about it.  when you think about it OT always has similar threads over and over, but who cares?  you don't have to look at them.  I feel that this is an important matter so I choose to discuss it.

In fact, the majority of mankind believes Jesus existed. Many religions believe he existed. They just argue if he was the Messiah, the son of God, ect.

Now, although references to Jesus Christ by early secular historians are meager, such references do exist. Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote: "The name Christian is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius." Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ. In addition, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James, whom he identified as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."

The New Encyclopedia Britannica also says: "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."

So, there is documentation that Jesus existed. The question is who he was.

dog64

This is untrue. No proof of Jesus' existence has ever been found, if you or anyone else believes you've found some you'll become famous by pointing it out. All 1st and 2nd century details on Jesus are from recountings of Jews and 2nd century Christians. No investigations were done so by these people.

What's happening here is people are taking references to the Christian movement as an indication that Jesus exists, which itself is not proof. The religion of John Frum does not mean that John Frum exists.

Because if we narrow our definition of who exists based on available information, a few other people would also not exist. Take Democritus, the founder of atomism whose works were destroyed by zealots. He is only known to exist through other references to him, namely other atomists.

What is different between Jesus and a man like Democritus, is that the people making references to Jesus are not contemporaries.

Atrus

Sorry. I misread that post. I did not see that you were responding to this: Historians at the time of Christ recorded his existence. 

[QUOTE="dog64"]

In fact, the majority of mankind believes Jesus existed. Many religions believe he existed. They just argue if he was the Messiah, the son of God, ect.

Now, although references to Jesus Christ by early secular historians are meager, such references do exist. Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote: "The name Christian is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius." Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ. In addition, Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James, whom he identified as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."

The New Encyclopedia Britannica also says: "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."

So, there is documentation that Jesus existed. The question is who he was.

Atrus

This is untrue. No proof of Jesus' existence has everbeen found, if you or anyone else believes you've found some you'll become famous by pointing it out. All 1st and 2nd century details on Jesus are from recountings of Jews and 2nd century Christians. No investigations were done so by these people.

What's happening here is people are taking references to the Christian movement as an indication that Jesus exists, which itself is not proof. The religion of John Frum does not mean that John Frum exists.

If what you say is true, there is no evidence that anyone from history existed...

that's what i would like to know. how did jesus save me from my sins when he died like 2000 years before i was born?IsYouSerious

If God is all-knowing as the Bible says, then he would know about your sins before you commit them. Because of this, Christ was able to die for your sins before you were born. The single act of Christ's sacrifice was enough to save all men for every sin they would commit.

1. It's not called a theory for nothing. Show me an animal that is the go between for two different types. Evolution has not been viewed by man. If you think you can't believe in Christ because you did not see him, you can't believe in evolution either.

2. Genesis 3:3- but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will surely die." Sounds like a warning of punishment to me.

3. Matthew 4 is the temptation of Jesus. To be able to be tempted you must be able to sin. Christ must have been able to sin, yet the nature of God within him prevented himself from falling into sin.

4. You can neither prove nor disprove this, yet the effects of it are obvious, such as emotions, spirituality, individuality, ect.

5. Romans 3:23- For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Since man sinned, he is unable to be accepted in God's glory and must separate himself from man. Yet God still loved man enough that he sacrificed himself so that man could once again be seen as good in his eyes and live with him for eternity.

6. Christ was executed as a Roman criminal. There were records of this.

The Roman historian Tacitus mentioned him near the time of his life.

The historian Thallus refers to Christ.

The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover.

Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was crucified for them.

Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of his followers.

Even false books such as the Gnostic Gospels refer to Jesus.

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

It is impossible to deny his existence.

psr388

1. It is a scientific theory, just like Gravity, the periodic table of elements, atoms, and plate tectonics. Evolution is a fact, things evolve. The theory is based on how it evolves. You are incorrect, and nearly all academic institutions will support evolution as a fact.

The only people who fail to realize this are Creationists who want to undermine the education system in their country by indoctrinating them with unfounded nonsense.

2. To a being without the knowledge of good and evil, no action can be deemed as right or wrong. How can she tell that a warning was good for her or that eating the fruit was bad?

3. Matthew contains a lot of folklore, mostly to villianize Jews and spur anti-semitism. How do we know the last temptation of Jesus is even real? Remember the Gospels aren't written by the people with the names given to them. This is why they are called the Gospels 'according to' Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The names were given by the Church.

4. Straw man argument. Emotions, Spirituality and Individuality are byproducts of your brain. In fact, VS Ramachandran is an eminant neuroscientist whose research has involved the understanding of religiosity and how in some cases religiosity has a direct relationship with certain types of seizures. Neuroscience is one of the areas that will contribute to the understanding of the origins of the ideas of the soul, religiosity, emotion and even individuality, and once that happens be able to show how we can manipulate it and show how its just another brain function.

5. Except that the "sacrifice" resulted in no loss.

6. Uh... look at your dates. Tacitus was born decades after Jesus and the others like Thallus were far later. There is no proof of Jesus' existence, and if you really believe there is one it'll be a historic and theological find. You'll be one of the most famous Christians to have lived, for being the one to prove he lived.

All information we have is based on heresay from Jews in the early century and Christians in the 2nd. Constantine was one of the first to try to form an investigation into Jesus and that was near the end of the 3rd century. 

[QUOTE="Atrus"]

This is untrue. No proof of Jesus' existence has everbeen found, if you or anyone else believes you've found some you'll become famous by pointing it out. All 1st and 2nd century details on Jesus are from recountings of Jews and 2nd century Christians. No investigations were done so by these people.

What's happening here is people are taking references to the Christian movement as an indication that Jesus exists, which itself is not proof. The religion of John Frum does not mean that John Frum exists.

psr388

If what you say is true, there is no evidence that anyone from history existed...

How so?

You know how in the Old Testament God required a sacrifise to forgive sins? Well, Jesus, who was a perfect human and a perfect God, was the perfect sacrifice. So, God now forgives anybody that calls on Jesus to save them.Silver_Dragon17

Making Christians some of the most bigoted individuals (sexism, homophobia, racism), without the feeling of consequence!

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

You know how in the Old Testament God required a sacrifise to forgive sins? Well, Jesus, who was a perfect human and a perfect God, was the perfect sacrifice. So, God now forgives anybody that calls on Jesus to save them.Lilac_Benjie

Making Christians some of the most bigoted individuals (sexism, homophobia, racism), without the feeling of consequence!

The epitome of hipocracy. 

[QUOTE="Silver_Dragon17"]

You know how in the Old Testament God required a sacrifise to forgive sins? Well, Jesus, who was a perfect human and a perfect God, was the perfect sacrifice. So, God now forgives anybody that calls on Jesus to save them.Lilac_Benjie

Making Christians some of the most bigoted individuals (sexism, homophobia, racism), without the feeling of consequence!

 That's a pretty general statement.  I'm Christian and I'm none of those things.

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

psr388

They died because they really believed in it. They didn't think it was a lie. Look at suicide bombers for example. They truely believe in martyrdom, but that doesn't mean they're really going to get 72 virgins for it.  

The Bible, the Nag Hammadi library, the Pistis Sophia, F. Mohammed's Jami-ut-tuwarik (an account of a royal invitation to Christ by the kingdom of Nisibis), the Apocrypha, and the Book of Enoch to name a few.

Devosion

You're listing religious writings as "empirical" evidence?

[QUOTE="psr388"]

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

Herrick

They died because they really believed in it. They didn't think it was a lie. Look at suicide bombers for example. They truely believe in martyrdom, but that doesn't mean they're really going to get 72 virgins for it.  

so your denying what people saw with their own two eyes?  honestly, how can you prove that anyone from those times existed?

[QUOTE="psr388"]

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

Herrick

They died because they really believed in it. They didn't think it was a lie. Look at suicide bombers for example. They truely believe in martyrdom, but that doesn't mean they're really going to get 72 virgins for it.

Well, the thing about it is that I don't expect you to understand. I've seen thinks with my eyes and heard things with my ears, and felt things in my heart that make me more convinced of the presence of God in my life than just about anything else. Thus, I can't say anything to you to show you why I believe what I do. But on the flip side, there is nothing you could possibly do to unfound me in my faith. 

And you still think that you are in the light while the those who believe in God are in the dark. Sad.

[QUOTE="Herrick"][QUOTE="psr388"]

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

elmo90

They died because they really believed in it. They didn't think it was a lie. Look at suicide bombers for example. They truely believe in martyrdom, but that doesn't mean they're really going to get 72 virgins for it.

Well, the thing about it is that I don't expect you to understand. I've seen thinks with my eyes and heard things with my ears, and felt things in my heart that make me more convinced of the presence of God in my life than just about anything else. Thus, I can't say anything to you to show you why I believe what I do. But on the flip side, there is nothing you could possibly do to unfound me in my faith.

And you still think that you are in the light while the those who believe in God are in the dark. Sad.

I agree.  I may have a dark, twisted sense of humor.  I watch south park and I draw shocking comics, but if I had to die for god, I would.

[QUOTE="elmo90"][QUOTE="Herrick"][QUOTE="psr388"]

Why would his followers spread some false message and die for nothing? The Apostles got nothing materially from spreading the gospels. Would you die for a lie?

-Jammo-

They died because they really believed in it. They didn't think it was a lie. Look at suicide bombers for example. They truely believe in martyrdom, but that doesn't mean they're really going to get 72 virgins for it.

Well, the thing about it is that I don't expect you to understand. I've seen thinks with my eyes and heard things with my ears, and felt things in my heart that make me more convinced of the presence of God in my life than just about anything else. Thus, I can't say anything to you to show you why I believe what I do. But on the flip side, there is nothing you could possibly do to unfound me in my faith.

And you still think that you are in the light while the those who believe in God are in the dark. Sad.

I agree.  I may have a dark, twisted sense of humor.  I watch south park and I draw shocking comics, but if I had to die for god, I would.

i agree.

so your denying what people saw with their own two eyes? honestly, how can you prove that anyone from those times existed?

jackelhunter

What exactly are you referring to?

I would die for the same of Christ, any day. Guess I really believe it, eh?elmo90

Indeed.

And you still think that you are in the light while the those who believe in God are in the dark.elmo90

As for me thinking theists are "in the dark" it really depends on what their life is like.

Sad.elmo90

What's sad, mang?

Wait god requires sacrifices?  Geez this just proves christianity was based on old greek gods.ZackMorris-

He doesn't require sacrifices. The price for one sin is death, cuz sins are evil actions. Jesus was the perfect human, God accepted his sinless life as paying the price for all of humanities sins.

no idea, but i stay away so i don't get flamed. However i do believe if there was a guy named Jesus, he was just someone like Gandhi n such that he was trying to pass a good message to the world, humans being the POS that they are just see him as a prophet because there's no other explanation for a selfless compassionate soul :roll:X360PS3AMD05

I agree.

I also doubt that he knew he was going to die. 

[QUOTE="dainjah1010"]

So the story goes... God being the all-knowing, all-powerful being he is creates Adam and Eve knowing full well they would disobey him and cause original sin thus screwing all the humans that would come after. Apparently, some time later he wants to forgive humans for doing what he already knew they would do... but he can't just forgive us, he has to make a spectacle of it. So he sends his son, which also happens to be him, down to earth to be tortured; because violence is the only way to get your point across apparently.

Why God couldn't just forgive humans for doing exactly what he knew they would do in the first place is beyond any amount of reasoning... or better yet he could just have prevented original sin. But then you would actually have to buy into that whole garden of eden crap.

psr388

Why God allowed man to sin:

God wanted man to love him of his own volition. In order to do that, God gave man free will to choose either to love Him and obey Him or not. God's love would be superficial and selfish if He forced man to love Him.

Also, God promised to redeem man when man fell.

Genesis 3:15- "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

For more information about that: http://www.bibleed.com/bibleteachings/jesusandthepromises/promiseineden.asp

How can a loving god knowingly allow his most special creation to sin thereby condemning billions of people who had nothing to do with it to eternal torture? Is it just Christians whom get saved from an eternal lake of fire set up by your loving god? What about all the people who didn't grow up in the Christan west and haven't been brainwas... err taught about the Lord and Savior? Are they condemned just because they were brought up in a different region with different customs and religions?

Not only that but it seems you need to literally believe in Genesis for any of this to  even be plausible. And believing in that is actually pretty sad in a developed nation where we have science to explain things like the age of the earth, diversification of species, and even how planets form.  

Check out my topic. It disproves God.ZackMorris-

The only way to disprove God is to die and then after seeing what happens, resurrect yourself. Good luck with that. 

[QUOTE="ZackMorris-"]Wait god requires sacrifices? Geez this just proves christianity was based on old greek gods.billnye69

He doesn't require sacrifices. The price for one sin is death, cuz sins are evil actions. Jesus was the perfect human, God accepted his sinless life as paying the price for all of humanities sins.

So he gives us free will, but when we use it we are punished.  That doesn't make sense,

Why give free will then punish us for eternity? 

[QUOTE="billnye69"]

[QUOTE="ZackMorris-"]Wait god requires sacrifices? Geez this just proves christianity was based on old greek gods.ZackMorris-

He doesn't require sacrifices. The price for one sin is death, cuz sins are evil actions. Jesus was the perfect human, God accepted his sinless life as paying the price for all of humanities sins.

So he gives us free will, but when we use it we are punished.  That doesn't make sense,

Why give free will then punish us for eternity? 

God didn't give us free will

Ah. Religion based debates on the internet.

Too many of them. I never hear so many comments frothing with inaccuracy than on the internet.

No offense intended I just tend to leave them alone. Most people here seem pretty educated and nice. I just live by my faith and treat others how they like to be treated and just do what the bible says, and it had made me a better person.

Even if you don't believe in the stories there are some wonderful meanings in there.

-Jammo-

your lief is liek teh ultimate suxxors how can yuo keep beleving in religion it kill so many pppl!!!1!1one

You're right. This the most difficult aspect about God to understand.

It is supported by scripture, though.

Genesis has God use the term "we."

Christ said he was God and the son of God.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as God, but it is obviously seperate from Christ.

The list goes on...

psr388

"We" can be described as two persons. In this case, the bible could of been referring to God and Jesus as two seperate individuals.

What verse says that Jesus was God ? The bible says Jesus is God's son and God is the father, but to my knowledge the bible never comes out and says that Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is seperate from Christ even though the trinity says that all three are one? This is confusing.

God offers a free way to escape from eternal damnation and to live for eternity in paradise.

That really sounds sadistic and selfish.

psr388

...instead of just putting everyone in paradise in the first place.

read psr's posts, that would be pretty helpful. man, I hate how the media and some of the crazier Christians only talk about hell and all of that. the Bible is not about that, you cannot judge the entire book by just a few verses, you need to take in the book as a whole. people need to stop judging things if they do not know all of the facts first.

jackelhunter

Media?  I'm not talking about the media at all.  How about the times when the incredibly compassionate Biblical God tests people's faith (why? - egomaniac) by making their life a living hell?  For example, by killing their entire family and / or giving them diseases...  Yeah, that sounds pretty nice.

Take the Bible as a whole you say?  All that does is illustrate its various contradictions, not the least of which is how God changes his rules between the Old and New Testaments.

This will be fun...

1. Evolution is still a theory. There is no bedrock evidence.

psr388

LOL.  No, all I can say about this is, "LOL."  If the current amount of evidence can't convince you, then nothing could.  That is what happens though, I guess, when people are indoctrinated / brainwashed with repetitive nonsense on a weekly basis.

No, really, what would it take?  For you to live a million years so that you could witness it firsthand in actual living creatures? 

he didn't save us from our sins.

Jesus was a jewish rabbi who though he was the descendant of King david, and as such, the rightful king of the Jewish people.

the historical Jesus NEVER proclaimed to be the son of God;

The word Messiah doesn't mean that he's the son of God either. the Jewish kings were always called Messiahs (King David for example).

Saint Paul never even knew Jesus...

Of course there isn't a tomb of Jesus...Crucifixion "victims" (in other words, violent criminals and revolutionaries) weren't buried, but left to rot. 

The historical Jesus was probably somewhat more of a violent man, who probably murdered one or several Roman Citizens (you wouldn't be crucified if you didn't kill Romans). In the end, he got crucified for his crimes and rotted away.

Only in the insane and sickly imagination of "Saint" Paul, was he declared son of God...

Anyway, that's what I think about it;

And since I've proclaimed it out loud and God hasn't yet smitten me like he supposedly smote all the unbelievers (according to the bible), I tend to assume I'm right :-) 

[QUOTE="psr388"]

You're right. This the most difficult aspect about God to understand.

It is supported by scripture, though.

Genesis has God use the term "we."

Christ said he was God and the son of God.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as God, but it is obviously seperate from Christ.

The list goes on...

dog64

"We" can be described as two persons. In this case, the bible could of been referring to God and Jesus as two seperate individuals.

What verse says that Jesus was God ? The bible says Jesus is God's son and God is the father, but to my knowledge the bible never comes out and says that Jesus is God.

The Holy Spirit is seperate from Christ even though the trinity says that all three are one? This is confusing.

Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."1

"Immanuel" literally means: "God with us." See also Matthew 1:23; Jesus was "God with us."

Isaiah 9:6: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

John 8:58-59: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!' At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

This is a powerful double claim from Jesus: first, that He pre-existed His human birth and was actually alive and present (as God) before Abraham; second, that His title was "I am" -- which was the same title used for Jehovah God in Exodus 3:14.

John 10:30-33: "'I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' 'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.'"

John 20:27-29: "Then He said to Thomas, 'Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.' Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!' Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'"

Colossians 1:15-16; 2:9: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. . . . For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. . ."

The part with the Holy Spirit I may have worded badly. He is not separate as in unattached, but for some reason God chose to have three different, simultaneous form so that he could interact with man on different levels. The Father relates to man as a Father would, obviously, and provides reconciliation. The Son allows man to relate to man and provides salvation. The Spirit is a constant companion to the believer and provides comfort and introduction.

Although the word "Trinity" is never mentioned, there is evidence from scripture that the three exist as God.

Acts 2:33  (referring to Jesus) Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the
promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Acts 12:4-6- There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.

The Holy Spirit must be part of that if he is reffered to as God. http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/Names.of.the.Spirit.html

He (the Holy Spirit) is given names that only God could be given, and he is given attributes that only God could have.

We can't have multiple Gods. Even the Ten Commandments say that "You Shall have no other gods before me." If God is infinite as the Bible says, other gods would limit him. Because of that, God has to be one, but with three forms. I know that things like this do not necessarily make sense to men, but if God is supposed to be a higher being than man, is it possible to understand everything about him?

I don't see why either, but it makes a hell of a story. :)

[QUOTE="billnye69"]

[QUOTE="ZackMorris-"]Wait god requires sacrifices? Geez this just proves christianity was based on old greek gods.ZackMorris-

He doesn't require sacrifices. The price for one sin is death, cuz sins are evil actions. Jesus was the perfect human, God accepted his sinless life as paying the price for all of humanities sins.

So he gives us free will, but when we use it we are punished.  That doesn't make sense,

Why give free will then punish us for eternity? 

God dont punish you because of free will, what is religion (if you have one) that your God punish you for being free?

In christianity, GOD will give you a choice, do His will and you will be rewarded, do evil and you will be punish, its not being free perse.

1. It's not called a theory for nothing. Show me an animal that is the go between for two different types.

psr388

Acanthostega

Done.